So let me get this straight, feminists are pissed off that they:
Don’t have to roll out of bed at 6:30 in the morning and go to shacharis
Don’t have to toil over gemara
Don’t have to put on tefillin in the morning
Don’t have to learn torah (if a woman learns torah does that mean that it’s automatically lishmah – learning torah lishmah is the equivalent of keeping all the mitzvos in the torah, or are they on such a high madreiga that women don’t have to kow any torah at all?)
Don’t have to daven three times a day
Don’t have to wear tzitzis (the male version of a bra)
Don’t have to wear a talis (it’s freaking hot underneath em, good thing I don’t have to yet)
Don’t have to wear a kitel
Don’t have to fast on minor fast days
Don’t have to wear a yarmulke (sheitles kind of blow though)
Get to wear skirts which mean their crotches are always airy
Don’t have to buy a lulav
Don’t have to roll over at 6am and say shema while half asleep
Don’t have to stay up all night on shavuos
Don’t have to be at shul on hoshanna rabba, days of slichos or chol hamoid
The list goes on and on, can anyone tell me why women are insistent on doing these things and why it’s a negative thing that they don’t have to do them?
I sure as hell don’t want to have a kid, make challah and say tehilim on the train ride to work, but you don’t see me complaining about your getting born into a lower madreiga. I’d much rather be on a higher spiritual level so I can sit around and laugh at the men who have to work so hard to attain the spiritual heights that a woman was born into.
Wait a second, if a woman was born into being so spiritual and doesn’t have to do these things, does that mean that if she does it, she gets extra brownie points for when she gets up to the big guy/gal in the sky? Or does it mean that she was bittul homemaker by going outside of the kitchen to do things that she didn’t have a mitzvah to do, like us men wearing tzitzis at night.
Who said they don’t have to fast on every fast day?
Kind of like how Islamic feminists are angry they aren’t exhorted to perform suicide bombings? ;^) That was a terrible joke and I apologize. (Yes yes I know this blog is not Islamist Satire.)
No, though — in all seriousness. Perhaps the Jewish feminists are dissatisfied not that they don’t HAVE to do these things, but that they are scorned if they WISH to do these things?
I’ll never forget the astonishment I felt recently watching a video of plastic chairs being hurled at Jewish women trying to pray at the Western Wall.
?!?! woman are allowed to pray at the Western Wall, no problems there
In the video I saw, these women were trying to pray at the Wall in their own little area and the men were pissed off about it & hurling plastic chairs over the partition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrvxaT6QIw0
women are NOT allowed to wear talasim and read torah at the Western Wall…they have to go to a different area to do this
I’m sure these same women would not do anything offensive to the Buddhist if they went to a Buddhist site, but to fellow Jews, sure , lets bring a video camera along too, so that we can show the world what kind of nation we are!
Okay, so let me get this straight. The problem was not that the women were praying, it was that they were doing other stuff they are not supposed to do.
yes, now u got it
Mahla it’s complete stupidity – just a bunch of men with nothing else better to do
I don’t think that’s fair. If you disagree with a policy, there are lots of ways to show that. Don’t show up and break the rules and expect people to look the other way. There are rules of conduct at the kotel, like them or not. Write a petition, use the media, whatever. But if you’re going to blatantly break the rules you’re asking for them to do something. It’s like walking in barefoot in a bikini to a “no shirt no shoes no service” restaurant… you’re gonna be surprised when they don’t bring you bread rolls?
this coming from a guy that writes a blog.
Yeah — the Women of the Wall even get arrested for “causing public nuisance”
There are enough female islamist suicide bombers.
Yes, unfortunately there are, Toto. :^(
mahla, i have no idea what you are talking about, women are not only allowed to pray at the western wall but a)there is a womens section b)they are exhorted to pray by jewish codifiers c)a womans prayer takes precedence over a mans
No, they read from the Torah and wear tallitot as well as praying. (Oh no, attack of the women fulfilling mitzvot!)
I’m going to recommend the “Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog” on this one:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/
Basically, they’re pissed because these “obligations” actually become rituals that define the community. While women may be legally permitted from doing some of these things, in practice, Orthodoxy prevents them from doing so. Reluctantly, women become excluded from many of the key institutions of the Jewish community, thus solidifying patriarchy.
Heshy, this is by far the worst post you’ve ever had, and I think I’m going to stop reading your blog now.
J, I think your comment was a really good one and I see the wisdom in what you’ve said. Seriously, though, you shouldn’t stop reading Heshy’s blog because of this post!
Every blog needs dissenting voices, especially articulate ones that might make the author or even one reader stop and contemplate where the opposing view is coming from. :^)
J and Adena Im guessing you are feminists (angry ones but that may be redundant 🙂 seriously though I have a question. The “women of the wall” who insist on wearing tefilin and talis, do they expect their sons and husbands to wear tefilin everyday, or is that not as important to them?
and for that matter do these women wear them everyday, or only when camera are watching in a publice spectacle?
Perhaps a public spectacle is in order when all they are looking for is the ability to pray as the men do and without being herded to “the back of the bus” –> the women’s section of the wall.
This may be hard to comprehend for all the nice Jewish boys on here, and I mean the ones brought up Orthodox, but all these feminists and any feminists are looking for is equality. They, we, are not anti-men, just pro-women.
how is womens section of the wall like back of the bus? both sections are the same.
No they’re not. It’s the Incredible Shrinking Ezrat Nashim.
Ah, but we are not equal, so why would we want equality? I am thankful every day that I am female, and the majority of my thankfulness is not religiously motivated.
A woman near and dear to me was also looking for what you mention (in the secular world) at one time. So she did it all, became a fire fighter, athletic trainer, etc. Her motto was, “Whatever men can do, I can do better.”
Turns out she became an observant Jew and she feels so much more fulfilled now than in her previous constantly proving-herself-to-little-avail days. Whatever readers here may say about it just being a line to keep the women happy, she truly does feel more spiritually elevated than the males around her. Of course she still has a prominent sign in her kitchen that says “When G-d created man, She was only kidding” and goes to minyan and learns gemara with the guys (and contrary to what some of you complain about, they, ultra-Orthodox men, welcome her presence. *gasp*) every morning. That’s just what makes her who she is, though she has come to recognize the joy of being able to spend more time with one’s children and taking more time to enjoy the little things in life instead of always being caught up in trying to prove something. It’s a much more peaceful existence, and more people could have that if they would not be so rabid (not as negative as it sounds- I just don’t want to have to follow that with an “ly” and then have to limit it to one adjective).
I think if many of you would only start to focus on the positive and what you *are* doing to change the world rather than how you perceive you are being put down, you, too might feel fulfilled without even wearing a talit.
Thanks for sharing the story about your friend. I think it is important to point out though, that it was necessary for her to go through all that she went through in order to figure out what truly is fulfilling to her.
I can’t say I feel as strongly about “girl power” as your friend obviously does. I would not have a sign in my home such as the one she does. I happen to think men are great 😉
And it is especially heartwarming to hear that the ultra-Orthodox men welcome her presence. However, that is certainly not always the case. It is this exact opportunity that your friend has now – to be welcomed by men, to go to a minyan, to learn gemara – that is what Jewish feminists are fighting for.
Bingo ester as i suspected. Women wearing tefinlin isnt really about getting closer to god or doing extra mitzvos. It is about making a “public spectacle.” So let them call a spade a spade and stop pretending that wearing tefilin is about doing more mitzvos, it isnt which is the real reason there is such opposition to these women of the wall
Hi there! I was wondering when you’d pipe up. Tx for misspelling and failing to capitalize my name, by the way… I feel the respect.
Anyhow, you missed my point… and theirs. I don’t think they are pretending and I fail to see how them wearing tefillin or doing anythin else they wish to do affects anyone but them. Live and let live — practice Judaism as best as you can and let others do the same.
My apologies for misspelling your name, my comments are often full of typos, as well as grammatical errors, New comments pop up in my email and i respond quickly in a conversational style, without always double checking my comments spelling and grammar (I failed to capitilize the “I” two words after your name and I have a lot of respect for me 🙂 )
as far as live and let live, you have the wrong religion. Judasim believes in “kol yisroel araivim zeh la zeh” all Jews are responsible for each other, we are all in this together. We never take a live and let live approach.
Secondly, even if we were to take a live and let live approach, here we couldnt. As you know orthodox judaism doesnt recognize the other branches as legitiamte forms of judaism, allowing a group a public platform to practice their form of judasim would grant them legitimacy. If their desire was sincerely motivated (which you agreed that it was not, although that wasnt your point), that would be a separate issue . However if their desire is to make a public spectacle at the holiest site and to show that their form of judaism is legitamte, that you cant expect Orthodoxy to allow.
(As for why Orthodoxy doesnt recognise the other branches, that is a separate discussion, for this conversation we can agree on the fact that they dont recognize them)
No worries on the name, just busting chops… since no comment of mine ever goes ignored by you, its the least I can do 😉
I never said their motivations were not sincere – what I meant was that perhaps they overdo it and intentionally cause a spectacle because they are trying to bring attention to the matter. Yes, sadly, I have to agree that Orthodoxy does not recognize other branches of Judaism as legitimate.
Like you said, “allowing a group a public platform to practice their form of judasim would grant them legitimacy” – thus, they attempt to obtain legitimacy in this fashion, forcing the world to examine the issue and putting pressure on Orthodoxy.
Actually, I think that’s rather clever. Judaism (Orthodoxy), like so many of the commenters here pointed out, is a patriarchal religion. It seems to be that what’s happening now is a growing movement to push it, pull it, nudge it and force it to reconcile with the fact that times are changing and recognize that it is much more beneficial to let people practice their forms of Judaism than oppose them so vehemently that it will drive them to abandon religion altogether.
As you know orthodoxy doesnt believe in reconciling with times no mattter how much you “push, pull, nudge or force.” (As to whether women wearing tefinlin actually violates halacha is a different matter, one that is irrelevant to the current issue at hand.) We have the torah which we believe is gods eternal word and will never bend it to times. Even if you disagree with that notion, I hope you can appreciate and understand where orthodoxy is coming from.
This is actually what I strive for in these comments I dont hope to change your (or anyones’s) mind just to get you to understand and not just dismiss our view.
Of course I understand it – disagree with it passionately – but understand it nonetheless. What I hope for, and you probably fear, is for Orthodoxy to realize that, while Torah doesn’t need to and should not be bending with the times, halacha probably should.
Its never gonna happen, youre not the first to try to bend our religion weve overcome many challenges over the past millenia our religion will outlive us all unscathed.
Moshe emes vetorahso emes
“, is for Orthodoxy to realize that, while Torah doesn’t need to and should not be bending with the times, halacha probably should.”
Esther, you lost all credence with this comment.
Every day.
I do hear that a lot of ladies kvetch they want to be able to do the things that men do – because telling them they are more spiritual is just a condescending thing that men say to keep the ladies behind the mechitzah quiet.
“can anyone tell me why women are insistent on doing these things and why it’s a negative thing that they don’t have to do them?”
I’m afraid this post shows a real lack of understanding of women. And of Judaism, for that matter. Judaism is all about the things that you do: praying, studying, laying tefillin, wearing talit, chanting Torah and Haftarah, leading services, etc. and to be excluded from those things is to be excluded from the very essence of Judaism.
I agree with J. Not a very good post.
those things are NOT the essence of Judaism! I would not even put them on the first 200 important things about Judasim. If that is the essence of your Judasim, what’s the point in it?
Besides, how many men read from the Torah or lead services? Most listen just the same way woman do. And there is no one preventing women from praying or studding.
Heshie, your post is very good.
Heshy,
Many Jewish feminists could care less about doing most of these things. It’s the perception of being relegated to a status of inferiority that pisses them off, so they adopt practices that normally they wouldn’t be interested in doing to buck the system.
I agree that greater social flexibility to take on extra observances within the framework of halachah should be allowed. In that vein, the more widespread institutions of female Torah learning (which even the chareidi world is largely allowing) has been a good thing. Rashi’s daughters supposedly put on tefillin, etc.
But most of these women are simply trying to “fight the patriarchy.” It’s not the extra kedusha they’re after.
Oh, and by the way: anyone that would stop visiting this website because of a post like this, clearly has a fanatical mindset, and should have their emotional stability called into question.
Actually, I’m after holiness. Come on – there’s no reason why I shouldn’t wear my tallit and tefillin (AS IT SAYS IN THE SHEMA), so you just try and stop me.
Do you seriously think Judaism is about the things we DO? Judaism far trancends our actions. As someone who is looked upon as a feminist, I totally understand your anger/resentment. However, I really have no interest in getting up early for shacharis and all that. I don’t think that doing the things that men are supposed to do make us more equal to them. I absolutely love being a woman just for that (and hello Heshy, where the heck did you get the idea that women don’t fast on “minor fast?” As far as I know, that is a Chassidish belief based in the idea that woman are all anemic). My issues always been with naara ivreia and polygamy. These are two cases which seriously look very unpleasant from a woman’s percspective. Keep your tallis, but please explain to me the above two topics!!!
no one is saying you’re wrong for not wanting to take on mitzvot that in ashkenazi orthodox circles have been largely prohibited for women. but to say that Judaism isn’t about DOING is for many, many women misguided. mitzvot are inherently performative acts, sacralized by the recitation of a benediction to necessarily separate those actions from those of day-to-day life. even asher yatzar elevates an otherwise grim performance to the realm of mitzvah. kal v’chomer bentsching lulav, wrapping tefillin, bentsching licht on shabbos and chanukah, making havdallah, searching for chametz on erev pesach, dwelling in a sukkah….even eating cholent on shabbos afternoon. that women are ‘exempt’ from so many of these can and does limit some women’s sense of Jewish fulfillment. while heshy may gripe and moan about Ol Malchus Shomayim others feel differently about the power and benefits of living a life of mitzvos.
Polygamy?! :^O
>I’m afraid this post shows a real lack of understanding of women. And of Judaism, for that matter. Judaism is all about the things that you do: praying, studying, laying tefillin, wearing talit, chanting Torah and Haftarah, leading services, etc. and to be excluded from those things is to be excluded from the very essence of Judaism.
well wait a minute. I thought the essence of Judaism is avodat Hashem and behaiving morally. Judaism understands this in means to assigning different roles to different groups within the larger “Jewish family.” Seems to me you are only stating this because the feminist revolution in the 60’s told you to think this way (ie, equality of everything). Would you say all those females before us did not understand the essence of Judaism or at the very last practiced an essense-less Judaism?
Personally, the biggest joke, IMO is women in a kippa. Apparently, they cannot practice Judaism without being themselves and instead wearing something explicitly male garment.
how do we serve hashem? through action. piety of the mind is for the Protestants. Jews act, and do.
How do we serve Hashem? Through action. Piety of the mind is for the Protestants. Jews act. We don’t think about mitzvot, we do mitzvot. We don’t ponder chessed, we go out and change the world for the better. Jews do. And some women, contrary to their wishes, do much less.
You are taking my comment out of context. Read the rest of it. Judaism slices these actions in different roles. Specifically, RITUALS are allocated differently. We aren’t talking about matters of justice or what is right or wrong we are talking about rituals here. I am more geared to think that we are talking about fighting for ritual equality for the sake of ritual equality and it has nothing to do with God or Judaism.
Again, Judaism IS Jewish ritual and Jewish action. Women (I myself am male) are looking for meaning–the rich meaning encoded in centuries of Jewish ritual (in which, I must add, women were frequently participants). It doesn’t lessen my Judaism to be comfortable with a woman laying tefillin or bentsching lulav; so, if it enhances her Jewish experience, so be it?
No, not again.
You can’t just strip Judaism into simple ritual and action without its greater context. This isn’t about A female or A male or any other individual. Its about the totality. Again, the problem is not that woman have less meaning on their part, but they are told that unless you do the exact same as your male counterparts you are meaning – less. Hence the fight needs to be fought for everything being the same.
this myth might work well for you, but most American Jews recognize that Am Yisrael is fractured…there is no totality with which both Reform Jews and the Slonimer protesters can identify with. As long as Jews reject one another’s Judaism and refuse to live in community, it is painfully difficult to convince modern women to subsume their quest for meaning within some greater Jewish…machine.
Am Yisrael has always been fractured. Always. And they have always rejected one another’s Judaism. This is nothing new. If there is something to be criticized, then I feel it needs to be criticized. I don’t see how that negates living together…but OK.
The truth, like I said and will repeat, I really do not believe its their quest for meaning. I think its simply they are following in the footsteps of the baby boomer generation that fought for equality and now fight for equality on all fronts no matter if equality should be an issue or not.
Am Yisrael has always been fractured. Always. And they have always rejected one another’s Judaism. This is nothing new. If there is something to be criticized, then I feel it needs to be criticized. I don’t see how that negates living together…but OK.
The truth, like I said and will repeat, I really do not believe its their quest for meaning. I think its simply they are following in the footsteps of the baby boomer generation that fought for equality and now fight for equality on all fronts no matter if equality should be an issue or not.
A woman in a kippa is like a woman in a polo shirt, kind of butch
My kipaa came with my tallit. Both are pink and embroidered with doves. No man that I know would wear that.
My kippah came with my tallit. Both are pink and embroidered with doves. No man that I know would wear that.
Heshy first you back down from a fight with you ashkenazi peers about the racisist event that took place in Israel. You coward! You had it right the first time. I’m not buying your spin. Now for this one your ignorant sexist. You want to keep your auidance then stay true.
How is this ignorant and sexist – if you would have been reading this blog for some time, you would have noticed that I put up contradictory opinions all of the time. The problem is that everyone reads one post and assumes I am a sexist, I have written pro and anti women rabbi posts, I am down with women doing these things, this post was meant to be funny and everyone went nuts.
I thought it was funny! And I consider myself a feminist….! Best hand in my Feminist Club membership card next time I’m in the vicinity, lol!
Come on now, Heshy. Of course it was funny and of course you knew that when you post it, it will generate a debate (or several) and a ridiculous number of comments. I’ve been reading long enough to know which topics are hot topics, so to speak. Clearly, since you run this blog, you had to have known this too.
i can see a debate brewing here…
actually Judaism isn’t about wearing tefilin and minyans…its about being a light among nations – tikkun olam and working on ourselves.
Why can’t women be considered equal but different
Separate but equal … recalls the days of the Dixiecrats
different- not separate.
That’s what they all say
YEAH MAN, BECAUSE THIS WORKED SO WELL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education
great point, most people dont know that the supreme court often decides on the constitutionality of the torah.
you are a truly intelligent fellow
Thank you anon!!! I think you’re the only one that got my point. Mitzvos and actions are meant to bring us to the ultimate goal. Most of us get so caught up in the DOING that we our real purpose in this world.
To the Anonymous who stated that Heshy “sucks.” C’mon now! Three well-reasoned and lucid comments have already appeared dissenting to the premise of Heshy’s post.
We can infer that you, too, object to its content — yet this naked ad hominem attack is all you can come up with?
i also kind of wonder about women having the option to wear tefilin, etc…men don’t have the option…so why should it be optional for women?
men don’t have the option of getting pregnant. halacha recognizes the primacy of a woman’s role as mother…that said, in 2010 women have the option to (1) delay marriage and (2) choose when to become pregnant, meaning that women as a class cannot be treated as perpetually barefoot and pregnant; hence, the OPTION to lay tefillin, should that particular woman be in a phase of life wherein the responsibilities of childbearing / nursing / rearing do not prevent her from fulfilling time-bound mitzvot.
women don’t have many of the obligations that men have but it doesn’t mean that they are not allowed to perform them. rashi’s daughter supposedly wore tefillin. however, orthodox jews will not permit it (and some will attack women who have strap marks on their arms…. http://tinyurl.com/25xao92 .) women are also not permitted to lain torah because of kol isha…. (one has to wonder how sexually repressed men are that they might lose it right there in shul from hearing a woman chant. )
i used to feel that these were all feminist issues but i no longer feel that way. these are issues of finding equality in a patriarchal culture, where all of the rules are made and interpreted by men (or men and god, or whatever permutation suits you) and women become subjugated by these very same laws.
why keep women from being allowed to be a witness, get a divorce, wear tefillin, read torah, drive a car (is that in the gemorrah?), wear pants, show her elbows, etc? because who knows what the religion will come to if women have any power! so instead, tell the women that they are on a higher madreiga to begin with (and men thank god for not making them women and slaves, in the same breath) so that judaism can remain a male-dominated religion. oh, and don’t forget to bash any other expression of judaism while we’re on the topic….
heshy, i’m about to start placing bets as to how many responses your post will get.
Amein, Rebecca! Well put.
I think what makes people mad is that it should be like this in the first place, that the public, seemingly most important things are reserved for men.
Here’s one way to think about it. There’s a crisis across the country in both churches and non-Orthodox shuls — men are leaving in droves. In many shuls and churches, there are hardly any men at all. Now why would this be?
Men, by nature, are often obsessed with things like sex, cars, steaks, alcohol, sports, their high-powered job, etc. It even says this in the Talmud — something to the effect of, women aren’t into big feasts and wine like men are. Anyway, from my own experience it does seem this is true, and not all that many are into prayer and spirituality and doing altruistic things for others.
So it could be that only if you say, listen men, here are a bunch of special things that only you men can do, and which you are required to do, do men end up being involved in religion. If women can do the things too, the men aren’t motivated enough to do it themselves.
Now some men are just going to go through the motions and end up obsessed with big fast things and their bodily lusts and so on. But even for them they will probably benefit from davening and doing the other mitzvot — and at least they won’t be spending that time doing something negative.
How many feminists know that there are several mitzvos that only women can do? I don’t see many men fighting for the opportunity to count nidda… Of course that may take some serious surgery though…
They could always count/check women’s niddah-ness though. Well, not their own wife’s but maybe someone else’s wife…
Heshy, I’ve been a fan of yours for a while, but this is just stupid.
I suggest you Google “privilege,” and “male privilege,” and take some time to read up because your post reeks of this.
The whole “women are on a higher madreiga” so they can just sit home and wipe asses and bake kugel instead of davening, “aren’t they lucky?” is ridiculous on its face. It is a condescending and oppressive notion that was only used to keep women subservient.
It’s like saying “Yeah, blacks are on a higher political awareness than us, let’s not let them vote, sound good?” and having an all-white panel vote “yes” unanimous.
Woman can pray all they want, they can go to shull too, they don’t have to, but there is no prohibition against it. I just dnt knw any woman who wants to schlep to shull 3 times a day.
No one said that- you’re just projecting. If anyone thinks that they can be limited to- or fulfilled by- baking kugels and wiping rear ends (my, how appealing you make it sound), then let that happen, whether man or woman. Some people enjoy the simpler things in life.
If not, then by all means, pursue it- go out and daven (using your example). I don’t know where you come from, but where I come from, women are *supposed* to daven. The fact is, though, that laziness usually wins out over religiousness and everything else. So when I want to go to shul in the early morning and ask female peers to join, they decline not because they fear stigma (there is none), but because they want a few more zzzzz’s. It’s as simple as that! I don’t see why there always has to be a conspiracy even when there’s not.
Men wipe too!
See now, you’ve just reduced what I do all day everyday to wiping asses and cooking kugel. Nice. Feminism was about the right to choose. I went to uni I worked on my career and I chose to stay home. I also chose to leave the reform shul where the female rabbi would don tallis and read form the Torah but never light candles or make challah or even keep a kosher kitchen.
I’m not a fool I realise there are some women who long to sit and learn but for the most part they can. That is not the issue, the issue is people who think the stuff that happens in shul is the essence of Judaism. That is bu%$$@*. The essence of my Judaism is my relationship to G-d and the world. Kosher, Shabbos and Taharas hamishpocha are integral parts of any observant Jewish life. These things couldn’t happen in my family’s life without me keeping a kosher home, lighting the candles and counting my days.
And why do some women think these things, “womens” things have no intrinsic value? I think its because you are defining male/female roles along western lines, where we are taught that for a woman to be equal she must do all that a man does and that her “old” role as wife and mother is part of some patriarchal hegemony spanning the ages. I actually do think western society views women as inherently lesser beings.
Judaism does not though. If you can’t see the value in a womans role thats your choice but don’t denigrate mine, after all someone had to wipe your arse once too 🙂
That’s insane; what the hell kind of rabbi (whether male or female) would not even keep kosher?! :^O
many reform, and a hand full of conservative
I want to “sit and learn” but I can’t!
Actually the entire post was a joke, but you people are just way too serious. I was basically trying to show subtly that the grass is always greener…
For the record I have written both sexist and very pro-women and even feminist stuff.
unanimously*
Would have been better had your list been limited to halachically correct assertions — it’s quite apparent that females do have an obligation to pray every day and that said obligation takes the form of shacharis + mincha.
And when it comes to tefillin, everyone likes to comment how Chazal took the liberty of limiting female involvement, but gloss over how they similarly restrict male involvement. Tefillin are actually a full-day mitzvah, yet men will wear tefillin for davening shacharis, which usually takes well under an hour. The problem is that men possess an obligation to wear tefillin and women don’t. Had it been merely a kiyum for men to wear tefillin and not an obligation, who’s to say what even tighter restrictions would have been placed. (This is the explanation that I heard from R’ Schachter on YUTorah.org.)
Hey us holy folks wear them while we give rides to ragged old men in the forest on our wagons
No, you don’t understand feminists or feminism. It’s really pretty glaring. If you’re going to make fun of something it helps to know something about it. Otherwise you look like an ignorant fool.
Like all of your comments about frummies
Here is where I think feminism failed. It fought for something worthy. To have their voices heard to be able to vote (etc etc). But like many movements, it can start to sound absurd depending on who its battling. Judaism, is not a religion of equality. It doesn’t say men and woman are the same even though the feminism of the 60’s (or at least many of its followers say otherwise). Woman have their obligations and men have theirs. And so, the battle doesn’t become one for the sake of serving God, but a very reflexive move on the part of progressives, which is to ultimately reduce and erase the distinctions between male and female. Equality on all fronts becomes the highest moral imperative. This is why female rabbis wearing kippot are so absurd. In their fight for ritual equality, they validated the criticism that the right was lodging against them, and that it is they want to be more “male,” since a kippa is a male garment.
Read up on things before spouting off ignorant shit.
All of the excuses I’ve heard from people about why women should be uneducated baby-factories sound eerily similar to the justifications of things such as “we’re not racist, we’re just white separatists!” It smacks of male insecurity. It’s not based on science and it’s sexist.
P.S. Heshy- if you think skirts mean your crotch is “always airy,” then maybe you should wear a long skirt for a day. Let’s add some tights onto that and see how sweaty and nasty your junk becomes after a day of walking around in what’s basically a burqa for your legs.
Being at the moment in a place that reaches 120s and ab0ve every day, where men basically wear long dress-like garments, Heshy is half right. Frum girls do tend to (mostly) layer beneath skirts in a way that kills the “airflow” benefits. Some days I wish I could dress like the locals..
I posed these questions earlier, but havent really gotten response I hope someone out there could answer this question which has intrigued me for a while. The “women of the wall” who insist on wearing tefilin and talis, do they expect their sons and husbands to wear tefilin everyday, or is that not as important to them?
secondly do they make an effort to wear tefilin daily or just when it is a public spectacle?
Thanks
First, why can’t a woman be more observant than her husband or son? Shalom Bayit would seem to trump “insisting” on the wearing of tefillin in such a case, if her “insistance” would cause strife. The question is just irrelevant.
As for how many wrap daily…a more valid question. Those of the nshot ha-kotel I know personally are rabbinical school students who do in fact wrap tefillin each day at schul. I don’t know who can answer that question for the bulk of the women; I can say that if you think that group is the only group of women who wrap tefillin and wear tallit, you are seriously misguided.
ok so instead of insist how about expect, do they expect their family memebrs to wear talis and tefilin or they couldnt care less?
I know they arent the only group but they are the most succesful at making a spectacle
You can’t draw a generalization like that about a very diverse group of women. Sorry bub.
Its ok. I guess its as i expected.
Kudos for not just saying yes they all want to get close to hashem and are very devout and have a sincere desire to do more mitzvos but alas those frummies just wont let them
Y’all a buncha fcukers. I’ll give u one BIG reason not to take on the men’s mitzvahs.
BRIS!
Be happy no one is cutting off ur shmeckle.
If the femmies really want to be like the men, gezunteheit. Start chopping.
Hahaha. Chopping what, exactly? The concept is right up there with the other comment about men and niddah
Tell that to the poor women who have been “circumcized”..
I think you are referring to genital mutilation, not the same as circumcision and, to the best of my knowledge, not having anything to do with Judaism.
I really do hate feminists in the context of Judaism not because I hate women, quite the converse-in the secular world i say- go out and get your equal pay equal vote equal everything this I dont care about. I hate Feminist in Judaism because I have an unequal disdain for Morons.
when feminists try to get involved in Religion i really have to laugh at how stupid they make there selves look. I mean its like they are forcing a square peg into a round hole and wondering what the problem is…
Judaism is Heirarchy Judaism is Differential. Read the Torah you long to Leign from. Kohanim are men Kohenim are special. Disabled people cannot enter the Beis Hamikdash. Women cannot enter the Bais Hamikdash. Men with out beans can’t either. A Kohen cannot marry a Ger or a Mamzer. G-d choose Yitzach and hated Esau, people talked against Moshe and they died. DOES ANY OF THIS BOOK SOUND FAIR TO YOU? Its all about the fact that we are different and we should be glad we are different, An AM Yisrael should just get over the fact he was not born a Cohen or a Levy…
All women in tallis and kippot- look so absurd because they are not doing it for the sake of heaven at all they are doing it for the sake of their aggenda. And they totally loose their femininity, like a bunch of bull dykes…
the feminist women just want to take everything they can from what makes a man special in Judaism, leaders. Men are to lead by listening to Hahsem, but are one tracked minded and Men are lead off track easy, we need a sign to keep us, we need tzitit, and tefilin, we need to be repetitive, we need mehitzahs. this helps establish our role as the leader as the man. When women try to take that from us, they are taking our manhood our rights of passage so to speak. when the baby cries, my wife wants to take over and make it better, because that is her natural G-d given role, I should not pull the kid from her hands to try to take over. that’s her talent.
FrumGer, I have a question for you. Would you characterize Judaism as an inherently patriarchal religion? Why or why not?
I seriously don’t think anyone truly understood the gist of this post. I am truly hoping someone did.
The point of this post was to make fun of the excuse that frummies give to women who want to do these things about being on a higher madreiga. The higher madreiga exscuse pisses me off, but I do things in subtle ways. So instead I complain about all the things I wish women had to do instead of me and throw in the higher madreiga thing, maybe I should be more obvious next time.
You people need to lighten up, you do understand that I contradict myself all of the time, yet one post and you are judging me as anti-woman and sexist. Have you not forgotten all the heat I have taken from your fellow frummies for writing some very nice things about women of the wall, Sara Hurwitz, woman rabbis and the rights of women to learn gemara, wear pants and do whatever the hell they want to do.
The whole point of this blog is to showcase a diverse array of opinions, rarely are they my own – they are just my own way of writing what people think and once in a while I get a contributor (they are mostly women for some reason) I know you folks aren’t used to having a blogger that actually puts up multiple sides of a discussion, but for some reason my traffic keeps going up despite your threats to leave after one post and never come back – that sounds insane. I don’t throw away my subscription to National Geographic because I didn’t like their article on Greenland last month.
Wait, what’d they say about Greenland?
I loled! it is funnier when people don’t get it 😛
I got your angle and thought it was totally funny! And equally funny how people missed the point. I presume most people don’t get irony.
And why limit compaints to gender. There are mitzvot specifially for Cohanim, Cohen Gadol, Levi’im, Israelim, Kings, Farm owners, Hirer’s of worker, Owners of properties, Owners of livestock, ….
Which made me think, why aren’t we all (male and female) rushing out to by donkeys in order to redeem the first born, buying chicken’s so we can have a good shoo every morning, making sure we have a roof top in order to fence it?
Donkeys to redeem their firstborn? Is that something they should be doing? I thought that the Jews were supposed to uphold all of the commandments they can in the absence of a rebuilt Temple.
http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/28102008/1776382/hardim7_wa.jpg
reediming first born donkey.
Don’t be silly, donkeys don’t do the redeeming! The sheep do it! (see 2nd para in the link below)
http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5764/tazmetz64/specialfeatures_mitzvot.htm.
Although I don’t always agree with the ideals radical feminism, as a woman I can see where they come from with their frustrations. I agree with some of the previous comments made. Its not the equality in religious obligations they are concerned about. I think it all boils down to principle. Yes I think feminists have taken it too far but you got to admit that there are practitioners of Judaism that posses a quaint chauvinistic attitude towards women. It bothers me that a man is biblically permitted to have multiple wives and that a woman cannot issue a get. It makes my blood boil when I read about rabbis castigating career women for their children’s erratic behavior ( Yes there are women who deserve to be reprimanded for it especially those who leave their children with a gentile Hispanic or Polish babysitter while going out on a shopping spree) or making a declaration that women should not pursue careers that will give them publicity for “tznius” reasons. It bothers me that certain charedi newspapers won’t include photos of women in them.Lets talk about Bar/Bat mitzvas here. I don’t care about the layning and tallis issue so there is nothing to discuss. My problem is that parents are willing to go beyond their budget to throw a lavish party for their son while a girl turning 12 has no significance in the frum community. I never understood why it was okay for a man to cross into the women’s section to talk to his wife and her friends but should I step a foot into the men’s section to tell my husband something or to get food, all hell breaks loose. Some men make excuses to go mix swimming and get away with it but a woman is breeching modesty for doing the same. I have a right to believe that certain aspects of halacha ( regarding women in particular) is borrowed from Middle Eastern culture. For instance, lets take niddah. There is no such concept of menstrual blood being impure in the West. Where else would we get the idea of menstrual impurity but from the Arabs?
If gender equality exists, then how come women are paid less in work places or less likely to get a promotion than men are?
so what? judaism is not western, it is middle eastern. israel is in the middle east, abraham was an arab from iraq. if you want a western religion take up druidism.
But most of Rabbinic Judaism (which is 99% of what we do these days) is in all honesty, western thought, not middle eastern.
speak for yourself. we’re not all from poland.
Traditional Jews from Poland don’t practice a 99% western religion either.
No, it’s not. Religious slaughter, circumcision, the incorporeal uniqueness of Hashem, ritual purity, orthopraxy over orthodoxy, dietary rules etc. are not “western” ideas, unless you count the Middle East as a part of the western world.
even monotheism is middle eastern! and western civilization is influenced by middle eastern civilizations, even greek and roman thought was passed to the west from the middle east by arabs and jews after it was destroyed in europe by christians – who also came from the middle east. if the west was uncontamnated by the middle east they would still be practising human sacrifice.
Skeptic Jewess, you wrote “Where else would we get the idea of menstrual impurity but from the Arabs?” This I can’t necessarily agree with.
From a Torah perspective, the answer to your question (“Where else but from the Arabs …?”) would be “Directly from God, that’s where.”
From a non-Torah perspective, taboos & ritual impurities surrounding menstruation have arisen all over the world in cultures & faiths totally isolated from one another.
For example, the Polynesians went so far as to stick menstruating women in an isolation hut, as did various North American native tribes.
So, while I agree it’s possible that Judaism adopted Arab notions vis-a-vis menstrual impurity, I don’t think it’s self-evident that this has to be true.
“I have a right to believe that certain aspects of halacha ( regarding women in particular) is borrowed from Middle Eastern culture. For instance, lets take niddah. There is no such concept of menstrual blood being impure in the West. Where else would we get the idea of menstrual impurity but from the Arabs?”
Borrowed from Middle Eastern culture? Both Talmud Bavli and Talmud Yerushamli were written in the Middle East! Yahadut has it’s origins in the Middle East (which by the way is not a solely Arab region), so of course our halacha is “influenced” by Middle Eastern culture.
Yerushalmi*
I second what was all ready said the most important thing is not having a Bris. I don’t see any ladies in line to get circumcized. At least no one is cutting off parts of your genitals before you can use them.
Heshy,
Sure we can take jokes. Many of your readers, including myself, read the blog when in need for a good laugh. Some of the comments were pretty funny too. However, feminists often take themselves very seriously, and egalitarianism is a sensitive topic for many. For a heated topic like this, you are bound to get many responses. You blog is meant to be edgy, and you’ve had many controversial posts, and thats why I like reading it. Just know your audience
Mahla- Yes it is a patriarchal religion. with out a doubt, but see i nor my wife see anything wrong with that. I dont rule the roost with a iron fist, and I dont think most frum families are like that. my wife gets her way most of the time, as with most families. But i am the leader still, because G-d made me the leader. The idea of equality is a non issue. Of course we are equal, but we have different roles. anyone that doesnt realize that Mama rules the roost is blind- she does. she keeps the house (the most important edifice of judaism i might add) going. we (men) deal in the shul, thats our domian, but my wife is the keeper of the home and that is where the jewish education starts, and is really taught on a personal level. Women are more important then the men, but the men lead the family… Women should look at haircovering, as their tzitzit, their dresses as their yarmulke their raising kinderloche as their learning torah, etc. they sould be happy to be what they are. as should men.
110 comments, and not one of them mentioned the obvious:
What’s a *woman* supposed to do when the Sh’ma says, in no uncertain terms, to bind HaShem’s words on your hand and between your eyes? And when the Sh’ma says that you will see the fringe and remember all HaShem’s mitzot, what’s a *woman* supposed to look at? (See here..)
I wear a tallit and tefillin because the Torah says so, and I see absolutely no *good* reason why a woman without children or whose children are grown shouldn’t be as obligated to fulfil the time-bound mitzvot as a man is.
nobody said it becasue it ahs got to be the dumbest comment in the history of dumb comments.
What do you on yoiur hand and between your eyes? are they literally on your hand and between your eyes? what color are they? waht shape? what verses are writtin within? None of these answers are found in the torah, but rather you rely on chazal’s drashas (and halacha lemoshe misinai) to tell you. Well guess what chazal tell us about women and time-bound mitzvos?
I am a feminist, I admit to that. I am all about equal opportunity and right and everything. But I agree with this. If an orthodox feminist truly looks at those commandments, we don’t have to do them because we are on a higher level spiritually. Certain things I enjoy doing, like staying up all night on Shavuos to learn and going to shacharit, but I don’t do them to prove a point. Personally, I would like to wear t’fillin, but I understand that I don’t need them to fulfill my spiritual needs. I think a true feminist can see that we aren’t being deprived of something, but we are given something better. We have the ability to be a “normal” person and be spiritual while men have to base their lives around davening 3 times a day and finding time to learn, and then their secular life. Feminist should really re-evaluate the situation because it’s not as bad as they think it is.
John- damn good response…
John, I will grant you that I’m inconsistent in terms of which rabbinical rulings I accept. Yes, I’m using traditional tefillin, of which the details of the design are not found in the Written Torah. That said, I do find it most interesting that the rabbis of old who established the fundamentals of the Jewish prayer services chose, as one of the central texts of the siddur/prayer book, Biblical quotations (the Sh’ma) that specifically mention items that are supposed to be worn to remind us of G-d, and, at the same time, exempted half the Jewish people from wearing them.
Its actually not that interesting at all. The Rabbis included shma in the prayer service becasue it is a mitzva for men to recite it twice daily. Women are exemted from wearingthe tefilin AND reciting shema, not be tthe rabbis though, exempted by god.
Look, im not trying to convince you of anything, wear what you want, just dont pretend its based on anything the Torah says
While I appreciate that not everyone is equally concerned with using appropriate grammar, correct spelling and proper capitalization ~ and I’ll save the “what’s America coming to, when people aren’t concerned with correct English when they’ve left a comment for the whole web to see ~ I would nonetheless please request that the name G-d be capitalized. I know that not everyone believes in or uses a hyphen in the Name, though I think it is proper if only because it offends some people, I hope we can all agree that G-d’s name should be capitalized, whatever name we use. Thank you.
The issue isn’t that they don’t HAVE to do the items mentioned. The issue is that they are FORBIDDEN to do the items mentioned.
lol at the tehilim on the train. female, in total agreement to all that heshy wrote on the matter
Heshy comments again and again that a woman “does not have to” do these things. By a strict interpretation, yes, I suppose he is right. Not having to do something that is burdensome is a good thing. But, if that thing is not burdensome, then not having to do it is not a benefit. And finally, if the requirement is a meaningful thing, then not being supported to do it, because one isn’t required to, is altogether not a good thing. Some of his comments were laughable; e.g., a woman not having to get up at 6:30 a.m., as if most women aren’t up at the crack of dawn anyway, if not for feeding babies, getting up with toddlers and getting the kids off to school, then it’s to go to work.
One last thing…. Am I the only one who finds phrases such as “pissed off” to be vulgar? Just because certain words have become ubiquitous, does not make them appropriate. At the very least, the use of profane words such as this, reflects poorly on the user; it indicates that one is limited in his expression and vocabulary.
I think that part of the problem is that that for most of human history, most of the big wide world has been patriarchal. Thus greater value is automatically attributed to any male activity, by both men and women.
Also there is a lot of public honor associated with men’s mitzvas that women will never receive. For westerners especially this is intolerable. However, they are missing the whole point, because we are not here to garner honors and make public shows (this applies to men too), but to serve Hashem in his way, the more modestly the better.
On the other hand, it is true that there are social aspects of some Jewish communities that are sexist. I’ve been in quite a few women’s sections that were really dirty, some with a 2m high ceiling and uncomfortable chairs. I don’t believe that there is a halacha that says that men get nice upholstered pews whilst women should be grateful if they have head space.
To S: you are mistaken. There is nothing on the list that is forbidden to women. She may get looks for wearing a tallis, but that’s about it.
And Hershey, there are some chassidic sects where the women don’t fast on minor fast days, but everyone does.
Feminism is difficult to understand if you are not a woman , for someone these things seem to be normal for other it is not. Anyway women choose their way of thinking and living.
Wow are feminists really angry? Feminists and religious women don’t really seem to go hand in hand. If you ask me-which you didn’t-but I will tell you anyway its ridiculous that Feminists complain about EVERYTHING. Now look at what feminism has done to society. Men are sissies and want to stay home with children while women work. How’s that working? Sorry to state the obvious (at least to me) most male children are becoming increasingly feminine. Look at the hairstyles, the emo vibe, the tight pants…. Men don’t emulate their own fathers anymore. Maybe that’s because their mothers seem like their fathers now. I don’t know what else could explain it. What used to be a young man’s goal-get an education, work hard, marry a nice girl, and take care of his family? Now what is it? I have no idea, but I do see a correlation between women that should be at home raising their children and a complete lack of family values that seems to be on the rise? Look at it. How many children have both their mom and dad living in the same home? The divorce rate is what 50-75 percent. What changed? Women working and men becoming less manly=children are very confused.
One comment–the separation of men and women into public and private spheres was an invention of the 18th-19th centuries–not before, and the current “privilege” given to the public sphere is a result of that separation dating from the industrial revolution/Victorian era.
Just curious, how do commentators today view the Rambam’s many sexist comments, such as to the effect of –women are similar to children (and others) that they do not have the intellectual capacity to “learn” (Torah/Gemara)?
I think sometimes the women’s section has the feeling of a “badge of inferiority” and sometimes it doesn’t. But what really angers me are the “kol isha” type arguments, which obviously view things from an explicitly male perspective (i.e. women are responsible to “control” men’s desires). I know that Judaism is a patriarchal religion, but I guess I have a lot of difficulty reconciling some aspects of it. In other ways it all depends on what community you are in, some do seem to encourage women’s participation, even within the strictures of halachah.