Not a day goes by where we don’t hear of a newspaper refusing to publish pictures of women, or of someone photoshopping a picture to appear more “tznius”. Why is there such an overblown obsession with keeping things tznius to the point that it’s not about what’s inside anymore and only about what’s on the outside. Of course, I’m not so sure that photoshopping a few photos or refusing to publish pictures of women is the right way to combat the epidemic of knees and sexy sheitles.
But what happened to making people feel good about themselves without always judging their outward appearance. This constant focus on tznius and pritzus can’t be doing the community any good. It’s boiled down to men not being able to control themselves and women having to pay the price by being treated with less dignity and respect than ever before. Ever notice how it’s man’s nature to be animal like and women’s nature to be on a higher spiritual level. Why then do women have to always sacrifice?
It seems that in the name of tznius things have gotten so focused on tznius that it’s at the point where people pounce on any so called breach in the guidelines of tznius. God forbid we publish a picture with elbows or knees in it, but if people have such taiva’s and desires for elbows and knees maybe it’s time to start looking at man’s role in tznius rather than always trying to persecute the ladies.
Amen.
i agree
very well said
It’s about control. Control of a particular lifestyle in the face of increased freedoms for women in the secular world. Control over women’s bodies when their minds are being set free. Control when women are getting college degrees and men are emasculated sitting in kollel all day. It’s about trying to say “look, I’m a man, and I’m in charge!”, when they clearly are losing that traditional control. It’s about saying to women that they’re just a bunch of female parts, and that’s ALL they are, reaffirming frum men’s notions that they are the masters of the Jewish universe.
Every single shot in the ten-ring.
The only thing I’d add is that these are the same people who believe their religious devotion is the purpose of the Universe, that they are the world’s natural Lords and Masters and that everyone else’s only purpose is to serve them.
Treating women like crud is only a symptom, not the whole pathology.
I dont agree about god not wanting us to publish a womans knee or elbow. Just look at the internet. If you want to see a womens knee or her beaver you just ask. Do a search for kosher beaver and see what you get! I love Beaver. I love women especially if they are showing me their beaver.
If you accept the premise that religion is about control, everything else is pretty easy to follow from there. And when you have one race/gender/tribe/whatever in power (in this case, male Rabbis), they’re going to exert that control over everyone else.
Everybody here commenting has seemed to have bought into the feminist
worldview so deeply, that it has become the only hammer they have and everything they see is a nail.
Fact is, when I walk down the street and I see a woman dressed in a revealing way, she IS just a bunch of parts to me, and if I was of a lower moral standing I might take an opportunistic advantage of her.
This happens all over the world, all the time.
The question is one of being right vs being smart. In an ideal world everybody would be nice and overcome their yetzer hara/instinct and men would not objectify women. But what about those who won’t and don’t? Are you going to risk it?
hmm…. classic blame the victim mentality.
men of “lower moral standing” cannot control themselves when seeing an elbow or a knee?
quick! break out the burlap sacks!
And yet, secular Jews and goyim who don’t have the benefit of toireh don’t all think this way. And they don’t assume that an elbow or a collarbone will turn any red-blooded man into a drooling rape-robot. Most are able to have normal conversations with women without tripping over their own tongues. And they can go to the beach and see pretty girls in bikinis without embarrassing physical reflexes.
How can that be?
Have you no compassion for your fellow human being, for her dignity? I am straight and as “enthusiastic” about women as the next straight guy, but this sounds literally dehumanizing
Do you view your sister that way? Or do you see her as a human being with problems, strains, pain, people who depend on her, work to do, goals to reach?
If this is what religion makes, keep me gentile and secular. Have you figured out that this is unmentshlich? Have you figured out that it’s your eye, not her hemline, that is immodest?
If you can’t look at a woman without raping her you are criminally insane and need to be locked up for everyone’s protection. If you think it’s the way normal people think and act you should seek help from a certified mental health professional immediately.
I’m deadly serious about this. The vast majority of people ARE NOT barely controlled violent criminals who are triggered by normal human interaction. Your connection to reality is tenuous, and your ideation is extremely troubling
Which is why it is high time we consider enforcing tznius rules for men. Men should wear veils, or turbans covering their faces, to prevent them from seeing women. They should be denied the right to drive or leave the house, as well. This should hopefully curb their animalistic appetites.
where’s the satire?
Says the guy who just posted a picture of two women in bikinis.
Have you ever heard the goyishe saying Honi soit qui mal y pense?
Ultra Conservative said, “In an ideal world everybody would be nice and overcome their yetzer hara/instinct and men would not objectify women. But what about those who won’t and don’t? Are you going to risk it?”
Is *who* going to risk *what*? The only risk I see here is that, at this rate, Orthodox Jewish women will be condemned to bundle up in burqas before I’ve even breathed my last.
One way or the other it *is* all about men and control, whether you follow Philo’s logic that men want to retain their power over women, or whether you follow Ultra Conservative’s logic that men can’t control their desires when around women who are not modestly dressed. Either way, we women always pay the price.
“maybe it’s time to start looking at man’s role in tznius rather than always trying to persecute the ladies.”
Persecution it is, indeed. Good choice of words, and well said, Heshy.
I wholeheartedly agree with the title of this post, but why does it have to be one or the other? Why can’t we decry the lack of appreciation for ‘what’s on the inside’ without denigrating people for working on a certain area of Halacha? Sure, people do go way overboard with the Halacha sometimes, but that’s a different discussion. I just don’t agree with the attitude that tznius in dress and superficiality are necessarily intertwined, and it seems like that attitude is being implied here by a few people.
The problem is that doing that much work on that area of Halacha whizzes past neurosis, passes obsession like it was standing still and is presently gaining on Chiroptera-Scat Crazy.
Any virtue becomes vice or insanity when it is grows without moderation.
I find it hard to listen to talk of moderation in Halacha from someone who doesn’t believe in it. You’re essentially saying “this much craziness is tolerable, but that much is over the line.” Obviously someone who doesn’t share your premise that Halacha in general is craziness will have a different idea of moderation within Halacha.
You don’t have to be a True Believer to get that part. It’s a basic human truth, understood by all except mindless drones and certifiable loons.
If you take anything too far it becomes madness. The fact that your obsessions and compulsions are fed with a tznius ruler instead of the stopwatch you use to make sure you wash your hands every three minutes and sixteen seconds is immaterial.
If someone is controlled by his Evil Inclination forcing others to restrict or harm themselves won’t free him from it. It is up to him to learn some self control or to the Community to force him to behave.
If your dog bites you train him not to or leash him or get rid of him. You don’t force everyone else to wear armor and increase the thickness every year just in case he’s found a way to get past the old suit.
Look at how screwed up the Saudis have gotten. Married Arab women have covered their hair for a long time. But then it became required. And then they had to wear abayas. Then a veil that covered most of their faces. And they can’t drive. And they have to have escorts everywhere. And they can’t move around without a male relative’s permission.
But Saudi men didn’t suddenly become chaste, virtuous and faithful. So now mullahfukkas are saying women should wear gloves and a veil that only shows one eye because hands and both eyes are just too hawt hawt hawt.
We haven’t gotten that crazy yet. But we’re working on it.
Spot on, Heshy