The ground zero mosque situation is pretty screwed up, that’s like a bunch of Jews building a Baruch Goldstein memorial park near Chevron. Woa, wait a second, in 2002 I camped out in the Baruch Goldstein memorial park in Kiryas Arba, but let’s give the Israelis credit, they had compassion and didn’t build the thing right next to the site where he gunned down a bunch of Muslims who were in the middle of shachris. The Cordoba Center as the ground zero mosque is officially called, is being built in the same neighborhood as a tragedy that made people really hate the Muslim world.
This kind of reminds me of the flotilla situation, we all knew what was going to happen, it was a ploy to make Israel look evil and ignorant and this ground zero mosque business seems like the same thing. It rubs people the wrong way when you decide to build something that for most people symbolizes Islam, while it’s right next door to their reason for hating Islam (people lump all Muslims together as evil terrorists) So of course, it makes everyone who doesn’t want it there look ignorant and those who are pro-ground zero mosque look so open minded.
However, I don’t think anyone has the right to tell them not to build it there, they own the property and it’s a free country, it may be in poor taste, but there is something called zoning – for instance you can’t build a porn superstore next to a school. They have the right to build it there, the protesters also have a right to protest and try to make the Cordoba Center folks cave to public pressure.
Interesting quote from the AJC
But in this vast country, why, of all places, does the center need to be there? Will it really serve as a place for healing, repentance, and interfaith cooperation? Or will that prove a facade, designed to get the project approved and divert attention from the fact that the 9/11 plotters all prayed in mosques and believed they were acting in the divine name?
I myself see both sides, but I am one to uphold personal freedoms, everyone is offended by something. Let’s say a shul wants to build in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood – the situation could be very similar.
Or is this what it is?
I should mention that one of my favorite comedy bits to do in my shows took place at that Burlington Coat Factory location where the Cordoba Center is supposed to be built.
Honestly, I’m just impressed anyone could ever come to consider a former Burlington Coat Factory site to be sacred ground. Sacred? To Satan, maybe.
There’s some guys blog that shows the “Sacred Ground” full of “Gentleman’s” clubs and fast food joints.
For many folks that is all they find sacred..
Do I think it’s poor judgment on their part? Absolutely. Do I think that in a free country we have any right to stop them, given the laws involved. Not in the slightest. I think that for their own sake, they’d be wise not to use that site and to build further away, simply because I’m betting the site will be a constant target for vandals, arsonists, etc. The best security in the world isn’t perfect. I’m with you on this, I think. I see both sides. I certainly wouldn’t be out protesting if I lived near there, but I can understand what motivates people to do so. In a nutshell, though, I think people are making a mountain out of a mosque. Or technically, an ICC (Islamic Community Center). If someone could prove that it was being funded by Qaeda money or some other terrorist group, my feelings would be very different. But since that’s not the case, I think it’s foolish to fight it.
It’s not poor judgment, it’s intentional.
still on what basis would you ban it?
he said it quite eloquently. it’s not just about rights. it’s about what is right.
http://www.aish.com/ci/s/100866334.html
I’d just like to say that you make some of the best responses on this board. Well done!
We cant ban something just because it isnt right.
i think they could do many other things with that prime real estate like a porn superstore which they could tax the hell out of. And here in Pittsburgh, there is a performing arts school (grades 8-12) right next to a “gentlemen’s” club.
As long as there is not a fake ID vendor in between.. then, that’s wrong..
it is far enough away. you should concentate on rebuilding ground 0, 9 years later you’ve built nothing with it. this protest is just massive displacement
the protesters make america look insane, so you should worry about your own image and provocation.
The controversy is especially stupid considering there is ALREADY a mosque about a block away from the site of this new mosque. It’s been there for 40 years, and no one is going crazy over its proximity to Ground Zero.
Look up “Masjid Manhattan” on Google Maps. Look how close it is to Ground Zero. Big whoop.
Just to nip this in the bud here are a few actual facts. Not bullcrap like Newt is spouting about “claiming territory” or “Islamic conquest”.
It isn’t a mosque. It’s more like a JCC or YMCA
It isn’t even within sight of the Sacred Shrine to Eternal Fear
It includes a 9/11 victims’ memorial
There are already mosques closer to the WTC site
There’s a mosque inside the other target, the Pentagon. Nobody seems to mind
Mr. Rauff is a Sufi which means the fanatics hate him more than they hate us
And he’s worked tirelessly to support a vision Islam which is compatible with the Enlightenment
He comes endorsed by former President Bush
And he has been speaking out against terrorism for years
Several hundred of the American Martyrs to Terror were Muslim
Tens or hundreds of times as many Muslims die in terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists as do Americans
You might as well say no Christian churches should be allowed near the Murrah Federal building or the Reformation Lutheran Church. Oops. Too late.
Now that aside, here’s the crux of the matter. The hatred and bigotry assume that we’re in some kind of Holy Crusade against all Muslims, that all Muslims are responsible for what happened nine years ago. They weren’t. And they aren’t.
The bigots don’t want to stop there. If two blocks are too close, what about three thousand miles? That seems to be too much for the terrified Christians because they are protesting mosques in Ohio, California, Tennessee and other States. And the head of just about the biggest Christian Fundamentalist group, the AFA, has proposed that no mosques be permitted anywhere in the US.
If there’s another legal attempt to block construction it will run into two Clinton and Bush era laws which make it very difficult to stop religious groups from using property for religious purposes. These laws were lobbied for incessantly by the same Christian groups which now want to deny them to other religions.
I suppose the Sacred Rights of Property and Religious Freedom only apply to the right sort of people. This makes them, well, pretty darned worthless as civil rights.
There are two other, purely pragmatic reasons to oppose the hysteria.
First, if we allow this sort of precedent back into the country Jews will absolutely be the next targets. A lot of the “anti-Zionism” is already poorly disguised anti-Semitism. “No more wars for the Jews” shows up a lot.
Second, the hate is doing Osama bin Laden’s work for him. From the beginning his shtick has been pretty clear. “Muslims, the West hates you. It wants to take away your religion, treat you like dirt and kill you. No matter how much you compromise they will always oppress you. I am your only hope.”
The hate-mongers and bigots are pushing Western Muslims right into his hands. Muslims’ rights don’t have to be respected the way Christians’ rights do. Muslims’ religion doesn’t deserve the freedoms that Christianity does. No matter how peaceful, pro Western-values and even endorsed by Republican Presidents they are the will still get be treated, at best, as second class citizens.
What a perfect recruitment tool for the extremists. It’s almost as good as the Abu Ghraib photos or the horrors of Bagram.
Thanks for the information – appreciate the comment
“A. Nuran”, August 17, 2010, on your website:
” It isn’t a mosque. It’s more like a JCC or YMCA”.
Now read this:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0810/park51.html?showall
“We’re actually a Muslim community center that’s
like a JCC or YMCA, not a mosque.”
Interesting.
Not much more to say about this one.
Awesome comments; can’t even think of a single thought to add. Thank you so much A. Nuran. Especially for mentioning the Sufist bent of the center. :^)
The wife of the planned mosque’s imam goes out in public with her hair uncovered. Seems pretty moderate to me.
My thoughts exactly- only articulated soooooo much better than I ever could!
A. Nuran. Perfect. I appreciate your concise summary of the issue. There is no reason or logic behind putting up a mosque anywhere there are Muslims who want to pray. Period. End of story.
Oops. To prevent putting up a mosque. Duh.
Well, this is a first; reading a comment of yours and not thinking “what a prat”. Although I do think that some of the comments were a little distasteful (calling the site where 3000 innocent people lost their lives “the sacred shrine to eternal fear” is a bit unfair…), I have to agree with pretty much everything you put forward here. Just out of interest, if you had been around 50 years ago, what would your opinion have been on the Aushwitz Convent? The one that didn’t happen after the then Pope called it “disrepectful to the memories of those who were massacred there”. Just out of interest…
I thought the convent was disrespectful. Unlike the cultural center, it was not a center for outreach and healing, it was an attempt to appropriate Auschwitz and impose a catholic presence on it. that would have been historically inaccurate and a great insult, especially considering the role of the Vatican in WW II. The convent was an attempt to redefine the meaning of Auschvitz and its victims.
The cultural center is an attempt to build bridges and offer a chance to become more understanding- on both sides-. Opponents have no wish to learn anything or build any bridges in the interest of the greater good. Some people cling to their bigotry like a favorite teddy bear. Jews and Germans have come to terms with the past- through a lot of hard work, painful dialogue and a desire for a better world. Rauf is trying to do that here. I remember the lessons of the Holocaust. I guarantee you the likes of Palin, Guiliani, Lazio, and Limbaugh certainly don’t.
This. Thread over.
/thread
An endorsement by GW isn’t a big plus for me!!!
>You might as well say no Christian churches should be allowed near the Murrah Federal building or the Reformation Lutheran Church. Oops. Too late.
Well that doesn’t make sense. The Murrah federal building was not attacked on behalf of Christianity.
>Second, the hate is doing Osama bin Laden’s work for him. From the beginning his shtick has been pretty clear. “Muslims, the West hates you. It wants to take away your religion, treat you like dirt and kill you. No matter how much you compromise they will always oppress you. I am your only hope.”
The fact that others can become offended, and therefore use this against us, is never an argument. The argument should always simply be….the law.
The right wing media is painting it as if they were to build a Tim McVeigh Cultural Center there
Thanks, Nuran. Much love to the peaceful of all (and no) faiths.
btw
I know, in certain groups, its a reflexive move to simply call everyone you disagree with as bigots and hate-mongers. It’s hip. I get it.
I also know, there are people that are bigots.
But I also know that there are people out there that disagree with the ICC because they truly think its insensitive to what happened there and, like many people in the world do fear Islam. And guess? For those people out there that fear Islam, a fear of Islam, in our days is not something that is out of left field. It’s not like a fear of wikans that really, has no source in reality.
Perfectly said. Someone I know said he objected to the fact that moderate Muslims had not spoken out against terrorists or stepped up to the plate. Well, Park51 is a perfect example of moderate Muslims speaking out and stepping up.
Sacred ground? There are strip clubs within 2 blocks of Ground Zero- how sacred is that? And I am speaking as someone who worked in the recovery for close to 9 months and I am friends with many family members and workers. The guy holding that poster? I know him- he’s not Jewish. And I found the poster profoundly offensive.
Now let’s talk about insensitivity. Many workers who were Muslim died on the Towers. At least one first responder was a police cadet who rushed down to the site and died trying to save people. Funny how no one seems to care about these people.
Jewish groups have been working with Iman Rauf, some for many years, to promote interfaith understanding. Other Jewish groups have come out in support which makes the ADL’s actions even more shameful. The protests are shameful too. Don’t think for a moment that those who practice bigotry against Muslims are incapable of practicing it against Jews, Blacks, gays, or any other minority.
If you really believe that the WTC si sacred ground- and I do- then you would see the center for the bridge to healing it is meant to be. Muslims saw their faith hijacked on 9-11. They want it back. I see fellow Americans working hard to build bridges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPmLP5BD63Q
Sid Roth has an agenda to get Jews to unite with Christians… so they all become Christian…. so what he puts out is tainted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNGwZ0zfPhs
Just my 2 cents. I think it’s utterly tasteless and insensitive to build a mosque near Ground Zero. I have nothing against Islam but this is an act of provocation, not bridge building. You don’t have to be a bigot to be able to agree with me. Also the imam behind this isn’t such a saint. He refuses to condemn Hamas and no one really knows who is funding this mega mosque. Why so close to Ground Zero? Why a name like Cordoba House, which was a city the Muslims conquered from the Christians?
I was in NYC the day the towers fell. I never gave Islam a second thought until then. Since then I’ve been grappling with my confusion about the religion, I want to truly believe it’s a religion of peace “hijacked” by a small minority of lunatics but then I see stuff like this and it makes me very upset. It’s too bad the moderate Muslims are too intimidated/scared to speak up. But we got Mahla:)
The other shim is right. The imam is dodgy. I’ll try and find the article in the Sydney Morning Herald (an incredibly left wing paper) where he refused to call hamas terrorists and where he said the US had basically asked for 9/11 (those were not his words I’ll try and find his exact words.)
The points A.nuran makes are fine but just because you can lawfully do something doesn’t mean you should. It strikes me as tacky and insensitive.
That said it was stoopid of the ADL to get involved.
The proposed gay bar next door is a hilarious idea though.
Yeah, real dodgy. Endorsed by George W. Bush. Endorsed by the FBI. Has helped the FBI on counter terrorism for years, probably getting himself on the fanatics’ hit list in the process. Did I mention he’s a Sufi which means the hard-line countries think he’s a heretic who should be put to death.
Ok I looked at your link (Huffington Post, typical). The mosque is NOT endorsed by Bush or the FBI. Bush has said nothing about the mosque at all, and believe me I checked. I found at article dated from YESTERDAY that said as of now GWB hasn’t even commented on the mosque. So the imam worked with the FBI seven years ago. BFD. Get your facts straight and I might take you more seriously.
You’d be surprised how many guys raised Muslim are on the down-low:) I went to art school with a few of them, including a pre-op tranny:)
I dont care for muslim’s either but for the life of me i dont get the protestor’s. On what basis would the mosque/ islamic center be banned? Its not nice, its insensitive, its a provocation those are all emotinol reasons not legitimet reasons to ban a house of worship. Or are they?
“I think it’s utterly tasteless and insensitive to build a mosque near Ground Zero.”
Fine. Just define “near”.
Here’s the NY post article about how Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf refuses to condemn Hamas. That basically means he supports it and is afraid to say it because that would be bad PR.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_terror_error_efmizkHuBUaVnfuQcrcabL
A. Nuran says: “here are a few actual facts.
. . . It isn’t a mosque.”
How stupid do you think we are?
It is a mosque. One designed to accomodate 2,000 in prayer.
I know this is a crazy idea but how about we all decide
pro or con the “ground zero mosque” based on TRUTHFUL ,
FACTS, rather than on “how one feels” about “the concept”?
So, at the risk of burdening everyone’s brains
with the cumbersome job of looking at the REAL FACTS,
(which by the way, are missing from most “news” reports
on this subject, lest they get in the way . . .),
Important information:
1. Abdul Rauf, chief proponent of the mosque project has said
about the 9/11 attacks (on 60 minutes, in 2001) “. . . the
United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime
that happened.” Americans can blame themselves for 9/11.
2. Abdul Rauf, chief proponent of the mosque project has said
that he DOES NOT agree with the U.S. State Department’s
assessment of Hamas as a terrorist organization.
You know, the Hamas that is PROUD of the Sbarros Pizzeria
bombing, Dolphinarium Disco bombing, Moment cafe bombing . . .
(Rauf condemns “terrorism”! but not Hamas. . .)
3. Abdul Rauf said he would raise money from solely from the Muslim
American community. AND THEN told a London-based Arabic-
language newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat that he would seek funding
from Muslim and Arabic nations. No one knows for sure who has been financing this project from the start, and no one seems to care.
4. The project includes a mosque to provide space for Friday prayers
for 1,000 to 2,000 Muslims, as well as a 500-seat auditorium.
There may be people opposed to this project based on general
anti-Muslim prejudices. In fact, ABC News, NBC News, CBS News,
Mayor Bloomberg, Ibrahim Hooper, J street, and a host of other
“progressives” would LOVE to have you believe that PREJUDICE
is the ONLY possible reason to oppose the “ground zero mosque”.
WHAT THEY DO NOT WANT spread around though (and ABC,
CBS, NBC and other stooges seem in compliance on) ARE the
facts 1, 2, and 3 above – which are rarely mentioned.
In other words ladies and gentlemen, the mosque at ground zero,
make no mistake, WILL BE a mosque where muslims will go to
hear their imam say, before during and after “prayers”:
1. 9/11 was punishment on the Americans for their misdeeds.
2. Hamas is not a terrorist organization.
3. The USA and Israel need to be punished. Allah hu Akhbar!
And they will laugh. and laugh. at the useful idiots who helped
them place the “mosque in honor of 9/11” (oops, only SOME
of the more extreme elements “worshiping” there will openly
call it that . . . at least in the begining).
Make no mistake, there are Muslim New Yorkers
(and Mosques) who were horrified by 9/11 ,
but THIS “Ground Zero Mosque” is not them.
It IS, those who can’t bring themselves to condemn Hamas,
as a terrorist organization.
It IS those who blame america first, for 9/11.
It has been the “Cordoba House” after Cordoba, a mosque built atop a Christian cathedral in the capital of the Caliphate of Córdoba during the period of Muslim rule in Spain.
Oh, by the way, in his post attack video release, Osama bin Laden explicitly designated the attack as revenge for the loss of Cordoba and
Andalusia to the Spanish in the 15th century.
Someone please let us know when we finally get to see where
all the money for the Cordoba project Ground Zero Mosque, came from. Thanks in advance.
“Cordoba House” after Cordoba, a mosque built atop a Christian cathedral in the capital of the Caliphate of Córdoba during the period of Muslim rule in Spain.
Just for the record: the place was originally a Roman temple, then a Christian church, then a mosque, now a mosque with a Christian cathedral inside (no Muslim use allowed in any part of the building). So I don’t think there’s any “we won” message attached. I guess the reason for them to choose that name is that it brings to mind a period in which very moderate Muslims, Jews and Christians coexisted more or less happily. In fact, the Cordoba caliphate came to an end when a wave of fanatic and uneducated Muslims invaded Spain, well before the Christians re-conquered the place. Some people paint a very rosy-tinted version of the Cordoba caliphate, but the fact is that this is probably the best instance in European history of the three different cultures keeping separate but living peacefully in the same places and talking to each other.
Frum Satire Reader,
Thanks so much for that. You don’t have to be against Islam or be some sort of racist bigot to be against a mosque at Ground Zero and you just proved it. People like ourselves are against the racist bigotry people like the imam represent. If you refuse to condemn Hamas and even imply 9/11 was America’s fault, you fall into the bigot category.
Rauf made an honest statement about American foreign policy and how it affects the perception of us. Bush has completely ruined whatever credibility we had and tell me how what Rauf said compares to what Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said, only a day or so later. The we deserved what happened because we are an “immoral” nation and we support gay rights. I find that far more upsetting and reactionary. And totally, outrageously stupid. So you can beef all you want about Rauf only after you ply some righteous anger on some true jerks.
You sound so eloquent in your defense of your bigotry. You almost sound like you know what you’re talking about, instead of just repeating right wing bullet points of fearmongering. Maybe you need to find out some real facts before you proclaim so confidently about yours. I swear every single opposing viewpoint on the CULTURAL CENTER repeats almost verbatim the same rightwing talking points. What is it with you guys and boilerplate? And please. fer cripes sake, get over the whole “Cordoba” thing- or do you think the Inquisition was an improvement? What do you suppose Ferdinand and Isabella did with all those wonderful buildings left by the Moors when they were kicked out of Spain? Hint: They didn’t allow Muslims to pray in them any more. So stop the whining over the church converted to a Mosque- its been hundreds of years already.
Gosh you people are so full of US pc bs. Every place Muslims conquer they build a mosque, usually on other religion’s holy sites. (Maybe this is appropriate as americans are united in their worship of money?).
On the bright side, as Jews they might suffer you to live.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Muslim_places_of_worship_into_mosques
I have a wide variety of Facebook friends, and when I look at my FB wall about 80% of the posts these days are from people on opposing sides of this issue posting stuff about this Islamic center …. Half pro, half con and in the most polarized, hysterical terms imaginable. :^O
It’s getting so bad I am considering ‘hiding’ some of these people, but pro AND con, until the controversy is over.
If they actually build this, and it looks like they are going to do so, especially since the plan has Bloomberg’s strong backing, I plan to personally visit it myself, meet the imam and try to figure out what the deal is. I’ve always wanted to visit New York City anyway. :^)
Mahla
When you do visit the mosque please write an article about it and I’ll be the first to read it.
Those who currently support it in the name of free exercise of religion will eventually regret the replacement of twin towers with four minarets.
From your mouth to Murdoch’s ears.
What’s going to happen? The best estimates are about a million Muslims in the US, total. Are they going to kill off a couple hundred million Christians? Sneak in that many Swarthy Oriental rug-thumpers disguised as Mexicans? Hack the electronic voting machines so votes for sewer commissioner turn into votes to turn all the strip clubs into falafel stands?
If basic civil rights only apply to people you like they aren’t civil rights. What’s next, everyone, even a Jew, is free to worship Jesus Christ Our Lord in a Protestant Church of his own choosing?
If you really do want to take make Muslim’s second class citizens, take away their religion and kill them if they step out of line then you’re the best friend Al Qaeda ever had.
Absolutely! Maybe some of the people involved in the project are not-so-moderate? Maybe. But, institutionally, the center would be Sufi, which I think is the branch of Islam that’s most open to other traditions and easiest to relate to. These people embrace Western values and value interfaith dialogue etc. The best thing Western countries can do in this regard is to support moderate Islam, i.e. giving them money and making things easier for them; otherwise, the extremists and their oil dollars will win the day among the Muslim population, as it’s happening across Europe.
FrumSatire Fan, I very much agree with you. A couple of years ago I went to the Downtown library here in Eugene and I could not find a single ‘translation’ of the Quran that was not donated by or sponsored by Saudi Arabia. :^( I would invite people to check out their local libraries and see if they find the same. :^(
This whole discussion is so stupid.
Everyone knows there’s no legal basis for blocking the mosque. This is the perfect type of question for a polisci 101 creative thinking. I bet college kids are fighting about this in class right now to sound smart for the professor while he adjusts his bowtie and feels less of a failure for being the intro professor to a worthless science.
While I (unsurprisingly) agree with A. Nuran, my biggest issue is with the framing of this controversy.
If the mosque were actually being build on the footprint of Ground zero, it would be like the temporary convent at Auschwitz, which was on ground where Jews were killed.
But this mosque is not being built at Ground zero, but rather at the site of a Burlington coat factory. While I like a good bargain on a coat as much as the next guy, this is not holy ground, nor is it the spot where the Twin towers stood.
So I would frame this not as the “Ground Zero Mosque”, but as the “Burlington Coat factory Mosque”. And I don’t think there is a reasoned logic to preventing building a mosque (or anything else which satisfies the zoning regulations) at a former Burlington coat factory location.
Maybe you were not in lower manhattan that day. But there was world trade center debris and dust for many many blocks, including human remains. In fact, the NYT has reported that the landing gear of one of the planes ended up in this building. Two blocks is not very far, and while it is not the footprint of the buildings it is not simply a Burlington Coat Factory.
The entire city smelled like death for a week. The actual area reeked for a year. When I was dating my future husband he commented on the smell. He had been an EMT in Israel and had seen bombings. He told me the thing he remembered the most about the bombings was the smell of death. My husband told me that being in the subway around Wall Street 3 weeks after 9/11 brought back some awful memories.
There were papers from the building I found a day later scattered around my neighborhood in Brooklyn. The destruction was so total, so utter, that I can’t believe that anyone in their right mind would even CONSIDER this act of sacrilege. I may not be as “enlightened” as people like Nuran but I still remember. Most of you here have forgotten and swept your rightful feelings of indignation under the rug. I have not.
Legally they have every right to build there. If I were in their situation I would not have chosen that location, but it’s not my decision where to build.
But what does really bother me is that Obama just paid for him to go over to the Middle East so that he can raise funds to build this.
As someone who caught the live show on 9/11 (and as a grandchild of both holocaust survivors and a ww2 veteran), it sickens me that people are STILL using 9/11 as a way to erode our civil rights by preying on frightened people, nearly 10 years later. Habeus corpus (gitmo), unreasonable search and seizure (wiretapping), and now they’re going after the first amendment rights to freedom of religion?
Plus, if any potential terrorists think that America hates islamic people, and therefore they are justified in their actions against us, then this certainly isn’t helping matters.
This country is great because of our freedoms, it’s one of the only countries in the world where the state is kept entirely out of religion, and not to godwin my own comment, but how is this any different than Nazi’s restricting where jews could build shuls? Other than the specific religoin involved? You can justify it any way you want (oh terrorists were MUSLIM it’s INSENSITIVE OHNOES) but any action on the part of the government against this muslim cultural center would mean the crumbling of the very foundations of this country. And the more republicans speak out against it, the more unpatriotic they are being. Harry Reid too, he can DIAF.
well said
>and now they’re going after the first amendment rights to freedom of religion?
AE
Try to be precise and not reflexively emotional. Nobody is denying a freedom to worship. Nobody. The issue is a building
Hey HH, haven’t seen you in a while. 🙂
I’m going to have to disagree, the issue isn’t a building, the issue is the religious activities that will take place in the building.
>I’m going to have to disagree, the issue isn’t a building, the issue is the religious activities that will take place in the building.
Yes, but first, there needs to be a building. Their 1st amendment is still intact. Not one single protestor is denying the muslim religion.
im so upset that this is even a conversation. This is america, and you can do what you want, when you want where you want pretty much as long as it is within the confines of the law. So every conversation as to whether or not they should be allowed to do build it is irrelevant. Secondly, why is it disrespectful to build a mosque near ground zero? Did these people who are members of the mosque cause 911? Why should they be punished for the sins of the crazies who caused the tragedy. Saying that this mosque at ground zero is related to 9-11 is racism in disguise because it is connecting dots that are barely related. For example, my cousin was robbed once by a black person, does this mean I should fear all black people and not allow them into my store? Of course not.
I dont say im offended by the fact that they built a church in my all jewish area where i come from. But maybe I should be offended that they chose to build it “THERE” where all the jews live. The christians were the cause of so much of the jews suffering, perhaps by building a church they are sending me a message….
Another example-it has been said regarding this mosque that “why do they have to build it THERE, why cant they build it somewhere else??”
Thats equivalent to saying something like, oh i dont know, “we dont have anything against jews, but why cant they live somewhere else? Why do they have to live near us?”
Everyone keeps talking about “THAT SPOT” referring to ground zero and making all these connections that clear thinking people who can see things objectively dont get.
The logic of those who say that this mosque, and 9-11 are related is not fluid. I just dont see the connection….
And as someone pointed out, there has been a mosque near ground zero for 40 years! honestly, who would even notice if it was built without all this publicity? Who would care?
Probably no one.
No one’s protesting the 40 year old mosque because no one built it to silently celebrate their 9/11 “victory”.
In principal, any religious body can put up a building subject to zoning laws, anywhere they want.
Practically, I don’t want to see a Muslim building put up like some trophy, looming over the area, lauding the destruction of the Twin Towers. Two blocks is inconsequential. Nothing would keep them from decorating the building as they see fit or installing a prayer loudspeaker system. At that point, it would be too late to do anything.
These people that blindly shout First Amendment freedom of religion can’t then restrict my freedom of speech and tell me I can’t yell fire in a crowded theater without being hypocrites. They made a value judgment.
All these arguments about how many Muslims there are and how they couldn’t take over. Jews make up about 2% of the US population, yet according to the right-wing and left-wing and ignorant, most Jews are rich and have taken over everything already. Muslims Are Taking Over. They’ve done it in Europe and they’re working on it here. They realized that clueless moonbats don’t want to look like racists or bigots. As long as every argument is couched in freedom of religion, moonbats stop thinking and acquiesce.
I thought I’d never see the term “moonbat” on FrumSatire but there’s a first for everything!
“All these arguments about how many Muslims there are and how they couldn’t take over. Jews make up about 2% of the US population, yet according to the right-wing and left-wing and ignorant, most Jews are rich and have taken over everything already. Muslims Are Taking Over. ”
you just defeated your own argument. nice 1.
The First Amendment only applies to Federal Institutions, and has absolutely no bearing on “people shouting ‘fire’ in a crowded theater.” The First Amendment issue is a very complicated and involved issue, one that I can hardly do justice to in one post. For example, there’s the issue of censorship on TV and Radio that plenty of people have tried turning into a “Freedom of Speech” issue. Unfortunately, I am no expert on constitutional law (or any law for that matter), but anyone I know who has taken a class on the subject has assured me that it’s a very long, tedious, and boring subject. But once again, please allow me to assure you that a person shouting “fire” in a crowded theater and then getting fined for it has not had his constitutional rights violated–not any more than a person who committed manslaughter using a gun has had his Second Amendment rights violated when he has his gun taken away.
Freedom of Religion aside, it is not wrong for a person to be made uncomfortable by anothers’ belief(s). Now I happen to be a huge opponent of Islamaphobia (having plenty of Islamic friends), but I’m not going to lie and say there are no such thing as fundamentalists with subversive views. I’ve had my share of encounters with my share (and yes, here in New York City)! I refuse to judge the entire Islamic religion by them any more than I’ll judge all Jews by Hareidim, any more than I’ll judge Christians by those annoying Jehovah’s Witnesses who go door to door and won’t leave you alone!
But I digress. Nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable with another’s beliefs. When I see those racist Black Hebrews around Times Square who claim to be the real Tribe of Judah and that all white people are evil, I get very incensed. Nothing can be done about them so long as they don’t get violent or incite violence (if I’m not mistaken), but I shudder when I walk by them! And trust me, if I found that the Cordoba Center was actually a gathering place for these guys (and not Sufis), I’d be protesting it tooth-and-nail.
So I don’t get why this mosque of tolerance should be built remotely near the 9/11 site. I don’t think Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait or any of the muslim countries out there have a single mosque that promotes interfaith tolerance. The last place that needs interfaith education is the Western World.
All that money donated to support and fund this mosque should be spent building and funding interfaith organizations in those bigoted islamic countries. Can anyone really argue that those countries have plenty of interfaith tolerance?
Amen. That was the lamest excuse I ever heard.
I can just see those Imams orgasming with laughter at the idiot Americans while funneling money out to the Peace and Love, Send Poor Children to School, Terrorist Foundation 501(c).
I don’t understand arguments like this “I don’t think Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait or any of the muslim countries out there have a single mosque that promotes interfaith tolerance.”
Are you saying that America should be held to the same standards as these countries when it comes to religious freedom and tolerance? Cause that’s a pretty low bar to set. The whole point is that we are better than them, because we do allow things like this, while they don’t.
There is a memorial to Baruch Goldstein? How utterly obnoxious….
In Kiryat Arba – so it’s not actually in Chevron – but yes it’s pretty obnoxious.
There used to be a huge one at the big junction in Qir’yat Arba, but that one was taken down as it was a huge gathering point for whackjobs. One of my Rabbis in Yeshiva (who got his semicha from Shlomo Carlebach and lives down the block from Ma’arat Ha’machpelah) got himself on the front page of the news for leading the Ma’ariv minyan/protest against the dismantling of this shrine. And this Rabbi is one of those who sincerely believes be’emunah sheleimah that Goldstein is a tzadik. I still recall this time we were with him in Ulam Yitzchak (the part of Ma’arat Ha’machpelah that is closed to the Jews most of the year), and he was showing us “the holiest Sefer Torah ever made”, dedicated in memory of R’ Meir Kahane by Baruch Goldstein. Oh, he spent a long time fawning over this Torah and how holy it is. From what I gather, many of Jewish residents of Hebron/Qir’yat Arba believe that Goldstein was a tzaddik. [shudders]
Reasonable and fair minded New Yorkers CAN strongly object to
THIS “ground zero mosque” for very legitimate reasons.
We reasonable New Yorkers have no objection to Mosques and other
houses of worship in general. In fact, we New Yorkers
are the most tolerant and diverse metropolitan population
on the planet earth, since the begining of time. If you think
that statement is over the top, then consider the following:
1. Ride a subway, every day, look at who we are.
2. Note how, when in our city of 10 million, a RARE “racial
incident” does occur, the local and global press are all over
the story, because it is so rare, despite our diversity.
3. Note how ethnic groups warring elsewhere on the globe get
along just fine, with eachother, every day, here.
4. Take a look at the diverse ethnic (and national) makeup
of the 3,000 9/11 murder victims, the more than 2,600
murdered at the WTC included people from 90 (!) countries.
Don’t anyone dare lecture us New Yorkers, on how we
need to learn to be “tolerant” of others. We wrote the book
on getting along with “others”. Ride the subway, walk around
midtown, go to a supermarket in Queens, or Brooklyn.
We get along. Usually.
Having said all that, why oppose the “ground zero mosque”?
Please pay attention to the answer.
Because, there is good reason to believe that this is NOT
just another mosque. Rather, there is good reason to
expect that this is a grand tribute to the 911 murderers,
disguised as just any old mosque.
The founder and driving force behind the mosque
is not just a wolf, but he is in fact a wolf in sheep’s clothing,
to fool you.
He offers generic platitudes about being “for peace”, but
in fact:
1. blamed America and Americans for 9/11, on 60 minutes in 2001.
2. won’t call Hamas terrorists (but he does condemn “terrorism”!)
3. gives contradictory statements on the source of the funding
4. refuses to reveal the project’s financial benefactors (why?)
There is every reason to believe that this deliberately provocative
“ground zero mosque” will be a center of America bashing, where
America haters will gather to:
Blame America for 911, support Hamas, and feature speakers
and prayers lamenting “terrorism” committed by Americans.
Hence I said that I can see both sides of the story
I’m in the process of reading a book called “Heil Kahane”, which was actually written in ’86, during Kahane’s lifetime (and not long after he got banned from the Knesset). So in discussing his background, it mentions that he was able to get semicha from the Mir, get a JD and then LLM from NYU Law, but never did pass the Bar Exam. The reason attributed to this, the author says, is that in order to get semicha, one has only to be able to argue. But to pass the Bar, one also has to be able to see the other side of the argument–and this always was a deficiency of Kahane’s.
Sad irony is that the Gemara painstakingly does try to examine all sides of the argument. Hypothetically, learning Gemara should prepare one for being a good lawyer. But many of the ones I’ve asked (my father included) unfortunately shrug and say “I wouldn’t know; I didn’t receive a good Talmudic education!” But then again, there is a good amount of Yeshiva graduates who get their BTL and then are able to go straight to Law School and make it there…
“is that in order to get semicha, one has only to be able to argue” semicha has zero to do with arguing.
Okay, let’s try this again. Can you honestly say that you can learn gemara WITHOUT getting into an argument? And the gemara in itself, is it not a polemic form of logic (read: arguments)? I dunno what Yeshiva you’ve been learning in, but in my experience, a good chavruta involves some pretty pretty heavy arguing.
Ergo: I think it is safe to assume that any bona fide rabbi who’s been ordained by a reputable institution–having done his share of gemara learning–knows a thing or two about arguing, don’t you think?
Now the point I was trying to stress to begin with: in its attempt to reach a maskanah, it is my understanding that the gemara tries to consider all the points of view before coming to a conclusion. It is for this reason that the gemara is as long-winded as it is; because of its zeal for understanding all the opinions and how they fare. You know the old saying, ten Jews, fifteen opinions? It probably originated somewhere during the time of the Tana’im.
Of course, if you are trying to suggest that having a strong Talmudic background has little bearing on one’s ability to serve as a rabbi, I’d be happy t0 have that discussion with you as well.
semicha isnt on gemara, its on shulchan aruch. thus in order to get semicha there is zero requirment to be able to argue
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t most fahers involve learning gemara? Most stories I’ve heard about fahers involve there being one part where you demonstrate your ability to learn a sugyah. I would hope that most Orthodox Rabbis out there are at the very least somewhat proficient in the exquisite art of schteiging a blatt.
And if I’m wrong, then at the very least any Yeshiva I’ve ever applied to had an interview process to get in, part of which involved learning a sugya. At its briefest, any given Yeshiva interview I’ve sat through has been at least on line of gemara with a Rashi and a Tosefot. Now I would think that if one was being interviewed for a semicha program, the interview to get into this program would be a bit more intensive than the ones I’ve sat through.
You are wrong while, theoreticly a person can go through shulcha aruch shach taz etc depending on the requirments of the one giving semicha without ever having opened a gemara.
…and what would you make of such a rabbi? Do you seriously think that any frum kehilla out there would take seriously any Rabbi who can’t learn a blatt of gemara?
Side note: I have been told that anyone out there who has semicha can name someone who was in the program who cheated in one capacity or another. I’ve confirmed this with several Rabbis I know who I know will be honest with me. And trust me, if history has proven anything, it’s that it’s possible to cheat your way through anything. So let me extend your contention and add that yes, it is also hypothetically possible for one t0 have semicha and not be fluent in the Yoreh as they should be.
Maybe I am a bit out of touch here, but I have found that frummer kehiloth tend to focus more on the lomdus abilities of their Rabbis. Am I out of line here as well?
No rarely do kehiloth care about the lomdus abilities of their Rabbis. In fact those who pursue semicha are usually not as good at the lomdus aspect and are better at a broader more superficial understranding the type that leads to a proficiency in final psak.
The real Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf :
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/ground-zero-imam-i-dont-believe-in-religious-dialogue/?singlepage=true
This article is written by Walid Shoebat a former Palestinian terrorist who lectures widely on the nature of Islamic terrorism.
The Other Shim, thanks for posting that. I support the mosque, but I am definitely going to read it. I am still open-minded and willing to weigh both sides. :^)
That’s why I like you so much. You really care about what’s right and true and have such a good heart.
and you are a ridiculous ignorant bigot, which 1 of you is muslim?
Last night I went out to dinner. One of the people we were out with made some truly vile anti-semitic remarks. :^( Honestly, I could not believe what I was hearing from his mouth. He hastened to remark that he hadn’t meant anything racist by comparing Jews to insects. :^(
Next, I got home to find an Orthodox Christian posting on Facebook that she didn’t think ~any~ mosques should be allowed in the United States — not anywhere, not ever. She primly added that no offense was meant to any Muslims who “might be around.” These two incidents disturbed me so badly that I had insomnia.
I woke up at 1 a.m. and posted something back for the “no mosques anywhere ever” woman, telling her that what she’d posted had really gotten to me … that I had awoken just minutes ago with what she’d said running through my mind.
When I awoke this morning, there was a response from a ~different~ sort of Christian saying “Well, actually, the Muslims are the least of our worries, considering the Antichrist is sitting on St. Peter’s Throne et cetera.” He went on to complain about Catholics in very nasty terms.
I woke up this morning feeling incredibly sad and hopeless. In all honesty, I’m still feeling so sad this afternoon about all of it. There are tears in my eyes while I’m typing this, but of course I can’t cry ’cause I’m at work. :^(
If I may begin with a confession, I went through a bit of a “Kahane Chai” period when I was in my early 20s. I wasn’t active amongst them, but in principal I used to agree with many of his racist views.
If I have to make a list of conversations I’ve had that changed my life forever, somewhere in the top 5 would be the day I had lunch with a Bengali classmate named Sharrif. Now I’ve had casual conversations with Muslims plenty of times before that (especially in hookah bars), but this was the first time I ever sat down and had a lengthy conversation with a Muslim. I told him about Judaism, he told me about Islam. By the time the conversation was done, I understood why the RaMBaM said that if one has a choice between Islam and Christianity, one should pick Islam.
In fact, subsequent conversations I’ve had with Muslims have only strengthened this belief of mine. Any time I ask a Muslim what it means to be a Muslim, the answer resounds of what my answer to “what does being Jewish mean to you” was when I was frum. I’ve since had roommates from Saudi Arabia and Libya and hung out with my share of their friends (from various Islamic countries). I have found that many of them don’t hate Jews at all; they actually have a great deal of respect for al-Yahud. But they will admit to me that it’s safe for them to think that in America, where there are plenty of Jews, but that back in the old country, it was a bit harder as they never did meet a Jew till they came to America.
Thus, I’ve told my share of Jewish friends to not bash Muslims until they actually have a real convo with a Muslim and understand that there is a lot of beauty in their culture. If I could reach out to your posters on the sites you were visiting, I’d say the same to them. Now I’m no fan of Pope Benedict, but I would cringe when some would call him (and the Catholic faith as a whole) the anti-Christ. I do have my share of qualms with Catholicism, but don’t dare to delegitimize it as a whole.
Sof Davar: World peace will come when people stop thinking that their God is better than everyone else’s God.
Thanks for those comments, ghottistyx.
afterthought:
One time, I was at the Comedy Cellar with the Saudi room mate and his ESL school. Before the show begins, the MC gets the crowd going by asking where everyone’s from. He starts with the 5 Boros, then goes to NJ, Connecticut, etc. Then he starts asking people who aren’t from any of the above where they’re from. So being that I was with an ESL school, we had some interesting ones there.
So I’m sitting across the table from 2 Saudis (both named Ahmed), and there were 3 Saudi girls right down the table from me, Hijab and all. So the MC got to the Ahmeds and asked them where they were from; Ahmed got cold feet. So I chimed in for him “Saudi Arabia”. The MC’s reaction was “oh no, watch out for these guys, everyone keep your eyes on them. If anyone here sees them dropping any briefcases here, EVERYONE RUN! Don’t even look back!”
When that was done, he continued on. One of the questions he asked was “any Jews here?” Naturally, I started cheering. The MC stopped for a second, seeing that the Ahmeds and I were clearly part of the same party (and even seated across from each other). He asked “wait a minute, a Jew and a Saudi sitting together in a comedy club?” We smiled. “And you guys are cool with that?” We nodded. “Wow! I guess world peace is possible after all!”
:^D That’s really awesome. I myself woke up in much better spirits about the state of the world today …. My Mom just retired at 62 from teaching English as a Second Language in different capacities since she was 19 years old. :^)
Don’t cry Mahla. There is so much hatred and sadness in this world. I get down about it too. Not just in world politics. But even among familes and neighbors. Just knowing there are people like you out there makes me have hope though. Just thought you should know.
I am sure that the owners of the land have the right and very surprised that opponents of the construction do appeal their right. The fact that supporters of construction reduce the conversation only to formal legal side obviously is correct on their part. The fact that the opponents agree to discuss the problem using such a position is strange. Are the “opponents” in reality supporters? After all, there is a right to buy land. Why for the Muslim Center in lower Manhattan to be an exception.
The owner of the land can build on his lot whatever he wants. Never the less, for example, an application to build a huge poster calling the destruction of skyscrapers in Manhattan, along with those who are in them at the time of attack, may be rejected. However, if the poster would appeal to the organization of celebrations about such acts, then the ban would be very problematic. Why is it possible? There is an amendment to the U.S. Constitution on freedom of speech. Remember that construction under discussion is not the mentioned poster; it is supposed to build a (so-called) religious – cultural center.
However … the religion itself and the culture itself performed the disaster on the Word Trade Center. It continues, and …
This is the center of the religion itself and the culture itself, which called, and calls for the organization of such acts with the greatest possible number of innocent victims.
This is the center of the religion itself and the culture itself, which organized and continue to organize the celebration of the glory for the killers and expresses joy at the killing of innocent people. It promises those murders Eden and financial support to their families.
This is the center of the religion itself and the very culture and ideology that still did not condemned these murders, it even encourages them. Their congregation prays several times a day. Why the leaders do not introduce a special prayer, imploring Allah to send to Hell:
a) All the perpetrators of such bloody atrocities.
b) All who contribute to these atrocities by agitation, training, financing and so on.
c) All who does not compensate bloody atrocities carried out by their co-religionists.
d) Everyone who does not put on their houses and businesses in large print such appeals.
e) Ones who communicate with supporters of the bloody crimes at home or business. All those, who are not boycotting them by all possible means.
I am confident that after a while it will be difficult to find anyone who would oppose the construction of any center of such a religion in any place. Moreover, while on the words “We want peace!” (As communists), but in fact everyone knows that the authors of the slogan lie, that they are behind the criminal brutality. Stop repeat after Lenin, “We need only such a theory that justifies our actions.”
Yet unheard opinions of representatives of the religion and culture about the above, should not be build new centers, the task is to think what to do with the already existing ones.
I wonder what proportion of the money donated by donors on the organization of bloody attacks marked a controversial center. How much they paid to the families of the WTC fire victims, to the families of suicide bombers they are paying. How much they donated to rebuild the World Trade Center.
Right exists, and morality exists too! That is why all honest people must do all from a) to e), and from e) to a).
Do not forget that Margaret Thatcher asked why leader of that religion and culture are silent. Do not forget what the reaction was.
Who would calculate the cost we pay for …?
Thanks to the terrorists, one must came to the airport more than an hour earlier. I do not intend to discuss which culture or which religion publicly supports this. I introduce a small part of the harm.
There are more than 4 billion air passengers a year. Who must pay every one of them for this lost hour? Those billions is a drop in the ocean.
I am looking forward, that someone create a site in which would be summarized all the losses direct and indirect of the situation created by the supporters who do not condemning this new order.
geez why cant they build like a hospital or battered womens center or a school for needy kids or SomeThing that will benefit people if tehres a mosque or whatever liek a block away obviously its not needed in THAT location heck just seems dangerous and idiotic 2 me