I don’t have that many frum gay friends, I count them all on one hand, so when I thought of the current shidduch I wasn’t working with much. I had mentioned it to both of the people involved some time ago and it just so happened that one of them was going to be visiting the others city so I figured on setting them up to meet. Kind of like the out of town single girl who gets set up with every guy that shows up in town, those gay folk have slim pickins when they want to find their shomer shabbos bashert – so naturally they will meet anyone that comes along and they just clicked.
Now of course, I may be going to hell for setting them up, but all I could think about was how happy I was for them – I was all smiles and wondering if they did get married if I could be mesader kedushin or at least get some decent shadchanus out of it. Wait, does this count as my third shidduch and ensure me into an afterlife of front row learning with Rav Moshe in Olam Habah?
I do recall when one friend kept asking me if the other was hot, as if I the straight man could really quantify the hotness of my good friend who I don’t think is hot. But I guess it was the same reaction I get when I ask a friend if his sister is hot, I hope to receive a positive answer, but if it were a quick “my sister is smoking” I may start to wonder what the guy was smoking. The fact is that neither of the dudes I set up are really my type, so I couldn’t say that either one was hot – but I did say that they both have great middos, do a lot of chesed and are koveah ittim.
Koveah ittim for what? Dude, you’re gonna burn for this, barbed pitchfork and all 🙂
What do you mean I’m not hot? I’m dead sexy.
Great post Hesh, and thanks again. 🙂
So me and Baltimore Chaim just spoke of it and we had a whole discussion of the men we would find hot we happened to be gay – with guys there is no universal hotness, you have twinks, bears, femmes and I’m sure a whole slew of other terms I am not yet familiar with. With girls the quantifying terms are much easier to see – unless we straight men have no idea what men look for in men.
I’m happy for you guys – it feels cool and it’s good to make people happy, I am not mekabel any sinning that may go on.
Ahem, if there’s sinning going on, someone is probably being mekabel.
I was away when all this good news was going on. With so few “frumgay” couples out there, it’s nice to hear of another one. Best of luck!
Not sure if I believe this; it’s too funny.
Well it’s true, but that doesn’t negate the funniness.
i doubt this is true, seems a little ?????????????????
On the one hand I am happy for them, on the other hand, unlike straight Orthodox singles who suddenly gain newly found social acceptance when they get married, a gay Orthodox couple will have an even harder time fitting into most Orthodox communities.
Oh and this couple will have an even harder times based on their statuses within the orthodox community. It’s like they are gedolim or anything, but if they came out it would shock a lot of people.
In the sense that neither is the type that after coming out everyone says “of course we knew he was gay”? Or in the sense that they are from backgrounds where being gay isn’t even on the radar?
I am sad to say that as a slightly left leaning religiously person, I can’t commend you for this act of kindness. The Torah is VERY clear about gayness not being an option. I believe that it is tragic that gay people can not find happiness in a relationship, but it is clearly assur. I don’t see any way around it. It existed at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu, and it was forbidden. We couldn’t eat pork then and we can’t eat pork now. This is not the matter of an eruv or a Shabbos clock.
In the past, I’ve set up non -Jewish gay friends. I could not help Jewish gay friends with an introduction. As An-on said, acceptance would be difficult. I will add that it would be difficult even in the few remaining modern orthodox communities.
One of the 7 mitzvot bnei noach is not to engage in immoral relationships. If you believe homosexuality is an immoral relationship that is assur, then the same goes for non-Jewish homosexuals.
Very cool. I hope they can count on more than one hand their hetero frum friends that will be as happy for them as you are.
I have become pretty understanding and sympathetic of frum gay people, as my awareness has grown.
However, if I ever set up two gay frum guys, I think it would be better if I had remained homophobic.
yep, you sound really sympathetic and understanding.
I knew some moron would say that.
You think that it is impossible to understand unless you accede to their every desire.
That is not remotely what i think. However it is rather telling that you say it would be better if you remained homophobic.
It would be better if I was a gypsy.
Is that better?
The real answer is, that perhaps there are reasons why societies alienate other peoples.
Sometimes, it is during war, and they demonize the enemy to make it more palatable when they kill their kids and burn their cities.
I do not personally think that we should alienate frum gay people.
However, this post got me thinking. If acceptance leads to facilitating issure kares, perhaps it is a good idea to set up an alienation.
That is why I chose the example I did.
in general i’m all for gay rights, meaning gay men and women deserve to be treated the same as everyone else and not be harrassed because of their preferences. however, i see how the open-mindedness of society has led to its “brains falling out,” as i have heard some rabbi’s warn (jokingly) might happen if you are too open minded. acceptance and tolerance are very important for society, we have no right to judge others. but we have no business encouraging and even facilitating an immoral lifestyle. there is a line between not judging and actively participating, and like most of secular society, you have crossed that line, heshy. so while you joke that you are not “mekabel” any wrongdoing, in fact you were the shadchan its all in your merit.
although i have to admit, last line of this post was really, really funny!
First of all, it is not a issur kares, it is skila. Kares is very likely a much worse punishment for doing something like a straight boy sleeping with a nida lets say. What it sounds like you are actually saying is that if they do not accede to YOUR every desire they should be alienated. Alienated to a point comparable to enemies in a war. Makes me wonder if you ever really stopped being homophobic in the first place. But all in all you sound like a real sympathetic and understanding guy.
you are most ciertinly going to hell if they start having illicit gay sex, weather or not that is fair or not is another story
Kal Vachomer if they are having kosher gay sex it’s cool – like if they do it in the mikvah or something
Haha! Awesome post! That last paragraph was classic. I’m straight and I know I have a not entirely artistic fascination with Leonardo Dicaprio
Frum and gay are a complete contradiction to each other, Frum by definition means you follow Shulchan Aruch which is completely anti gay.
You might be able to convince urself that “it’s just who you are” but for goodness sake don’t try to pretend ur still a Frum Jew, wearing a black hat (even if it’s not your color) doesn’t change a thing.
Frum by who’s definition means one only follows the Shulchan aruch? And are you telling me every Jew- gay or straight- follow everything the Shulchan aruch says? Think again. We all strive to, including the frum gay Jews- me beig one of them- to follow Halacha as best we can. No one is perfect and no one can decide for another what is or is not a considered frum.
Do you even know what Frum means?
I don’t mean shut out everyone who decides they are gay but don’t convince urself that they made the choice and Judaism will just change to go along with
No one makes the “Choice” to be gay. You’re born that way or you aren’t. For the record, there are plenty of gay male couples who practice 0ral rather than tuchus sex, and there are plenty of Orthodox rabbinic interpretations that the halakhic forbidding of gay sex is specifically only referring to the tuchus kind.
To those who say HaShem wouldn’t create gays, and that it’s a choice–how do you explain the fact that homosexuality has been exhibited in every species of animal whose sexuality has been studied in depth? We know animals don’t have choices. If HaShem created gay animals, why would we think he wouldn’t have created gay humans? Because it’s forbidden? Please. One specific act is forbidden. Not whole relationships.
I also made a gay shidduch once when I was in college. It lasted over 20 years until one of them passed away. It happens to be one of the things I’m most proud of.
To the couple Heshy fixed up: I wish you much mazel.
To Heshy, Kol ha kavod, dude. You rock!
Batsheva,
Since when is gay oral s*x OK? Do you have a source for this in shulchan aruch? How would your husband feel if you were blowing the mailman?
Halachically, setting frum gay people up is a terrible act. Every time sin together, you are partially responsable.
It’s morally equivalent to offering booze or drugs to a recovering alcoholic or junkie.
As for the shidduch you made, you have absolutely nothing to be proud of. In fact, you should be crying over the fact that you caused 2 people to sin for 20 years.
I could not agree more with Yoreh K’chetz, above.
Homosexuality is among the forbidden relations. Same-sex-loving is forbidden for both genders and even more so for men. It’s in the category of yaharog v’al y’avor, forbidden for all humanity, not just the Jewish people!
Yes, it’s a nisayon people have, myself included, and we must battle our yetzer the same way you heteros must fight your nature to limit your gazing and intimacy with women to ONE woman, your wife.
Heshy, you are a Yid, a prince of Israel, a descendant of the Avos Hakdoshim, and more recently, the holy Baal Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. I think all four of those tzaddikim would be horrified by your setting up two men together.
If you expressed public regret for doing so in a future blog entry it would be a major kiddush-Hashem.
I could not agree more with Yoreh K’chetz, above.
Homosexuality is among the forbidden relations. Same-sex-loving is forbidden for both genders and even more so for men. It’s in the category of yaharog v’al y’avor, forbidden for all humanity, not just the Jewish people!
Yes, it’s a nisayon people have, myself included, and we must battle our yetzer the same way you heteros must fight your nature by limiting your gazing and intimacy with women to ONE woman, your wife.
Heshy, you are a Yid, a prince of Israel, a descendant of the Avos Hakdoshim, and more recently, the holy Baal Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. I think all four of those tzaddikim would be horrified by your setting up two men together.
If you expressed public regret for doing so in a future blog entry it would be a major kiddush-Hashem.
As a person with an MA (and “ABD” as they say) in animal behavior I have to refute the animal comment. SOME animals when in a situation in which they cannot pair with animals of the opposite sex MAY form some relationships with animals of the same sex that MAY (or may not) include some semi-sexual behaviors. There are NO mammals that when given access to appropriate mates of the opposite sex will choose instead to engage in full-on sexual behavior with animals of the same sex.
This of course doesn’t say anything about humans. Humans have extremely sophisticated behaviors that have extremely complex origins. Look at language, for example. So I will grant you that nobody knows why some people have a sexual orientation to the same sex. Studies suggest that this is a lot more of a “choice” in women than in men — that is, women can more easily shift the object of their attraction. But even assuming that by some certain age this is an essentially fixed behavior in human males (at least) that does not mean: 1) it’s “normal” (it obviously isn’t, depending what “normal” means) 2) it doesn’t have a major developmental component (for example, hormonal exposure in the womb or social experiences during childhood) 3) it’s not dysfunctional.
You can think of lots of behaviors which could have similar genetic/developmental origins which are clearly dysfunctional — alcoholism being one that springs to mind. While alcoholism is now viewed through a medical rather than a moral model, nobody would think that inviting an alcoholic out to a bar would be a good thing to do.
So the question concerning gayness is not: “Is it a choice? Because if not everyone has to accept it” but “Is it dysfunctional? Is it bad for the people who engage it in? Or for anybody else?” Now the endless drumbeat of the gay agenda is so loud that it’s no longer acceptable to even pose that last question. And unfortunately that mindset is probably the number one most harmful thing about homosexuality — so that our society has completely bought into the mantra that “behavior between consenting adults (or consenting mammals for that matter) is all the same, all acceptable, all holy and blessed because the only thing destructive about any behavior whatsoever is lack of consent.”
Excellent post—would’ve liked to see this in other, more serious contexts. It’s probably the first time I’ve seen someone present some sober, balanced *facts* on the issue.
I’m not sure how it is relevant whether Hashem created gays, or whether it is acquired. And if it is voluntary or involuntary.
The homosxual act is clearly assur, and other sxual acts are clearly assur as well under lo sikrivu.
But, if you must know, chazal say that the animals in the time of the mabul practiced homosxuality, because animals do whatever aveiros we do. And the people of the time were doing it.
I don’t have the citation for this, buy I’m trying to find it on google.
Hashem did not put us here to judge someone elses relationship with Him. Being religious refers to your relationship to G-d. So basically if you are not one of the two gay people in the relationship, keep your opinions to yourself because when you die and go to shamayim, Hashem is not going to ask you if you made sure to comment on a blog about someone else’s personal decision that really had no affect on you whatsoever. Treat others how you would want to be treated.
If you were correct, then you should also not be commenting about my commenting. Unless you are me.
It is my personal decision that really has no effect on you whatsoever.
“I did say that they both have great middos”
Wasn’t “middos” a defined term?
https://www.frumsatire.net/2011/03/30/the-magic-words/#more-9646
Hesh, I think you’ve unwittingly put your finger on the next CRISIS: it’s the frum gay dating crisis. Oy! (I could go on and on about it)
I’m actually waiting for one of the gedolei hador to come out of the closet and send the frum community into a whirlwind of debate.
That would really be epic!
Why do gay ppl feel the need to announce their gayness? Labeling themselves as gay. Straight ppl definitely don’t make proclamations and parades ect. about being straight. If you have a problem and you are gay deal with it. But why does everyone else have to know about your problem? (Especially if your frum, and don’t plan on acting on it)
The majority never needs to identify themselves. For example there is no “white culture.” However the minority will identify themselves. E.g. black culture. So of course straight people don’t need to identify themselves.
The majority never needs to identify themselves. For example there is no “white culture.” However the minority will identify themselves. E.g. black culture. So of course straight people don’t need to identify themselves.
You could not be more wrong.
Straight people make announcements about being straight all the time. Straight people label themselves as straight on a daily basis. You simply do not notice it because you are straight.
Every time a guy comments on a pretty girl, or a girl holds her boyfriend’s hand they are proclaiming their straightness. People are barraged on an almost continuous basis with all things straight. Billboards, movies, television, advertising etc. Stop for a moment and try to notice all the proclamations and anouncements that straight people make and look at it from a different perspective. Then see if you are so quick to tell people to remain in the closet.
So true. It always surprises me that most people don’t get this point.
I never realized this until I hung out with someone who was out of the closet to me but not other folks we were hanging around – our straightness is constantly announced and these in the closet folks have to live a constant lie.
Just like civil rights, in 50 years we will look back at ourselves and wonder why we were so ignorant.
Amen.
Uch! High school felt as if I was in a “parade about being straight” — one that lasted several years, actually.
You’re sound like you’re probably also tired of hearing the problems faced by the black community and other minorities. Why should Jews announce their Jewishness? Wouldn’t it be much easier to hide that and assimilate?
Why do you feel the need to announce your hetero status?
I am sensing some wording confusion here, so let’s ditch the term ‘frum’ for a moment. No, it is not up to anyone to decide what makes someone ‘religiously devoted.’ That can mean many different things to many different people. It IS however, up to the Shulchan Aruch, or at the very least, the Gemara, to determine what ‘keeping halacha’ and ‘being an observant orthodox jew’ mean. Those who are not orthodox have other ways of determining that, but orth. judaism is rabbinic judaism.
Even so, the prohibition of being gay is not rabbinic at all. It is a straight up sentence in the torah. (No pun intended.) To be fair, however, it is not BEING gay that is prohibited, it is the act of a man sleeping with a man that is prohibited. I may be wrong about this (please correct me if I am), but I think that a man is allowed to be attracted to other men so long as he never actually acts on it. (Laws of tznius and shmiras einayim notwithstanding.) It is a very sad and painful thing for someone to be homosexual yet observant, and therefore never be able to properly find his soul-mate. It is equally sad when someone grows up with a psychological problem and cannot help but steal things. I am NOT comparing the two- my point is that whether it is biological or psychological, the response is the same: we have to be sympathetic and try to ease the pain of the situation, or help the person out of the situation if possible, but it is never PERMITTED to violate anything. Gay sex is not allowed, plain and simple. Breaking shabbos is not allowed, eating pig is not allowed, stealing money is not allowed, and eating orlah is not allowed. Unless you can argue that it’s pikuach nefesh or ones, you are out of luck.
But let’s get real again, nobody keeps everything. We don’t say its ALLOWED when we break something (some ppl do and that is just as stupid). We all screw up. So it doesn’t mean that we have to hate gays and tell them to rot in hell. We can try to empathize with their struggle and help them. Hopefully they will find a way to stay observant in the other areas of halacha and not ditch religion entirely because they felt that nobody wanted them there. On the same note, we also cannot make some statement that gay sex is a permitted option. We do not publicly promote chillul shabbos, nor should we promote any other sin.
Apologies if I offended anyone gay with this.
LetsBeHonest,
I think you have a considerate and respectful way of saying things, you’re not being offensive. But what you’re saying boils down to “love the dog, hate the barking” — that might work as a theory, but it doesn’t in real life. I thought the whole point of the “rabbinic” part of “rabbinic Judaism” was to make sure Halachah is in touch with life, within people’s reach. So, for example, eating pork is forbidden, but when a pregnant woman has a craving for roasted pig she is allowed to have it, first sucking the juices with a straw, and then actually eating it, if she insists. (I just thought of a silly example, but there are many more.) If there were real understanding and real sympathy for the predicament of gay Jews, the rabbis would say (for example): ok, the big no-no is clearly off limits, but we can make a compromise and allow this other stuff.
Fs Fan,
Good thing your not a rabbi. The arayot rate in the top severe sins, along with idol worship and murder. Incest and bestiality are on the same level, but I have yet to hear anyone making a case for being more lenient when it comes to those transgressions.
Every time Hesh post’s something relating to this topic, it seems to be the same stupid “halacha should accept them” mantra written by MAINLY by people that are completely ignorant when it comes to halacha.
Any REAL rav will NEVER give a heter to gay couples or other arayot to engage in ANYTHING at all. They are not there to reform the religion to cater to the needs of every twisted pervert or deviant.
The reason a pregnant woman is allowed treif is because she and the child are deemed in physical danger. Name me one confirmed case of a gay dudes testicles exploding due to abstinence.
Name one case of a pregnant woman who was in any real health danger at all because she didn’t eat what she was craving for.
FS Fan,
I’m no rabbi nor a doctor. One thing is for sure: If the rabbis allow a pregnant women to eat pork on yom kippur because of a craving, they sure as sh*t have a good reason to do so.
That is not my understanding of rabbinic Judaism.
That is my understanding of reform.
Dan, the ideas that I’ve mentioned are 100% rabbinic (Orthodox) Judaism. Maybe not a side of it that we hear much about these days, though.
Look, you obviously aren’t remotely observant, so why do you feel like you need to also redefine my religion?
If you don’t want to keep it, don’t. But leave my Judaism alone.
And if you are observant, I haven’t the foggiest idea why. If you think the whole thing is made up, what value could it possibly have?
Yeah, I agree with Dan on this. Rabbinic Judaism does not entail making forbidden things permitted. There are cases when rabbis try to find legal loopholes to make things easier, but that is only when the alternative is that people will violate the law anyway. (And it only works if they actually find a legal loophole. It has to be legit.)
If I am not mistaken, the case of a pregnant woman being allowed to eat something non-kosher is predicated on the assumption that it is life-threatening if she doesn’t satisfy her craving. Like I said above, if you can make a case that it is pikuach nefesh or ones, then you might have a shot. Or, if you can make a (legitimate) case via some loophole that oral is ok like Yoreh K’chetz said above, then you might have a shot. Otherwise it is not orthodox Judaism to allow an issur once it becomes inconvenient or even worse. There needs to be a legal backing. To do it without legal backing is the practice of reform and the like.
I do not rule out the possibility that there is a legit legal loophole, but I have not heard one to date. Of course, being as this isn’t something I need to deal with, I also haven’t looked for it. If anyone knows of one, feel free to share. It’s got to be a convincing/legit case though.
Well, ok, a craving for a relationship by a gay person for a person of the same gender is at least as life-threatening as a pregnant woman’s craving for a particular food.
If a person is in love with another person, particularly another single person who also loves them back, but is told they can’t be with that person, it’s a huge, ever-present stress. This is bad for the blood pressure, the heart, and other things. People under this kind of stress are more likely to have heart attacks, strokes, and other life-threatening physical consequences.
Thus, rabbinic Judaism would, using the same logic, allow gay sex to gay people who are not married to other people and who are in love with each other.
Susan,
Your comparison is interesting, but compare with what the Rambam rules:
A guy becomes lovesick / infatuated with an unmarried woman to the point where he becomes physically sick and is on the verge of death. The doctor says only cure is for him to have s*x with her. Even though premarital s*x is only a rabbinic prohibition, we don’t allow it. Furthermore, if the doctor says he may get better just by talking to her, we still forbid it, even if she’s on the other side of a wall where he can’t see her!
If Rambam rules this regarding a natural relationship, how much more so should gay people remain forbidden from practicing any form of intimacy.
Again, I’m no rabbi, but I doubt any REAL rabbi or rav would give any sort of allowances.
Rambam is not infallible. I forgive him for making this mistake.
And to the guy who said to show him one gay man whose testicles exploded because he wasn’t allowed to have sex with another man: Show me one pregnant woman whose womb exploded becasuse she wasn’t allowed to have a piece of pork.
Susan,
I doubt anyone’s womb exploded, but the rabbis have many rulings throughout the Torah where health issues override strict halacha, Shabbat & kosher are a few examples.
When it comes to s*x, they obviously found that abstinence isn’t considered a health hazard. In fact, it was considered healthy to abstain as much as possible in those days.
And while many priests have been caught in less than desirable situations, I’m sure there must be a few that managed to maintain their chastity without having heart attacks or committing suicide.
So, let’s do a study. If it shows that gay men who refrain from gay sex have a higher rate of high blood pressure, depression, heart attacks, etc., than gay men who are in a healthy, committed sexual relationship, then we know that chastity is harmful to their health and we know we ought to make an exception for them.
Just because a some men happen to survive while chaste doesn’t mean it isn’t harming the health of some or even the majority.
Susan,
Why stop there? How about taking a guy that likes watching a certain sporting event or show on Saturday, shuting it off and taking his blood pressure. If it goes up, we can then have the rabbis allow watching the sports channel instead of going to synagogue.
Or how about a guy that loves eating shrimp. Put a plate of shrimp in front of him when he’s hungry, see if he craves it enough to have the rabbis tell him it’s OK.
I can go on and on, but I think you get the point.
I’ll take it a step futher and say that being gay is probably more hazardous to health than being chaste, they have much higher chances of catching contagious / transmittable diseases.
Hey. don’t get mad at me. I didn’t start this nonsense. It was started by the rabbis who made the mistake of saying a pregnant woman could eat pork because not satisfying her craving would somehow be bad for her health. Your example with the TV and shrimp is no worse that that.
I’d say this shows the rabbis who made these rules were not infallible, and to follow their every word without question and to reject any attempt to reverse or amend what they said based on new knowledge is a mistake.
And FYI, gay people in a committed monogomous relationship are no more at risk of disease than straight people in a committed monogomous relationship.
Susan,
OK. So now you’re a posek who’s learned enough to deteremine that the rabbis who wrote talmud didn’t know what theiy were talking about.
I guess the next step is to me me that one could drive to shul on shabbat if it’s too far to walk, after all the rabbis didn’t know about cars. Heck, why even bother going to shul, after all, isn’t it those same rabbis that started that?
You are obviously ignorant of talmudic exegis (did I spell that right?) and haven’t studied how talmudic discourse are structured and derived.
Suffice to say that even if you may be morally correct in your views, but you’re 100% wrong when it comes to halacha.
The arayot (forbidden relatioships) are among the hardest to follow. If the rabbis could find a way to permit a pregnant woman to eat pork instead of just having her eat beef instead, don’t you think they would have found a way to permit forbidden relationships?
Susan,
Re: the diseases, I didn’t compare them to monogamous relationships, I compared the to abstinence. There is no doubt that one who abstains is less at risk, from common cold and stomach flu to STD’s.
I can’t answer below because we’ve had too many replies, I guess.
I don’t claim to be a posek. I’m just saying we should recognize that the men who wrote these things were not infallible, and we should go ahead and keep re-interpreting the laws, as we always have, based on the knowledge we have now. We should also recognize that we all, as human being, rationalize things to the fit the way we see the world.
I never said the rabbis who wrote the Talmud didn’t know what they were talking about. Clearly, they were very educated men in their time. I do say they made some mistakes, like all human beings do. Some of those mistakes were made because they didn’t know some of the things we know now about health and other issues. So let’s take an objective look at those things, and make revisions as needed. There is nothing wrong with that; it’s a tradition in Judaism to revise the laws as we learn more about the world around us.
I’m glad we agree that gay people aren’t more prone to disease than non-gay people.
Susan,
This issue has been brought up to modern rabbis many times. None have permitted anything intimate to happen between 2 men in any case, no matter how etreme or unfortunate the guys felt.
All they did was come out with a politically correct sounding statement about how they are still human, and shouldn’t be banned from attending shul.
Don’t you think that modern poskim would have come up with a heter a long time ago if they could?
So the Pope is incredibly ill and on the point of death and a doctor comes and diagnoses him and he says that the only cure is for the Pope to have sex with a woman.
So the Pope says: “That’s impossible. I’ve sworn sacred vows to remain celibate. If I were to break my vows and it were to be found out, the scandal could destroy the Church that I have been given divine charge of.”
The doctor says: “But consider the state of the Church at the present moment — the ultra right-wing challengers from the Society of St. Pius X, Hans Kung and the left-wingers denying papal infallibility, the Jesuits running amok. You’ve been a strong and cohesive pope dealing with all these matters. If you were to die now it could be a terrible blow for the Church.”
“OK” says the Pope, “I’ll do it for the Church. Go and find a woman. But make sure she’s blind.”
“Blind? Why”
“Well, obviously so she can’t see that she’s coming to the Vatican to sleep with the Pope. If she ever told anyone it would be a disaster.”
“OK, I see. We’ll try to find a blind woman.”
“And she should be deaf.”
“Why deaf?”
“Well, obviously if she hears people calling me “Your Holiness” she’ll know what’s going on.”
“OK, yes, I agree.”
“And she should be unable to speak or write.”
“You’ve lost me on that one. Why??”
“Just in case she does figure out what’s going on, she’ll be unable to communicate with the press.”
“Good point. I hadn’t thought of that.”
“And she should have huge boobs.”
“Why??”
“I like them that way.”
Haha! Here’s the Jewish version:
Every Friday afternoon, a pious chossid sees his Rebbe cutting his nails after the mikva and finally bucks up enough courage to ask why. The Rebbe tells him to fast for 30 days, repent, and come back to him afterwards. The pious chossid does this and after 30 days comes back and says, “Nu, Rebbe, what’s the reason for this custom?”
“That’s when my nails are soft.”
Susan:
Assuming your facts in arguendo, the Forbidden Sxual relationships are among the sins we are supposed to die before transgressing.
So no, there would not be any dispensation.
LBH, I agree with you, maybe I wasn’t clear. What I tried to say is, rabbis (not me) should argue, find loopholes, etc. and for example allow oral. I don’t think that allowing some form of sexual activity for gay men (considering pikuach nefesh in the light of modern psychology etc.) is any less legit than it was to allow a pregnant woman to eat treif because she has a craving. But I’m not a posek.
Correction: Yoreh K’chetz was against the oral thing. Batsheva was for it.
Letsbehonest,
I’m not against oral, halacha is. If 2 non Jews want to go at it, they can do so all they want as far as I’m concerned. They aren’t bound by halacha, an one can hardly expect them to follow Noahide law these days.
It just gets on my nerves when ignorant Jews that think they mean well come up with completely false politically correct heteirim to accomodate deviant perverts.
The only thing that’s prohibited is two men having anal sex with each other.
I’m not offended, but I do think you’re a bigot and haven’t done enough thinking.
Ilanit,
Blablabla, I’ve heard the same thing hundreds of times, I’m a bigot for not accepting gays into Judaism, and I’m a KKK nazi for making jokes about blacks or dumb blonds.
I don’t make the laws, I just tell them like they are. Fact is that all s*x or other intimate acts outside marriage remain prohibited by halacha. Whether it’s 2 men or a guy and his girlfriend going to 1st, 2nd or 3rd base, it’s all illegal. Read Shulchan or Mishneh Torah if you won’t take my word for it.
A unmarried straight guy is in exactly the same boat as the gay guy when it comes to following halacha. Both are forbidden do do anything s*xual, alone or with partners. If the straight guy can’t find a wife, he’ll be stuck in that situation even though it’s not necessarily his fault (ie he’s butt ugly, handicap, mentaly ill, etc.).
In my book, the openly gay person deserves less sympathy than one that is ill, as he had the option to keep his feelings in the closet where they belong. I have no respect for a gay person that tries to justify his actions within halacha. If they want to sin, that’s their problem, but don’t try to twist the Torah to suit your perverted agenda.
Ilanit are you referring to me?
Which part of my post was bigoted?
– That I hate gay people? I clearly said I do not.
– That I said the Torah prohibits gay relations? It is an open sentence in sefer Vayikra. Two of them actually, 18:22 and 20:13:
????? ????? ??? ????????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ????
??????? ?????? ????????? ??? ????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ????????? ???? ???????? ????????? ????
If it is bigoted that the Torah says that, your problem is with the Torah – not with me.
– Is it that I don’t think there can be any explanation that allows for any type of leniency? I clearly said above that I am open to hearing such an explanation, so long as the argument can be proven via normal halachic processes.
– Or is it that I don’t think there is room for leniency when it cannot be proven via normal halachic processes? If this is bigoted, then yes, I am bigoted. You are free to reinterpret the Torah as you wish but do not call that orthodox. In orthodoxy, one must prove their case via legitimate legal arguments, not political correctness.
It just so happens that I have nothing against other races/religions/sexual orientations. I am not bigoted at all. Frankly, though, I do not care if I AM bigoted. I follow the Torah and halacha as best I can, I think through all of my opinions carefully, and I am always open to adjusting those opinions when they are proven to be wrong. I do not, however, care about being politically correct in my views. (Though, obviously I will not run around broadcasting insulting views – there are still social norms that respectful people abide by.)
Several people have mentioned a leniency with oral relations. Like I said before, if you know of such a ruling, please share. What is it based on? A pasuk, a midrash, chazal, rishonim? Or is it a recent ruling by an orthodox rabbi? If so, who said it? Was it a ruling given to an individual under specific circumstances (perhaps to someone who was on the verge of leaving orthodoxy altogether because of conflicting feelings about religion and sexuality)? Or was it a ruling for all of the Jewish community to follow? Do other rabbis concur with the interpretation?
Simply stating it is ‘okay’ is not a legal argument. I trust that you have a source, so please- do tell. If I am wrong, I will gladly change my opinion.
Also, if I am wrong and you weren’t referring to me when you said someone was bigoted, then I apologize. My thoughts will still stand though.
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)
“And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)
The hebrew letters apparently didn’t come through, so here is an English translation.
The hebrew letters apparently didn’t come through, so here is an English translation.
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)
“And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)
Ilanit:
How does ignorance translate into bigotry?
Don’t you see how that de-legitimizes your argument when your immediate fallback is hurling slurs like bigot?
(Besides for that other s*xual acts happen to be prohibited, so you actually are incorrect)
Just a note about the whole oral thing:
Yoreh K’chetz pointed out that gay folks are not alone in their inability to have s*xual release. ANYONE unmarried to a woman, for any reason, is not allowed s*xual release. An unmarried man (say someone who is just naturally unattractive) would certainly feel stressed about it. Married people live longer than unmarried, if I am not mistaken. So why cant we allow them to get s*xual release on their own (m*sturbation)? The answer is that it is unfortunate that the person cannot find a mate, but spilling seed is prohibited anyway.
Sure, the scenarios are not exactly identical, but I’d imagine that even if one were to find a way to defend oral via halacha in context of gay relations, I think it would be prohibited from the standpoint of spilling seed. I believe oral is prohibited for heteros as well.
I don’t quite see how it could be allowed… Still willing to hear a defense though. Educate me.
Correction: Oral is prohibited for heteros as a permanent alternative to the kind that would impregnate someone. It is (arguably) permissible as a secondary means of relations. The prohibition of spilling seed stems from Yehuda’s sons and Tamar, whose actions were intended to avoid getting Tamar pregnant. As a primary means of relations, oral is certainly prohibited for heteros.
So, regardless of whether oral is included in the prohibition against gay relations, it is prohibited from the standpoint of spilling seed. Unless, of course, you argue that since there is no possibility to impregnate during gay relations, the entire concept is irrelevant.
However, you can argue back that since there is no Jewish concept of ‘marriage’ between two men (in the spiritual sense, since anyone can make a contract), any time that two ‘married’ men are having relations it is no different than two unmarried men having relations. For unmarried men, m*sturbation and oral are certainly prohibited under the rule of spilling seed. It doesn’t matter if 1 person or 100 people are doing it together. Therefore, two ‘married’ men would also have the same prohibition apply.
Once again, I do not see how there is any heter for oral. People here seem to be convinced otherwise though, so please – share your sources.
aww, though “great middos, do a lot of chesed and are koveah ittim” seems to be a generic description for any guy who doesn’t plan to learn for a thousand years.
not funny
Dan l’kaf zchut that you are joking because otherwise…
that is completely antiethical.
Kol ha Kavod, Hesh! You rock! I made a gay shidduch once. Lasted over 20 years until one of them died. I’m not even going to read all the hateful posts that I know are probably filling your comments here.
To the couple, I wish you much mazel! You’re going to need it in the frum community.
There is no gay. If it’s pretty, shtupp it.
call me crazy but i’m with heshy on this one. i’m not sure how shomer negiah will work on this, but i suppose they should be expected not to have any sex before they are “married”. to me, it would be a much greater sin for one of them to pretend they are straight and marry a woman, only to break her heart. plus, if they adopt, and can convert the kids, they can fulfill the commandment to be fruitful and multiply. there are so many aspects to consider, but the fact that we can even discuss this really shows how wonderful this religion really is— that every person does their own torah study and is able to discuss controversial topics like this, versus in other religions where the clergy tells you what to believe and no questions are asked.
An Orthodox rabbi will not convert the kids if the family is not completely observant. And so if the couple is having homosexual relations, he is not going to convert the kids. So there’s no happy ending to a story like this.
well, the thing is there’s nowhere in the torah that says being gay is a sin. it does say “don’t have sex with a man as you would with a woman”. that would imply anal sex. besides your own personal ‘ew’ factor, if the gay couple was not having anal sex there is nothing about their relationship that would be assur according to halakah.
and @Dan
uh, because they are orthodox and you aren’t supposed to give yourself away sexually before you get married.
@daniel
Why in the world should they not have s*x before they are “married”?
just my 2 cents…
god created adam & eve, not adam & steve
“if it rhymes, it must be true”
– rambam
Adam was a hermaphrodite when he was created. G-D removed a rib to make Eve. Had G-D removed two ribs Eve would have been obsolete.
Hesh-
I know you’re well meaning, and a frum person who feels SSA is definitely in a challenging position – which I don’t judge or envy. However, you are completely over an issur d’orisa of lifnei iver on this one.
If these guys care about halacha, imagine the tyvos they’re going to have to fight against if they want to consumate their feelings for one another….
Like all halachos, lifnei iver is no exception to being limited and restricted with all sorts of technical boundaries as to what constitutes biblical and rabbinic transgressions.
To begin, lifnei iver is subject to the restriction of trei avre d’nahara, or “two sides of a river.” This limitation is mentioned in the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 6b) in the context of one who provides a nazir with wine, and he is on one side of the river and the enabler gives him passage without which the nazir would not be able to transgress the violation of consuming the wine. Without such a scenario, the transgression may be only rabbinical in nature.
And in the realm of rabbinically prohibited lifnei iver might only be violated if one takes on the role of an enabler b’sha’as ma’aseh, or “at the time of the sin.” If one serves as an enabler on Monday morning and the enabled sinner sins on Monday evening or Wednesday afternoon, the enabler’s prohibition might also suffer devaluation.
This conversation has shown that there are 3 ways that observant Jews thing about homosexuality:
1) It’s absoulutely assur and that’s just the way it is
2) The Torah didn’t really mean what it says and that there are ways of kvetching the peshat to make it mean that gay sex is not assur
3) The Torah says gay sex is assur. That being said, I’m going to ignore the Torah on that one, because my gay friends deserve happiness.
I’m in #3. The Torah is an ancient document written by humans, (with some divine inspiration, I’d like to think,) and reflects an ancient prohibition against homosexuality. And as much as I love & respect the Torah, why should that mean that I have the right to tell gay friends that they should be miserable, or why should it even mean that I shouldn’t be happy for them? I love practicing Judaism, but on this issue, Judaism is out of date.
Then you’re not Orthodox because to be Orthodox you need to believe in Torah MiSinai. You’re choosing to not observe the Torah commandment, which makes you Reform.
Anonimo –
Do you stone to death unruly children? If not, you’re choosing not to observe a Torah commandment. By your logic, then, you’re not Orthodox either.
Susan,
There you go again with ignorant comments. The “rebelious son” is practically impossible. In fact, never was such a case documented.
In order to qualify as a rebelious son, the son had to be between 13 and 13.5 years of age, had to steal money from his parents, use that money to buy meat and wine from the vat. He then had to eat the meat medium rare in a few gulps, wash it down with a large quantity of the wine, while sitting in company of bad people. His parents had to warn him against this beforehand. The valid witnesses had to warn him of the consequences 4 seconds before he ate and drank, then testify against him in court.
All of this is alluded to in the verses stating the law, but to someone that doesn’t know any better, it sounds like the Torah tells us to stone “unruly kids” to death.
Yoreh K’Chetz –
Please try to refrain from insults.
Those rules that you list to define an unruly child were made up by the rabbis in order to make sure kids weren’t killed. They took something vague in the Torah and pretended it was much more specific to do this. Some of it may be alluded to, but it clearly goes far beyond what is actually written in the Torah.
My point is, if they wanted to, they could just as easily make up the same kind of rules about not lying with another man. They could say, “It only applies if the man penetrates the vaginal canal of another man” since the verse clearly says to lie with a man “as with a woman” which clearly means penetrating her vaginal canal.
So if they can rule it’s impossible to find an unruly son they can also rule it’s imposible for a man to lie with another man as he would lie with a woman.
We all choose what commandments we want to follow, and then we try to justify our actions by reading what we want to into the Torah. Some of us are just more willing than others to admit it.
I know it’s not orthodox but purely as an example I have heard of conservative teshuvot that interpret this passage as “a man shall not lie with another man ( for the purpose of avodah zara)” or rule that gay couples must be presumed by the community to not be having sex unless they do it in public with witnesses. Could similar loopholes be made for just about anything? of course. That’s why it is the rabbis job to interpret halakha for each generation, no?
If the rebellious son laws, the laws of Tzara’as and countless other laws which were found to be too harsh can be legislated away so can this, all that is necessary is wide consensus.
Yes, if the Sanhedrin were here and ruled that on a rebellious son, I would stone him. Crying.
You’re choosing to not observe the Torah commandment
Actually, I’m not personally ignoring the Torah commandment. I happen to be straight. I’m just not caring if my friends ignore it.
congrats on being a decent human being!
The comments here remind me why I’m no longer frum, I need things like this every once in a while to reaffirm my faith
To summarize my last comment: Are you a Jew only, or are you a human being who is also a Jew? I’m the latter, and it makes a huge difference on how I look at these issues.
Except that as of 3:37 pm EST, my last comment hasn’t posted yet. Probably the word “secs” (misspelled here) got it caught in the moderation filter.
Yeah I was just wondering about that. You had me looking up and down the page. Then you posted your follow-up to your follow-up.
Philo,
Congratulations on being a human being. You may tell your gay friend how bad you feel for or sympathize with him, accept him in your home or shul and even hug him if it makes you happy.
Doesn’t change halacha one iota. The law is the law, every time your friend acts out on his desires in any way, shape, or form, he’s transgressing it. Setting him up with others like him would make your partially responsible for anything they do. It’s that simple.
I know one frum gay couple. If all goes well I’ll be at their wedding in the next year or two.
I guess I’ll be seeing you in hell!
WTF?! Seriously dude I like you and your blog but this is crossing the line. This is neither Frum nor satire. ‘Scuse me while I go barf…
agreed
1) we need to stop chasing our gay brethren away to marry Schkutzim… Intermarrige is at an all time high. We need to keep it in the tribe
2) who else is gonna decorate the shul?
3) you think there were never male tag teams in the Torah?
4)As long as they wrap it up, who cares?
5) As someone who has known these 2 fine fellas for over 10 years… Thanks Hesh… Good Job 🙂
I heard G-D gave gay sex the thumbs up as long as they do it through the “Mizvah Sheet”
Is anyone else wondering what orthodox Rabbi would marry a gay couple? it seems a kind of oxymoron to me. Question for orthodox homosexuals: would companionship be enough without marriage? or is that a naive thought?
Courtney,
We have a Jewish gay activist in Montreal that’s already been married through a reform rabbi, and isn’t observant at all. He’s been trying unsuccessfully to get an orthodox “confirmation” ceremony for years.
He dragged the media into his story, attempting to make orthodox Judaism look bad. I really don’t see what he’s trying to achieve besides trying to cause problems.
The comments here remind me why I’m not frum anymore, I just wonder if these people realize how insane they sound and also how they would react if they were gay.
The entire debate in the comments here boils down to one point. On the surface it seems like we are debating the halachic status of gay relations but that debate has long passed. That is a leaf that we are hacking at. The real debate is where the trunk/branches diverge from each other.
Historically, the way of interpreting the prohibition against gay relations in the Torah has been prohibiting all of it. The question is what happens in light of modern research that suggests it is not just psychological (debate about the accuracy of this research aside), in light of a more liberal approach to society in general (e.g., women’s rights), and in light of a growing openly gay community that is fighting for equality both in the secular and religious worlds. This issue rests on how one views halacha in general:
– One approach is to say that the halacha can and should adjust to accommodate the newer social norms and science.
– A second approach is to say that it should adjust where possible, but that is limited to traditional means of adjusting halacha and cannot happen from external pressures or methodologies. Only a small percentages of halachos ever see such an adjustment.
– A third is to say that the halacha does not adjust for modern societal norms and/or scientific studies except in very rare exceptions, if at all. And in those exceptions, it only adjusts via traditional halachic processes.
There may be gradations between these groups, but at a high level I think that captures it.
A comments forum is not really the place to discuss a topic like this – nobody is going to convince anybody of anything. Everyone will leave with the exact same position on the above issue as before. That position, in turn, will determine their view on gay relations. It doesn’t matter how many logical/scientific/halachic/historical arguments are brought; if the above issue is not settled than no progress in either direction will be made. The debate would therefore be pointless.
I would just like to point out that any orthodox rabbi, as well as anyone who has ever studied a sugya in the gemara b’iyun and le’halacha (i.e., not just Mishna Berurah), has seen the traditional halachic process at work. Reinterpretations or creative applications of later sources (gemara, rishonim, acharonim) are rare but occasionally happen when new scientific data or scenarios come up. (E.g., electricity on shabbat.) Reinterpretations of pesukim in the Torah are essentially unheard of. All orthodox halachic rulings function in this way. Reform and conservative rulings do not, nor do some modern orthodox ‘decisions’ made by individuals (but not by rabbis).
Unfortunately, that point will not convince anyone who didn’t already agree with it, and I am sure I will be blasted for trying to put everyone into one of three neat little boxes. So you may all continue to debate, but I think this will be fruitless.
Lets Be Honest,
You mean the this blog doesn’t actually solve world issues? And here I though I was making a difference…
I think your 3 categories are quite accurate, don’t see why you should get blasted.
Truth be told, if I (or anyone else) manages to knock some sense into 1 “liberal” mind, the battle will have been won 😉
Met up with a buddy of mine last night, guy’s a social worker in charge of placing kids from dysfunctional homes into foster care. He was telling me some horror stories along with a new phenomenon that they now have to deal with: gay foster homes. Yup, he now has to place little boys into the hands of these twisted pervs, regardless of how morally wrong he thinks it is, and regardless of whether or not the kid wants to have two dads (or one that dresses like a mom).
Not that this has much to do with orthodox gays, but it goes to show the where dangerous path of misguided liberalism can lead to.
“You mean the this blog doesn’t actually solve world issues? And here I thought I was making a difference…”
LOL! I guess a frum satire site isn’t the best place for solving frum issues.
Just some food for thought regarding my three groups:
Group 1) Gay rights is just but one issue in a million other situations that can be ‘improved’ via adjusting to the times. What about women rabbis, driving to shul on shabbat if you live far away, electricity on shabbat, keeping 2 days of yom tov in chutz laaretz, halachos of kashrus as they apply to utensils absorbing flavor of milk/meat, Jews being ‘chosen’ in any sense of the word, the list goes on. At what point do you draw the line and say this is too far? What would make gay issues qualify but not another one that is deemed ‘too much?’ [Not making a point about any particular item in that list.]
Groups 2 and 3) At what point do you acknowledge a scientific finding that disproves the ‘knowledge’ of the world during the times of the gemara? When does something qualify to be adjusted and when does it go too far? [Again, not referring to any specific example.]
These are issues that need to be addressed here on FrumSatire.net. 😀
Letsbehonest,
A few million dollar questions that you’ll never get a straight answer to. I vote that we bring this up to one of our leading modern poskim, the Rahaf (aka R. Hesh Fried) 🙂
On a more realistic note, if you can’t get poskim to repeal even the most outdated chumras based solely on some silly old minhagim with reasons that no longer apply, you’ll never get them to relax the real rules.
Inyana d’yoma: kitniyot on pesach for ashkenazim
Yoreh K’chetz,
you are making up things as you go along. the only thing prohibited in leviticus is sleeping “with a man as you would with a woman” which would imply anal sex. also you state that because someone is gay, they are more likely to molest children. that is a bullshit statement, straight up, not backed by any research.
for example, i’ll give you a link to a summary of studies on the topic, with a couple of quotes:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
“Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children’s hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).”
“The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”
you can say whatever you want to say, but when valid scientific studies prove you to be wrong, i doubt you’ll change your opinion.
Hesh, you should not have made the introduction.
The frenzied back-and-forth comments on this post depict too accurately the essence of religious fundamentalism.
To Heshy: Keep it up! It’s good to know that there are plenty of frum Yidden out there who don’t find free thinking to be assur!
Heshy, I am not a homophobe, but i have to say that being gay is not a way of the torah, kol v’chomer someone hooking them up. i understand that you are happy for them because they are happy to be with one another, but it doesn’t make it right. Torah says if you see someone doing something wrong and you dont say anything about it then it is like you did it as well..so I would say that you might be judged as a gay man yourself.
For all the straight frum jews: it’s possible to be in a relationship without sexual intercourse. I wonder why do people always mix up searching for love and sexual desire. Do you really believe being a celibate or marrying a woman is an option for a gay person?
Since Torah prohibited only one thing, why should you not accept frum gay jews who avoid this particular action, but still live their life as a couple. Have you heard of asexual gay people? They do exist and can enjoy being in relationship without having sex.
You do try to defend Torah and halacha, but do not try to help those people with their struggle, remain frum and still be true to yourself. The comments like: “it doesn’t concern me, or it’s not my problem”, are just left be selfish people who cannot feel other peoples pain. Aren’t all jews responsible for one another? If you say now:” it’s not my problem”, eventually it will be your problem.
Littlebird,
I’ve never heard of asexual gays, isn’t that an oxymoron or contradiction? I’d say that being asexual is equivalent to being celibate.
We have laws against yichud with members of the opposite gender to avoid hanky panky even if they aren’t a couple. All the more chances that they are assumed to be doing things if they are romantically involved, such as in a case of Sotah.
Given that males have generally hornier than females, I’d say that a romantically involved gay couple living together are prone to sin as much and probably even more than any of the arayot. Sure, there might be an odd exception when gays get too old to get it up, but in most cases, I’d bet my boots that they’re having some form of physical intimacy.
Yoreh K’chetz,
All your answer is based on assumption or your personal opinion. If you never heard of it, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. I bet you know as much about gays as non-jews about Talmud.
Why do you think frum gay jews have less fear of Ashem? Most of them see their ssa as a struggle as a nisayon. On contrary they are prone not to sin in this particular sin. You yourself seems a bit overwhelmed about sex, if you can’t imagine two people in a relationship without having sex. If you read rabbi Nachman from Breslov, he teaches that he conquered his sexual desire and it doesn’t matter for him if he sees a woman or a man. There are similar examples in Talmud as well. In fact it’s easier to conquer your sexual desire to a man than to a forbidden woman (even your wife when she is nidah).
As for asexual gays, I have personally met such people. One was violated as a child and since then doesn’t accept sex though he identifies himself as a gay.
Yoreh K’chetz,
All your answer is based on assumption or your personal opinion. If you never heard of it, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. I bet you know as much about gays as non-jews about Talmud.
Why do you think frum gay jews have less fear of Ashem? Most of them see their ssa as a struggle as a nisayon. On contrary they are prone not to sin in this particular sin. You yourself seems a bit overwhelmed about sex, if you can’t imagine two people in a relationship without having sex. If you read rabbi Nachman from Breslov, he teaches that he conquered his sexual desire and it doesn’t matter for him if he sees a woman or a man. There are similar examples in Talmud as well. In fact it’s easier to conquer your sexual desire to a man than to a forbidden woman (even your wife when she is nidah).
As for asexual gays, I have personally met such people. One was violated as a child and since then doesn’t accept sex though he identifies himself as a gay.
Littlebird,
Knowing my own s*xual appetite, I find it very hard to believe than any couple would permanently refrain from s*x unless the guy was impotent or had serious phsycological issues such as your buddy.
And if you as*xual buddy has l issues because of his abuse, that doesn’t make him the standard. I don’t see why he should consider himself as gay if he has no desire for s*x.
Bottom line is that most gay people are active, and 2 Jewish gays living together is a recipe for sin.
One more thing: Don’t compare a tzaddik such as R. Nachman to 2 perverts that live which each other, it’s a total lack of respect.
Mr. K’chetz, you are hardly an expert on the subject, unless there is something you are not telling us. A good percentage of frumgays do not engage in the Torah-forbidden activity. Period. And what they do engage in is what you would find happening after lights-out in almost any yeshiva. Trust me.
Avrumy,
In my yeshiva days, I never encountered any such activity. I imagine your yeshiva experience as a faygele must have been different.
Either way, whatever is or isn’t happening in some yeshivas is still assur, just like driving to shul on the 8th day of yom tov or having a chicken cheeseburger.
Yoreh K’chetz,
First of all I never compared rabbi Nachman to anyone. I just gave an example of a person who managed to conquer his sexual desire. And he says that everyone is capable of controlling his sexual desire even gentiles. So it’s not a phenomenon if two frum gays refrain from sex.
Where is the border? Is kissing a guy or hugging him also assur, tell me where it’s written in shulhan aruch?
Oh, well, if you call 2 frum gays living together perverts then I believe we have nothing to discuss here.
P.S. Please, don’t you ever write on my behalf, something that I never wrote.
Littlebird,
While very few may be able to control themselves, the vast majority can’t. That’s why we have laws like yichud, etc.
Rambam forbids any intimate touching between arayot in Mishneh Torah. Homos*xuality is one of the worse arayot listed. Therefore, intimate hugging and kissing is forbiden (not the kind you see when someone hugs a buddy).
Lastly, 2 frum gays living together is DEFINITELY considered perverse, at least by most frum standards. If you think otherwise, YOU are the one with the biased opinion, not me.
Yoreh K’chetz,
If a frum gay jew falls in love with another frum gay jew, what should they do? They both agreed not to act on their desire. Do you suggest them to marry a woman and not being able to love the person they have to live with the rest of their life? Or become celibate all their life, this is the same as living in prison.
All your comparisons being gay to eating pork or bestiality is nonsence. You can only compare sexual desire and not acting on it. But being gay is much more than just sex, it’s a search for love, dedication to one person, self-fulfillment. A child molester doesn’t want to spend the rest of his life with this child, or the guy who wants to have sex with sheep. They are not gonna sacrifice or dedicate their entire life to a child or sheep. They just want to act on their desire. Don’t you see the difference between them and a gay person?
Littlebird,
I don’t see how to guys can just “fall” in love, as if they fell off a ladder. They obviously would have to have been dating or courting each other, which is wrong to begin with.
When 2 guys that are attracted to each other to the point that they feel they are in love decide to live together, it’s a recipe for sin.
Just because you may be emotionally attached to your boyfriend, that doesn’t mean that you transgressing is any less halachically severe than doing it with a sheep. If anything, it’s probably worse.
I wasn’t the one that came up with the rules, nor do I don’t have any simple solution for either. Maybe marry a butch and have her wear a strap on 🙂 …
Thanks so much for posting this. Now if you know any semi-religious girls who would go out with girls, please let me know 🙂 (I’m serious.)
Do gay chareidi couples have a hole in the sheet?
i live in a semi orthodox partially conservative
neighborhood. it is apparent that quite a few
man who attend schul regularly and practicing
at least a dignified portion of tariag are closeted
gays; enjoying social safety and family life as
their days go, and clearly looking for sexual
interactions at the gym. i saw it very clearly on
numerous occasions. i have 2 things to say
when reading these MELITSUYOT YOSHER;
1- something likely doesn’t work in a pro-religious
environment if the person’s gay; being disloyal to
an unfortunate wife is a nasty option MANY take.
2- likely these mezuza kissing homosexuals are at the
same token condemning homosexuality in order to fit in;
i wonder what is the % of condemners here who fall
into that category. as i said: something for sure does not work…