Vos Iz Neias had a short small news piece saying that Obama has decided to scrap the jacket wearing practice of the President before him. As always the comments are hilarious and sad and pathetic. One of the comments basically says that Obama has no respect for the Presidential position and we are likely to see him messing with the constitution next – oy vey.
I do understand this addiction to poke fun at every little thing Obama does, after all if you hate someone so much you might as well bust his balls whenever you have the chance, and what better way to do it then when that person violates something that you believe in.
I kind of expected this but by removing his jacket he struck a deep cord within frummiedom – he violated a dress code. I have seen what happens when you violate dress codes, shit in my yeshiva you got fined for not wearing your jacket to davening or wearing jeans or wearing your baseball hat backwards (that was way too American) Imagine if a charedi Rabbi decided to just wear his shirt, I can imagine all the uproar in the readers write section of Yated and Yeshiva World News comments approaching violent proportions as people mulled about what a threat this jacketless person was causing to the frum community.
Thank God for Obama pissing the frummies off its providing loads of material.
As long as he and his wife keeps the rest of their clothes on in public…
I heard the funniest black preacher on how people think Michelle Obama is so hot, he said she looked like “King Kong’s baby sister”.
Check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If9KopxdA-I
Funny, in the American culture removing one’s jacket and getting down to shirtsleeves is usually the very image of hard work.
I’d have thought people would *like* the idea of their president getting down to business and getting things done. ..
With no jacket; it means that he is not so frum and he is leaning towards the left. For frummies who dont know anything about politics, this is their first time realizing Obama is a left wing supporter.
Can you imagine him in four years? A bling-bling, tennis shoes, baseball hat turned sideways and an Afro.
He is not dropping the dress code. He is just shifting to one more appropriate to his indigenous culture, shedding the imposition of dominant majority class on the freedom of expression of the people whose voice shall now be heard! Amen!
It may be a question in halacha as well (no kidding..!)
There’s an issue in seforim (too vague now!), concerning what takes precedence in tefilla – between a hat OR a jacket (in a theoretical choice of only one).
One side says, as one would stand before a human king; which can be translated as before a President, one may be bareheaded – but wears a jacket for respect.
Maybe NOW, we won’t have to – as he doesn’t himself..?!
Brooklynniter which seforim?
For some reason I think the hat and jacket thing was only because of the extreme cold temperatures people in Europe had to endure and not really based in halacha.
You don’t think they have a point? Obama – probably in an effort to butter up the press – made an impromptu visit to the press room. He was joking with the reporters like they were buddies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D9-pXe3TZw
Now this is a smart strategy, and some reporters saw right through it. But we have to wonder. Obama is not our friend, he is no longer a ‘regular jo shmo’. He is President of the United States of America. He should start acting like. At this time America needs a leader not a friend.
So yeh maybe he should keep his jacket on more often…couldnt hurt
Umm… no.
You are wrong. It’s based on halacha. You are supposed to dress the way you’d dress to come see a king. And a hat is an additional kavod necessary for davening (kippah is not enough, since it’s a question of tznius).
“Rebellion in prevalent in all organized social structures” is a very well respected theory amongst sociological scholars and academics and I am sure it’s certain in most sitautions.A structre usually preaches perfection based on a common set of laws or beliefs.I reels either feels that the laws or beliefs have not been intrpreted correctly, does not believe perfection is nessassary or that the laws and beliefs are superflous to prefection(i.e. a student may argue”rebbi why do I have to wear a white dress shirt(superfulous to perfection) it is not stated anywhere in halacha(pefection)” of course the answer is that a white shirt gets you in the mood of being yeshivish which will then make perfection more easily obtainable in the subjective opinion of the yeshiva. Apply the same concept to Obama.
CA,
I highly doubt tat Moshe Rebbeinu wore a borsalino or shtreimel, contrary to what some militant BT’s might tell you, just as the Rambam didn’t were a bekitshe or veisse zoken.
Do you actually think that people would go to see a king in a smashed hat (the kind you see in 770)?
On the subject of rebels. We all know what a Yeshiva rebel does when he goes”off the derech”. I always wondered what a Bais Yaakov girl does when she rebels. I have a feeling she would probably not smoke contraband, drink beer, listen to heavy metal or become a sexaholic.
What does a Consevative or Reform guy do when they go “off the derech. Do they become gothic or what?
I am amazed that no one in that article commented about the First Lady’s gown. She looked wonderful but I think all of the VIN readers would definitely think it was untznius, unless they were too busy getting off 😉
PS,
Re: the hat and jacket thing, I see guys coming to daven in ripped jeans and others that smell like they haven’t showered since their bar mitzva. Do you think that the hat and jackets they were make them approriately dressed for shul?
PS,
Read the hat and jacket thng, I see guys coming to daven in ripped jeans and others that smell like they haven’t showered since their bar mitzva. Do you think that the hat and jackets they were make them approriately dressed for shul?
Michael Shoshani:
This is why they are worried. They are afraid that if the president shows that he is working then they might not have the excuse to sit around being lazy and not work themselves.
Ah yes there is a difference between “Conservative and Liberal” and “Orthodox and Conservative” the answer to my question is probably the same thing a yeshiva rebel would do. Rebelling from a “conservative school of thought” to a “liberal school of thought” is prevalent in all societies.
Michael Shoshani :
That is what they are afraid of. Someone WORKing! This totally dissolves their theory and they might have to get out of their kollel and actually WORk (four letter word, I know)
In regards to hats and jackets for davening, What happens if these “yeshivish” people dont have one and the “zman” for davening is almost over?? Do they just not daven!?!?!
Yes, i think its a true lack of respect to the presidency. I would want to look at a leader of my country with admiration and respect.
You wanna take off your jacket and roll up your sleeves at some “ground breaking” ceremony? That’s cool, but in the oval office? Sorry that’s just plain no respect, and borderline chutzpa, and degrading to the highest office of this great country.
There is a difference in being liberal with your social policies, and trying to give off a “regular-guy” look to running a country. It takes more to run a country successfully, then assembling 1000 advisers to help you make every decision, including ones you don’t even know what they are all about (if you watched yesterday’s news conference).
Nothing to do with frummies, it has to do with good old fashioned respect. It happens to be, that there is a lot respect and decorum embodied into Yiddishkiet, as a whole.
Bsamim,
They become BT’s.
respect – I disagree with you. The clothes don’t make the man. Did you like Ronald Reagewn? He wore brown suites, I never see any serious business men or politicians wear brown suites. Would you still respect a General or and Admiral if you met them in civilian clothes? If an airline pilot was in jeans and a t-shirt would you trust him with your life any more? less?
PS – If a doctor doesn’t wear a white coat would you let him/her examin you?
My brother works for a bank and guess what there is a DRESS CODE.Any employee who dares to show up in jeans gets THROWN OUT.All major firms and banks require that their employees dress a certain way.A banker dosent have to dress like a garbageman.The president can dress cool and relaxed when wants to.However when he is the oval office there should be a a bit of respect.You dont see the Queen of England meeting with her advisors in her bathing suit!I know Obama is not wearing a bathing suit, but certain proffesions have a certain dress code.When we go to shul we wear our nicest/nicer clothing, the President of America is one of the most respected positions in the world and the one who is in that position should look the part!
You are wrong. It’s based on halacha. You are supposed to dress the way you’d dress to come see a king.
Which king? Would it be appropriate, for example, to wear one of those African shirt/gowns which is what one wears to go see an African king?
Or would it be appropriate to wear what you would wear to an Elvis Presley concert? 🙂
Left Brookly, Ronald Reagan NEVER took off his jacket in the Oval office, (oh, and more ppl watched his inauguration then Obama’s, sorry)
All this reminds me of that movie where Chris Rock decides to run for president, he was doing everything “wrong” in the campaign, including the most outrageous clothes.
Another thing about that picture:
Have you noticed that the crowd is made up of white women?
I highly doubt tat Moshe Rebbeinu wore a borsalino or shtreimel, contrary to what some militant BT’s might tell you, just as the Rambam didn’t were a bekitshe or veisse zoken.
Do you actually think that people would go to see a king in a smashed hat (the kind you see in 770)?
Moshe Rabbeinu ate his chicken with milk. And didn’t say Psukei D’Zimra.
What are you talking about? Of course customs of clothes change, and our view of what’s respectable adapt to them. In our times, it’s respectable to wear a jacket. And it’s respectable to cover your head when davening to Hashem, but since kippa is a regular everyday covering, it doesn’t count.
When the Rebbe becomes the King, he will wear streimel. Don’t you worry about people coming to see the Rebbe. They’ve been doing that for years.
Do you think that the hat and jackets they were make them approriately dressed for shul?
Yes. But they are not appropriately washed for shull.
Which king? Would it be appropriate, for example, to wear one of those African shirt/gowns which is what one wears to go see an African king?
Which king? Hashem, of course. (Aah, I see your confusion, Phil.)
And the answer to your question: one is not allowed to daven barefoot, because it’s disrespectful. But when there was a period when it was a custom to visit a certain king only barefoot, it was halacha to daven only barefoot in that country.
So, obviously, you shouldn’t daven in your bathrobe, even though some time ago it may have been luxury clothes.
What is this, amartztus marathon? Or are you just hacking chainik?
Who decides what is appropriate? In my work place we wear jeans and flip flops. That is appropriate. If you walked in wearing a suit, it would be out of place and laughable.
Besides the religious part of this conversation, the argument you all are having is one had by many people all across the country. As the next generation (my generation) takes control of the world’s companies standards in dress are changing. My generation understands that ability and capability are what make you successful and not what brand of tie or panty hose. Additionally, not using spell check or taking the time to edit your comments make you look more ignorant than me sitting here at work in jeans. If you CHOOSE to dress a certain way for your own religious reasons, that is fine, however, you cannot then define everyone around you by YOUR own choices. You may think a person is not dressing tznius but if that person does not understand or believe in YOUR definition of tzniut then how can you hold them to that standard?
Personally, I admire President Obama for getting down and rolling up his sleeves and actually accomplishing something for this country. I would rather not have a prissy president who wears his jacket and sits on his throne to be photographed. And the comment about it being his “culture” is so ignorant. What “culture” are you referring to? People who are the president of the Harvard Law Review? People who go to Columbia and Harvard Universities? People born in Hawaii? The culture of Senators in the United States? Or are you implying something more racist and referring to his skin color? President Obama didn’t grow up in the “ghetto.” He isn’t a thug, he doesn’t wear bling, and those stereotypes are just as disgusting as the ones who say that we all have big noses and horde money and kill Christian children for the blood libel.
It really disappoints me when Jews are racist and then cry out against anti-semitism. My grandfather (a rabbi) marched with Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. In the 60’s the Jews and African-Americans stood together.
Oh and dare I say, where have you seen a picture of him without his jacket IN THE OVAL OFFICE? Because that picture isn’t it.
That picture is clearly photo-shopped to have as many women in it as possible and is clearly not the Oval Office.
Personally, I admire President Obama for getting down and rolling up his sleeves and actually accomplishing something for this country.
Meaning what? What has he accomplished for this country?
I love this thing about liberals. You roll your sleeves — you have accomplished something. You print more money — everyone is richer. You open up an umbrella — it must be raining.
Do you guys look at what temperature you set on your thermostat before deciding whether to put on a sweater?
Mark – Which king? Would it be appropriate, for example, to wear one of those African shirt/gowns which is what one wears to go see an African king?
Axe – Which king? Hashem, of course. (Aah, I see your confusion, Phil.)
We know which king ultimately, but that wasn’t the question. The statement is that one should approach Hashem as if approaching a king. The analogy is to a mortal king, so the question is which king is to be used for the analogy.
What is this, amartztus marathon? Or are you just hacking chainik?
What’s the halacha about calling a bunch of people amhaaretz in public? Obviously you can’t be too concerned about halacha in this case as the penalty is quite severe!
As to the President — if he wore sandals but actually did something intelligent, I’d applaud him. Einstein never wore socks or cut his hair. Nobody cares, because the guy was smart. FDR wore a hat and nice suits. He still ruined the country’s economy.
And so will Obama’s social policies.
How do you know I am a liberal? Maybe I just happen to admire Obama. I feel like he has already made some good steps towards the future with the people he has surrounded himself with. I also like where his policies are going.
We’re having an idiotic conversation about his jacket. Don’t you think there are more important things in the world?
I love this thing about conservatives. You wear your stuffy suit jackets — you have accomplished nothing. You keep money out of the hands of poor to line your own pockets — just ignore the children crying in the street, Buffy. You take away an umbrella from a homeless guy — he must have stolen it.
good question, how do we know you are a liberal? hmm?
Crawling Axe,
I’m always hacking cheinik when commenting on this blog.
What makes you think that the Rebbe is becomming king or that he will wear a shtreimel if he didn’t furing his lifetime?
Maybe he will come back as a sephardi and wear on of those big colored yemenite kippas…
I personally feel that the hat and jacket thing is exaggerated. In the Lubavitch shul I go to, they prefer to see a guy in a hoody and cap, then a guy with a $100 shirt and tie without a jacket. I ask you, which do you think is more respectable?
The one issue I agree with you on is the liberal hype about your new president. He hasn’t even had the chance to walk through the door, and people are already saying great things about what he’s done. As far as I’m concerned, he hasn’t done anything greater than Flavour Flav, namely getting a bunch of young black people to dance and party, except that this guy stuck the taxpayers with the bill.
Bsamim,
Off the derech girls can be even worse, check the crazy Leah blog featured in the links section if haven’t already done so. I realize she’s an extreme case, but don’t think that off the derech guys don’t have their counterparts.
What makes you think that the Rebbe is becomming king or that he will wear a shtreimel if he didn’t furing his lifetime?
First question: long story, which won’t produce anything positive (but short answer: because efforts of Chabad Chassidus will bring about geula). Second question: we were in golus, of course. A Lubavitcher Rebbe doesn’t wear a Streimel outside of Lubavitch (with one exception).
Maybe he will come back as a sephardi and wear on of those big colored yemenite kippas…
Why? Is sephardic derech going to bring Mashiach? If so, then it won’t be the Rebbe who is going to be the king, but a Sephardic godol (who will wear whatever they wear).
I personally feel that the hat and jacket thing is exaggerated. In the Lubavitch shul I go to, they prefer to see a guy in a hoody and cap, then a guy with a $100 shirt and tie without a jacket. I ask you, which do you think is more respectable?
To whom? The guy in a hoody and cap is an oived. The guy with a $100 shirt is a beheima. Feh.
We know which king ultimately, but that wasn’t the question. The statement is that one should approach Hashem as if approaching a king. The analogy is to a mortal king, so the question is which king is to be used for the analogy.
Let me make [deleted for the purpose of ahavas yisroel]-type comparison. How do you dress for a job interview?
By the way, nobody really cares about Obama’s dress. Come on. It’s a pretense (on both sides) to chack chainik. About Obama, about dressing up for shull, about liberals and conservatives, etc.
And I also think it’s a good thing that a Black man is in the office. He has a chance to tell all minorities: “Look, we’ve shown that a member of minority can become a President. That doesn’t mean that everyone can become a President — but it does mean that everyone can become something. So, get off your asses, stop schnorring, get a job and do something constructive in your life.”
Now, do I think he will do that?..
Maybe I just happen to admire Obama. I feel like he has already made some good steps towards the future with the people he has surrounded himself with.
So, give me an example. What has he accomplished so far in his life. Made actual difference.
I love this thing about conservatives. You wear your stuffy suit jackets — you have accomplished nothing. You keep money out of the hands of poor to line your own pockets — just ignore the children crying in the street, Buffy. You take away an umbrella from a homeless guy — he must have stolen it.
Conservatives created this country. And built it. And free-loaders are destroying it.
We keep OUR money in OUR pockets, while providing poor people with jobs, affordable, cheap and high-quality products and services (resulting from capitalism instead of socialism) and benefit the world. While you whine and steal.
And conservatives are not against tzedaka. They are agains tzedaka distributed by the government. Anything done privately — including helping the poor — is better done privately. With the exception of national defense and police.
that evil evil man a crime so terrible like that should get him put into chairim
Honestly,
We as Jews do not believe that the clothes make the man, or you are what you wear. That is a false concept which may be believed in more secular circles. However, as bnei Torah or Children of G-d, there is a proper dress code. Anyone who disagrees thus far I really have no way to argue with you. An important high level human has always in the history of the world clothed him in high level clothing. Now, how do we define high level clothing? We see throughout history that our high level leaders, whether religious or political (or both) sometimes wore things that today we would view as improper and unfitting of a person of that stature to wear. There, we must, to a very high degree, assess what is proper from the current sociological standards itself. It is very well known and accepted that in the year 2009 high level professionals will always wear a suit. If they go golfing, or swimming, or vacationing then they obviously will dress accordingly. However, while working, especially in a place where their co-workers or employees have access to them and look up to them as an example (the oval office), this high level professional is expected to comply with the modern understanding of what the acceptable dress code is. And to address whoever it was that asked if we would trust a doctor or a pilot dressed in swimming clothing. Hell no I wouldn’t. This shows that this person has a mental problem for going against the grain in such an extreme manner. Let’s ask the question “Why wouldn’t he just be like every other doctor or pilot and just wear the stinking uniform.” The answer is not buried too deep. Obama is trying to empathize with the average working man by acting like him. However, I say to him, the president of the United States of America is held to higher standards than the average working man. The average working man is not in charge (altz hishtadlus) of the safety of the entire world. Hope I made this clear without veering to much, and without bringing the classic extreme examples of rebuttal which look idiotic.
That looked interesting, but absence of paragraphs prevented me from reading it.
Whoa – everything i had just written (rater eloquently) erased for no apparent reason. guess that’s a sign from above that i don’t need to waste time on grammar.
1- Phil is right on the money, a liberal minded suburban hebrew school proponent with a upper middle class salary fears nothing more than a son or daughter asking to go to yeshiva and learn about their roots. everything has been reduced to a mentality of orthodoxy as a ghetto culture of eastern europe, leaving the grandparents responsible to support a family of 15 living on a yeshiva stipend.
2- I think that the culture of the ‘yeshiva rebels’ has a far greater and more long-lasting impact on the female faction of the community.
A- because the issue of promiscuity has a larger relevance on the future of a girl returning to the derech and looking for a spouse.
B- because the yeshivas and programming devoted to these YR boys are generally not available to girls.
C- because when a yeshiva boy shows up in jeans and a t-shirt everyone worries, but if a girl shows up in jeans and a t-shirt she is assumed to be WAY far gone. Consequently, no one will even try to figure out what this girl is being driven by – which might not even be a difficult hashkafic issue to resolve. Furthermore, every post-YR Rabbi is doing outreach and trying to help boys the are reminiscent of his past, while women who have ‘returned’ from this past would largely rather blend into their respective populations.
3- Finally, on the subject of the importance of the clothing we wear I’d assume I have NO idea what Mashiach will be wearing when he arrives. I actually think its hugely contrary to the tradition of true Judaism to make the call whether he will be wearing the clothes of a Bukharian or Lubavitch, Satmar or Teimani. Why do we constantly need to be reminded that there are “Shiviim Panim LaTorah”? This argument is the embodiment of Sinas Chinam, hating another Jew for ANYTHING other than deeds outside the framework of Torah.
ps – I hope Obama is a positive influence on the United States, supports Israel and fulfills the hype about him being the next Abraham Lincoln. I wouldn’t bet five dollars on all of the above happening, but I do hope so.
i was wondering if anyone else made the comparison between yosef and obama.
1. yosef told pharoh we have tough economic times coming…
2. yosef bought all the land — nationalized industry, sort of like the bailout
3. yosef paved the way for his BROTHERS,
get it? brothers?
4. yosef created a social safety net, so that everyone would have enough to eat — spread around the wealth
5. yosef was noted for being a young wise ruler
6. yosef had a history of slavery
7. if i think of more i’ll tell you
8. yosef had one parent who was deceased
9. yosef had two children
10. yosef interpreted DREAMS (and told them to his) FATHER
11. yosef was involved in controversy surrounding his JACKET
12. yosef was the first of his race to be a ruler in the land
Dofan I am using that in a post
The dress code of even high level executives depends on the location and field of business…in most of my former positions, even the highest level executives dressed casually – nice shirt and pants. There’s no hard and fast rule.
Dofan,
Yosef’s brother’s said “oy”, Obama’s brothers say “yo”.
tnspr569-
obviously there are going to be exceptions to the rule. Everything has an exception. But more than generally, high level executives, especially in an important setting will where very respectful clothing. namely a suit.
“I always wondered what a Bais Yaakov girl does when she rebels. I have a feeling she would probably not smoke contraband, drink beer, listen to heavy metal or become a sexaholic.”
You know the song, “I Kissed a Girl”? That’s what we rebel (former one here) girls do. We also do other fun things.