I was dating a girl a while back who told me that I chewed with my mouth open, “so what everyone chews with their mouth open” was my response and then to prove my point I observed people closely at restaurants and on shabbos – sure enough 90% of them chewed with their mouths opened. I failed to realize that all of those observed happened to be frum people and that until this girl pointed out this grave table manner passe, I had no idea that it was bad table manners in the first place.
Luckily for me, my poor table manners are a direct result of growing up without a mother in a frum environment, I was raised by men who were stuck in a Boro Park of 1947, where their mothers went to the shochet to pick out which chicken they wanted killed for shabbos – it wasn’t exactly the place for table manners.
I remember meeting someone who absolutely detested soup slurpers and yet another who couldn’t stand loud chewers, I myself couldn’t stand people who actually had stupid ass pet peeves like those and had to tell them so. Eventually I grew up a little and learned when to have manners, first dates are good times for manners, but after the third date you can let them slide a little bit – besides, most frum girls (obviously this does not include BT’s and Gerim) have just as poor table manners as frum guys.
Next time you attend a frum wedding (I’m not talking modern orthodox here folks) go around to the tables during the dancing that takes place between the main meal and desert, you will notice that hardly anyone (men and women) touched their knives or napkin.
I have been at dozens of meals where someone half stood up in their seats to grab something across the table instead of asking – this is a classic frum thing to do. You will notice that some frum men actually thank their hosts for meals and may even help to clean, but this is only single men which need to polish their shidduch grabbing skills, married men stay put and talk words of sports and Torah while the women folk schmooze with the singles about dating and kugel recipes.
You would think that frummies would have good table manners, after all we have a lot of time to practice. Unlike other folks, frummies have formal meals at least twice a week and many frummies have big meals at which to hone their skills, much more often than regular folks – yet they are severely lacking in the table manners department. Frum men shovel food into their gullets without caring if their sleeves ar dipping into their food, the love the lift plate and shovel from the center technique to get as much food in at once, some of them may be mopre polite and use bread crust to assist with this feat – but thou shalt not use a knife chas v’shalom.
this is so true! as a BT i notice this A LOT. also, it is important to add that frum guys frequently find things to play with during conversations (they do this subconsciously, I actually called someone out on it once…)
i.e. having a face to face conversation on a date and “petting” a glass, knife, whatever else is around them
has anyone else noticed this???!
yes. i do it too. its a nervous habit. but i do it because i have a hard time keeping my hands stills (except when i sleep); since i like to work with them (fix things, write safrus…etc).
They’re nervous. After all, how often do they talk to girls much less try to impress them?
Definitely NOT good for the Jews.
Table manners are goyishe.
At the Chabad House I frequent, when yeshiva guys roll through, you can always tell where they were sitting at when we’ve picked up the tables. They seem to very skilled at missing the table with the food that falls out of their mouths.
ouch! so embarassing
I cannot help but think of those who lack manners as being low class. Judaism should be elegant.
How about the good ol’ “fork on bottom – thumb on top” kugel technique?
It works like a charm. It especially comes in handy when the kugel looks like it might come apart.
It’s so Jewish, I find it difficult to imagine how it could have waited 3000 years until forks were invented.
Well, I guess a “Hands only” technique encompasses all fork/finger combos. That’s right, once upon a time EVERYBODY ate with their hands. Silverware is a recent thing. There are still many chassidim who eat with their hands as a principle, so as not to ‘modernize’.
just please wash your hands before shaking someone else’s (by a kiddush)
If you think we’re bad, visit some bedouins 😮
I’ve always had issues with the lack of table manners in the frum worl.d There is just no excuse. My hubby is an ffb and I am a geirus – we bat heads on this point quite frequently. I like using china, glasses, linen napkins, etc. for the shabbos table and he and his friends continually breaks the glasses and wipes their hands on their shirts because they doesn’t understand the concept of a cloth napkin (I’ve recently started setting their places with paper napkins just to avoid the confusion). He is totally down with paper and plastic utensils. And watching him hold a fork and knife is the most horrifying thing ever. I grew up in a very proper home and it’s hilarious when we eat at my parents house!
“There are still many chassidim who eat with their hands as a principle, so as not to ‘modernize’.”
Which is why negel vasser is still relevant for many folks.
The obligation stands regardless of how you eat your food. That was just the original reason for the decree.
chassidim only have a reason to use the minhag of “minhag avosainu biyadainu” when they eat chickpeas at a sholom zachor.
Negel Vasser is for before eating (or for when you wake up). The right wording is “mayim achronim”
How about the principle of not doing things that injure the reputation of Jews and damage the standing of klal yisrael? Eating with fingers, letting food drop out of your mouth while you chew with it open, not knowing how to use silverware, the boarding house reach and so on have an effect. People will remember how readily identifiable yidden act. “Maybe that “dirty Jew” thing is true. They don’t wash. They have manners like a farkin’ pig with both trotters in the trough. Ewww.”
So far, every person I ever met who had that attitude, had it even before they ever saw a Jew without manners.
We have so many Jewish-mandated stringencies as it is, we don’t need more stupid bullsh!t getting in the way.
If you come between a jew and his food, you best watch out your fingers dont get bit.
love.
Off topic, but I can’t seem to access this blog using internet explorer (9, I think). I have to use chrome. Is there a reason for that?
I don’t know anyone w poor table manners….i guess I’m too modern.
do we perhaps confuse frum people with jews from brooklyn?
I resent that ;^). I’m from Brooklyn (born and bred) and eat with a fork+knife. I even tilt the soup bowl away from me when eating it. Haven’t touched the chicken with my fingers, even when its hard to get it away from the bone. Always bring the food to my mouth and not my mouth to the food/plate. I can’t stand people who sneeze/cough without covering their nose/mouth.
Congratulations on being the exception that makes the rule.
The fact that we eat together so often is probably the reason we lack “Table Manners”
In my family you MUST eat chicken with your hands. Why struggle trying to get the meat off the bones with some newfangled device? I mean, how can you eat cholet with dignity? Impracticality with no basis is a pain, and table manners were invented by women, need I say more?
You guys are only talking abt males right? bc i think females have good table manners no matter what religion…its kinda inborn.
I beg to disagree…
granted there will be some female slobs but on the whole i believe most women know how to eat without getting food all over themselves and know not to chew with their mouths wide open.
The ladies don’t eat as quick, but frum females don’t have the best table manners either.
Maybe you’re not eating with the right females 😛
How would anyone know? Most frum females eat in the kitchen because that’s where the men want them. They just come to the dining room to serve the menfolk.
This is silly. There may be some frum homes like this – it is nowhere near “most.”
Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t. But I can guarantee they notice your manners.
Table manners are fascinating. There’s a great book called “The Rituals of Dinner”, about the whole idea of why some things are bad manners, why Americans and Europeans use their knives differently, etc. If you think about it it’s very random; for example my mother insisted that holding your knife like a pen is a no-no, but she wouldn’t raise an eyebrow if someone lit a cigarette between main course and dessert.
I think you give your children a HUGE advantage if you teach them when they’re little, and they see good manners around them. That way when they grow up they don’t have to think about it, it comes naturally to them without being snobbish, and they will never gross anybody out.
That’s what happened to me
The manners themselves are pretty arbitrary. Learning what good manners are gives kids a great advantage in the wider world and cues them in to manners wherever they happen to be. Contrariwise, if they don’t learn them they will be at a serious disadvantage in life. People will react to them badly and think of them as low-class, boorish and stupid. Those are hard impressions to shake. And if you can’t string together coherent grammatical sentences and don’t bathe regularly you might as well wear a sign saying “Born to Fail”
Clarification “Learning what good manners are in your society gives kids a great advantage”.
Old joke:
A fellow was taking a guided tour of Hell with Satan when they walked past three doors. Through the first door he saw poor souls being boiled in oil – the screaming was terrible. He turned to Satan: “What did those poor unfortunate souls do to be treated like this?” Satan replied: “Those are the Catholics who ate meat on Fridays.”
They proceeded to the next door where people were being burned in a fiery furnace – the screams were horrible. He turned to Satan: “Who are these souls?” Satan replied: “Those are the Jews who ate pork.”
At the third door the man saw people being boiled in oil and being burned over a fiery furnace. The screams were worst of all. He turned to Satan: “And what did these souls deserve such a fate?” Satan replied: “Those are the Episcopalians who used their salad forks to eat the main course.”
Heshy, your fate is sealed. In my limited observation, Lubavitcher women, whom you call “hot Chanies,” DO have table manners. I think it’s just a matter of time before you find one who will marry YOU.
i grew up in a mad yeshivish home, and when i was about four years old i learned the concept of chewing with my mouth closed from my filipino nanny. after that i became a huge stickler for manners, and would keep my hands over my ears whenever my father ate (he’s a notoriously loud chewer) and i have SUCH a hard time eating with frummies because i can’t stand to watch them eat and chew….ick. weirdly, my manners have gotten grosser as i’ve moved away from the frummie community, i guess now i feel like i don’t have as much to prove so i can occasionally be a slob when i eat.
I’ve noticed a lack of table manners in many frum places, but not all of them. Some people are machmir about not doing things that disgust others, although that’s a minority.
The real thing that irks me though is people who stand in front of the kiddush table and talk with their friend(s) instead of just grabbing what they want to eat and walking away. I can look away if someone’s got bad table manners, but if someone’s standing in front of the kiddush table blocking everyone else’s access to food…………
I hate lunch today with 2 older Jewish women. It was both disgusting and shocking. I cannot believe someone married these two. They need troughs, not dinner plates. Besides the belching and farting, the lack of basic use of utensils was…odd. Also, I find it gross to watch women pushing 220-300 lbs. eating like there’s no tomorrow. Ew.
I was engaged to a frum guy from Boro Park. He ate ‘normally’ and hated noisy eating, but every one of his friends chewed (noisily) with their mouth open, talked with their mouth full, licked their fingers, and many held their cutlery like shovels.
I’m from the west coast of Canada, so I was totally shocked that intelligent, charming people would eat like this. I actually felt a little put out; it seemed as if they were deliberately being offensive, like guys who make a point of farting loudly in company. I gradually got used to the idea that it is just a cultural thing. To be fair, I must have done plenty of things that seemed strange to them.