A couple of years ago I was at this purim party in New York City that was highly advertised on Facebook as having free drinks and no cover. What Jew could resist two free things and the possibility of getting some action as well, I am not into clubs, I generally don’t enjoy the dance styles (dry humping with clothing) practiced at those establishments. Growing up frum I never learned to dance with girls anyway and even in the few instances I could have I always wondered about the dance floor boner situation – later on in life I learned to cope with this embarrassing “more common than you think situation” according to women I have spoken to.
So I went with a couple of friends to this club near Alphabet City and we drank free vodka and cranberries until they started charging people for them, clever of us to show up on time, because all the cool people who showed up late were in for expensive drinks. At one point I found myself being pulled onto the dance floor where I busted out the moves I learned from watching Micheal Jackson videos on MTV growing up. All I really remember was being sandwiched between two very nice looking girls from the five towns and hearing one of the girls say to the other “who would have ever guessed that Frum Satire could dance?” It would have been funny even if I was sober.
You know how they say everything leads to mixed dancing, I can pretty much gauruntee that if you go to a sleazy Jew party in the city on Purim with free drinks and loud music that it will lead to mixed dancing, but one may say that at least we put ourselves in a Jewish situation so that we were technically in the clear if we were dan l’kav z’chus that everyone in the room had gone to the mikvah beforehand to ensure halachially legal mixed dancing.
So I can sort of dance, I used to be really embarrassed to bust out my white frummy moves on the dance floor at concerts and would gently bob my head and air guitar if the mood called for it, rarely would I thrust, gyrate or bounce to the groove. Then one Saturday night in Rochester NY at a Addison Groove Project show I discovered funk and there is simply no way you can attend a funk show and not want to dance. Not only did I dance, I felt good about dancing in a crowd of funk, jazz and jazz band folks who all seemed to “not know what they were doing” and it was then that I discovered the natural urge to dance regardless of how you appear to others.
If you attend enough jam band shows you realize that hippies are even worse dancers than frummies and they only have one or two dances, but I’m sure they could hold their own in a slow dance, while we yeshiva educated folks have no idea what to do.
Why should we know how to dance, you can’t really dance with the ladies and when you’re married, I have heard rumors that many frummies don’t go out dancing with their wives – I kind of looked forward to getting married and going out dancing with my wife, because then maybe I’ll have someone who can show me what to do, how to lead and all that jazz.
I got thinking about how frummies really don’t know how to dance with the opposite sex because My Jewish Learning has this new video with comedian Myq Kaplan talking about his parents enrolling him in a dance class so he wouldn’t look like an idiot at bar mitzvahs, but he never gets to use his moves and thank God no one ever got to see my moves at a bar mitzvah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaaAWY70wEA
LOL , Tzvi , I saw this guy in the city a few months ago >>>> I was like ” You”re that dude , That fell on his face ! ” lol it was pretty funny .
So this Jewish guy is about to get married and he asks his rabbi which positions are kosher in the bedroom.
He asks, “doggy style?” The rabbi replies, “Of course, if it makes your wife happy. ”
“upside down?” “If it makes your wife happy. ”
“Missionary””If it makes your wife happy. ”
“Reverse cowgirl?” “If it makes your wife happy. ”
“wheelbarrow? ” “If it makes your wife happy. ”
“Oral?” “If it makes your wife happy. ”
“Anal” “If it makes your wife happy. ”
“Sitting down?” “If it makes your wife happy. ”
“Standing up?” “Absolutely not! It might lead to mixed dancing.”
In South Louisiana, you better know how to dance or you won’t survive in social situations. Dancing is considered such a strong part of the Cajun culture in South Louisiana that is perfectly okay for a married woman to ask a single man to dance and vice versa. Amazingly, it isn’t considered an affront if someone asks your date or spouse to join them on the dance floor. I have seen some really ugly dudes in South Louisiana dancing with absolutely beautiful women (because these dudes are fantastic dancers). What’s funny, is that when the dance is over everybody goes on their way.
My problem is, if I dance with a girl and she’s making moves that are obviously shall we say, sultry, then I am definitely going to assume we’re spending the night together. Or at least some heavy making out in the car. Don’t advertise it if it ain’t for sale, girl.
Once you leave a normal orthodox dating scenario, expect to get led-on way more than you’d like (though you may occasionally get “lucky” if that’s what one wants to call it). Many of these girls honestly don’t even think they’re leading you on, they just think some semi-flirtatious behavior is acceptable for a platonic situation, and hey, it’s you’re problem if you read too much into it. Call it lack of consideration, call it willful female self-delusion, call it innocent fun, but it can be annoying.
Not that modest dating can’t have its drawbacks, but the carefree club scene ain’t all that carefree.
Precisely. And if you walk into the lion’s den, don’t complain (or scream) when you get bitten. If you start undulating and simulating sex on the dance floor, you’re an easy mark, and you deserve what you get. Perception is what counts, not reality.
Annoying doesnt even begin to describe it. If your sexual dancing gets the guy aroused, which it inevitably will, what happens afterwards is on you. Or more likely, in you.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Girls dance because they like to dance. When there are more women than men on the dance floor the straight ones will dance with each other. It’s not lewd or sultry. It’s just how girls look when they’re having fun and cutting loose. If you’re a straight guy with a normal hormonal balance you’ll find it attractive. If a girl is dancing like she wants you you’ll notice the difference.
It’s a lot like the supermarket checkout line. The nice young woman running the cash register smiles at you and speaks in a warm voice. She thinks she’s being polite and friendly. A lot of clueless guys think “She’s hot for me” just like she was hot for the last six hundred people who came through including the toddler, Father McLoughlin and the ninety year old great great grandmother.
The Order of the Garter, I like it.
Which legend has it was founded at a dance.
He’s pretty funny.
care to enlighten us on what you do in those more common than you think situations
That picture of the dude in tzitzits dancing up top is off the hook…
“Go Nachum … it’s your birthday, go Nachum …”
It strange because most of the Israeli ones can
Because Israeli non-frum guys are more prust than American guys.
Different cultures, different customs. White Americans don’t like to dance and are pretty bad at it. Russians are pretty good at it traditionally. Argentinians and Brazilians love to dance and are GREAT at it. In most of Africa dancing is so much a part of the cultures that it’s unthinkable for a guy not to be able to.
I’m referring to guys in the above
They swing from trees and act like animals too. So?
“Obvious troll is obvious”.
Go back under your bridge, or I’ll send the Big Billy Goat Gruff trip-tropping after you.
Most often the girls dancing at social events are not trying to lead a guy on. There is no touching involved except for the slow dances, so if you’re Shomer, not to worry. Freud said that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes dancing is just dancing. I would advocate for the Rabbinate to encourage mixed dancing to eliminate the shidduch crisis. You can lean a lot about a person by the way he or she dances.
Encourage mixed dancing…. Instead why not just kill anyone over 25 and not married?
You would as soon see your sister or daughter dead as dancing with a guy?
I’m being sarcastic.
What I’m trying to say is, an end does not by default justify it’s means. If you value halacha, the above is absurd. If not – how did get Rabbis get into the equation?
Don’t be so naieve. When a girl is simulating rubbing up and down on a guy, if not actually doing it, or shaking her boobs and making certain facial gestures, any normal red blooded guy is picking up those signals. Whatever is on her mind, by that time it’s a done deal for him. That’s how a lot of date rapes happen, from little signals., intended or not. I’m not saying the rape is justified. But I do think that dancing like they do nowadays is a definite factor in contributing to the situation. We’re not talking about plain old ballroom dancing, and you know that. Dancing today is just a vertical expression of a horizontal act. And I’m telling you straight up, if you dance like that with me, you’re definitely gonna knock boots with me when the dancing is over.
The time it would take to correct your disgusting misconceptions, especially about rape, would take more time than you’re worth.
The horsewhipping you desperately deserve would take even longer.
Don’t be an azz. I didnt say rape is ok, but the girl is not free of responsibility either. Women today have this notion that even if they walk down the street stark naked, men are supposed to just look, if even that, and control themselves and not go further. It shows they know nothing about men at all. That’s exactly why we have laws of tznius, because God understands the nature of men, and women share the responsibility.
Don’t walk in the lion’s den if you are afraid of getting bitten.
It’s all the man’s fault, always, right? Another reason liberals should be banned.
Always picking on the libs huh, won;t get you far with this audience
Women share the responsibility for a man’s actions. You don’t stroll thru the lion’s den if you’re scared of being bitten.
Nuran,
I know you’d like to see all rapists hanged by their noses, and I totally agree with you, but I think the guy is trying to make a different point here.
The fault of the assaulter completely aside, there is a concept of women “ASKING FOR IT”. And I think you know what I mean. Similar to a little white kid being silly for walnking into a PJ and counting his hundreds in the street there. It in no way vindicates or justifies the guy who mugs him, but he is a douche, and should not complain. As it is his own irresponsibility which caused it.
Correct Yankel. That’s exactly why we have laws of tznius, becuz Hashem knows the nature of man. Women think that they can dance seductively, “all in good fun” and if a guy reacts differently than they expect, it’s not their problem. Perception is the key, not the intent. Maybe men ARE clueless. But if so, women need to know that and act or not act accordingly. That’s the difference between Jes and non-Jews. We are not all independent of each other. Just the opposite.
Especially sickos like me. I think that the woman in the local sefarim store is coming on to me if she’s extra nice, even with her sheitel and black clothing.
Well then you have your own issues, you moronic rapist. The only way you would get laid is through roofies apparently…
Now I’m a rapist? LOL! Ok, time for your meds. Sleep well.
So according to you, and please be so kind as to correct me if I’m wrong (which I never am, but feel free), a woman should be able to knock on my door, enter, strip down to her birthday suit, flick her tongue at me, and if I make a move on her, it’s my fault if she screams “rape”? And if she doesnt but verbally invites me to engage in sex with her and then right in the middle of the shangrila she says no, I should stop and pull out or else I’m a rapist too? You’re a riot. I’d kill the bi**h before i’d stop if that was the case. If I’m going to jail, it had better be worth it.
No sir. If she advertises it, then she better not complain when customers start beating down the door.
Now I’m a rapist? LOL
Take your meds and wake up. No woman gets to start something she has no intention of finishing. You probably think that a woman can show up at my door stark naked and if I react, I’m the guilty lecher. Sorry Charlie, it doesn’t work that way. If you put it out there, don’t complain when someone grabs it.
Schwingy,
I think you misunderstood me. I don’t absolve you of your guilt at all. If you “relate” to anyone without their full consent you are an evil criminal.
What I’m saying is, that a woman is to blame as well if she acts provocatively. But that is now way lightens your responsibility.
Meshugeneh
I’m a rapist? LOL, ok. Time for your meds.
dude you did say that date rape happens because of girls dancing, thats kinda messed up
No, isaid it contributes to the situation. Ultimately the dude decides he’s gonna do it, but today’s women have the false notion that “no means no” applies even when the guy is already inside her and going at it. It don’t work that way. As far as I’m concerned, once you’re in the bedroom/backseat of the car, wherever, and she’s undressed, it’s a done deal.
Schwing,
I tried to post this response earlier but for some reason it appears the website was down.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were simply being hypothetical. It doesn’t really matter how you perceive it….done deal or not It’s how the law perceives it and with that comes the definition of rape. In criminal law in most states, rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, by one person against another person without that person’s consent. In the early 2000s in many states, the prosecution can prove lack of consent by presenting evidence that the victim objected verbally to the sexual penetration or sexual intrusion.
So therefore, if a woman says “NO!” or “Stop Your Hurting Me!” In the middle of intercourse, you better stop. Telling the judge said it was a “done deal” because you were in the middle of intercourse won’t keep you out of the slammer. And when you’re in the slammer, guess who’s lowest on the food chain? My neighbors daughter, Jewish incidentally, was raped in college by a friend of a friend. Emotionally, she’s never been the same. It has been a challenge for the family to say the least.
It’s pretty obvious you’re not married. If I am having intimate relations with my wife and she tells me to stop, I stop. No done deal satisfaction for me if she’s not a happy camper.
and he said if a girl dances like that he intends to knock boots with her afterwards.
WHY ARE ORTHODOX Jewish men in clubs dancing with women anyway??????
and im not the anonymous guy fyi different messed up dude
Obviously rapists should not be absolved of guilt, no matter what the victim was doing, although it would be silly to say there aren’t ways for girls to encourage or discourage such an assault by their behavior and demeanor. The girl in the tight miniskirt and bright red lipstick, gyrating her hips to the music is more likely to draw sexual advances (including those of rapists) than the dignified girl minding her own business. I think the point is that girls ought to be conscious of the effect that they have on men by even the simplest gestures, and how sensitive men (including us non-rapists) are to sexual cues, real or imagined.
btw that video is NOT funny at all…..
Yeah I know thats the law, and its stupid. I am married, in fact, and you cant compare a one night stand by 2 teens on young adults to a married couple. The 2 kids are not most likely in love, they have just met in most cases. All he is thinking about is her tight outfit, her bouncing boobs, and the gyrations and looks she’s giving. A husband has or should have more feelings. Either way, the bottom line is, not having mixed dancing will cut down on the possibilities that could arise, CV.