I am dirt poor and therefore I am all for universal health care, but I don’t think it’s a good idea, nor do I remember even wanting to pay for my own I sure as hell don’t want to pay for anyone elses – I, mostly because I think it will ruin the American health care system and cause a lot more pain then help. Besides when on earth did health care become a right?
On the surface it seems like a novel idea, people who cannot afford to pay for their provided by the state, or their company (which I definitely don’t agree with) but what if they could afford to pay for it, but wanted to use that money for fattening foods and a big screen TV, why should the tax payers foot the bill.
My father and almost every frum Jew I know says it’s socialism, looking at countries like Norway and Sweden kind of gives me the idea that socialism did something right, I don’t really think it’s such a bad word. We already have public education, public parks and public retirement, I don’t see how we aren’t already socialist. The left wing people I talk with say the free health care systems of the world rock, the right wingers say those people come to America to get stuff done. I don’t believe either of them.
What I am really thinking is that if you think everyone should health care, everyone should be mandated to have it – sort of like car insurance. I am speaking from complete ignorance by the way, but these are some random thoughts I have been having as Obama keeps pushing this health care thing through.
Here is the problem with that theory– having a car is (technically) optional. Can’t afford insurance? Then you don’t get the car, and you wind up using public transportation, etc.
On the other hand, they reason why we pay so much for health care (those of use that are lucky enough to have it) is because of the system itself:
1) people who don’t have insurance go to emergency rooms, which cannot turn away any one who is actually dying (they have to treat you until you are well enough to push out the door and they die just off of their property). So say your have an upper respiratory infection that originally could’ve been treated by $5 worth of antibiotics, because you can’t get into see a normal doctor when it was manageable, now costs $1,500 in emergency room care (which is conservative– because the condition must be far more progressed just to be seen, and because emergency rooms, by the nature of how they are run, are just more expensive). Now, because this person doesn’t have insurance, they either pick up $1500 they probably can’t afford (or they would’ve just bought insurance)–which many do and is the leading cause of bankruptcy in America– or they choose to simply walk away (because they can’t afford to pay it anyway) and leave the tab for the rest of us, resulting in much higher premiums for the rest of us.
2) Like I said before, preventative care is much, much cheaper in the long run (exercise is much cheaper than a triple bypass)– eg. in England, doctors are paid bonuses from the gov’t health ministry for the number of patients they get to lead a healthier life (measured by things like quitting smoking, weightloss, etc). In America, (a for profit system), doctors are paid bonuses for writing the fewest number of referrals and doing the least blood work- again resulting in fewer conditions being caught early on and treated– because it is always cheaper for an insurance company to deny treatment than to provide it.
3) executive pay– 1 in every 7 dollars spent on healthcare in the US last year went to directly to the salary of the CEO of CIGNA– and yet premiums continue to increase and care continues to decline. I am okay with bonuses, but aren’t bonuses supposed to be tied to performance?
4) I think part of the problem is that the conservative right likes to place blame on the healthcare issue– if you aren’t insured it’s your fault. if you are unhealthy it’s your fault. etc. etc. But it’s a system where you can’t win. I know that I have always worked 40+ hours a week (starting at age 16), and have pretty much consistently had a job, but I am uninsurable. Why? I was born with a heart condition. It’s a minor murmur. No big deal- didn’t even know I had it, until I went for physical when I started a new job. The doctor didn’t even notice it until I had an EKG and saw a minor flutter. but this was reason enough to deny me health care coverage, because of a “pre-existing condition”. (Cheaper for them, because my employer pays the same group rate whether there is one more person in the group or not, but it is one fewer person for Aetna to provide health care for)
I’m pretty sure “life” will soon be a pre-existing condition.
If someone had a gun to your head and ordered you to give up ten, twenty, or thirty percent of your income (or more for some people) in order to continue living, the government would throw them in jail. This really isn’t that different. Except the person who handed you that ticking time bomb made several billion dollars last year, but claims they simply “don’t have the funds” to put out the fuse
Wow! Can I post that as a guest post on my blog? Wanna write a guest post for me?
1 in every 7 dollars spent on healthcare in the US last year went to directly to the salary of the CEO of CIGNA
This is one of the stupidest things I’ve seen recently. We spend trillion+ on healthcare. The CEO of CIGNA did not receive 14% (1 out of 7 dollars) of that!
Here is the problem with that theory– having a car is (technically) optional. Can’t afford insurance? Then you don’t get the car, and you wind up using public transportation, etc.
On the other hand, they reason why we pay so much for health care (those of use that are lucky enough to have it) is because of the system itself:
1) people who don’t have insurance go to emergency rooms, which cannot turn away any one who is actually dying (they have to treat you until you are well enough to push out the door and they die just off of their property). So say your have an upper respiratory infection that originally could’ve been treated by $5 worth of antibiotics, because you can’t get into see a normal doctor when it was manageable, now costs $1,500 in emergency room care (which is conservative– because the condition must be far more progressed just to be seen, and because emergency rooms, by the nature of how they are run, are just more expensive). Now, because this person doesn’t have insurance, they either pick up $1500 they probably can’t afford (or they would’ve just bought insurance)–which many do and is the leading cause of bankruptcy in America– or they choose to simply walk away (because they can’t afford to pay it anyway) and leave the tab for the rest of us, resulting in much higher premiums for the rest of us.
2) Like I said before, preventative care is much, much cheaper in the long run (exercise is much cheaper than a triple bypass)– eg. in England, doctors are paid bonuses from the gov’t health ministry for the number of patients they get to lead a healthier life (measured by things like quitting smoking, weightloss, etc). In America, (a for profit system), doctors are paid bonuses for writing the fewest number of referrals and doing the least blood work- again resulting in fewer conditions being caught early on and treated– because it is always cheaper for an insurance company to deny treatment than to provide it.
3) executive pay– 1 in every 7 dollars spent on healthcare in the US last year went to directly to the salary of the CEO of CIGNA– and yet premiums continue to increase and care continues to decline. I am okay with bonuses, but aren’t bonuses supposed to be tied to performance?
4) I think part of the problem is that the conservative right likes to place blame on the healthcare issue– if you aren’t insured it’s your fault. if you are unhealthy it’s your fault. etc. etc. But it’s a system where you can’t win. I know that I have always worked 40+ hours a week (starting at age 16), and have pretty much consistently had a job, but I am uninsurable. Why? I was born with a heart condition. It’s a minor murmur. No big deal- didn’t even know I had it, until I went for physical when I started a new job. The doctor didn’t even notice it until I had an EKG and saw a minor flutter. but this was reason enough to deny me health care coverage, because of a “pre-existing condition”. (Cheaper for them, because my employer pays the same group rate whether there is one more person in the group or not, but it is one fewer person for Aetna to provide health care for)
I’m pretty sure “life” will soon be a pre-existing condition.
If someone had a gun to your head and ordered you to give up ten, twenty, or thirty percent of your income (or more for some people) in order to continue living, the government would throw them in jail. This really isn’t that different. Except the person who handed you that ticking time bomb made several billion dollars last year, but claims they simply “don’t have the funds” to put out the fuse
(Also, Heshy, why do my posts keep disappearing?)
Those who can pay for health insurance do. But those that can’t, still deserve a basic good plan. It should have no frills (no discounts on plastic surgery for example), but it should provide for their health.
Why? to me it’s as simple as this question: If you walk on the street and see a person injured or sick – will you help them or walk away?
I couldn’t agree more. That is how it is run in most countries with “socialized medicine”-as I am sure you well know. Everyone receives necessary medical coverage– this means prescriptions (all at a basic copay– same no matter what is prescribed), seeing your doctor on a regular basis, blood work etc– and then on top of that any extra insurance people want to buy is their own call. Most people in the middle or upper middle class in France do buy additional medical coverage (which also, like some really nice insurance coverage here, pays for things like acupuncture and part of your health club membership, cosmetic procedures, etc), but it is totally optional.
If you are going to give basic coverage to some, you may as well give it to all. This prevents people pretending to be poor in order to get coverage– or the problem with welfare, where mothers don’t want to get a job, because then they will make the same amount of money working at McDonald’s that they would get on welfare but their kids lose Medicaid. So, if you give everyone basic medical care (again reducing the cost, because this component will be routine and not an issue of profit) then whoever wants additional coverage may purchase it.
As Jews (and just human beings) I see us obligated to help our fellow man in this way. Furthermore, if we have a right to a free education, etc. then why doesn’t everyone have the reasonable expectation to live a normal (relatively healthy life)?
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but countries with socialized medicine tend to have much lower obesity rates, etc because people can get into to see their doctors before their health gets to be a problem and those children that are at risk (because of their living situation, etc) get caught and helped early on.
I think your post forget the biggest predictor of obesity is not age, race, or anything of the sort but rather class. Generally, it isn’t people that can afford health insurance that are eating poorly (well, some of them are..) but more often than not it is people who can’t afford any food except the worst of the worst. For example, in 2007 a study was done that said 80%+ of all people on food stamps in the US are children. (Primarily children under 10.) Most people wouldn’t allow children under ten to cook for themselves (at least with a gas stove), so how can we say that they are entirely responsible for their own health problems. Furthermore, the average amount of money they are given is $20 a week for food– which is less than a dollar a meal. The group that did the study challenged the senate (which was threatening to cut funding for food stamps) to live on $20 a week for two months. Only one senator took the bet–and she only lasted a week. She said she had to eat McDonald’s dollar menu every meal (a common solution) and at the end of the week felt like she was going to have a heart attack.
If you are going to address an issue like health care you really have to look at many things (especially if you are going to start assigning blame for things)– because all of these issues are very interconnected.
Each time I hear the words “socialized medicine”, I think:
“The Cold War Era called. It wants its scare tactic back.”
hahaha so true.
Also, when I had health insurance in the US (good insurance) it still didn’t cover things like eye glasses or hearing aid.. and I am sorry but these are necessities. At least in Canada the government covers the cost of the most basic one that will work for your specific hearing/vision problem, and you pay half the difference or so for an upgrade beyond that.
In the US they don’t cover hearing aids (which run about $500-$2500 a pair from decent audiologist depending on your needs), but they do cover cochlear implant (which is, in crude terms, a surgically implanted hearing aid)– even though they run $50,000+ a piece (per side that is!) plus follow up care and speech therapy. Because they are so much more invasive they figure fewer people will go through with it… it’s just ridiculous. In stead of doing one side of implants, they could have easily proved 250 sets of hearing aids….
This system is f’ed up.
The most socialist plans proposed here are still significantly less socialist than the level of socialism that is Bituach Leumi
Bituach Leumi
Bituach Leumi is the Israeli analogue to the US Social Security. A little more extensive (due to universal army service, widespread terror, etc), but still quite similar. I think healthcare is a different system.
http://www.btl.gov.il/English%20Homepage/Benefits/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.btl.gov.il/English%20Homepage/Insurance/Health%20Insurance/Pages/default.aspx
Yes, Bituach Leumi handles the collection of health taxes. Just like Social Security would be likely to collect any future US health tax (separate, not the usual income tax method). I think Social Security Administration collects Medicare part B payments today.
When did education become a right? It’s a good question because when did anything we have become a right? It wasn’t so long ago that education, voting, and things like Social Security weren’t rights. I don’t think there’s anything about these things that inherently make this things rights, but they become rights when society thinks it would be an overall boon to ensure them. Education boosts the economy and spreading the right to vote eased our conscience.
Healthcare became a right when advanced nations realized that not only is helping the sick a moral imperative, but that healthier nations are also wealthier nations. The Democrats just need to be careful that they don’t hurt innovation or anything, which it seems like they won’t
Btw, bigger government =/= socialism. The second requires the first, but the opposite isn’t true. Socialism is the state control of major industry, not the regulation of industries. The bailout of GM was socialistic in nature, if not needed, but this plan is just trying to fix a system. Besides, the status quo has the government doling out more than half of all healthcare dollars. Reform might actually reverse trend.
Well, you know, the US spends more than any other country on health care (per capita). Many other countries manage universal coverage for less money than the US spends for system where not everybody is insured.
I think this should rise certain questions.
I read something about this before. It’s because our medical beauracracy rakes it in. They figure since we have a better GDP per capita, they can.
Are you the same yuyu that was on metalks.com a few years back (Yudith from Yaffo)?
Universal coverage does not automatically mean that the individual does not take on responsibility.
You can have a system where everyone has to pay a certain percentage (let’s say 5 or 10%, up to a certain maximum) of their own health care expenses…
I laugh at a lot of the people who make comments about not wanting to be part of a socialist system. Few of them know what that means. Most haven’t a clue as to the difference between a Republic and a true democracy.
Half of them don’t vote, can’t tell you what the electoral college is etc.
No kidding. I don’t vote (because I figure they will corruptly put whoever they want in place, anyhow-remember the chads?)
However, I do know that we and most countries are a cross between the two. In the same token, we don’t really have a laissez-faire economy or a command economy. We have a hybrid of the two.
Incidentally, we’re not devoid of social medicine. If you’re REALLY dirt poor, you can get medicaid. But, I think you can only make something like $700 and something a month. Whatever it is, it’s insanely low.
707$ a month for a single person (NY). Plus that person would get food stamps as well. Such a person (who only has to care for themselves) can definitely get by (share a cheap apartment with 2-3 other people). It wouldn’t be the life of luxury but then again, that’s not everyone else’s problem.
I’m all for everyone getting health care – which is why there is medicaid.
Definitely get by? Umm, on that, you need all kinds of gov’t programs. I needed teeth pulled and some other stuff, so I sacrificed for some months and had medicaid. Actually, the other option (shhhhhhh) is to work off the books so you can survive-even if it’s 15 hours a week while you do work somewhere on the books for about 15 hours a week.
Yes; indeed, I think that a prosperous country should care for it´s sick and not just let them rot in the street…
Hey Hesh
Check it out. If you move to England you get all the health care you want free. I moved here cause I’m was sick of paying for health care in the states. And guess what, if you’re poor they will give you a council house to live in for free. You don’t got to be on the HUD waiting list for 7 years. And a lot of other free shit too. Basically you will never be out on the streets or in a home less shelter.Thats gaurenteed. The government will take care of all your basic needs if your poor. Not like in the states where they don’t give a shit. See ya in London Hesh.
Peace Out
The government cares for its people in England and provides for the common good. Call me a red socialist, but at the end of the day I know I’ll have a warm cozy bed to sleep in, food and health care weather I have money or not. The constant “WORK OR DIE ” stress that I had in the states is no more. And that is a big relief!!!!
Socialism is a bad word because of the nazi type propoganda the right winger spew out there.
bottom line we have public schools, public police, public fire etc. that is socialism.
the insurance system is so FUCKED up, twisted, corrupt, i use this profanity because that is how mad it makes me.
Heshy– this line is absurd-
“…nor do I remember even wanting to pay for my own I sure as hell don’t want to pay for anyone elses “–
what bullshit propoganda anyway, because it happens already in the normal insurance program. you pay for your insurance for 6 months at $2-300 a month and then have a $10,000 procedure, who the hell do you think pays for that? the guy that has payed in for 20 years and has not had any major procedures thats who.
i hate scum bag insurence companies and their lobby tactics…
a public system could be no more fucked up then it already is, with one out of three personal bankrupcies due to medical expences, a huge gap in for the lower middle class, that make too much for medicaid, and not enough for a decent plan.
also heshy- life is the only true right we have, we have a right to live, we have a right to live well, and if i can call 911 if someone is about to rob my house on the govs dime (which doesn’t matter compaired to life ) then i should be to live on this goverments dime as well.
phil- your in canada- how is your health care?
last of all but most importantly an announcment to ALL
i am in the delivery room right now in the beginning stages of having our first baby. A Girl!! Channah Elisheva bas Dovid will be here soon!!
Baruch hashem, wish us holy naches!
congrats and best of luck! 🙂
Isn’t it also astonishly harder to get a job in Europe? Even to wipe @$$?
have you tried getting a job in America recently? (Clearly not or I don’t think you’d be saying anything.)
Michaltastik
1. I did not say Europah as a whole I only gave specific praise in England
2. My point exactly, it is harder to get a job, but who cares you don’t NEED one
Also cops arn’t so anal about weed and hookers arround here.(Not to say that it makes a difference to me)
Also cops arn’t so an*l about we*d and ho*okers arround here(Not that it make a difference to me). The attitude is “you’re an adult so you have the priveldge of making your own choices”. the cops don’t treat adults like kids. If you get pulled over you can argue with the cop for the reason you got pulled over. Try that in america, you’ll either got shot or wind up in jail.
well now you just get tasered the s@#t out of you. Nothing says “respect the law” like a few thousand volts of electricity running through your body.
My mantra is “Stop B@itchin about america, and get the h*ell out”. Only the rich are advantagous in america as the maximum tax is only %35( and some states don’t even have state income tax). So unless your a member of the bushwahzee, jump ship, america aint the only country in the world.
Funniest shit ever,
Heshy,
“…but I don’t think it’s a good idea, nor do I remember even wanting to pay for my own I sure as hell don’t want to pay for anyone elses…”
whats funny is that that already happens in a normal insurance policy.
if you pay insurance for 6 months then suddenly have a claim for $10,000 who the hell do you think pays that tab? you? PAH! no way. the guy that has been paying in for 20 years and has not had anything major done to him. its the same thing. bottom line if you get cancer and it costs you 300,000 to get rid of it (maybe) who pays the differential? other people’s money!!! happens all the time.
BTW everyone- I am in the delivery room waiting to have my first child.. a girl!!!
Channah Elisheva Bas Dovid will be born in a couple hours!!!
Hesh
Please get rid of these silly cartoon faces, they’re drivin me nuts
I do live in the country to the North of you–Canada, and we do have universal health care….it is not perfect, but the idea of these things called HMO’s and having them tell you who your doctor can be sounds weird….and the rates are crazy…my sister lives in Chicago and as a Canadian was shocked at what it costs, and she is a CFO of a Fortune 500 company. I would not sleep if my health care was attached to my job….
I do applaud you guys, ( Americans) for at least tackling what is one of the most contentious issues in your country..we are only as strong as our weak–well at least that is what I believe!
Good luck tackling the issue……
All the best!
Watch Michael Moore’s “Sicko”. It’s entertaining and informative.
Health care is a right but there are ways to do it without bankrupting the system. Obama has no interest in making it really work or he would come up with a better plan.
Forcing everyone to have health insurance only makes the insurance companies fat and they don’t pay out anyway.
I don’t claim to know the answer but a solution does exist.
Well perhaps there is an alternative to having insurance companies…I mean I don’t have the answer, but I just can’t believe there are people who can’t afford health care and can’t get proper treatment…but you are working on it and that is the important thing….
Health care is absolutely a right. People keep forgetting that Jefferson wrote the words “…the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” If you go back and reread that, the first right in that phrase is “life.”
Having just returned from living in Israel – where I had govt-sponsored health care – and not yet having a job, I only have temporary insurance which covers emergency care only. No preventative medicine, no routine physicals or tests…just emergency situations. Paying entirely out-of-pocket for decent-quality health is cost-prohibitive unless you’re very rich. I just hope I don’t have tumors or something because I couldn’t afford the proper screening unless I got a job that provided a quality health care plan (and not all of them do).
We live in a society in which so many believe that it’s fair to continue to allow the health insurance companies to deny coverage to people who need it only in order to make more money for their CEOs…and just because they’re scared of socialism.
Now, what kind of life is that, I ask you? Don’t you think that if Jefferson could see where we were today, he would be horrified?
You pointed out that socialism is not a bad word and you’re right. I don’t know what the political right of this country imagines when they hear that word – Red Russia? Cuba in 1959?
Hey Hesh
Can you PLEASE do away with these silly cartoon faces. After all I’ve contrbuted to your site this is the least you could do for me.
A beautiful baby girl born last night, i post it and not one yasher koach! lets me know no one is reading my posts…. : -)
Mazel!
Didn’t see your posts till just now. Mazel Tov! That is very wonderful news.
thanks she is great, 5 pounds 15 ounces… and a real looker, too. good thing- she is my ticket to an aliyah this shabbos…
FrumGer
Mazel Tov:)
Thanks
Health Care became an ABSOLUTE RIGHT when you took money OUT OF MY MEAGER PAYCHECK to build hospitals, train doctors & nurses, trained engineers to built life-saving equip, and used my money to develop drug therapies & treatments…..