You just don’t understand. She has a … a… a… PUSSY. There’s a mystical power to the shmekele that makes any yid who owns one the Crown of Creation. This might make them insecure. And women might laugh at them.
I know!!! Evaluating and considering women’s role in society and (our society), what a worthless, childish naive dream. I bet perfecting that new cholent recipe will give them meaning that this hollow “cause” never could.
It is terrible Heshy. Between this and the dramatic homosexuals bringing on the natural disasters we are literally up a creek without a paddle. WHAT WILL WE DO?
“Evaluating and considering women’s role in society and (our society)”
This is certainly not all of women’s role in society. I don’t know what you are talking about. But the words sounded good together. You should be on The View.
She’s part of the Orthodox movement because that’s what she’s used to? Lame. How about because you believe in the Oral Torah, or any number of the other hashkafic differences?
I bet she became a Rabba and put herself in a position of ridicule pretty much because that is what she is used to. She probably did not think about the decision at all. I bet it was a pretty easy road to take don’t you think? I know I bet she has never even considered the notion of Oral Torah or Hashkafa
Tinok: The interviewer specifically asked her why she chose the orthodox denomination.
If someone asked me that, I’d say because the others are BS, not because I was more used to it.
And that would be an incredibly inflammatory, childish and disrespectful remark. That is the attitude that creates so much ignorance and disdain towards all other movements of judaism other thank orthodoxy.
Childish?
Which part is childish?
Is the fact that I have beliefs which I think are true childish?
Is the fact that I am willing to profess them, at least when specifically asked, childish?
Better childish than stupid.
Simply disregarding other movements and communities as “BS” is childish and demonstrates your lack of ability of lack of desire to use logic and engage in discourse.
How does it demonstrate that? If I was asked by an interviewer why I choose orthodoxy, I should go on a hours long rant, and invite someone else for discourse?
If you ask me a question, I’ll answer it.
“Why do you choose orthodoxy?” “Because it is the truth, and the others are false.”
“Why is it the truth?” “Ok, we can discuss that also. It will probably take the rest of this interview- is that ok?”
Avi, you’re not making good points here. If you want, I can switch sides and help you.
Ahhhhhhh your modified answer was even a little better. Saying it is truth and others are false is far different than saying the others are BS. Yes, one may say it is only a language difference, but the language is very important.
Maybe she does not want to say something that would alienate other movements or communities. You may think that doesn’t matter but I think there are people out there who are not in a hurry to create more resentment among communities.
Really Dan?? Haha. I think I am fine just by myself.
I wonder why this got stuck in moderation all day. Looks fine to me.
I have no clue. haha. seriously like allllll day.
And I wouldn’t actually say “BS”. I don’t even use that terminology except on this site. (nor have I ever written wtf before, I don’t think. I had to write f— in a paper for school last year, and I think it was the first time I had ever done that.)
wow.
wow.
Very annoying. I can’t imagine anyone sitting through one of her sermons.
I believe Ortho women are supposed to keep their hair fully covered, especially one that considers herself the equivalent of a rabbi.
It is really sad how so many of the comments on the post seem to be either motivated by anger, are blatantly dismissive (I would argue it is solely because she is a woman) or just mocking. It seems like misogyny to me.
I assume that someone will argue that just because you dont like a particular woman or disagree with what she says that does not make you a misogynist and I would not agree more with you, but my perception of these short brief comments are they are fairly baseless, dismissive and lacking almost any individual thought.
I agree with U Avi. If this was a man saying the exact same things, nobody would jump down his throat. I just don’t understand how anybody who considers themselves an observant Jew can mock or put down somebody that is trying to work with the Jewish community and pass on Torah. You don’t have to agree with her, but how about some respect?
I do disrespect women “rabbis”. Not because they are perverting torah by pretending to be pious while undermining it, but mainly, because the are completely ignorant and have no place in any rabbinic role at all.
Sure, Devorah the prophetess was actually learned. These clowns go to some kollel for two or three years and then pretend they know something.
I learned full time in yeshiva for 10 years, and that was after I already was learning 6 hours a day in high school for 4 years.
These ladies know as much as your average guy in first year beis medrash. They would be am haaratzim, but only men can be that also.
She studied for 3 years at the drisha institute. That is not equivalent to 3 years in yeshiva, since 1, she had no prior background in learning, and 2, they don’t have the same hours (total of 31.5 per week, compared to 55 per week in any normal yeshiva.)
She then spent 7 years serving in the leadership of avi weiss’s shul (with those stellar qualifications, why not?), where she learned with him. (probably 10 hours a day? probably not.)
So you can take that back, if you want. And gee, you could have also googled it, why did you ask how I know?
Actually, from looking at her bio, it seems like she had done quite a bit of learning before she went to Drisha. Also, based on what I know of Drisha and people I know who went there, it’s fairly intensive, full-time learning, and not just during official coursework hours.
And how do you know what she did during 7 years w/Avi Weiss? My mother went from a completely uneducated, secular Jew to professional Jewish educator in ~7 years of one-on-one tutoring.
So, no, I don’t think you know what kind of learning she’s done. I know people who spent a bajillion hours in Beit Midrash, kibbitzing the whole time and learning very little. And I know other people who have full time professional jobs and learn on the bus or their living rooms with great amounts of devotion and concentration.
I don’t think you’re opposed to her title because you think she’s not sufficiently educated. I think you’re opposed to her and everything she says because she’s a woman.
“it seems like she had done quite a bit of learning before she went to Drisha.”
You are referring to her year in seminary, or her immediate leadership roles afterwards- part of the problem.
Look, there is no question Mrs. Hurwitz is more educated than the other women clown rabbis out there, and also she is clearly and undoubtedly far less educated than any rabbi from a normal yeshiva.
So even if you think she happens to be educated enough, I have been exposed to some of her peers who hold similar positions without using the title rabba, and they are completely ignorant.
This is a problem. I also don’t hide the fact that I am opposed merely because she is a woman, even if she would know as much as me.
“undoubtedly far less educated than any rabbi from a normal yeshiva” – really? Everyone in Lakewood is a rabbi, assuming he wears a white shirt. Why don’t you take issue with that, which is a far larger phenominon?
“Everyone in Lakewood is a rabbi?”
WTF?
I am talking about people who lead congregations or in academic positions. Not people the media calls rabbi because they are clueless. And not people the gabbai calls up as harav because their father in law might get offended.
And I don’t hide the fact that I’m opposed to you because you’re a bigot who huddles behind halacha in a failed attempt to mask your bigotry. You’re the clown here, not Rabba Hurwitz, and I’m done engaging with you.
“huddles behind halacha”? Are you implying that this is some sort of crime? Isn’t “huddles behind Halacha” that which defines what a Torah Jew is all about?
I’m guessing you would call anyone who held this was the halacha a “bigot”. Or am I allowed to hold this is the halacha, but not allowed to say it?
Some might think that makes you bigoted. According to one online dictionary (with that URL), a bigot is “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.”
You are intolerant of my belief and opinion. You say that my holding this opinion makes me a bad person and a bigot.
I am not intolerant of your opinion, I just say it is wrong. I don’t say you are a bad person for holding it- I just say it is wrong.
Like I told Avi, you guys really need someone like me to argue your side- you guys just aren’t cutting it.
Dan, you are right. It was your charm that got me. I can confidently speak for all of us. We are sold!
See, that is more like it. Now you are talking like me.
Man, Shlomo is at Shul, right on. It seems like sometimes we get so caught up in halacha that we forget how we should treat each other and those that may not be just like us or share our same views…. Jews AND Non Jews.
She says if there is a split in Orthodoxy, it will be because of one of two issues. 1. Centralization of leadership, 2. Conversion.
I haven’t the foggiest idea what she is talking about.
Centralization? huh?
Conversion? Does she mean being willing to marry goyim who “converted” through the non-orthodox? That won’t be a split in orthodoxy, that is a split between orthodox and conservative and happened a long time ago.
Halachic conversion does not necessarily mean an orthodox conversion. Orthodox conversions are halachic but all halachic conversions are not necessarily Orthodox.
No, they kind of all are Orthodox.
For several reasons:
1. You need kosher eidim. Which must be keeping the mitzvos. Which only orthodox do.
2. You need to intend to keep the mitzvos. Which only orthodox do, and you would only be aware of that in an orthodox conversion.
3. You need kosher beis din. Same problem.
Every point is dead on except the statement that “only orthodox do,” that is not true and could never be evaluated objectively as a blanket statement, but there is no way I am going to get into one of these “conversion” debates that always seem to start on any frumsatire post. I probably should not have even commented in the first place….
She definitely undermines the role women’s issues play within orthodoxy. I know of many, many congregations that create a second minyan that is more inclusive of women (i.e. women may do x,y, and z in the upstairs minyan but not the downstairs one).
She does have a point, though. The argument over women’s rights and roles is part of a larger, world view debate. There are those that think Orthodoxy should be moving forward, trying to keep up with modernity, while of course still staying within Halacha. On the other hand, there are those that think Orthodoxy should stay exactly where it has been and should make no changes whatsoever (although they sometimes forget that the “Orthodoxy” of 200 years ago looked very very different from even the most right-wing orthodoxy today). This split, we may call it the split between Modern Orthodoxy and Yeshivish Orthodoxy, is certainly polarizing the Orthodox community.
The biggest problem with the women “rabbi” clowns, is they are completely ignorant. They go to some womens kollel for 2 or 3 years, having no previous background in learning gemara or shulchan aruch, and then consider themselves learned.
They know as much as your average guy first year out of high school in a major yeshiva.
I learned for 10 years full time post high school, after learning 6 hours a day for 4 years in high school.
These ladies are just plain am haaratzim- except that term is only used for men.
If they really want to be like men, she should call herself an Am Haaretzah
Come on, thats a stupid comment. Even an absolutely brilliant person would need raw time just to cover all the material and concepts necessary, let alone to master them (if such a thing is even possible) to some extent. Plus, the implication would be that she is on an even higher level and more brilliant than every other musmach, who have ~2+ decades of Torah-learning experience and background.
Lehavdil, how many lawyers become partners upon graduating law school?
Even the greatest Torah minds who began learning at a high level at very early ages went through full smicha programs, which generally extend between 4 – 7 years depending on the Yeshiva (whether YU world, Yeshivish world, or in Israeli yeshivos) – programs that take place after a decade+ of learning and before an internship /apprenticeship / pulpit training of some sort.
Man or woman, its insulting for anyone to get up and call themselves a Rabbi, with the same standard of expertise and knowledge and, consequently, weight of opinion on Jewish and Halachic matters as those who have spent more than 2x the amount time training and learning and preparing etc. Lehavdil, no different than a med school student (even the most brilliant) going by “doctor” in front of several attending physicians.
It shows a total lack of respect for what the title means and the weight it carries in the orthodox world.
On top of all this, that she insists on being of the orthodox denomination is what gets everyone peeved. Listen, there are tons of women rabbis of the conservative and reform denominations and you dont hear the orthodox go off on them (i.e. other than the concept of a woman rabbi, not the women themselves). The problem is that the vast vast vast majority of those that are considered orthodox Jews are considered such because of a core belief in following the written and oral Torah as has been taught and handed down for generations, and therefore includes minhagei yisrael and the sometimes elusive “mesorah”. If someone has a problem with how the orthodox do things, you can’t just throw it out but insist on keeping the label. You can say you are observant, but you can’t say youre orthodox – by definition you are not if you dont follow the definitions of what is an orthodox Jew. Orthodoxy doesnt change (think the word “orthodox”) as much as people’s individual beliefs do. If you have a different belief on how things should be done, thats great, but don’t brand it with a label that represents something else.
Whether you agree with woman rabbis or not, it is very clearly not a an acceptable concept within [majority consensus] orthodox Jewry, which by definition makes a woman rabbi not orthodox (and a paradox).
It shouldnt come as a surprise that people with a specific belief system which they hold sacred, along with the honorary titles bestowed within that system, will get upset when a person brands themselves with that sacred title and a belief system when the vast majority of the very people the person claims inclusion to don’t accept the claim to that title nor have a belief system that completely jives.
All of a sudden you’re concerned about what Hashem wants?
The whole interview, did she mention Hashem at all?
“Why did you want to be a rabbi?” Oh, she’s there to teach and be a role model, bla bla.
I didn’t hear her mention Hashem once.
Is Hashem just this line you throw out at us when you think it will embarrass us? Well, I’m not embarrassed. There is no “hate”. There is derision, disdain, disappointment. You people are pathetic.
Yep, all of a sudden. Just popped into my head now. I usually never keep that in the forefront of my mind day in and day. It is better to forget all about it and obsess over the minute of halacha. Sorry Dan, this was just a low point of weakness for me.
I’ve got some news for our bunny rabbit: Orthodoxy isn’t going to split over her, nor over any “decentralization of power” whatever the heck that’s supposed to mean.
She can parade around doing interviews & calling herself whatever she wants. She can make whatever claims she wants in regards to what “othodoxy” really is and where it’s limits are. All make no difference at all, as no frum shul or community will ever accept her as a rav, leader or posek.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with her counselling people or giving lectures, thousands of frum women and rebbetzins are already doing that.
She is asked what the halachic basis is for this. She answers it has always existed and gives an example. Well, she is right, there have been several examples over several thousand years.
That means that it was always accepted, but was only for the once in a thousand years people like Devorah the prophetess, and that woman who ran a yeshiva she is talking about.
Well, what makes her think she is that one in a thousand years? And why open a school to train more, when it will probably be another thousand years before it happens?
You think it’s a problem. I don’t think it’s a problem. In any event, there is no contradiction in what I’m saying; there are two problems from my point of view. 1, she shouldn’t be trying to get involved in learning and leadership; 2, she is presumably ignorant and shouldn’t be leading even if you disagree with number one.
“She shouldn’t be trying to get involved in learning and leadership.”
So this really has nothing to do with how qualified she is; in your mind, she is incapable of being qualified simply because she is a woman. And this also has nothing to do with halacha, and her nonobligation in mitzvot assei she’zman grama, which is what is normally cited in people’s opposite to Conservative woman rabbis.
I had gotten the impression that most Orthodox people, even though they did not think women should be rabbis, still thought that they should learn, lead, and contribute to the community.
But for you, a woman’s role is nothing more than to provide you cholent, babies, and a hole to stick your penis in.
Firstly, as I pointed out, there are two problems here. As I said.
Second, this has nothing to do with mitzvas asei shehazman grama! Which idiot gave you that idea?
This has to do with gender roles, as you conclude.
I don’t know why you think the two choices are “rabbi” v. “hole to stick penis in”. I think there is a healthy middle ground, where women are not supposed to lead, and are not supposed to learn for the sake of learning or leading.
They are supposed to learn for the sake of knowing how to keep the torah, which ultra orthodox seminaries do an admirable job of. And they are supposed to listen to the leadership, which is provided by men.
And of course they are supposed to contribute to the community. Do ultra orthodox women not contribute to the community? Is caring for your family not a contribution to the community? Is helping friends and neighbors not a contribution to the community?
whoever doesnt believe in different roles for men and women is simply a fool and whoever doesnt believe they are both of equal importance is also a fool but the roles must be defined and one thing is clear based on torah and logic a womans role is mostly in the home and certainly not leadership
I’m hardly an expert on Jewish law, and I have nothing to say about Hurwitz herself, but the interviewer was wrong twice in the first few minutes:
1) Hurwitz was not ordained BY the “orthodox movement”. She was ordained by one rabbi, whose opinions on certain topics are dimissed by almost the entire orthodox world.
2) Hurwitz’s ordination did not CAUSE a split between left and right wing orthodoxy; rather, it was a manifestation of a split that had occurred long ago.
The interviewer gives too much weight and import to the “ordination” , and I’ve yet to see that Hurwitz’s ordination has created any kind of revolution, tidal wave, or groundswell.
Women, just like men, can certainly have the skills, ambition, calling, intellect, and compassion to be rabbis, but that doesn’t mean it’s in keeping with Jewish law or even a good thing. Only time will tell.
So many of these comments from the men reveal nothing but sheer sexist attitudes. That garbage about “gender roles” is crap. Men use it to stroke their precious little egos. Men have manipulated women in society into thinking that nothing should be important to us but being pretty and having kids. The men on here make all sorts of excuses why a BS seminary is better than learning from the sources. The problem with that is the seminaries are teaching garbage that isn’t even in the Torah like most of this tznius crap.
You men have women sounding like airheads because you brainwash them then you say that women are airheads.
Yes, we are aware you do not believe in gender roles. We are also aware that you then castigate anyone who does believe in gender roles- making you a bigot. A bigot is “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” You are intolerant of my belief in gender roles, since you castigate me based on it.
You conflate “airhead” with “ignorant”.
Indeed our women, and your women, and your women rabbis, (and many of your men rabbis), are ignorant. This is as it should be, since women have no commandment to learn for the sake of learning, but only in order to know how to fulfill. One does not have to learn gemara to know how to fulfill.
We do not complain about their ignorance. I complain when the ignorant serve in rabbinic roles as if they are learned.
I agree with Dan overall, perhaps would quarrel with a few minor details, but overall he is correct.
Additionally, within the orthodox world in which I live, the women are very educated, accomplished, respected, and Torah observant. They are fulfilled in their lives despite not being allowed to become Rabbas, not getting aliyot, not dancing with the Torah, etc….
Dan’s point about the Devorah and “once in a thousand years” is absolutely correct. I’m pretty sure Sara Hurwitz should not be compared to Devorah, as I should not be compared to the Chofetz Chaim, or Ya’akov Avinu.
I strongly believe that if Sara Hurwitz was a responsible professional clergyman (person, woman, whatever….), she would be more stringent with covering her hair and dressing modestly. I have seen a picture of her in the Forward newspaper where she was showing more skin than I would let my daughter show, and I give my daughter some leeway to express her individuality. Likewise, I don’t want to see my Rav in a polo shirt and shorts. I can wear that, but not my Rav.
The first woman “Rabbi”, in my humble opinion, should set the bar high, not low.
Ok, in reading more carefully, I would strongly disagree with Dan’s point about women being ignorant. I am hoping it didn’t come out the way he truly intended.
If anyone has been fortunate enough to know truly brilliant talmidot chachamot – Tzipora Heller, Erica Brown & Shira Smiles immediately come to mind but there are others – they are already providing the sort of “leadership” role that Sara Hurwitz mentions as chaplain counselors; in advising women according to halacha about “intimate” issues; as role models for women; in giving shiurim; in their knowledge of halacha and (gasp!) gemara. Yet for some reason these women do not seek the “rabba” title nor do they have a need for this recognition – yet they are completely respected and admired even lacking this rabba title. So why is the “rabba” title deemed necessary? It seems more of a political move to me.
You just don’t understand. She has a … a… a… PUSSY. There’s a mystical power to the shmekele that makes any yid who owns one the Crown of Creation. This might make them insecure. And women might laugh at them.
So what with what title do we address the husband of a Raba?Rabo?
Or… Mr. Hurwitz would work.
Some people called our rabbi’s husband the Rebbetzman. =P
The hostess looks like she wants to eat Sara
And she reminds me of Ali G.
Who, the intervierwer or the rabbit?
Ali G probably would have asked her if she was into other women or if she would agree to appear in Playboy… Booyaksha!
that lipstick is a skanky color.
These people are petty fools.
Why don’t they try to find some real meaning in life, instead of wasting their energy on stupid meaningless causes.
I know!!! Evaluating and considering women’s role in society and (our society), what a worthless, childish naive dream. I bet perfecting that new cholent recipe will give them meaning that this hollow “cause” never could.
We should have never gave them the right to vote and own land, look where it got us – now society will surely end.
It is terrible Heshy. Between this and the dramatic homosexuals bringing on the natural disasters we are literally up a creek without a paddle. WHAT WILL WE DO?
“Evaluating and considering women’s role in society and (our society)”
This is certainly not all of women’s role in society. I don’t know what you are talking about. But the words sounded good together. You should be on The View.
That is my main gig, writing for whoopee and barbara walters on the view. My night gig is writing for the garbage they call news programming on msnbc.
wow is she annoying
She’s part of the Orthodox movement because that’s what she’s used to? Lame. How about because you believe in the Oral Torah, or any number of the other hashkafic differences?
I bet she became a Rabba and put herself in a position of ridicule pretty much because that is what she is used to. She probably did not think about the decision at all. I bet it was a pretty easy road to take don’t you think? I know I bet she has never even considered the notion of Oral Torah or Hashkafa
I wouldn’t go that far…I just had a quibble with that particular point.
Agree with Eli. Doesn’t she have the guts to say she actually believes in Orthodoxy?
Since she’s an Orthodox Rabbi, the belief in Orthodoxy could be taken as implied.
Tinok: The interviewer specifically asked her why she chose the orthodox denomination.
If someone asked me that, I’d say because the others are BS, not because I was more used to it.
And that would be an incredibly inflammatory, childish and disrespectful remark. That is the attitude that creates so much ignorance and disdain towards all other movements of judaism other thank orthodoxy.
Childish?
Which part is childish?
Is the fact that I have beliefs which I think are true childish?
Is the fact that I am willing to profess them, at least when specifically asked, childish?
Better childish than stupid.
Simply disregarding other movements and communities as “BS” is childish and demonstrates your lack of ability of lack of desire to use logic and engage in discourse.
How does it demonstrate that? If I was asked by an interviewer why I choose orthodoxy, I should go on a hours long rant, and invite someone else for discourse?
If you ask me a question, I’ll answer it.
“Why do you choose orthodoxy?” “Because it is the truth, and the others are false.”
“Why is it the truth?” “Ok, we can discuss that also. It will probably take the rest of this interview- is that ok?”
Avi, you’re not making good points here. If you want, I can switch sides and help you.
Ahhhhhhh your modified answer was even a little better. Saying it is truth and others are false is far different than saying the others are BS. Yes, one may say it is only a language difference, but the language is very important.
Maybe she does not want to say something that would alienate other movements or communities. You may think that doesn’t matter but I think there are people out there who are not in a hurry to create more resentment among communities.
Really Dan?? Haha. I think I am fine just by myself.
I wonder why this got stuck in moderation all day. Looks fine to me.
I have no clue. haha. seriously like allllll day.
And I wouldn’t actually say “BS”. I don’t even use that terminology except on this site. (nor have I ever written wtf before, I don’t think. I had to write f— in a paper for school last year, and I think it was the first time I had ever done that.)
wow.
wow.
Very annoying. I can’t imagine anyone sitting through one of her sermons.
I believe Ortho women are supposed to keep their hair fully covered, especially one that considers herself the equivalent of a rabbi.
It is really sad how so many of the comments on the post seem to be either motivated by anger, are blatantly dismissive (I would argue it is solely because she is a woman) or just mocking. It seems like misogyny to me.
I assume that someone will argue that just because you dont like a particular woman or disagree with what she says that does not make you a misogynist and I would not agree more with you, but my perception of these short brief comments are they are fairly baseless, dismissive and lacking almost any individual thought.
Word!
Double-word.
Hint: if a woman is annoying you just because she’s a woman, you’re a sexist a-hole.
I agree with U Avi. If this was a man saying the exact same things, nobody would jump down his throat. I just don’t understand how anybody who considers themselves an observant Jew can mock or put down somebody that is trying to work with the Jewish community and pass on Torah. You don’t have to agree with her, but how about some respect?
Respect?
I do disrespect women “rabbis”. Not because they are perverting torah by pretending to be pious while undermining it, but mainly, because the are completely ignorant and have no place in any rabbinic role at all.
Sure, Devorah the prophetess was actually learned. These clowns go to some kollel for two or three years and then pretend they know something.
I learned full time in yeshiva for 10 years, and that was after I already was learning 6 hours a day in high school for 4 years.
These ladies know as much as your average guy in first year beis medrash. They would be am haaratzim, but only men can be that also.
Wow, what slander, during the 10 days. How do you know how much Torah she’s learned?
Her bio is online.
She studied for 3 years at the drisha institute. That is not equivalent to 3 years in yeshiva, since 1, she had no prior background in learning, and 2, they don’t have the same hours (total of 31.5 per week, compared to 55 per week in any normal yeshiva.)
She then spent 7 years serving in the leadership of avi weiss’s shul (with those stellar qualifications, why not?), where she learned with him. (probably 10 hours a day? probably not.)
So you can take that back, if you want. And gee, you could have also googled it, why did you ask how I know?
Actually, from looking at her bio, it seems like she had done quite a bit of learning before she went to Drisha. Also, based on what I know of Drisha and people I know who went there, it’s fairly intensive, full-time learning, and not just during official coursework hours.
And how do you know what she did during 7 years w/Avi Weiss? My mother went from a completely uneducated, secular Jew to professional Jewish educator in ~7 years of one-on-one tutoring.
So, no, I don’t think you know what kind of learning she’s done. I know people who spent a bajillion hours in Beit Midrash, kibbitzing the whole time and learning very little. And I know other people who have full time professional jobs and learn on the bus or their living rooms with great amounts of devotion and concentration.
I don’t think you’re opposed to her title because you think she’s not sufficiently educated. I think you’re opposed to her and everything she says because she’s a woman.
“it seems like she had done quite a bit of learning before she went to Drisha.”
You are referring to her year in seminary, or her immediate leadership roles afterwards- part of the problem.
Look, there is no question Mrs. Hurwitz is more educated than the other women clown rabbis out there, and also she is clearly and undoubtedly far less educated than any rabbi from a normal yeshiva.
So even if you think she happens to be educated enough, I have been exposed to some of her peers who hold similar positions without using the title rabba, and they are completely ignorant.
This is a problem. I also don’t hide the fact that I am opposed merely because she is a woman, even if she would know as much as me.
“undoubtedly far less educated than any rabbi from a normal yeshiva” – really? Everyone in Lakewood is a rabbi, assuming he wears a white shirt. Why don’t you take issue with that, which is a far larger phenominon?
“Everyone in Lakewood is a rabbi?”
WTF?
I am talking about people who lead congregations or in academic positions. Not people the media calls rabbi because they are clueless. And not people the gabbai calls up as harav because their father in law might get offended.
And I don’t hide the fact that I’m opposed to you because you’re a bigot who huddles behind halacha in a failed attempt to mask your bigotry. You’re the clown here, not Rabba Hurwitz, and I’m done engaging with you.
“huddles behind halacha”? Are you implying that this is some sort of crime? Isn’t “huddles behind Halacha” that which defines what a Torah Jew is all about?
I’m guessing you would call anyone who held this was the halacha a “bigot”. Or am I allowed to hold this is the halacha, but not allowed to say it?
Some might think that makes you bigoted. According to one online dictionary (with that URL), a bigot is “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.”
You are intolerant of my belief and opinion. You say that my holding this opinion makes me a bad person and a bigot.
I am not intolerant of your opinion, I just say it is wrong. I don’t say you are a bad person for holding it- I just say it is wrong.
Like I told Avi, you guys really need someone like me to argue your side- you guys just aren’t cutting it.
Dan, you are right. It was your charm that got me. I can confidently speak for all of us. We are sold!
See, that is more like it. Now you are talking like me.
Man, Shlomo is at Shul, right on. It seems like sometimes we get so caught up in halacha that we forget how we should treat each other and those that may not be just like us or share our same views…. Jews AND Non Jews.
She says if there is a split in Orthodoxy, it will be because of one of two issues. 1. Centralization of leadership, 2. Conversion.
I haven’t the foggiest idea what she is talking about.
Centralization? huh?
Conversion? Does she mean being willing to marry goyim who “converted” through the non-orthodox? That won’t be a split in orthodoxy, that is a split between orthodox and conservative and happened a long time ago.
Halachic conversion does not necessarily mean an orthodox conversion. Orthodox conversions are halachic but all halachic conversions are not necessarily Orthodox.
No, they kind of all are Orthodox.
For several reasons:
1. You need kosher eidim. Which must be keeping the mitzvos. Which only orthodox do.
2. You need to intend to keep the mitzvos. Which only orthodox do, and you would only be aware of that in an orthodox conversion.
3. You need kosher beis din. Same problem.
Every point is dead on except the statement that “only orthodox do,” that is not true and could never be evaluated objectively as a blanket statement, but there is no way I am going to get into one of these “conversion” debates that always seem to start on any frumsatire post. I probably should not have even commented in the first place….
And besides, suppose she really thinks that you are allowed to marry these goyim.
It is worth splitting the orthodox community over it?
She definitely undermines the role women’s issues play within orthodoxy. I know of many, many congregations that create a second minyan that is more inclusive of women (i.e. women may do x,y, and z in the upstairs minyan but not the downstairs one).
She does have a point, though. The argument over women’s rights and roles is part of a larger, world view debate. There are those that think Orthodoxy should be moving forward, trying to keep up with modernity, while of course still staying within Halacha. On the other hand, there are those that think Orthodoxy should stay exactly where it has been and should make no changes whatsoever (although they sometimes forget that the “Orthodoxy” of 200 years ago looked very very different from even the most right-wing orthodoxy today). This split, we may call it the split between Modern Orthodoxy and Yeshivish Orthodoxy, is certainly polarizing the Orthodox community.
The biggest problem with the women “rabbi” clowns, is they are completely ignorant. They go to some womens kollel for 2 or 3 years, having no previous background in learning gemara or shulchan aruch, and then consider themselves learned.
They know as much as your average guy first year out of high school in a major yeshiva.
I learned for 10 years full time post high school, after learning 6 hours a day for 4 years in high school.
These ladies are just plain am haaratzim- except that term is only used for men.
If they really want to be like men, she should call herself an Am Haaretzah
Maybe she doesn’t need 14 years of study – perhaps she’s just smarter than you.
A woman smarter than a man???? Never!! It can’t be. Who would ever think of such a thing.
A woman smarter than a man???? Never!! It can’t be. Who would ever think of such a thing?
Me! All day, every day… Some men make it too easy.
AGREED!
Come on, thats a stupid comment. Even an absolutely brilliant person would need raw time just to cover all the material and concepts necessary, let alone to master them (if such a thing is even possible) to some extent. Plus, the implication would be that she is on an even higher level and more brilliant than every other musmach, who have ~2+ decades of Torah-learning experience and background.
Lehavdil, how many lawyers become partners upon graduating law school?
Even the greatest Torah minds who began learning at a high level at very early ages went through full smicha programs, which generally extend between 4 – 7 years depending on the Yeshiva (whether YU world, Yeshivish world, or in Israeli yeshivos) – programs that take place after a decade+ of learning and before an internship /apprenticeship / pulpit training of some sort.
Man or woman, its insulting for anyone to get up and call themselves a Rabbi, with the same standard of expertise and knowledge and, consequently, weight of opinion on Jewish and Halachic matters as those who have spent more than 2x the amount time training and learning and preparing etc. Lehavdil, no different than a med school student (even the most brilliant) going by “doctor” in front of several attending physicians.
It shows a total lack of respect for what the title means and the weight it carries in the orthodox world.
On top of all this, that she insists on being of the orthodox denomination is what gets everyone peeved. Listen, there are tons of women rabbis of the conservative and reform denominations and you dont hear the orthodox go off on them (i.e. other than the concept of a woman rabbi, not the women themselves). The problem is that the vast vast vast majority of those that are considered orthodox Jews are considered such because of a core belief in following the written and oral Torah as has been taught and handed down for generations, and therefore includes minhagei yisrael and the sometimes elusive “mesorah”. If someone has a problem with how the orthodox do things, you can’t just throw it out but insist on keeping the label. You can say you are observant, but you can’t say youre orthodox – by definition you are not if you dont follow the definitions of what is an orthodox Jew. Orthodoxy doesnt change (think the word “orthodox”) as much as people’s individual beliefs do. If you have a different belief on how things should be done, thats great, but don’t brand it with a label that represents something else.
Whether you agree with woman rabbis or not, it is very clearly not a an acceptable concept within [majority consensus] orthodox Jewry, which by definition makes a woman rabbi not orthodox (and a paradox).
It shouldnt come as a surprise that people with a specific belief system which they hold sacred, along with the honorary titles bestowed within that system, will get upset when a person brands themselves with that sacred title and a belief system when the vast majority of the very people the person claims inclusion to don’t accept the claim to that title nor have a belief system that completely jives.
The hate is frightening. Makes me wonder why any sane woman with any sort of alternatives would come within a country mile of True Torah Judaism(tm)
I know. It is downright embarressing. This is probably exactly what HaShem wants.
All of a sudden you’re concerned about what Hashem wants?
The whole interview, did she mention Hashem at all?
“Why did you want to be a rabbi?” Oh, she’s there to teach and be a role model, bla bla.
I didn’t hear her mention Hashem once.
Is Hashem just this line you throw out at us when you think it will embarrass us? Well, I’m not embarrassed. There is no “hate”. There is derision, disdain, disappointment. You people are pathetic.
Yep, all of a sudden. Just popped into my head now. I usually never keep that in the forefront of my mind day in and day. It is better to forget all about it and obsess over the minute of halacha. Sorry Dan, this was just a low point of weakness for me.
You mean minutiae
Heshy, you got me writing about it and linking you of course. Shiloh Musings: Orthodox Judaism, Another “Religion,” Too?
I’ve got some news for our bunny rabbit: Orthodoxy isn’t going to split over her, nor over any “decentralization of power” whatever the heck that’s supposed to mean.
She can parade around doing interviews & calling herself whatever she wants. She can make whatever claims she wants in regards to what “othodoxy” really is and where it’s limits are. All make no difference at all, as no frum shul or community will ever accept her as a rav, leader or posek.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with her counselling people or giving lectures, thousands of frum women and rebbetzins are already doing that.
Wow, I almost missed the best part of this.
She is asked what the halachic basis is for this. She answers it has always existed and gives an example. Well, she is right, there have been several examples over several thousand years.
That means that it was always accepted, but was only for the once in a thousand years people like Devorah the prophetess, and that woman who ran a yeshiva she is talking about.
Well, what makes her think she is that one in a thousand years? And why open a school to train more, when it will probably be another thousand years before it happens?
Wow. You complain that she’s not learned enough, and then you complain that she’s opening a school to make women more learned.
Why do you think women aren’t as learned? It’s because women aren’t given the opportunity to learn as much as men. And that’s a problem.
You think it’s a problem. I don’t think it’s a problem. In any event, there is no contradiction in what I’m saying; there are two problems from my point of view. 1, she shouldn’t be trying to get involved in learning and leadership; 2, she is presumably ignorant and shouldn’t be leading even if you disagree with number one.
“She shouldn’t be trying to get involved in learning and leadership.”
So this really has nothing to do with how qualified she is; in your mind, she is incapable of being qualified simply because she is a woman. And this also has nothing to do with halacha, and her nonobligation in mitzvot assei she’zman grama, which is what is normally cited in people’s opposite to Conservative woman rabbis.
I had gotten the impression that most Orthodox people, even though they did not think women should be rabbis, still thought that they should learn, lead, and contribute to the community.
But for you, a woman’s role is nothing more than to provide you cholent, babies, and a hole to stick your penis in.
Firstly, as I pointed out, there are two problems here. As I said.
Second, this has nothing to do with mitzvas asei shehazman grama! Which idiot gave you that idea?
This has to do with gender roles, as you conclude.
I don’t know why you think the two choices are “rabbi” v. “hole to stick penis in”. I think there is a healthy middle ground, where women are not supposed to lead, and are not supposed to learn for the sake of learning or leading.
They are supposed to learn for the sake of knowing how to keep the torah, which ultra orthodox seminaries do an admirable job of. And they are supposed to listen to the leadership, which is provided by men.
And of course they are supposed to contribute to the community. Do ultra orthodox women not contribute to the community? Is caring for your family not a contribution to the community? Is helping friends and neighbors not a contribution to the community?
Yes, I believe in gender roles. Call me names.
That is deplorable.
Sounds like being a wife in that kind of situation would be really healthy.
whoever doesnt believe in different roles for men and women is simply a fool and whoever doesnt believe they are both of equal importance is also a fool but the roles must be defined and one thing is clear based on torah and logic a womans role is mostly in the home and certainly not leadership
I’m hardly an expert on Jewish law, and I have nothing to say about Hurwitz herself, but the interviewer was wrong twice in the first few minutes:
1) Hurwitz was not ordained BY the “orthodox movement”. She was ordained by one rabbi, whose opinions on certain topics are dimissed by almost the entire orthodox world.
2) Hurwitz’s ordination did not CAUSE a split between left and right wing orthodoxy; rather, it was a manifestation of a split that had occurred long ago.
The interviewer gives too much weight and import to the “ordination” , and I’ve yet to see that Hurwitz’s ordination has created any kind of revolution, tidal wave, or groundswell.
Women, just like men, can certainly have the skills, ambition, calling, intellect, and compassion to be rabbis, but that doesn’t mean it’s in keeping with Jewish law or even a good thing. Only time will tell.
So many of these comments from the men reveal nothing but sheer sexist attitudes. That garbage about “gender roles” is crap. Men use it to stroke their precious little egos. Men have manipulated women in society into thinking that nothing should be important to us but being pretty and having kids. The men on here make all sorts of excuses why a BS seminary is better than learning from the sources. The problem with that is the seminaries are teaching garbage that isn’t even in the Torah like most of this tznius crap.
You men have women sounding like airheads because you brainwash them then you say that women are airheads.
Why do some women put up with this?
Yes, we are aware you do not believe in gender roles. We are also aware that you then castigate anyone who does believe in gender roles- making you a bigot. A bigot is “a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” You are intolerant of my belief in gender roles, since you castigate me based on it.
You conflate “airhead” with “ignorant”.
Indeed our women, and your women, and your women rabbis, (and many of your men rabbis), are ignorant. This is as it should be, since women have no commandment to learn for the sake of learning, but only in order to know how to fulfill. One does not have to learn gemara to know how to fulfill.
We do not complain about their ignorance. I complain when the ignorant serve in rabbinic roles as if they are learned.
Someone showed me an article, which I am reading, and does explain both the “geirus” issue and the “centralization” issue.
It also explains much more.
https://ajop.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/pdfs/adlerstein54-60.ami039.moder.pdf
I agree with Dan overall, perhaps would quarrel with a few minor details, but overall he is correct.
Additionally, within the orthodox world in which I live, the women are very educated, accomplished, respected, and Torah observant. They are fulfilled in their lives despite not being allowed to become Rabbas, not getting aliyot, not dancing with the Torah, etc….
Dan’s point about the Devorah and “once in a thousand years” is absolutely correct. I’m pretty sure Sara Hurwitz should not be compared to Devorah, as I should not be compared to the Chofetz Chaim, or Ya’akov Avinu.
I strongly believe that if Sara Hurwitz was a responsible professional clergyman (person, woman, whatever….), she would be more stringent with covering her hair and dressing modestly. I have seen a picture of her in the Forward newspaper where she was showing more skin than I would let my daughter show, and I give my daughter some leeway to express her individuality. Likewise, I don’t want to see my Rav in a polo shirt and shorts. I can wear that, but not my Rav.
The first woman “Rabbi”, in my humble opinion, should set the bar high, not low.
it could be that she is wearing a “hat fall” and that the exposed curly hair you see is in fact a sheitl under a hat.
maybe, but probably not.
Ok, in reading more carefully, I would strongly disagree with Dan’s point about women being ignorant. I am hoping it didn’t come out the way he truly intended.
Which one?
That these women are ignorant?
Or that women are supposed to be ignorant?
If anyone has been fortunate enough to know truly brilliant talmidot chachamot – Tzipora Heller, Erica Brown & Shira Smiles immediately come to mind but there are others – they are already providing the sort of “leadership” role that Sara Hurwitz mentions as chaplain counselors; in advising women according to halacha about “intimate” issues; as role models for women; in giving shiurim; in their knowledge of halacha and (gasp!) gemara. Yet for some reason these women do not seek the “rabba” title nor do they have a need for this recognition – yet they are completely respected and admired even lacking this rabba title. So why is the “rabba” title deemed necessary? It seems more of a political move to me.
It’s wonderful that you are getting ideas from this piece of writing as well
as from our dialogue made at this place.