As much as we kiruv industry professionals like to think we have prepared the baal teshuva for the real (frum) world we really haven’t. So while the girls know how to to dress according to tznius social norms, the guys know how to wear their yarmulkes and everyone seems to be pronouncing their suf’s and tuf’s as if they grew up modern orthodox, they really don’t have a clue and while there are many instances where the Baal Teshuva (and converts too) may need help, several of you have expressed distress while joining the complicated world of frum dating – otherwise known as the shidduch crisis.
The average baal teshuva entering the shidduh market is already behind, they are usually older, better looking, better educated, have no yichus (royal lineage) and if they are a girl – their parents are much less likely to support their husband in the lowest paying doctorate program on earth (Kollel) This is without even talking about the social disadvantages, many people don’t want to date or their kids dating Baal Teshuvas. With that said, I would like to give my insight to possibly help the BT navigate the complex world of shidduch dating.
Why won’t FFB’s date me? As the frum community becomes more open (mostly due to the internet forcing some people to look at their stupidity) more and more people who grew up orthodox are dating out of their rigid caste. You may not hear of many yeshiva guys marrying BT’s, but I can tell you that more and more parents are considering it an option for their older single girls. As the shidduch crisis tightens its grip on the supply of eligible singles, many people are looking to those newly minted BT’s as options – but still dating BT’s is a sore subject for many people.
FFB’s are an elitist class of people who secretly think that anyone who became frum is nuts, but instead they say things like “I’m not sure about dating someone who was not all there, that they needed to search for something and make such a drastic change” I’ve heard this statement and multiple ones like it dozens of times from FFB’s young and old. Many FFB’s are secretly afraid that BT’s have are more likely to go off the derech, turn out to have mental issues or become stark charedi overnight. Basically FFB’s think BT’s are nuts, but instead of saying it, they say things like “I’m not into dating BT’s because we are from different backgrounds” or because they were expecting a shver and shvigger – not just regular old inlaws.
Complimenting girls/guys is untznius: The Jewish Press used to have this really dumb shidduch article where a reader writes in and an anonymous male and female would each chime in about their feelings on the subject. The article is kind of stupid because you never knew the respondents hashkafic levels and their responses were way too mature. Anyway, there was this whole issue for what seemed like many weeks long about whether or not it was unztnius to compliment a girl on a date and of course the blogs at the time ate it up. In the frum community, it is generally frowned upon to compliment a girl in any way (because this means you cannot be kovesh your yetzer and may come to waste seed at some point in the near future) There are many forums about when the appropriate time is to compliment your date (I have heard you should wait until you are engaged or at least the 4th date)
BT’s will probably find this insane, then again, they went from bacon cheeseburgers, wild orgies and 3 day weekends to orthodoxy – so they may actually see the point in never expressing any true interest while dating.
Do you want to go out again: The beauty of the shidduch world is that men never actually have to be men, instead of gritting their teeth and asking the girl on her stoop whether she wants to go out again (or invite you up-just make sure you brought your tefillin) you just say goodnight and the second you hop in your car the shadchan calls you and says “nu, what do you think?” and of course no matter what you say – you will always have to go out on a second date. Traditionally, many frummies will go out a bunch of times before they decide to go secular and actually ask each other out or talk on the phone without pre-prescribed shadchan calls.
Kind of like when your friend says to ask out some girl in 7th grade because she likes you, the shadchan acts as your go between in the beginning and many people use this as a crutch to save themselves from actually dating or putting any emotion into it.
You can’t just ask her/him out: As strange as it may seem, merely going up to some cute girl you davened next to at the post davening meat market at Mt Sinai (in the heights) is not really the thing to do. You have to find someone who knows the girl and then she has to facebook stalk you, my friend told me that even on the Upper West Side he was considered pimpin’ by the ladies who expressed glee at being asked out in shul – so even there it is not so accepted to ask someone out. For instance, if you attend a shabbos meal and play footsie the entire time with the gal sitting across from you, it would still be strange to go up to her and ask her out – you could of course go on a shabbos walk, but the men of NY are said to have small balls in the asking out department and in turn the ladies have responded by forcing you to through one of your mutual friends and have some sort of awkward phone call that consists solely of loshon horah filled Jewish geography.
Luckily for me I don’t have these problems, the ladies tend to ask me out quite a bit, but in general the frum dating world does not look fondly on assertive women.
What do you mean I’m too educated: I’m sure other cultures have this problem, but within frum culture there are two issues with educated and gainfully employed women (unless you work in some sort of therapy which you can make your own hours) and these are that their priorities are not in the home, “if they are always working how can they have children?” The other silent claim is that frum men are brought up to think they are smarter than women and therefore are turned off by women who make more than them. Luckily for baal teshuvas they cannever be held accountable for their poor previous decisions, like becoming a surgeon or an electrical engineer.
You haven’t been frum long enough: Just like women always cut their number of sexual partners in half, you may want to double the time you’ve been frum. Every time I try to set up BT’s, someone will inevitably ask how long they have been frum for (which I think is a perfectly valid question) and you best be counting a little beyond the actual transition, like that time when you washed and benched with a mezuman for a pulled pork sandwich – you were frum already.
You can never go dutch: I one time went dutch with a gal and the shadchan chewed me out after the date, so that was the last time I went dutch, I just made them pay for everything from now on because the tolls were always so high in NY. Bascially, with shidduch dating whatever makes the girl have to have an opinion is a bad thing. The guy has to do all the work and the girl has to show up and in the end you rarely get laid on shidduch dates – now you wonder why there’s a shidduch crisis?
Girls do not want to be seen on dates: This may need to go at the top of the list, but for some reason girls never want to be seen on a date. If they are seen smiling, someone may ask when the chasunah is, if they are seen texting under the table they may be wondering what number date it is – regardless you cannot take a girl out in their neighborhood and if they see someone they know – rarely will they introduce you because frum people in general are terrible at introductions.
Going out for drinks: Although it has become more acceptable for modern orthodox singles in their 30’s to go out for drinks, real frum folks never go out for drinks, they go to lounges (typically the lobby bars in chain hotels – where drunken middle aged men go to drink their insurance conference blues away) or prior to 9-11 to airports for sodas, but never do they drink alcohol – it’s pricey and many of the girls who haven’t entered the shidduch crisis yet are underage. I do wonder if any shidduch dater has ever slipped some roofies into his/her dates drink?
Things the shadchan doesn’t want to hear from a BT: There are a whole slew of things that will ruin your chances in the shidduch world or just make it really hard for you to ever find your bashert (luckily for you, you probably already had sex – because all BT’s did in their former lifetimes was have sex, eat McDonalds and do drugs)
That you don’t get along with your parents.
That your parents are not supportive of your decision.
That you are unwilling to relocate.
That you are out of the box – shadchans need normal boring people – interesting BT’s are too hard to set up.
That you don’t want children – no BT would really say such a thing, because part of what made them frum undoubtedly goes back to the “beautiful shabbos meal” that they went to at some rabbis house with 10 screaming children.
That you will not date other BT’s or converts – because as I said above FFB’s generally don’t want anything to do with you.
You can’t directly ask someone out even on the Upper West Side???!!! Isn’t that where all the Modern Orthodox singles are???!!!
Interestingly, however, I’ve often fooled people into thinking I am an FFB, even though I am a BT of seven years. Apparently, even though I know nothing about the sociology of the frum, I make up for it with knowledge. And the fact that I am a nerd probably helps: they probably (incorrectly) assume that I don’t know frum sociology simply because I am a nerd who doesn’t know how to interact with people, rather than (correctly) surmising that it’s because I didn’t grow up in a frum community.
Speaking of complimenting a girl’s appearance, the first girl I ever dated, after our first date but before our second, we were talking about the halakhot of tzeniut and whether red is peritzut, and she said (in an SMS), and I quote, “4 some reason i doubt ud notice what anyone was wearing,ever.”
Same, basically Frum for 8 years since I was 16, but really my family was pretty traditional so the change was actually more of a technicality so people usually think I’m FFB. Still Shadchans can’t seem to tell that there’s a big difference between people from traditional backgrounds and someone who didn’t have Judaism growing up. Somehow traditional background translates to “non-observant” in their language, but I really don’t match up so well with those kinds of people.
“FFB’s are an elitist class of people who secretly think that anyone who became frum is nuts”
Heshy, its a chillul hashem to tell the truth.
It’s no secret. I’ve been told I’m nuts by FFBs for going frum. Then again, maybe they just thought I was straight up crazy…
The older FFBs do get desperate enough to date BTs. I almost never get set up with a BT and the modox FFB old maids think I’m exotic because of my worldly experience, even the older Bais Yaacov types too. The won’t be able to control themselves after their first mikvah night with worldly me.
one inaccuracy: shadchans will throw the ffb rejects at the bts. happened to me.
luckily i saw that either:
– the rejects were being rejected because the frum community is nuts (e.g. rejected them because they wanted to get educated, work outside the home, had intelligent views, etc.) – in which case i dated those “rejects”, and didn’t marry one of them because in the end i was meant for whom i married, or
– the rejects were true bad cases, and i was blessed with a wide network of friends who had the fortitude to research deep enough and the courage to tell me the truth – so i did not date any of them.
ftr, i have been frum since before my bar mitzvah.
“everyone seems to be pronouncing their suf’s and tuf’s as if they grew up modern orthodox:”
As a BT, I sought out a teacher to help me with my krias and davening who did NOT follow the modern pronunciation. Everything else about me and my lifestyle and hashkafa is decidedly modern orthodox. Anomaly? Weirdo?
the craziest thing i heave heard is you need a shiduch resume to gove to the families of the girls you wanna date. BS, im not doing that, and if thats the reason I dont get married, so be it. Frum bored ladies living of tax payers money and thier bright ideas
the reason ffbs dont want to marry BTs is because BTs kids all go off the derech
That’s of course ignoring both the fact that all the BTs are from families who were FFB that went off the derech a few generations back as well as that FFBs now have tons of kids who are off the derech, they just do a better job hiding it now.
what about shomer negiah — are there difs? how ?
I’m shomer negiya. I watch what I touch and make sure its worth it
Amen to that, brotha! Or, sista, perhaps.
I don’t think the over-educated female issue is unique to BTs or Orthodox Jews.
On asking out girls in shul, I don’t do it because I don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable in shul. Even though I recognize its a de facto social environment, having seen it happen to girls I know, I’d hate to be the creepy guy at shul making a girl(s) uncomfortable being there.
curse you heshy for being mostly right
The not asking out thing is lame. Some of us are still actually human and want to date the normal way, not through Shidduch dating, which is even lamer. Time to pop the bubble….
I’ve thought about the whole FFB nose turn up at the BT/convert thing many, many times. Since I belong to one of those low-end of the totem pole types, it may surprise some that I think there is (partial) justification for the concerns.
My wife, a convert, initially came across as being a good deal more committed to a lubavitch lifestyle than she actually was. At some point in our relationship, I had to stop with key aspects of lubavitch halachic/minhagic observances, because it was clear to me that she would abandon observance if we adopted a fully chassidic life.
Understandable on her part? Yes. Flaky for her to mislead me regarding the extent of her committment? Absolutely.
I’m not too upset at her, though, because I think I lucked out. She’s a more or less normal gal, even though I wish she was a bit more spiritual, and didn’t hold onto some shiksa perspectives. In our cohort of BT/convert contemporaries, who all got married at the same time, we know some real doozies. Guys who were real chassidish, only to later on sleep with other men, prostitutes, return to drug abuse. Women who were psychotic, but somehow managed to hide this fact from their future husbands, who stupidly (like many of us) who bought into the 5 dates till the proposal pattern of many chareidi types.
So I don’t totally blame the FFBs for their perspectives.
I will admit, however, to still feeling some degree of contempt for them. Because the reality is that some of us are in fact normal, albeit idealistic, people. Not perfect, but well adjusted people, who saw something true and beautiful in Judaism.
You see this condescending vibe coming from (smatterings of people) across the spectrum of the FFB crowd– from OTDs who think they have it all figured out, and at times look disdainfully at BTs/converts, to very frum FFBs who somehow think that the fact that they spent a few more years in yeshivah than you (generally because their parents forced them) makes them better than you.
Don’t even get me started with the girls. FFB Jewish women, a lot of them are great–and would probably make some of the best wives out there, apart from the poor financial sense that has developed over the past couple of generations in the frum world. Even though they are as a group wonderful, they are still a bit too cowardly to ever date out of their social cohort, because above Torah, above serving God, above idealism, a yearning for social security motivates them in much of what they do. Above all, they just want to fit in, and how can you fit in if you marry someone from a secular or non-Jewish household?
While I hear your point Chassidim do things beyond what halacha requires and socially are different as well. The Chassidic life isn’t for everyone and there’s no excuse for the anti-BT/Gair bias some FFBers have.
I see it this way, BTs and Gairim worked hard to become frum and/or Jewish in the first place and we get treated like second class Jews (admittely there’s a range, some of us get off easy and merely have to put up with a few stupid remarks while others get treated like dirt on a daily basis) and it’s easy to feel contempt and sometimes hatred towards FFBers for their elitist attitude. People will say they respect us when asked point blank, but their actions say otherwise and it makes one feel like their sacrifice isn’t appreciated by people who had it easier than us.
It’s like someone who earned a million dollars being mocked by someone born into a rich family, my bias is to regard BTs and Gairim as superior to FFBers in that we sacrificed something to be frum (if not Jewish in the first place) instead of just imitating Abba and Imma. And yet we get told that we’re not “good enough” (aka you don’t have yichus so you’ll always be “inferior”) which makes one wonder why anyone who isn’t already a BT or gair should become one (who’d knowingly sign up to become a second class citizen?).
Incredible how we find ways to make things more complicated.
“The guy has to do all the work and the girl has to show up and in the end you rarely get laid on shidduch dates – now you wonder why there’s a shidduch crisis?”
NAILED IT!!!
“FFB’s are an elitist class of people who secretly think that anyone who became frum is nuts”
Well, don’t you think they are correct?
Based on your site, anyone who remains frum is nuts, much less becomes frum.
It’s all relative man, but generally people become religious for different reasons – all religious people are nuts, because the whole concept of religion is pretty crazy.
Right. (From your perspective.)
So don’t you think BT’s are more nuts?
maybe cause your an asshole, pothead, pretends to be frum in public, and then doesn’t actually keep shabbos while behind closed doors? Perhaps… or maybe your just an asshole with a low iq
When I reach shidduch age, I’ll just lasso guys for each of my friends. This way we can all fit in with our frum husbands, and according to Heshy, they won’t have the balls to refuse anyways 🙂
Making 30,000 a year? what? how can you support a girl on that?
Don’t forget the stigma of a Yeshivish Older Working guy even thinking about moving out on his own before he’s 30. NEVER!
test
In my book, if you write BT on a resume, you may as well write:
“Somewhat socially awkward, and naively idealistic. Hung out with Kiruv rabbi because he would hang out with me.”
I know this is generalizing. I generalize.
So many funny words.
Frumsatire has given me a lot of insight on the Frum Jewish community. Let me give you an account of my curiosity. I met a girl named Tami and we spoke for a few minutes. She was the most attractive woman I have ever set my eyes on. Attraction isn’t everything. She was multilingual and intelligent as well. I had no idea about anything when it comes to the frum community when we met. We met once. The first thing she said to me is: “You’re not Jewish.” I danced around it by reciting a prayer. Then she followed with something along the lines of “You’re not Jewish enough.” Her words were not that harsh. She didn’t have the time to explain that she would be kicked out of her community, her house, and exiled from her family. Once I learned this information I realized why she never called me. I decided to educate myself about the Jewish religion. I learned that all Jews are converts in essence. Elite class? Who is to judge who is Elite? No one is perfect. No amount of money can make a man wealthy when wealth is true happiness from peace of mind, body, and soul. Nor can Elite be determined by how often you show up to Temple. The truth is that people are people. After reading some of the comments I was compelled to reply. I want to say to the man who married the BT that is upset to find that she may not be as devoted to her faith as he would like. Teach her and enjoy the lessons that you give to your wife. Don’t look down upon her because she is ignorant to the ways of the frum lifestyle. You knew when you married her that she wasn’t raised frum. She made the commitment to marry a frum man. It is her job to teach the children the Jewish faith right? So teach her properly so you’re children won’t be looked down upon as their father is looking down upon his wife right now. Support her and aid her in the process of learning. Change is never easy. It takes time. You’ve given yourself to her for the rest of your life. Give her the time she needs to meet your standards. Something else I read that I would like to comment on. Ladies with a good education and a high paying job are feared by men who want them to stay home and have children? Tell them this BT in progress will do the dishes and tend to the children. I can say that, I run my company from home. Not to get off track. When I look at the frum community I see educated, lovely, and devoted people. What is desirable is the education of the Jewish faith. The educated, well paid, multilingual, and absolutely adorable woman in bullet proof stockings is just icing on the cake. I want my future children to have a mother that can teach them everything she knows about her faith. If I am so blessed that alone is priceless. I just hope she doesn’t fault me for eating McDonalds cheeseburgers in my past. If I gave my best is that not enough? If a BT does his or her best to abide by the Jewish laws he is Elite. More than elite because he or she had to work to change. You have to accept that we live in an ever changing world. I’m almost 30 and after reading this article and comments I guess shidduch dating is about 8 years away. I hope I didn’t offend anyone by writing this comment. I know the man who married the BT loves her very much and is just aggravated that she may not work as hard as she used to work at being frum. Open the doors of communication. Accept that all Jews are converts in essence. Instead of kvetching about their attempt to come closer to god. Give them the tools they need to grow. It took me years to find someone that would enlighten me by teaching me a little at a time. All those who have answered my questions have done a great mitzvah on my behalf. To find a door that wasn’t shut because I wasn’t raised Jewish was a good feeling. I just hope the FFB’s aren’t ashamed that the neighborhood may see me at their doorstep. Overall, I really like this site and am glad to have it as a source of information. I’m learning more everyday thanks to sites like this one. Laughing at onions instead of crying over them. Slightly morning the fact that my first shidduch date may not take place for another decade. But, I am enveloped with the desire to learn more about the faith.
Creator of this page, and more than half of you people commenting, you guys are really morons. first off, most of the stuff that the author wrote, is garbage, not true, and misleading. some moron who is barely jewish, and barely believes in the religion/hashem, is telling the baal teshuvas how to shidduch date, and half of you people believe him/agree with him… anyway from the stupid comments most of you are saying/this stupid article, you guys should really think about your lives… right now, you guys are jokes, look at the path your on, open your eyes, and see what kind of life you want to live, and not the life of shidduch dating to try to get some from girls..
you’re an asshole
Thanks for bumping. This was a good post.
Heshy is correct; I’d sooner marry a man than a BT.