Reading your blogs has given me confidence that you may be able to help in our logistical dilemma of where the hell we are supposed to be normal frum Jews amongst communities filled with such difficult, boring and materialistic people.
My husband ffb and myself more bt (but more ffb in spirit) are originally from England and moved to Cherry Hill, S Jersey then we moved a little further south to Highland Park, NJ. We are so perplexed as to where the Jews with some personality go as to us it seems that they are far and few between. We just want to find a community with at least a handful of young people who are normal and have some personality – that is that they can talk about something other than their blackberries or whether the whiskey is blended and can have a laugh here or there.
We were thinking of Monsey – but now after reading your blogs we are not too sure – were there any black suede, non-hat wearing people or women that semi-covered their hair/ or not at all in the vicinity or in the surrounding areas that seemed potentially interesting? Or are all Jews in America so painfully boring – please shed light on our dilemma.
My Response:
One of the first things that comes to mind when I think of Jewish communities in New Jersey is materialism, you should have researched your choices better – although the people I have met from both Cherry Hill and Highland Park were neither materialistic nor uninteresting (relative – because to me 99% of the population is boring – sucks being super cool like me) But materialism is something that pervades much of the east coast, Jews and non-Jews included.
You bring up good points but they are very vague, I think that when you say “interesting” it doesn’t really mean anything – since whether or not someone is interesting is all relative. I myself have found plenty of interesting people in the New York metro area. Reading my blogs doesn’t really shed much light since I am a cynical judgmental snobbish dude who find most people boring – I would probably find you boring as well, no offense of course.
In my mind when someone says they want “normal” people, I think normal people are uninteresting. Normal is boring, but what on earth is normal and what on earth is interesting. I myself like smaller Jewish communities, especially if they lack kosher restaurants, because that keeps large community types from overrunning your city.
With all of that said, I have found that the most interesting Jews in the New York area live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights in Brooklyn and West Orange in New Jersey. If you want to look at the larger picture – the most warm and friendly medium sized communities I have stayed in were Denver, Minneapolis, St. Louis and Dallas.
I have encountered interesting Jews everywhere, no one has a monopoly on interesting Jews, but maybe the readers can discuss where they have found interesting Jews.
Albany has a small community with a lot of converts/ BT (including me). Everyone is friendly, and if you move here you will be fielding Shabbos invites for quite a while. You may hear talk abt blackberries and whiskey, but not that often. I cant say there is one topic that really takes off-because any topic is fair game. Come up and visit for a Shabbos, see if you like!
their blackberries or whether the whiskey is blended
Whoa, this describes the modern yeshivish area of NJ where I live exactly to a T, except you didn’t mention that these people tend to be racist, too
where?
If you want interesting — the Lower East Side of Manhattan is a win in all categories. There’s no halacha police there, either, so you’ll be accepted as part of the community no matter your level of adherence to halacha.
Yes, there is the left-wing MO Stanton Street Synagogue that might meet what they are looking for.
However, the ghost of Rabbi Moshe (especially when somone wants to say “no” to things like an ereve) is present in the saving remnant of the few frummies left.
Check out http://www.yiop.org for a place that you will meet your needs to a T.
I live in Highland Park. Maybe it’s because of the fact that I’ve lived here from birth, but I’ve always found this to be a vibrant community. I’m not sure what personality you’re looking for, but people here are far from boring.
West Orange? Really?
I met some whacked out interesting folks during a shabbos spent iun West Orange – I was just trying to be nice, I hate NJ
I would agree that Monsey in the center of monotony. You won’t find much activity there. There is much live on there as there is on Mars. Unless you prefer that kind of environment, I’d sooner turn elsewhere for excitement and adventure. New York in general is very insular. I gather New Jersey is not much different. People living in more enclosed communities tend to be very clannish and cliquey and they don’t really have much associations with those who live outside of their boundaries thus limiting their exposures to other people. Most frum people tend to live in a more homogeneous environment where contact with the opposite sex is not so frequent. Most people living in such societies usually keep their distance from those who seem foreign to them. The thought of living more integrated is a misnomer to some of them. There are pros and cons that every region comes with. You just need to find a community that best fits your preference.
Memphis, Nashville
memphis yes…..nashville NOOOOOOOO!
What about Baldamore?
we are looking into jamaica estates, queens.
It is true that normal is ambiguous – and certainly true that it is a subjective opinion – however, what I mean by normal is someone who quite to the contrary is a little different and thinks for themselves, has an individual character and has charisma and personality – unlike many Jews who are almost like Jewbots
It is true that normal is ambiguous – and certainly true that it is a subjective opinion – however, what I mean by normal is someone who quite to the contrary is a little different and thinks for themselves, has an individual character and has charisma and personality – unlike many Jews who are almost like Jewbots – as for me I am extremely personable and charismatic 🙂
Steer clear of Baltimore and Toronto. Both are carbon copies of NY. If you want a large eclectic Jewish Community with all the comforts and tons of interesting people, try Los Angeles!
what is it with frum guys obsessing about whiskey? I know so many frum dudes who are all about different types of whiskey and will spend every gathering discussing the alcohol available and talk about “that one time the rabbi brought a bottle of blue label” or whatever. Oh yay, you can drink semi-expensive alcohol, I am truly impressed by that. :rollseyes: My brother can be like that, and whenever he gets started I just have to cut him off or it gets really out of hand. And by out of hand I mean boring.
Yeah, ok I think I just figured out the answer. It’s because these people are boring and can’t hold an interesting discussion about anything, so they start talking about whiskey, kinda the way some people start talking about sports.
my ex fiance even named his cat whiskey
Where do you live – you sound like a potential friend?
if you’re the one who posted the original post, then I actually live really close to you (just over the ben franklin bridge)- but I’m not frum (I’m one of those “off the derech” types and my husband isn’t jewish) and don’t do any jewish stuff, so I probably wouldn’t be the “normal” jewish person you want to be friends with.
I do know tons of jews of the type you describe (able to hold an actual conversation), and many in NJ, but most are either not orthodox, or are orthoprax (practice orthodox judaism but don’t believe in it).
I do know of some still-frum “normal people” young couples that live in New Jersey. Most live in Teaneck, if that’s of any help. 🙂
How did whiskey get a monopoly in the Jewish booze world? Why do I hardly see any rum? Am I the only Jew who would like to wash down my cholent with some Bacardi or Captain Morgan’s?
I for one, prefer pure Agave tequila, though I’ll drink just about anything except Gin.
Funny, I asked a similar question to a Lubavitch Rav on Simchat Torah: Why are modern Lubavitchers into fancy single malts while their ancestors were strictly Vodka drinkers; were there any chassidim in Scotland?
He answered, if there were any chassidim in Scotland, the rest of the world wouldn’t have single malt.
Chassidim in Scotland, what a good idea! There would be a Breslov Tartan, a Lubavitch Tartan, etc., and they’d dress head to toe in it (hats included). Yitzchak Mc Mordechai, ye iver heird of ‘im? S’ thi frrroomest lad on this glen, och aye he is.
Fs Fan,
Good one. I was thinking we could call them “Glenovitchers”. Then we can watch as single malt reserves plummet.
No.
Los Angeles is big like NY and has many NY-like people but also a lot of other types. Weather is also better.
How would you describe California Jews?
Where in California? Los Angeles is different than San Diego, San Francisco is different than San Jose…. and nothing can compare to the insanity of Berkeley =)
California is huge and each community is different from each other in terms of personality and distance.
I remember hearing a conversation between a reform rabbi and a conservative rabbi. the conservative rabbi’s son is a rabbi in berkley, and this very liberal reform rabbi called it “berzerkley”
“We were thinking of Monsey ”
LOL!!!! umm, NO!
You could move to Kew Gardens Hills, but you have to daven at Etz Chaim because that’s one of the modern shuls.
Mostly, I think that there are some interesting people everywhere. Manhattan people are different but, I think they are more shallow and materialistic, not too mention it costs a fortune to live there. There are interesting people hiding out in boring Flatbush. Steer clear of Forest Hills. The Americans are moving out and yet the remainder won’t accept people who they deem as not good enough for them.
Also searching for any Jews with non-Jewish hobbies – such as an interest in pool, martial arts (real fighting) and cars/ motorbikes?
Most communities outside of the NY metro area (Includes NYC, Monsey, Long Island, Baltimore, NJ) have Jews who actually know things other than whiskey and blackberries.
I know of someone in Pittsburgh who makes his own vodka and beer as a hobby… A person in Atlanta who builds race-cars and someone from Northern California (North of San Francisco) who competes in pool tournaments.
You’ll find oddities in the frum world once in a while. How many yeshiva guys do you kow that go ice fishing, or even regular sportfishing on a regular basis?
I’ve distilled my own rum, made my own wine, built my own firepit BBQ, still catch and fillet most of the fish I eat, and found people that share my interest to hang out with.
If you seek out likeminded people, you’ll find them. You’ll have a better chance of finding them in big communities.
I am not so sure you will have a greater chance of finding likeminded people in larger communities (I understand you are talking statistically). People in larger communities seem to be more worried about what their neighbors will think rather than being themselves. People in places like Los Angeles, Baltimore and Chicago were known for being “out of town” places, but now they are not much different in outlook than Boro Park, Flatbush and Monsey.
There is less peer pressure in a small town (In some places you can afford to be angry at anyone, because you might not get a minyan on Shabbos). In communities like that people who differ from the “norm” tend to make up most of the community, because they can be comfortable being themselves.
Abe,
I hear what you’re saying about the smaller communities, but too often, likeminded people don’t exist there or are very hard to come by. I lived in Dallas about 10 years ago, never found one Jew to fish with. I fished alone for a year.
I had a Jewish drinking buddy that wasn’t frum, he came over almost every Shabbat and we usually did beers once during the week as well. He loved extremely hot peppers, and as I pickle my own, we got along very well.
Here in Montreal, I’m the only one in my neighborhood that fishes. I still get funny looks from all the people on their way to shul / yeshiva in the morning when they see me loading the rods and net, as I’m the only one from this neighboorhood /community that fishes.
I still have mainly Jewish fishing buddies, my best one is m.o, but I have Breslov and sephardic ones as well. They mostlylive a few miles down the road in a different neighborhood.
I highly doubt I could ever find the same in most small frum communities.
Phil,
That is interesting… I have a friend who lives in Dallas now who loves fishing and boating. I have 2 friends who are mechanics from Pittsburgh, a vintner who used to live in Northern California, a bunch of gun guys from around the country (Dallas, Chicago, Denver, Pittsburgh, Toledo, Allentown, Atlanta) and other people not into mainstream hobbies.
A friend of mine from Pittsburgh is a martial arts instructor and has taught classes for the military… He is a computer hardware designer by trade.
Maybe you just miss the interesting folk for some reason =)
Abe,
I must have missed that Dallas angler. Anyway, I met all sorts of interesting people all over the place. But meeting someone who you share common interest with besides for the everyday routine of religious life, is a bit tougher.
As you see, when I didn’t find anyne to fish with there, I did so alone, and found a buddy I hade other things in common with, imported beer, high end tequila and exotic hot peppers (he’s from Mexico).
He wasn’t frum and I was, he was a left wing Jew in favour of Israel negotiating with Arafat, I’m a right wing followers of Kahanist ideology when it comes to dealing with the arab problem. So as you can imagine, we had a lot of heated discusions fueled by booze.
We still hook up whenever I’m in Dallas.
Yeah, but your a bigot, so that kind of fucks up everything you said right there.
My wife and I lived a few years in Harrisburgh and Pittsburgh. Both very nice communities. In general if you want an interesting friendly community you need to look at smaller communities – Harrisburg has one MO shul + small Chabad, and a few conservative and reform places of worship. It has an MO day school k – 8 and is only a 45 minute drive from Philly. The HS kids take a bus to Philly every day. Super friendly.
k… my family lives in monsey, do NOT move to monsey!!! yes you will find the occasional “normal” jew living over there, maybe even a few of them! but monsey is soo screwed up with politics its disgusting! and besides its boring as can be! nothing ever happens in monsey!
I’d agree with max, LA rocks!!!nice ppl, many different levels/variaties of jewish community, and best of all completely non-new york!!
I happened to have a particularly lovely time in West Orange when I spent a Shabbos there last year, so it definitely gets my vote. 🙂
Given that I have lived in or visited many Jewish communities across the country, I have to say that the most diverse communities have been outside the generally “known” areas. Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Toledo, Memphis and to some extent St. Louis are awesome communities with a sense of community where everyone is made welcome, no matter their background or observance level.
Los Angeles is horrible – stay away. The community is divided (Modern Orthodox vs. Yeshivish) and the main fight between them is how much they are not like each other. If you daven at the wrong shul, you are looked down upon (by both sides) and the entire city is materialistic and cares about money.
Richmond, VA
we have frum jews who ride motorcycles, have guns, dogs, pick up trucks. Mostly BT’s and gerim. Eiruv, a few mikvaos, day school, girl’s high school, boy’s yeshivah high school, yeshivah gedolah, great JCC, nice history.
I vote for West Hartford CT
Columbus, Ohio. I lived there for 3.5 years. Left for other reasons, but the people were great. The only boring thing they talked about was college football. (Go Bucks!)
Whoops, did I say the Buckeyes were boring? I may be risking excommunication from my friends back in Central Ohio. I meant to say GO BUCKS!!!!! JIM TRESSEL RULES! DOWN WITH MICHIGAN!
unfortuantely it may be a case of if you can’t beat them join them kind of thing. I wonder if there is a survival guide on google on how to survive a typical post davening kiddish. Here could be a preliminary guide: Discuss the booze like you really know what your talking about make the right faces use the hand gestures it always works. Discuss some shul politics chazan/rabbis speech. Discuss hobbies, mention poker and/or baseball football for the bt crowsds and you should be covered. Do not discuss any of these topics to avoid a flat affect response. Outdoor sports, cars, mma, boxing, Gilad Shalit, furure of jewish peopole to name a few.
You want the ultimate in “interesting” I would vote for Tzfas Israel, or Djerba Tunisia.
I hear you. Difficult though if have family. Btw I just happen to read about Djerba the other day. Fascinating!
If you want non-materialistic and non-boring people move to Israel. Everyone in America is somewhat materialistic. If you don’t want to listen to people talking about their blackberries, find a place to live where they can’t afford them.
Every place has it’s politics and no one town is perfect. Find a good school and a few good friends and stay.
Ha, I was just about to say the same thing! We actually live in a place in Israel where pple can afford Blackberries, but we’ve managed to find some friends that aren’t obsessed with them.
southern california should be better, but if materialistic is your problem, then US is the absolutely mega super ultra wrong country to be …
The lower east side is, for the most part, really down to earth. There are lots of interesting people here, from many walks of life and of varying levels of religiosity. Normal? Well, that’s debatable!
@Abandoning Eden. I live in Teaneck and would like to meet some normal people.
We should have a social experiment and all get together to see who really is interesting and my version of normal
Normal people don’t read this blog. We’re all f**cked up in our special way.
Speak for yourself, Phil.
i prob agree with Phil, and since the readership is so spread out i dont think its technically for Btwn2worlds idea to come to fruition!
I agree with Phil and Yakov – but it was a nice idea in theory
Maybe have a thread that lists hobbies that might be considered strange or interesting in the frum world.
I think Hesh posted something like that last winter, not long after I posted the something about being too busy ice fishing.
I think it’s pretty clear from the comments that as we know, no 2 Jews are alike. The best thing to do is to spend shabbos in any place you’d like to consider and try to get a real feel for the place — no one can tell you how you will feel there.
Along those lines, feel free to drop me a line if you’d ever like to spend a shabbos in B-more. It’s got plenty of ups and downs, but I figure so do all places. I can’t guarantee you that we’re interesting people, but we do have a book of Monty Python scripts next to our Shas Bavli 🙂
Ari,
Spending Shabbos in a location is a good start, but your impression as a tourist will usually be very different than your impression as an immigrant.
Can’t argue with you there, but:
1) seeing it yourself, even as I tourist, I believe is more accurate than soliciting public comments.
2) There’s no rule that says you can only visit a place once 🙂
is that an invite for shabbos Ari 🙂
100% our house is always open if you can accept some good old fashion apikorsut at the shabbos table 🙂 I don’t know Heshy’s comment rules but I’ll post an e-mail: info at funnyfrumfashion.com
Check out the Jewish Outdoors Club (Manhattan/etc.).
Highland Park is awesome. I don’t know how ‘young’ of young people they are looking for but Rutgers is RIGHT there. Lots of 20-30 year olds in various academic/sciencey fields, you can walk to everything, everyone says hi.
I moved down to Baltimore and boy, do I regret it. Just not as friendly down here as good old HP.
Anon.
G academic/science fields that must make for riveting conversation.. I’ve always wanted to chat about isotopes and academia over a shabbat lunch. Where can I find these ppl, Im sure they are very hard to come by.
What about protons, I love protons.
I do not agree. I went to Highland Park for a Shabbos and no one spoke to me or my family without some serious prodding from my friend who lives there. Where was the friendliness that you speak of?
I think the issue here is even JEWS are human and for the most part human beings are dull, narcissistic conformists, The women love their Oprah and the men like their sports. Musical tastes are pretty much what radio format dictates. There are very FEW cultured people and the ones that are are equally annoying in their own right sometimes. I have worked blue collar and white collar and to varying degrees whether it’s a discussion over a some stupid drinking misadventure or some dull saturday fishing exploit or what happened at the golf club goyim are no more interesting unless you REALLY think Sean Penn or Alec Baldwin are SOOO important not to mention that affected accent Johnny Depp seems to have adapted for himself. Frum people are humans -outside of keeping shabbos kashrus -ordinary banter is kind of dull. In the Yeshivah world if you aren’t talking shop something is wrong with you because you are not “correcting” your speech, directing it to only a torah subject. In the Modern circles it’s idle gossip and whatever heirs might be fashionable at the time. If you are shy, in a different vocation than others, or maybe make ANY faux pas your going to be an outsider. Jews are no exception. It’s the way aninimals selectively breed going as far as killing their own either by pecking to death the bird with the spot or by the dominat male chasing all the others away. As jews we are offended that WE are not better so we expect our peers to be better. I’m saying you can’t change the world and don’t expect much. I am also saying it’s not jews exclusively that are the problem. The grass is no greener. I think the next time you see someone whom you find weird or maybe someone whom YOU might not normally socialize with and ask WHY? If you have no practical reason NOT to then just introduce yourself. Today I introduced myself to some guy at sunday shul breakfast who looked worse for wear and made some smalltalk, and offered him a seat. He was having a hrd time looking for a place -turns out he wasn’t insane or weird at all, he just had a hard run of luck. I shared that I have been there -almost becoming homeless at some point and although there wasn’t much I could do I COULD make him feel like a mench!