Dear Rabbi X,
I would like to personally thank you for bringing the issue of tznius to the public. Since I read your letter, it has opened my eyes to a problem that is surely bigger and more severe than anything else facing our community. I myself have grown up very naive about tznius. It wasn’t discussed much at all in my home, my father who wrote articles on every topic never seemed to address the crucial issue of tznius. I went to a yeshiva that not only didn’t talk about tznius, they never mentioned the existence of girls in general! Even in my Choson classes I dont remember being taught what and what not my wife can wear. I was told you’ll know it when you see it.
After getting married, I took for granted that my wife, who I admired and respected, grew up in a frum home where she was taught how a bas melech should dress. I seemed to have been proven right because I don’t remember ever discussing tznius with her except when she asked me if a dress that she bought looked tzniusdik. I myself wasn’t sure what to answer, and even more I wasn’t sure what the right answers was. Did she want to know if she looked attractive in it or was she looking for a psak halacha. Either way I wouldn’t win so I just told her it seems fine and she should use her best judgement.
It wasn’t until we decided to open a girls’ camp that I began asking rabbonim about the standards of tznius, this way we could set our camp rules according to proper halacha. Any questions about tznius issues though, was my wife’s department. I would never tell a girl if I thought something she was wearing was inappropriate, for that matter I never commented on anything a girl was wearing. I would just feel uncomfortable doing so and I thought she would too.
Throughout my 35 years living in Brooklyn, visiting many diverse Jewish neighborhoods, and my 7 years involved in an all girls’ camp, I never paid much attention to the issue of Tznius. It’s not like I never noticed an improperly dressed girl, I just never paid that much attention to the massive problem at hand. Maybe it was because of the non-jewish world that I was unfortunately exposed to and from all the pritzus I saw around me, be it the magazines, billboards, and TV. And so I have desensitised myself to what tznius is all about. But yet somehow I was always able to tell a modestly dressed girl without a second glance, no matter her dress code.
But now after reading what you wrote and how all the terrible things that happen today are because of our lack in tznius, I see everything in a new light. I started paying much closer attention to the same woman I have seen in the past. I now notice the length of her skirt before I even say hello. I can tell you how many inches below or above her knee is covered within seconds, and just like you I’m appalled. This isn’t just when they stand, but as you pointed out that when they sit down it gets even worse. I notice that some women who wear snoods don’t cover their hair completely, I have found a range of about 1 – 3 inches and even one woman that was nearly 4 inches! And while I was sure everyone in our community covered their hair with a shaitel, I have learned the skill to tell whether a woman is really wearing a shatel or not and I’m very disappointed that there are still many who don’t (unless I’m still not that good at this yet).
Rabbi X, you have opened my eyes to a subculture I never new existed amongst our frum community, a community that I was once very proud to be amongst. I guess until I read your insightful letter I never looked at the extreme details of every woman I met, and I guess I just saw them more as a person and not a dress code. I was judging them favorably, something I was taught to do. If I just knew the tumah they were projecting on to the community, I would have been much more judgmental. You have B”H changed the way I look at women and girls and it is very different than the way I was brought up. And so now I understand your concern why you felt this issue of tznius is what is holding back moshiach.
I would also like to add, that just like you, I also noticed this past purim these girls hanging out like zonas on the street corners talking to guys. And while in the past I felt it wasn’t so much their fault as there was no other program for the girls on purim night except to watch the guys getting drunk and having a blast, now I feel just like you, that girls should be kept in their rooms, saying tehillim or school work, as you explained so well “A Jewish woman belongs in the house.” Purim is just not a yom tov for them! We need to install more Vaad Hatznius, like in Eretz Yisroel to patrol our neighborhoods. Eggs, bleach, whatever it takes to get rid of these immodest girls. We could even hire professional spatters at every corner, it seemed to have had a very positive effect in Beit Shemesh.
The Rambam that you quote goes on to say that if a community is not living according to halacha and there is a lack of tznius one is required to leave immediately, even to a remote island to live all by himself. I believe this community is not adhering to the tznius guidelines you set forth and there is pritzus all around I think it would be best for you to leave.
Your number one fan,
Dovid Teitelbaum
Director, Camp Sdei Chemed Int’l
Please note: For those who don’t get the point of this letter. I believe, we as men, need to stop putting out these ridiculous tznius letters, they are making us all look like a bunch of perverts. We need to educate tznius on a more personal level and it shouldn’t be all about rules and inches.
Find out more on 4torah.com
Win.
I think since there is always going to be a breach of tznius, then we ALL need to to move out of our communities each to his own island. This of course must supersede our needs to daven with minyanim, learn with a chavrusah, or even have a rav to consult regarding just how un-tznius local women are -you just need to leave. Only THIS will save you, I mean all Jews from certain divine retribution.
Some new businesses to consider starting in Brooklyn:
– human hair burqua macher
– reverse yad le-achim organization to extract people from the chareidi cult
– Manufacture of blinders for chareidi men to wear outside; inside versions for those with wives who won’t be tznius inside
– Glasses with blocking technology to blur out all females. this will avoid having to spit/stone/etc (so an actual life saving device)
i’m embarrassed to be Jewish.
A special version of Google glass should do it!
i’m embarrassed to be Jewish.
Yeah. me too. I’m actually considering regrowing my foreskin.
Blinders for men. Excellent!
amazing satire! and yeah guys who are obsessing with tsniut should wear sunglasses or blindfolds!
Not so far from the Japanese pervs who obsess over exactly what size gap between the top of the stockings and the bottom of the minidress is the hawtest.
But of course that’s the point.
Nice one, Heshy
pawned! go Dovid!
ha ha ha as I read, your sidebar advertisements has a girl in her underwear and a t shirt that say Meh…. exactly…. get a life people, worry about your own you crazy fanatical wierdos…
This post roasts extremism to overcooked perfection.:)
” . . .I just saw them [women] more as a person and not a dress code. I was judging them favorably, something I was taught to do.”
This man earned a gold medal. Thank you, Dovid, for this “letter,” and thanks to Heshy for posting it.
Best line in the whole piece!!!
clever:)
The whole letter is great, but the last line of the letter is brilliant.
Seriously smart. A really insightful look at the way we do things which leads to the things we don’t want.
The article was good. The humor was clear enough. I was surprised to see the disclaimer at the end: are some of your readers that humor challenged?
David teitelbaum is one sick effing jerk-off. I do what I want, look at what I want and don’t give a hoot about what anyone says or cares. That said, I don’t go around blogging and venting about how I know better than all the rabbonim and gedolim while openly flaunting violations of halacha as this scumbag david teitlebaum. There is a lot in judaism that what’s in your heart is very important, but if the shulchan aruch saw need to delineate exact tznius standards then, yes, elbows and knees showing is assur! And don’t tell us david teitelbaum that you go in your father z”l’s footsteps and teach the “love” of judaism in your camp….. While flaunting pictures of untznius girls and claiming, let’s not get caught up in the details, an inch here an inch there soesnt matter. If the torah says it matters, it does. I’m not forcing you to do what it says, just don’t misrepresent the torah! Your father wishes he never brought you to this world!
You are the problem with Judaism today. People like you who get angry with anyone that says anything contrary to what they believe and feel the need to become defensive about it. If you disagree, fine, express yourself, but don’t you dare make it personal. That being said, do you even know Dovid; it doesn’t sound like it. I didn’t know dovid’s father so I can’t say if he would have agreed with dovid but he certainly is not a scumbag. If Judaism has any hope of growing and advancing in the future people like you have to grow up.
Enraged, sounds like you completely lost it!!!! Go get a life, get off the internet, get a filter. You most probably never met Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum. Because if you really knew him, you would know how much he loved every neshoma!!!!
You most probably hate yourself, think about it, work on it. Love yourself first, then start with others….
Get it wet girls.
Come on over.
Pump and pump time!
ME AND MY ROD
All the entertainment you need… MY ROD.
Provided to you by MY ROD.
The ALMIGHTY ROD will JIZZ on your feet tonight!
Just be quiet. MY ROD doesn’t know your there!
It’s what you always wanted to happen on GIRLS night out.
FORGY PARTY!
You know how to find me!
I take it your elevator does not go all the way to the top.
Fact: Tznuis actually is a problem in the frum community.
Fact: And lately, there seems to be more and more obnoxious, egomaniacal men seem to feel as if G-d has personally sent THEM to fix this problem, because GODDAMMIT, there are NOT enough educated Rebbitzens and female teachers willing to address the problem, and as men, they are the ONLY ones who can convince the girls to zip up.
Fact: Most women would, at this point, regardless of how strongly they advocate tznuis, like to shove their heavy duty safety pins (used to keep their collars closed, of course) up those self righteous Rabbi’s butts.
True Story: We once had a speaker from the local yeshiva come in and start yelling at us that we were corrupting the future generation of Klall Yisroel as well as the current yeshiva bachrim of the community (whom, for the record, we never even saw. Not once!). He instructed us that we should follow in the example of our holy Imahos- “Sarah… um…. Sarah…. and the other ones”. We had to remind him who they were, along with Moshe’s wife, Tzipporah. Oops.
Here’s an idea- to combat this trend, why don’t the leading Rebbitzens of our day start going to the yeshivas and start giving mussar shmuzes about the evils of pornography and masturbation? There’s a cheerful thought! Heck with it, they don’t even have to be leading Rebbitzens- they can be the same age as the little newly-married twenty somethings who seem to be writing more and more of those self righteous articles lately.
Why a crisis? Why always a crisis?
Every definition of “crisis” comes down to a a critical moment when significant change is about to happen. If it’s gone on for hundreds of years it’s not a crisis. If things will kinda, sorta go on without any real changes it’s not a crisis even if you don’t like the direction they’re heading. Kosher food price crisis. Tznius crisis. Shidduch crisis. They aren’t crises. They’re problems dressed up in grander language.
Hence why I used the word “problem”.
I agree with Dovid at the fact that it is highly inappropriate for “charadie” men to be checking out girls “too see if their tNiot” bc if they are soooo against it they shouldn’t be standing around lookin for them. What I don’t understand is how their wives, who dress in a more conservative manner, have no problem with their husbands checking out girls who probably show more then they ever do . ??? ?? ?????
I agree with Dovid at the fact that it is highly inappropriate for “charadie” men to be checking out girls “too see if their tNiot” bc if they are soooo against it they shouldn’t be standing around lookin for them. What I don’t understand is how their wives, who dress in a more conservative manner, have no problem with their husbands checking out girls who probably show more then they ever do . ??? ?? ?????
Forgy party near Westwood. Females meet up at Starbucks. Gathering while getting coffee. Don’t forget your bullet proof stockings. Tonight is going to be fun!