Logic, that’s what it is. Rabbi Avi Weiss explains the logic behind his ordination of women to be halachic authorities and leaders. In this post I’m going to expose the flaws in his argument and prove to you why you should never even consider anything Rabbi Avi Weiss says or does, not even for a moment.
Rabbi Weiss’s argument is two-fold. First he claims the halachic system is not stagnant. That Takanot were enacted by the Rabbis to accommodate for the reality of the times. For example, even though the Torah allows for polygamy, slavery, and yefat to’ar, Chazal saw it as an inconsistency with the our sense of dignity and have effectively done away with these practices. Does he think it is logical to suggest we should follow Chazal as a role model? I don’t. If anything he proves why frummies should be allowed to have multiple wives, or at least fool around on the side. And who is he to compare what he’s doing to the gedolim of yesteryear? Doesn’t he know that dead gedolim are the best leaders and that no living gadol could reach the toenail of a dead gadol. When it comes to making halachic decisions based on the needs of the current situation, we only listen to the dead gedolim’s advice. They know better.
His second argument is that Chazal recognize that our smicha is not the traditional Siniatic ordination. Therefore the arguments for or against his ordination of women are merely sociological, not halachic. This is the most outrageous use of logic I have ever heard in my life. Doesn’t he realize that all of frumkeit had already eroded into a sociological form of the prisoner’s dilemma where we spend our time, money, and energy keeping up with the Joneses in religious upsmanship? There is nothing as important to us than making sure that we stay on “the list” (of families that the rabbi of the shul says it’s OK to eat from our kitchen). What does he think religion is all about? God? What God? I’ve never seen God! But I sure know what it’s like to get a tzitzis check and to have the Rabbi send over fake guests to check out my fridge and see if I’m packing any of that I’m sure it must be treif tablet-K lox or some non cholov yisroel almond milk, ChvSh. Who ever thought it wasn’t about sociology?
Probably the best argument I’ve seen that proves Rabbi Avi Weiss totally wrong was by one of the blog commentators who said “All of Avi’s points sound like the arguments the Conservative movement was making 100 years ago.” Shlugged up! See, if your arguments sound like the Conservative moment’s arguments, then you must be part of the Conservative movement. I’d take this proof even further. It seems to me that all of Avi’s points (see how I stripped him of his smicha) sound like the arguments the Protestants made 600 years ago. I think Avi is really a Protestant. Or maybe, his arguments sound like those of the Nizari Ismailis, and he’s Shi’a Muslim too. In fact, his arguments sound like anyone who is arguing for logical change in order to maintain a sense of relevancy. And this means that as long as we can find one failed attempt at that pursuit, we should conclude that 1. he’s going to fail. 2. he’s just like them. and 3. he probably being dishonest about something too. Relevancy is the last thing we need in a religion. We need conformity to traditional irrelevancy, since that will preserve us in the stagnation we desperately need.
All this brings us to the real reason he’s wrong. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He makes the argument that women have the intellectual capacity to be intelligent, the spiritual inclination to be pious, and the character traits to be teachers, leaders, and role models. How could he possibly make that argument? Has he ever met an intelligent, pious, charismatic woman? Have you? Of course not. Frum society does not create such deformities of nature. Rabbi Weiss must believe in unicorns too.
And if he ever does meet such an intelligent, pious, and charismatic women, or worse, should his yeshiva produce such disgraceful beings, he argues that we should declare them to be the leaders they truly are. And I think this is terribly thoughtless. If he did that he’d ruin any chance for that woman’s sister to ever get a decent shidduch. Weiss has no compassion, no feeling for the underdog.
And what does he know about leadership anyways? Look at his character. You would think that a nice Rabbi would sit and learn, while his wife works in a fabric store supporting him. But no, not this guy. He’s out there doing all sorts of things that take him away from learning. He protested in support of Soviet Jewry. What bittul torah, those Russians are not even frum. He protested against foreign and domestic government leaders and organizations in support of Israel. But does he do Daf Yomi? I don’t think so. He created organizations to help special needs kids and poor people in the Bronx. But have you seen the mechitza in his shul? it’s not that high. Sure he built a shul and two yeshivas, wrote books and articles about Torah and leadership, but that just means he’s a decent administrator. But a leader or visionary? Someone with any sincerity? I don’t think you can trust a rabbi like this to understand leadership or community service. Bottom line: I know he’s wrong because I read it in Matzav. And now you know that he’s wrong since you heard it from me.
Learn more about shlugging up at 4Torah.com
Excellent post 🙂
Good points. He also must be wrong because he has an agenda.
Shkoyach, Telz. You’ve truly outdone yourself!
At first I thought you were serious and then the satire got thick. Then I thought half of your work was satire, but then I read over the first half again and I realized that was satire too. I’m so confused. 🙁
The best compliment. Thank you.
So what do you think about the idea of giving a title to some of these unicorns?
The head of my congregation giraffe, Rabbi Gamal Nemeri. Maybe you’ve heard of him? He’s a big gadol. He really sticks his neck out there for the gentiles and seculars. He even wrote a universally accepted sefer on kashrut. In it, he talks about the mystical reasons why eating the leaves on the top of the tree is a big mitzvah.
Excuse me, but Chana Henkin is one shtick ‘kvetch’ against the Torah. Read ‘Chana Henkin needs a lolly’
this is why we’re still in golus (exile)
Remind me how we are suppose to get out of exile.
Since there is NO archeological evidence of the Exodus, maybe we are not in Exile.
Are you referring to the exodus from egypt, lol. What has it got to do with the current exile?
Because the current exile is irrelevant if we did not have an Exodus from Egypt. We have Israel back so end of fasting etc. If we think we have a spiritual destiny with no archeological proof then we have reasons to fast and pray…otherwise pass the lobster.
Slavery in Egypt≠Exile in Babylon≠Post-Roman Diaspora
lurn2historee d00d
I just want to say that I’m one of the few Orthodox female rabbis that are actually legitimate. I got smicha from Ner Yisrael, when I was a man, and then I had gender-reassignment surgery. Since I was born as a frum man, I am intelligent, pious, and a natural leader. Then I became a women. So my smicha is real — 100% kosher. Those women who Wiess is ordaining can’t compare to my smicha. If a woman wants to be a real rabbi, she should make sure to be born as a man and follow the process I did. It’s the only halachicly valid way to do it.
Maybe we should ask bucherim in smicha programs if any of them want to volunteer to become women after they get smicha. I get lonely knowing that I’m the only real female orthodox rabbi in the world, and would love to have others in my chevra. Do you know any recent musmachim I can talk to about this?
What side of the mechitza do you sit? When you sing do you need to wear ear plugs in case you become aroused from your female voice? Do you say shelo asani isha in the morning?
Honey, I’d sit next to you every chance I get. But no, I’m on the women’s side these days. My voice is too deep for ear plugs to be needed. And I say “She’asani Kirtzoni”
lol, nice one.
But really you ought to say “shelo asani krtzoni”
Or perhaps “sheasiti krtzoni”
Translations, please!!
Translations, please!!
You didn’t make me according to my will. Or I made me according to my will.
You are not alone! I dated a Jewish woman who had been a man… she didn’t tell me until our 3rd date. She had gotten Orthodox semicha through an online study program that she registered for using her (then) male legal name.
Then she got, uh, second circumcision, after which I met her. I thought her lovely hair was a sheitel. No, it was just a wig to cover her male-pattern baldness.
I liked her, and she would never be a niddah(sex any time!), but I broke off the relationship because she lied about her age in her Jdate profile.
Rob,
You are alive. You never called me back, I emailed you, I texted you, I called you. I miss you so much. So what if I lied on jdate. Everyone lies on jdate — at least I didn’t pretend I wasn’t married, like most of the men on jdate.
Do you want to try that thing we did the the tfilin straps again?
First paragraph freaked me out.
I mean first paragraph @Rabbi Talli Bahn .
“What bittul torah, those Russians are not even frum”.
Uh, they are not even Jewish. They all have Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers. So says Israeli rabbinate.
why is there still an argument against women in 2013?. in the eyes of hashem men and women are equal. are religious men so afraid of women that they have to ban them from religious opportunities in order to be away from them. they think it is a mens world and women are 2nd to them or less responsible
if that is the case they should have separate orthodox men and womens shuls one shul will be for women only with the female rabbi. the other shul down the street will be for men only.
problem solved
Works for me… that means no more kiddush nazis! All kiddush nazis are women.
lol
That’s how it worked in some orthodox communities in the middle ages.
If men and women are so equal then I should be allowed to learn hilchos niddah and be a mikvah man subbing for the mikvah lady at Avi Weiss’ super secret mikvah for single hot chanie UWS tefillin daters.
i dont question the need to determine where rabbi weiss & YCT stand in the spectrum of halacha (notably missing from the piece above are cogent, reasonable HALACHICK arguments) I do question the hysterical outbursts regarding him and his institutions.
I actually think he’s wrong. He thinks that halacha is a logical construct, and so it matters to be right. It’s actually a sociological construct, so it matters to fit in.
You have the Protestants and the Catholics reversed (at least as far as the arguments went 500 years ago). The Catholics said that tradition, and even the deposit of revelation iself could be added to and changed. The Protestants said it couldn’t.
But here’s the big plus the Catholics have that the Jews and the Protestants don’t — a single, central, infallible source of authority. So the Catholics, for example, make a novel addition to a teaching about Mary. You’re a Protestant-type. You think it elevates Mary to semi-divine status. You start screaming that it’s nowhere to be found in the Bible or the first four councils of the undivided church. You break away and start your own church. (Which then gets into an argument about something else and breaks into two, which then breaks into four, etc. etc. for the rest of time).
On the other hand, let’s say you’re a Catholic in the same situation. By definition (catholic=universal) you hold that there can be only one Church and one teaching authority which is valid in all places and at all times. Maybe you don’t buy the new Mary thing logically, but you accept it.
Thus, the Catholic Church can move left, right, up, down, or center at will and it always (pretty much) stays together. The Jews and the Protestants can’t move at all, except to break apart.
Yea but you still believe in Jesus being the on of G-d so you are the most foolish of all.
I think its the Catholics who are breaking apart. Your pope god quit this year remember? You are in no position to talk about your idol worshipping
You expect me to understand this? Of course you are right. Remember, I’m the one who thinks Weiss is wrong since he’s logical. I love the Catholics, they have the exact kind of illogical thinking that makes the religion appealing to nearly 2 billion people. They got it right.
As for my coreligionists here who think attacking your silly beliefs is a worthy endeavor, I invite them to this week’s Torah portion, where we are expected to believe in a talking jackass, and I’m not referring to bloggers. We all believe our own pee smells like rosewater, and everyone else’s religion is a joke. Proof that we are all talking jackasses.
Don’t assume that they are your co-religionists. Don’t assume anything. As they say, “on the internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”
There is a certain lack of reading comprehension which is apparent, however, inasmuch as my comments pertained to centralized authority and the freedom that it gives an organization (any organization) to change in an orderly fashion without being torn about by centripedal force. It is hard to relate this to a discussion of a “pope god” and “idol worshipping” but I understand that when you have a hammer, everything looks like an idol. BTW, some of the early Protestants (the “iconoclasts”) were seriously into statue-smashing and destroyed numerous priceless works of art in much the way that the modern Taliban did in Afghanistan. Great minds think alike.
Or like Avraham for that matter.
Good like Abraham fool.
agreed, and Catholics believe in that shite too
A tempest in a potty. What a waste of time reading this drivel.
Better than the bukarians who many are not even halakaly jewish they are Just cult for enjoying bukarians culture mixed with Judaism little They don’t care for god or people like Indian and palistinian they all crooks with no emotions or brains they wasting money on fancy car big house and going gehenum for stolen money. No brains!!!!!
Thank you for your helpful comment about my blog post. I see that you use the very kind of logic that I was appealing to. I have to assume you are frum and you agree with me that Rabbi Weiss must be wrong about everything he says. You make me proud to be a frum jew. Who else can we badmouth in our insatiable desire to feel superior?
I know the answer to this question. I like to bash chabad when feeling a little insecure, a few easy cheap shots can really help to make me feel good about myself again.
Women of the Wall is also a good goto but a little too easy to be worthwhile. Then there is chassidus in general, crazy yerushalmim that burn things, people who wear kippa srugot, full time learners, full time workers, women, christians and other idol worshippers, arabs, western society in general, and people who are bitul torah reading drivel like frum satire.
so drop the clown act and take off your wig
haha
telz angel who are you talkun to?
av weiss is ashkinaz stupid
Didn’t Devorah serve on the Sanhedrin? Wait that CAN’T be possible -either there was a nes and she morphed into the form of a man to make it possible -or she never really was a woman, maybe from this we can learn out she was really a MAN trapped in a woman’s body for this to be possible……..um, oh oh….
It is completely ignorant to bash on those who are against Avi Weiss’ views, when he is the one who showed no regard for Orthodoxy and plowed ahead with his liberal agenda. If you agree with Conservative views, then be a Conservative Rabbi, simple as that. I personally know one of the Maharats, who proved very difficult to reach and slow to respond anytime I had a question (about once a month). She spends more energy on puffing up her chest and demanding a leadership position than actually providing any leadership. It seems the less frum the Rabbi, the less he is willing to do actual work behind the scenes and the more he makes a crown of the Torah in public. So it does not surprise me at all that Weiss and his replacement at the “yeshiva” have created such a legacy for women to follow. I’ll stick to the Rabbis and their wives who no one has heard of and who prefer it that way–they actually pick up their phones and answer questions.
This is the logic I was talking about. If someone wants to say that R’ Weiss selected the wrong women, that’s a great argument to make. Maybe he did, so make the case. But that means that giving smicha to a woman is not a problem per se, it’s just that the Maharat you happen to know is disappointing. I buy that argument. The male rabbi of my shul disappoints me too. That does not mean that men are ill qualified, it just means that I didn’t win the rabbi lotto either.
I don’t buy the argument that Weiss must be a Conservative rabbi in disguise just because he hold a view that loosely resembles a view they hold in one matter. That’s just illogical and factually incorrect. It shows a general misunderstanding of both the Conservative movement and of Weiss. Since you are a frum woman, I can’t expect you to understand these subtle matters of theology, after all, you’d say that your gender is deficient in this matter. That they only go after the glory of the leadership title, but don’t possess the true inner understanding of Torah. As opposed to men, of course.
I think the real issue is that Rabbis are afraid of tarnishing their “brand.” They’ve spent a lot to create the facade that the title means something and they don’t want to admit that many purchased the title online via Pirchei Shoshanim, where you can get smicha in 16 months without actually knowing Hebrew. Or you can just join a community kollel and call yourself “Rabbi” without getting smicha at all. The sad joke here is not that people are discounting Weiss for wanting to give smicha to women, is that that people think smicha these days means something in the first place. In my book, an ehrlich yid is an ehrlich yid — smicha or no smicha, male or female.
Ah, but therein lies the rub, Telz. Because any woman who demands the “right” to be in a position of leadership will be the wrong person for the job. I personally feel that we went astray when we allowed men to make a living off of being a Rabbi–it has resulted in many men choosing smicha for the wrong reasons (being overconfident in their leadership skills) and making a Crown of the Torah, and now women want a piece, too. Any person who thinks that outward recognition and honor matter more than the accomplishment of ensuring Jewish continuity does not possess a true understanding of Torah. Weiss and his ilk claim to be Jewish leaders, yet they are causing a rift in the Jewish world. The irony speaks for itself. True Judaism has survived the Sadducees, the Karaites, and the Reform movement. It will survive Avi Weiss, too.
I’m not sure if your comment about my lack of understanding of theology was a dig, or if you genuinely believe that I feel that way. Let me follow the ways of the Torah and give you the benefit of the doubt, but also correct you. I understand Jewish theology very well, with binah you do not possess. The Sages consulted with their wives on halachic matters for this very reason. There is one very vital difference between Conservative Judaism and Orthdoox Judaism: The former looks at changes in the secular world and asks, “How can I adjust Judaism to fit?” It sees women equating empowerment with emulating men in the secular world and thus think that female Rabbis are progress within Judaism. Avi Weiss is following this approach, regardless of what he calls himself. Orthodox Judaism looks at changes in the secular world and asks, “What does Judaism say about this, and how can we preserve the law by living in the world but not being of it?” History has seen empires rise and fall, and the inexplicable (to outsiders) continuity of Jews. Not only that, but our tiny people has had a disproportionate influence on Western civilization. We are meant to be leaders, not followers. The Jews who chose to follow non-Jews were eventually absorbed by them; we are here today thanks to the ones brave enough to refuse to. Scorn and accusations are nothing new to observant Jews. With all of that in mind, I dismiss Avi Weiss and his Maharats as just another ill-attempt to make Judaism into something it is not.
Brilliant reply. Thank you. Seriously.
“She spends more energy on puffing up her chest….”
Do you mean that literally?
Just goes to prove that when a man thinks about a woman all he thinks about are booobies. Now I know why women can’t be leaders of any kind. Good thing there are no women in leadership roles at corporations or in the government. Can you imagine the day you’d see a woman judge, police chief, mayor, or CEO? Highly improbable that it could ever happen since men would only think about booobies. Maybe though, that’s only in the Frum world.
Avi Weiss is wrong because:
1. It is a break from tradition.
2. I doubt if Avi Weiss could not pass the smicha exam, let alone his ordained
“rabbis”.
3. I doubt if any truly or orthodox congregation would want a female rabbi.
1. Actually, today’s smicha is a break in the old tradition. Making takanot is the halachic process in which we deliberately break from tradition for the benefit of preserving the Torah. (et la’asot l’Hashem, heyfaru Torahtecha). Breaking tradition is an acceptable halachic process. Not breaking it once in a while creates a problem.
2. Agreed. I see you learned English at Telz, I can’t speak the language either.
3. Agreed. This is not about getting jobs. Shuls will hire the Rabbis they hire — and Orthodox shuls will hire men. No doubt. But most Rabbis are not congregational leaders. Most people who float the title do so in order to get a better salary in chinuch or get a break on taxes. Many have no more than a borsolino hat and dipping thumb. But imagine if women had a way to declare a sense of accomplishment in learning torah so that they get recognition for what they learned, and they can (if qualified) help other learn and follow halacha. This is a threat?
Do you think Rabbi Weiss qualifies to be a Posek and has the trust of the orthodox world to break old traditions?
Rabbi Feinstein had the knowledge and support of the orthodox community and instituted many innovations. Do you think that Rabbi Weiss fulfills this position today?
Dead gedolim always know what is better for today. Reb Moshe said so in a tweet just last week.
Since when does Weiss ask the orthodox world to trust him? I don’t think he cares what the “orthodox world” thinks. He only seems to care about charting a healthy future for people who care about his understanding of Torah based on a halachic understanding of what needs to be established today. That’s why he chose to create a yeshiva for men and a another one for women; to create a new stock of leaders based on his vision of what is needed. He doesn’t feel the need to get your approval. He’s not trying to be popular. He’s never played that card. Don’t you see, he’s the radical transformer, not the conformer.
I’m making fun of the fact that those people who are criticizing him for being a non-conformer are just not thinking about this clearly. He’s proud to be a non-conformer! The critique has to be much more thought out, and apparently the frum velt has nearly no one sophisticated enough to understand how to address him with anything other than the logic of a 6th grader, with ad hominem attacks. It’s sad, but given the frum education system we have provided for ourselves — it’s to be expected.
Sounds more and more like another renegade called Jesus.
Avi sounds more and more like a previous innovator called Jesus.
R. Weiss has done much good for the Jewish people, but he’s also his own worst enemy and the biggest underminer of his own efforts. His love for the spotlight disproves the adage that “any PR is good PR”. He pushes the limit for the sake of pushing the limit, not because a unique shaila deserves a heter in a teshuva
There’s nothing as effective to disprove reason, logic, and fact than a good ad hominen attack. This way we can disregard anything he says, good or bad, right or wrong, and cleanly sweep him into the category of people we can ignore.
If only the amoraim of the gemara behaved like the frummies of today, those books would be a fraction of the size and I’d be able to finish Shas in two and a half years, since we’d just make up stuff about the opinions we don’t like at first glance.
Poster above is a fool. Every single woman ordained has a job – and Avi Weiss is a torah giant. You are a fool. Join the Taliban.
Your crude response reflects your level of intelligence. I will not respond again to your comments.
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