So You Think You Can Shomer?
by Anshel M.
Shomer negiah is a fine institution and all that, don’t get me wrong, but you simply cannot convince me that it’s conducive to a robust connection to Hashem. At least for a BT. Or a ger. Or anyone, for that matter, that’s already sampled the Forbidden Fruit.
So why do we buy into it? I received a phone call about six months ago from my rabbi with much huffing and puffing at the other end. He demanded to know what I’d been telling people about my teshuvah, was I telling them that he’d required that I go shomer? I had no idea what he was talking about and told him so. He finally relaxed and confessed that a concerned congregant had gone to him face-to-face to complain that yours truly needed to get laid and to ask how the rabbi could be so cruel. Funny, it hadn’t occurred to me that I needed to get laid because I had no good options at the time. Every face I saw at shul week after week was the same, and I had no desire to indulge with any of them. The seed was now planted, though, and the congregant was right: I did need to get laid, married or not. Why hadn’t I thought of that?
Now it was foremost on my list. I went on a shul-hopping tour, scoping out all local (and not so local) possibilities. Davening went out the window; I had Facebook to check three times a day. Where there was once studying or at least doing shots with the guys on shabbos afternoons in the shul, instead I was shored up in my room with my closer friends discussing whose tuchas looked to be in prime condition lately. Turns out I was the only one that hadn’t been thinking about sex all that time. Trying to drum up any sort of kavanah was now out of the question. No rabbi in his right mind would have ever prescribed this.
Then it happened. I found my horny, observant opposite and let loose. Awkward at first, yes. Feeling like I was shooting myself in the foot as far as being taken seriously by this person as a Jew, you betcha. Able to sleep at night, finally. Plus now I had time to get back into my studies, this time with a clear head.
I went to dinner the other night with another rabbi, younger than the one I call my own. He knows the deal, my shortcomings, and I didn’t even have to say it. I hadn’t mentioned anything but that I’d had a date with the same person two weekends in a row. As we pulled up to my building, he gripped the steering wheel, looked straight ahead and said, “You know shomer negiah is bullshit, right?” It’s true, you can find a rabbi to say anything you want, even if it’s a statement that will break down everything you know.
Now all I have to do is figure out a way for me and Horny to arrive at shul at staggered times and for me to—for G-d’s sake—get this stupid grin off my face.
A little back round information: The girl who wrote this post is an avid fan and commenter, she happened to meet a fellow new commenter over a facebook status comment and a shidduch was formed, inadvertently through me. Of course, like most 35 year old single ladies she’s part of a community and has to sneak around if she’s in a relationship and I completely understand. Do you know how hard it is to get someone to let you stay in the same house, let alone the same room as your girl/boy – friend?
This may also be called fictional shomer negiah!
Hey Beevis, he said “back round” heh heh heh.
I don’t understand why you are calling it shomer negiah.
It is pretty clear they are having sx, and we can debate the merits of that. Why dance around it?
And the rabbi. Why didn’t he just say, “you know not having premarital sx is BS”
The idea that BT’s and gairim have all had sex (which is implied early in the post) is one that isn’t true. That’s an assumption that some FFBers make, but isn’t true for everyone.
I actually wrote about this very issue at some earlier point – how being a BT doesn;t make you better in bed.
that picture never gets old
I wish I had another one, but the other one’s are all of me with my first girlfriend out of high school – so I can’t post them.
What’s all huss and fuss about. You guys know you can loophole arroud all this shomer stuff and still get yo freak on. Just tell her to pull down her skirt and you pull down your zipper… There you got it, sex with your clothes on. Like the old bump n grind I used to do at the Cotton Club with my ladyfriend back in the ’70 before I got drafted for Nam.
Dear Hesh
“One man’s apikorus in another man’s talmud chochom”
that is not a contradiction in terms. You can know tanach,shas,shuchan Aurach and Rambam bal peh and still be an Apikores and a Talmud Chochom.
Even biggest rosh yeshiva will admit that such an individual is a Talmud Chachom. And even an the most Athiest college professor will admit he is Apikores.
The terms are mutually exclusive
I still have a hard time understanding how people can see kashrus, tefillin, shabbos and other mitzvos as mandatory, and easily accept their no exceptions policy – regardless of their difficulty, but when it comes to anything which has to do with s*x, a whole new set of rules along with a whole new way of thinking develops out of nowhere.
Hey the bratha Yankel
Let me break it down for ya:
We is comes other mitzvos there are clearly defined lines what is Bibical, Rabinnic and minhag etc….
But when it comes to matters of Men and women “the system”(Bais Yakov and yeshiva)has brain washed these kids into thinking everything(even touching) is ussur and frowned upon. Without clearly difining the line between Rabbinic, Bibcal etc… Hence these kids don’t take it seriously cause the know the system only taught them a half truth and they are confused
No South Bratha, let me break it down for you. Anyone who differentiates between a rabbinic obligation/restriction/decree and an open Mitzva in the Torah is not an Orthodox Jew.
As the saying went in the olden days, “The only one who it makes a difference to, is the angel of torture in Hell.”
As far as our actions are concerned, the two are EXACTLY the same. In fact, the Torah itself obligates all Jews to adhere to the words of the Sanhedrin, so everything Rabbinic is by definition Biblical as well.
For some reason, Shomer Negiah has the reputaion that it is a mere “Minhag” or “Chumra”. It is as much of a halacha as anything else.
That’s the point at which I have to say Judaism is wrong and Islam is right. “There is no God but God.” Saying “My words are the same as God’s. My will is as binding on Jews as that of the Lord of Hosts” is about as arrogant and idolatrous a statement as it’s possible to make.
We’re supposed to obey Torah because it’s perfect. Nothing but God is perfect, and that includes the opinions of any human being no matter how pious.
If G-d cannot create a wisdom, or system, through which humans will be able to recognize exactly what G-d wants, then he’s not perfect.
The only reason the words of Chazal have the status they do, is because that was actually what G-d had commanded about them.
G-d wants people to get laid!
What people want, they find a way to get.
I’m aware that at the end of the day people do what they want. Essentially what I’m asking is, don’t these people see the blatant contradiction in their way of thinking?
I mean how did s*x and relationships end up in their own category?
Case in point:
A man Touching a woman (even a Niddah) will only make him Tamei. There is no issur in becoming tamei, (you just go to the mikvah)unless your a Cohen. Then again everyone is tamei mes anyway nowdays. Shomer Negiah is a “fence arround the torah” not to wind up screwing aniddah wich is assur dorraysah
My friend, I’m no
My friend, I’m not going to go through all the technicalities with you here, but suffice it to say that you have quite a bit of misinformation.
If you’re not Jewish, then it’s very impressive that you know so much, but still, there are many more laws and rules out there which you are unaware of.
I never understood how we got from what is written in the torah about illicit sexual relationships all the way to negiah. The torah clearly prohibits all kinds of incest and such, but nowhere does it say that you can’t touch or even have sex with somebody who is not your wife. Unlike kosher, shabbos and other things that observant people adhere to, negiah and the rest seem contrived, certainly in comparison to these other halachos.
“Unlike kosher, shabbos and other things that observant people adhere to, negiah and the rest seem contrived, certainly in comparison to these other halachos”
Ok, let’s start with Shabbos. Where does the Torah say you can’t write a letter to your friend?
It doesn’t.
How ’bout buying lunch?
Nope. Not a word.
Ok, smoking?
It actually says “There shall not burn a fire in all your dwellings on the day of Shabbos”, so I guess if you needed a cig you could go to your non-Jewish neighbor for one.
Milk and meat?
Nope. What it does say is “Do not cook a goat in the milk of its own mother.” That’s all.
Do you see what I’m getting at? The written Torah is a coded map, and the oral Torah is the explanation of the map.
There is actually very little difference between Negiah and Shabbos in terms of how obscure the words are in the Torah.
Actually, there is a huge difference. For example, nowhere in the torah does it describe what teffilin are. It just says what is says in the shema (a sign between your eyes etc). So the oral tradition fills us in on what the torah only alludes to. That is completely different than creating a prohibition that does not exist in the torah at all. Yes, you cannot have sex with a nidah. Actually, the torah says you cannot “uncover the nakedness”, which is interpreted through the oral law as “no sex.” Fine. But going from there to all the tznius laws and the negiah laws seems, to me anyway, rabbinic overkill that has little, if any, source in the torah.
i agree with you, but i think there needs to be a compromise. “no sex before marriage” is a perfectly reasonable restriction, and we shouldn’t be proud to be going behind everyone’s back to do so, but i think the frustration that causes the jump to sex is because even touching or kissing is prohibited. do we not see a difference between sex before marriage and keeping completely shomer? how is premarital sex categorized as the same as a handshake or a hug??? so as if you have done one of the lesser things, you might as well go out and schtuck everyone because you’ve already broken shomer? i’m the first to admit i’ve broken shomer with handshakes, hugs, kisses, whatnot, but to me sex is an entirely different thing, and i won’t be using a “already broken shomer” loophole to cheat on that before i get married and i think anyone that does seriously needs to re-evaluate why they are even orthodox at all.
Daniel,
I understand your view, but the fact is – the Torah disagrees with you. What’s forbidden is forbidden, and even if you come up with a reason why to permit the forbidden, and even if it seems to make sense, and even if your goal is to keep the Torah better in other areas, it is still forbidden. (Translation: G-d has specifically instructed you to keep to HIS rules and not yours.)
yankel,
my biggest issue isn’t with shomer neigiah in general and the laws in the torah, it’s the fact that the rabbis included shaking hangs with sex before marriage in the same rule. is there any restriction against regarding them as two separate commandments? my overall point is, it’s really easy to shake hands with a girl, or even touch her hand on accident. a lot of people seem to have the attitude that if they’ve done that, they might as well do everything else under the sun because they’ve already “broken shomer”, and i’ve seen a lot of that in the comments section on here (although i realize some people are being facetious). i don’t think shaking a woman’s hand is the same as jumping into bed with her, and i think that those who decide to ignore the entire commandment are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. i guess i didn’t really explain it that well before.
So the problem is with those MO idiots who invented the term “shomer”. There’s a reason nobody goes around calling themselves “shomer shatnez”. It’s forbidden and that’s all there is to it. No retarded ‘option’ of whether or not someone is ‘shomer’ the laws of shatnez.
The only place where we use the term ‘shomer’ for any mitzva, is “shomer shabbos”, which is essentially just another way of saying ‘Observant’.
The problem you’re discussing only exists because some people decided to make an obligation in the Torah optional. If you don’t buy into that cr@p in the first place, you won’t have the problem.
Maynard,
Premarital boom boom is prohibited by rabbinic decree. So is getting to 3rd base with anyone other than your spouse.
Even though one may not have been liable to punishment for these transgressions during the time of the Sanhedrin, they were still prohibited.
YOU COULD ACTUALLY HAVE SEX WITH AN UNMARRIED WOMAN(Doraysah)as long as she went to the mickvah first. The only assur is married women and niddahs. There is no such thing as tumah or tharah by goyim(so they are karkah balmah) and their marriges are not halachically considered marridges SO YOU COULD BANG ALL THE SHICKSAS YOU WANT(even the married ones) Doraysah
You don’t really believe this, do you…
Soul Bratha,
There you go thinking with the little head instead of the big head again (OK, in your case maybe not so little 🙂 ).
Muttar D’oraysa doesn’t apply if it’s assur d’rabanan.
As strange as it may sound, only time Jews are allowed to bang shicksas is when they rape them during Milchemet reshut, as we aren’t obligated to kill them. Most opinions hold that we can do this once before taking her as yefat toar, Raavad disagrees and says you must follow yefat toar laws first.
Either way, milchemet reshut doesn’t exist anymore, as we have no king and no Sanhedrin. Besides, I don’t think most Iraqi women fit into the “yefat toar” category 😉
Where does it say in the torah that we have to adhere to the sanhedrin? Wasn’t the sanhedrin established after the torah? In any event, does that mean that we have to adhere to everything every rabbi has said since the time of the sanhedrin?
Maynard,
The Torah says it in regards to judges, saying that we must follow their rulings. Most of our religion is derived from the Torah, aka the oral Torah. These prohibitions are still considered biblical in nature even though they aren’t explicitly stated.
The chumras (strictures?) come from the Rabbis, who usually had a valid reasoning behind their decrees.
As Yankel said, in day to day practice, there is no difference, something forbidden by either remains forbidden.
The only exception is when there is a doubt. In such cases, biblical prohibitions remain stricter/forbidden but rabbinic ones are permitted/lenient.
“The only exception is when there is a doubt. In such cases, biblical prohibitions remain stricter/forbidden but rabbinic ones are permitted/lenient”
Even then, it’s not due to importance per se, it’s because that is the actual law. To be lienient or stringent by questions of Rabbinic or Biblical commandments respectively.
There is a huge difference between “oral law” and rabbinic decrees. Oral law is “filing in the gaps”, like the laws of kosher, shabbos and tefillin, where the torah only speaks in vague terms that could not be put into practice without an overlay of oral law. Rabbinic decrees, like muksa and no-polygamy, are not part of the oral law, they are prohibitions added by the rabbis. and don’t tell me that the torah says that you have to follow the rabbis so therefore violating a rabbinic decree is a violation of the torah. The torah says you have to follow the rulings of the judges. As far as I know, there haven’t been any judges for quite some time. Not every guy with a smicha who is barking out chumras from Lakewood is a “judge” that the torah was referring to.
Maynard,
The decress I was referring to to institued by accepted authorities, such as Tannaim, Amoraim, Roshonim and Achronim. These were for the most part accepted by all frum Jews, which is why we have them in effect today.
I wasn’t referring to a Monsey guy forbidding banning internet or a Villiamsboig rebbele banning newspapers.
There is a concept of having to adhere to a city Beis Din when relevant. (Meaning ONE Beis Din in the city, not 380.)
Ok I got to call you out Manyard. I does say in the torah you cant have sex with a niddah
a
No non-jewish women don’t have Kedushuh, tumah ,teharah etc.. they are Karcah Balmah and the Nissuin is not a nussuin, thier kedushin is not a kedushin, their arusin is not an arusin so the are not considered married.
Why do you keep stating things as facts after I just told you that you are extremely misinformed on the entire subject from beginning to end?
Ok, fair enough. Last talk straight turkey brotha.
How was Ester allowed to have sex with Achashveyrosh?
It’s complicated. Let’s just say that the fact that the lives of all the Jews were at stake, overrode a lot.
Even so, in most cases of life and death it would still be forbidden. When all other problems are addressed, karka olam becomes a relevant factor.
> How was Ester allowed to have sex with Achashveyrosh?
That’s only a problem if you assume that Esther was Frum.
Non-jews cannot become niddah and cant get married(at least no according to jewish law and the torah) so they are fair game. Except for the few nations the torah mentions the we cannot co-habitat with. But nowdays you can go basar rov and any shiksah is fair game. PARTY ON!!!!!!
Taht is for as sex is permitted. However from a chillul Hasham point of view I wouldn’t mess with a non-jew’s wife(unless you want your ass whooped!!!
Mayard:
By saying childish things like “barking out chumrahs from lakewood” you are hinting that your arguments are inherintly subjective and biased and motivated by a vandetta. I am not saying your wrong, but comparing yeshiva guys to dows in an ad hominum style looses you points on the bully pulpit.
Soul Bratha- point taken, but this is not an academic forum, and it’s all for fun (gee, I hope nobody is taking any of this stuff too seriously, if they are, they need to get a life), so I don’t mind spicing things up with some subjectivity and bias.
hahaha priceless 🙂
Damn Heshy, do you like that pic, or what? Someone who’s OTD and doesn’t care, make him another pic already!