Dear Heshy,
Let me start off by commending you on creating one of my favorite websites and a place I can go to escape the ever-so-prevalent bullshit in our culture. No more bullshit! Kudos.
I am 23, male, single, and a virgin. Being Shomer Negiah was a choice I made when I was about 12, under the assumption that when I was in my late teens or early 20’s I would get my own place, get a stable job, and find my bashert with ease and with Divine help (after all, seeing I held off on sex through my teens would be a huge incentive for G-d to throw my soul-mate my way, right?). Wow, truly the decision to be Shomer was that of a boy, not a man.
My life now is very different from what I envisioned it would be 10 years ago, and I don’t have to tell you, I’m sure you sympathize, but a man gets lonely and a look at the circumstances makes you feel desperate. Every human being needs love, whether or not it is in the context of a sexual relationship.
After doing much soul-searching and research, as well as taking into account how unpopular Shomer Negiah is purported to be among our generation, a new paradigm for approaching abstinence has come into my conscious thought. I call it “Shomer Ahavah.” What this concept means is this: I am not Shomer Negiah, and I am also not NOT Shomer Negiah. It’s not about physical touch anymore, because the focus is no longer getting some quick play and getting one’s rocks off. The focus is a mature, loving relationship with another like-minded person. Thus, being Shomer Ahavah means I am aware of HOW I FEEL toward another person before I make my decision about physical contact, whatever it may be.
I think Shomer Ahavah, if it catches on, will eventually complement and replace Shomer Negiah, because while SN may have worked a little bit when you are a teenager in NCSY, we’re f—ing grown-ups now, and playing it up to be like a child’s kissing game is just so juvenile, and doesn’t give adults credit for their maturity and higher-level thinking. This isn’t 6th Grade, and we aren’t talking about playing spin the bottle at a sleepover. This is adult life, and love is a basic need, whether or not physical touch is deemed to be. That is a call every MATURE, THINKING ADULT must make for him- or herself.
Kol tuv, Heshy!
Keep up the gevaldicke zachen, and if you’d like to reprint this on FrumSatire, you have my blessing.
-Anonymous
My response: Although I appreciate your kind words and will encourage you to keep reading my blog I cannot let such drek, such narashkeit, such foolish anti-halachic rhetoric pass through my airspace without displaying any rage. I bet you would also support the gays right to marry, because after all they need that basic love, would you also support a kleptomaniac’s right to steal because it’s his basic need. How can you justify going against halacha for basic needs. Did you know the term shomer negiah is merely an invention by the modern orthodox kiruv world to justify their entire existence. Shomer negiah is not a choice, just because you feel horny because you are so far removed from the beis medrish that you don;t even know what this weeks parshah is doesn’t give you a right to make a mockery of blatant halacha. It clearly states in the shulchan aruch, the aruch hashulchan, the tur, chayei adam and mishna brura that touching members of the opposite sex is always forbidden unless you are trying ti have children.
Don’t even get me started on this concept of love, love is a goyishe zach and must not be confused with marriage for the purpose of pru-rivu. Love is a fairy tale, this is the cause of the shidduch crisis and with love you will get nowhere. Love ismost definitely not in our mesorah, do you think Rav Moshe or Rav Yaakov loved their wives when they wed,m how could they? But those relationships worked out pretty well, hence love is not something to strive for. Making these excuses that you feel gripped by the yetzer harah who convinced you that you were lonely when all you needed was torah to fill your time.
You are a shame to society, you will bring the mabul sooner and I suggest you get married quick before the mabul comes so you will not have to resort to illicit animal relationships in the ark.
By the way I approached this topic in a post called Tachlis with Benefits
I am 23, male, single
23 is a little young to feel like your life should have been different, that you should have been married by now. Give yourself some more time.
That doesn’t mean that I disagree with your idea of Shomer Ahava. Sounds like a great idea. Adults shouldn’t have to deprive themselves, but it’s also unhealthy to sleep around randomly.
“I am 23, male, single
23 is a little young to feel like your life should have been different, that you should have been married by now. Give yourself some more time.”
Agreed.
“but it’s also unhealthy to sleep around randomly” unless genital herpes is your idea of fun.
“but it’s also unhealthy to sleep around randomly.”
He said very clearly that he wants a relationship.
Anyway… I thought every FFB had parents who could somehow support all of their children as married adults so come on, get married…
How DO they do that anyway?
I like your “shomer ahava” concept. I like–very very much–your attempt to free yourself of the “do it this way or don’t do anything at all” rigidity that so often characterizes the halakhic world and to discover that you can have kedusha in your life even if you do not hew to a extremely punctilious approach to an issue like SN. I believe rabbis in much of the halakhic world are *failing* to speak to this issue. Their message to people like you is “if you’re not SN you might as well be a promiscuous behema” and it’s an asinine message. I love your terminology of “Shomer Ahava.”
In an incredibly foolish decision, they did not make the document available for free online, but for a very modest donation I highly commend to you this document–“This is My Beloved, This is My Friend: A Rabbinic Letter on Intimate Relations” by R. Elliot Dorff. It does not, perhaps predictably emerge from Orthodoxy but I would greatly encourage you to read it. I think you’ll find in it a real analysis of precisely your own journey and considerations.
Ah–here’s version 1.0.
This post is just as you call it- narishkeit. Dude, if you don’t want to be shomer negiah, that is your choice. You cannot change wht shomer negiah is and that’s it.
Heshy to make a comment on your note, it may or may not be that R” Yaakov or R’Moshe did not love their wives when they married. At least, they had some kind of common ground and mostly likely, on that platform the grew to love each other.
There is no such thing as “love at first sight.” True love grows and is cultivated overtime.
So, Mr. Anonymous, may be it is time for you to start that look for your beshert to cure your loneliness.
“So, Mr. Anonymous, may be it is time for you to start that look for your beshert to cure your loneliness” because getting a reputation as a player will only hurt you in the long run.
Actually the double standards of the secular community flow real well in the frum community, a slut is always a slut, but a player who frums out is someone who went through some rough times.
Why am I getting ads for “s*xy arab girls” when reading this post?
haha! i was wondering the same thing…
I even got a text from someone telling me that they were super funny
Personally, arab chicks don’t do it for me. Besides, I’m happily married for 17 years.
Seems my posts are hanging in moderation but no one else’s are. Sound check 1. . .2. Sound check 1 . . .2. Is this thing on?
Rats–this one went right through. Heshy–if you’re reading this are posts I sent earlier hanging somewhere or are they gone?
Sometimes the lengthier ones end up in moderation for a while, but I don’t know why it would take this long.
They go into spam until Hesh checks it… but there are a bunch of words that trigger it too… like
$
e\
x
that whole idea is quite stupid. come on man, it sounds like you are just trying to justify to yourself that physical contact is ok to make you feel less guilty about not controlling yourself.
listen, you arent the first, and wont be the last, non married 23 year old frum male. And as has been pointed out above, shomer negiah isnt a choice any more than being shomer shabbos is. Its not a concept built for teenagers or elementary school and its not a hobby that people do for kicks during their year+ in Israel. Its straight halacha. You can argue whether its d’oraisa or d’rabanan (i believe most agree its probably the former), but its just as much halacha as anything else.
I dont judge people that arent, people can do whatever they want, but dont try to justify it or to make it sound like its just a fad or not halacha in some way. It is. If you dont want to follow it, thats up to you, but dont go on as if its some epidemic that has been rapidly spread over time because “people arent mature enough to control themselves” or some other ridiculousness. It seems pretty clear that YOU are the one exhibiting a lack of maturity and self control. The “decision” on physical contact is pretty simple – follow halacha or not. Don’t make it something its not
So much easier for us frumgays. No negiah rules apply. Tee hee.
See, I disagree. I believe we need to formulate a response to s*xually active g a y Jews as well. That response may perhaps begin from the statement that the activity is itself assur. But it must then go beyond that to say, “if you are so active anyway despite it being assur, understand it does not excuse you to behave like a behema without regard for yourself, your partners, God or Torah. Casual, meaningless, promiscuous, anonymous, exploitative, or other undesireable behaviors and encounters are *still* not ok. You’re going to get “married” and adopt kids? Ok, we think that’s completely assur *but* we *still* don’t accept you inter”marrying” and raising those kids outside of a Torah lifestyle.”
heshy, your response sounds like it was fun to write.
as far as r’ yaakov and r’ moshe obviously not being in love with their wives, after all they were r’ yaakov and r’ moshe, that reasoning reminds me of a dvar torah from parshas vayeteh. how do we know that yaakov avinu wore a streimel? because it says clearly in the pasuk, “vayetzeh yaakov m’be’er sheva vayelech charanah” do you think that yaakov avinu would have traveled all the way from be’er sheva to charan without his striemel!?! obviously, he wore his streimel!
It was all much easier when people married when they hit puberty. I do not believe we are meant to go through 10+ years of shomer negiah hell.
Of course, in order to get married sooner, we have to actually grow up before we are 40. And too few people manage it.
OTOH, as a married man, I think Shomer Negiah makes a lot of sense: my wife and I are careful not to touch *other* people of the opposite sex.
Agreed and agreed!
Wow that was a classic response! lol “love is a goyishe zach!” that’s awesome!!!!
also, heshy, you get a lot of use from that pic!
At least every 6 months. I am at least glad that you can’t see most of the girl’s face.
they are probably both grandparents already….
m,uch more often than that – I can;t find a better one – all the other ones of frum folks getting it on are of the nude variety and I won;t post that stuff here
Well, I guess my comments aren’t gonna go up. Maybe they’ll show up later. Here’s version 2.0. I respect what the author is struggling with and his attempt to develop a personal ethic of “shomer ahava.” For too many the only message the halakha observing world is willing to give is “be punctiliously shomer or you might as well be a promiscuous slut because there is no moral distinction between what the author describes and licentious and at worst exploitative hedonism that respects neither self nor other nor God nor Torah.” The author’s challenge to our world is to interrogate that message. Can it be that Torah is incapable of any more subtlety than that? Is it possible that it is impossible to separate out from what God and Torah wants from us values within a non-SN life that remain operative even for a person who has chosen to “transgress” the restriction of intimacy to marriage? These relationships are not and cannot be kiddushin, but what of other principles? Honesty. Integrity. Kvod Habriyot. Can such a person seek degrees of kedusha in his/her life and specifically in his/her intimate relationships or is the message from a rabbi representing our tradition to be, “it doesn’t matter what you do. You are a sinner.”
I refer the author and anyone else interested to one effort to take this challenge on and try to address it in a serious way. The (Conservative) Rabbinical Assembly tried many years ago to address what I think are precisely this author’s concerns. Specifically, once we articulate that Jewish tradition and Halakha (which we all agree is the same thing) absolutely reserves sexuality for the sanctity of marriage, is there then nothing at all we can say to the community of not yet married (or previously married) people who care what we and Jewish tradition says but is nevertheless sexually active to some extent from casual contact to holding hands to making out to “actual” sex. The result of that attempt is a publication called This Is My Beloved, This Is My Friend: A Rabbinic Letter on Intimate Relations by R. Elliot Dorff. Stupidly, the RA has not made it available for free online but rather sells it for $2.50.
Well, I guess my comments aren’t gonna go up. Maybe they’ll show up later. Here’s version 2.0. I respect what the author is struggling with and his attempt to develop a personal ethic of “shomer ahava.” For too many the only message the halakha observing world is willing to give is “be punctiliously shomer or you might as well be a promiscuous slut because there is no moral distinction between what the author describes and licentious and at worst exploitative hedonism that respects neither self nor other nor God nor Torah.” The author’s challenge to our world is to interrogate that message. Can it be that Torah is incapable of any more subtlety than that? Is it possible that it is impossible to separate out from what God and Torah wants from us values within a non-SN life that remain operative even for a person who has chosen to “transgress” the restriction of intimacy to marriage? These relationships are not and cannot be kiddushin, but what of other principles? Honesty. Integrity. Kvod Habriyot. Can such a person seek degrees of kedusha in his/her life and specifically in his/her intimate relationships or is the message from a rabbi representing our tradition to be, “it doesn’t matter what you do. You are a sinner.”
Finally got the whole thing to post–sorry for the confusion in what I’ve posted–turns out I just had to clean up my f o u l language. It’s posted as a unit down below.
I refer the author and anyone else interested to one effort to take this challenge on and try to address it in a serious way. The (Conservative) Rabbinical Assembly tried many years ago to address what I think are precisely this author’s concerns. Specifically, once we articulate that Jewish tradition and Halakha (which we all agree is the same thing) absolutely reserves sexuality for the sanctity of marriage, is there then nothing at all we can say to the community of not yet married (or previously married) people who care what we and Jewish tradition says but is nevertheless sexually active to some extent from casual contact to holding hands to making out to “actual” s e x. The result of that attempt is a publication called This Is My Beloved, This Is My Friend: A Rabbinic Letter on Intimate Relations by R. Elliot Dorff. Stupidly, the RA has not made it available for free online but rather sells it for $2.50.
I refer the author and anyone else interested to one effort to take this challenge on and try to address it in a serious way. The (Conservative) Rabbinical Assembly tried many years ago to address what I think are precisely this author’s concerns. Specifically, once we articulate that Jewish tradition and Halakha (which we all agree is the same thing) absolutely reserves s e xuality for the sanctity of marriage, is there then nothing at all we can say to the community of not yet married (or previously married) people who care what we and Jewish tradition says but is nevertheless s e xually active to some extent from casual contact to holding hands to making out to “actual” s e x. The result of that attempt is a publication called This Is My Beloved, This Is My Friend: A Rabbinic Letter on Intimate Relations by R. Elliot Dorff. Stupidly, the RA has not made it available for free online but rather sells it for $2.50.
Well, I guess my comments aren’t gonna go up. Maybe they’ll show up later. Here’s version 2.0. I respect what the author is struggling with and his attempt to develop a personal ethic of “shomer ahava.” For too many the only message the halakha observing world is willing to give is “be punctiliously shomer or you might as well be a promiscuous slut because there is no moral distinction between what the author describes and licentious and at worst exploitative hedonism that respects neither self nor other nor God nor Torah.” The author’s challenge to our world is to interrogate that message. Can it be that Torah is incapable of any more subtlety than that? Is it possible that it is impossible to separate out from what God and Torah wants from us values within a non-SN life that remain operative even for a person who has chosen to “transgress” the restriction of intimacy to marriage? These relationships are not and cannot be kiddushin, but what of other principles? Honesty. Integrity. Kvod Habriyot. Can such a person seek degrees of kedusha in his/her life and specifically in his/her intimate relationships or is the message from a rabbi representing our tradition to be, “it doesn’t matter what you do. You are a sinner.”
I refer the author and anyone else interested to one effort to take this challenge on and try to address it in a serious way. The (Conservative) Rabbinical Assembly tried many years ago to address what I think are precisely this author’s concerns. Specifically, once we articulate that Jewish tradition and Halakha (which we all agree is the same thing) absolutely reserves s e xuality for the sanctity of marriage, is there then nothing at all we can say to the community of not yet married (or previously married) people who care what we and Jewish tradition says but is nevertheless s e xually active to some extent from casual contact to holding hands to making out to “actual” s e x. The result of that attempt is a publication called This Is My Beloved, This Is My Friend: A Rabbinic Letter on Intimate Relations by R. Elliot Dorff. Stupidly, the RA has not made it available for free online but rather sells it for $2.50.
Finally I also reject the casual disdain for and dismissal of the author’s motivations. Heshy satires and parodies it well. You’re not SN? Obviously it’s because you are spiritually weak and have no control over your “urges” and are little better than an animal in the jungle. But this author is not talking about rutting around with anything that moves like an undiscerning beast in heat. He is talking about the “urge” observed by God in Gan Eden: Lo tov heyot ha-adam levado. The author, along with countless others in and out of the Jewish and Halakha observing world–young/single people everywhere, really– is struggling with this issue because a life without intimacy is not human. That is the view of Rabbinic Jewish tradition growing out of this foundational observation of the earliest chapters of B’reishit. This pasuk is not halakhically “docheh” the restriction of intimacy to marriage and no one should argue that it is. But give the author some credit. He’s not looking for a “heter.” He’s looking for some kedusha in his intimate relationships even if there is not a blanket heter for them.
People like to laugh about “t’fillin dates.” This author is talking about something far more thoughtful than that (in fact, in the model he is getting at such a casual one night stand would clearly violate “shmirat ahava”).
“The author, along with countless others in and out of the Jewish and Halakha observing world–young/single people everywhere, really– is struggling with this issue because a life without intimacy is not human.”
There are many people who have chosen life-long celibacy (including myself). I’d hesitate to call their lives “not human.”
Ok. Let’s go with not ideal and for many truly incompatible with health–a bit like choosing lifelong fasting. There is no such thing in halacha as a person forbidden from marrying–not the kohen gadol, not a mamzer, not anyone. A life without intimacy is not the life envisioned by Jewish tradition as ideal. That’s why I struggle with the plight of gay people, and perhaps though in a different way with long term unmarried adults.
No one could live for very long without food, but many people (despite what you believe) live happy, fulfilled lives without marriage or intimate relations outside marriage. Besides, as people get older, s*xual desire diminishes or even disappears, and that aspect of life fades in importance.
Advocating the value of a s*xless life is surely no more “legitimate” from the perspective of Jewish tradition than seeking to make some accomodation to intimate relationships (or hand holding) outside of marriage. I stand by my comment–there is no person or group of people to whom Jewish tradition has ever said “do not marry.” I do not believe such a position is compatible with normative Jewish beliefs or tradition.
“I do not believe such a position is compatible with normative Jewish beliefs or tradition.”
You are correct – in fact it is 100% anti-judaism as the torah explicitly states the mitzvah of pru urvu several times. In fact, the story of Aaron and Miriam speaking lashon harah about Moshe Rabbeinu was regarding this very matter, as HKBH told Moshe to separate from his wife due to his need to be ready to speak with HKBH at any time. Notwithstanding the outcome whereby Miriam contracted tzaraas, she is regarded as having a legitimate beef with Moshe’s actions due to its incompatibility with the Torah and Judaism
actually jeremiah was told not to marry.
I’ve never called it shmirat ahava before but, as a single MO woman, I would say that’s pretty much the principle that guides the actions of many (but definitely not all of the) single MO men and women that I know. Most of them would not label themselves as shomer negiah, eagerly hug their friends of the opposite sex and shake hands with no qualms in professional settings. Sex excluded, everything within the context of a relationship is fair game. But random hook-ups? Completely socially inappropriate.
I definitely think that no matter how much people protest about it being halachically incorrect, this phenomenon is pretty prevalent.
socially inappropriate but totally cool as long as you only tell your same sex friends. Find the post I put up about the difference between Jdate and Frumster.
nope can’t find it
Right. And Rabbis insist on making themselves and Torah irrelevant to all of you, leaving you to navigate and make it up as you go.
I think its ridiculous when fire safety officials tell you to expressly not use an elevator in case of a fire but dont tell you what to do if you purposely took the elevator anyway. Insane! they leave you to navigate and figure it out on your own.
Ive also been personally incensed at the fact that when my mother told me to not go outside in the cold without a jacket as a child, lest i catch a cold, she never told me what to do if i decided to go out in the snow in shorts and a t shirt.
Another thing that really gets me peeved is that while we strongly advocate not driving drunk, we do nothing to educate society on what a drunk should do if he decides to get behind the wheel. Why dont we have any drunk driving teach-ins and seminars or drunk drivers ed to educate drunks on how to drive if they decide they cant control themselves and get behind the wheel anyway.
Exactly my point. It is precisely this attitude that makes Judaism irrelevant for so many. It is a shame that it has become the dominant form of Halakhic Judaism in the modern period.
i believe reform started under that same logic
Really? Have you studied history even a little bit (of course you haven’t! Who needs “history” when you can have “beliefs?”)? What statements from the original Reformers in the mid 1800’s in Europe can you quote to support this “belief” of yours? I don’t recall “keeping Halakha relevant” to have been their concern, but maybe I’m forgetting something?
BTW, as a student of history you’re undoubtedly familiar with it but to help in your search, you might go to The Jew in the Modern World edited by Paul Mendes-Flohr and Jehuda Reinharz, the classic collection of primary documents from modern Jewish history. As you no doubt know, there’s lots of actual material presented there to document just exactly what was actually on the Reformers’ minds as well, of course, as those like SR Hirsch who were responding to them.
I’m not talking about long winded manifestos about the core beliefs etc behind reform. Simply the idea of “adjusting” judaism to “make it relevant” to the masses, as opposed to adjusting oneself to adhere to halacha. The whole idea of actively teaching how to do 90% instead of 100%. You complain that orthodox leaders today dont work to create an environment where you can still be a good Jew by knowingly and actively not doing 100%. Thats EXACTLY what the logic underlying reform was when you take out all the fancy language. Why should we foster an environment whereby you come out and say that its ok to do something wrong as long as its not super wrong. and again, its all about perspective, this is all directed at the already frum community. How can you vilify rabonim for not making judaism “easier” or more palatable for people who are already frum. There is no “good job guys, now you can go take a break from a few of these rules if you want to”. Halacha doesnt need to change because frum people think its too hard. Hey if youre trying to be mekarev people, either non observant or semi observant, thats one thing. But this whole thing is directed at the totally observant.
The idea of telling the already observant that they dont need to follow everything to still be a good jew is exactly what was underlying the reform movement.
Quote someone. Anyone. “This is what they’re saying if you take away the language they used?” That doesn’t mean anything other than “I’m not quoting anyone because I can’t because they didn’t actually say what I’m saying they said.”
It actually occurs to me it’s just the same problem–essentially, why should I bother dealing with what they actually said (all that fancy language! “Long winded manifestos.” Who wants to actually read that stuff?!) when I can present my beliefs about what they said that I heard second hand from someone. How about we do that with Torah study? Let’s not waste time wading through a lengthy Tosafot (long winded manifestos) to see what they said–that’s too hard. Better to just have beliefs about what they meant that we heard second hand from someone else.
You are right, I dont know the quotes, but I do know the history, Ive taken several classes that covered it. The quotes dont matter, thats the point. Are you going to tell me that I’m wrong? that reform didnt try to do that? How would you describe reform in one sentence? Its easy to hide behind all that you have read and all the theories and everything. I havent read all the works of Karl Marx but I know the basic idea of communism. Not being well read in a particular subject doesnt mean you dont get the basic idea behind the concept.
How would you describe reform in a sentence?
Instead of answering anything i said in the post, you just went on about how i dont know what reform is because i cant give exact quotes.
seems to me you dont have a valid answer, you just got heated because you dont like being compared to reform, probably because as well-read as you are in it, you notice several differences in how you lead your life and their philosophy. That may be true, but that doesnt change the fact that the concept of catering to the masses to make things “easier” or “more relevant” is an anti-orthodox judaism concept, and is something other denominations, in one way or another, have all followed.
you can tell me im wrong because so and so in such and such book talks about how reform or conservative or whatever is REALLY about XYZ, and that all the halachos they threw to the curb were just a byproduct. Maybe, but thats still, at its core, an idea of catering to those who dont want to do as much but still want to identify as the same caliber jew.
Dude, Reform’s origins are not in some effort to keep halakhic Judaism relevant to the lives of real people like the MO commenter here. Reform decided in the aftermath of the Haskalah that Halakha was fundamentally irrelevant and not binding in any way–it was a historical anachronism and an impediment to Enlightened life. There was no need to struggle with accomodating Halakha with modernity–that wasn’t the point. You “took classes?” That’s nice, but your presentation of what Reform was all about is just factually wrong on the merits. Maybe the classes weren’t very good?
About those “classes that covered it,” I have a question. In “covering it,” did you actually not have to read anything written or said by the Reformers? Did you look at the transcripts of any of their meetings or debates? How is it possible that after “several classes that covered it” you were never exposed to those “long winded manifestos?” What kind of “class” is that? And how could you hope to understand what SR Hirsch is all about in the first place if you don’t study and understand the people to whom he was responding? You can bet *he* was familiar with the “long winded manifestos!”
“Early Reform in Germany was not a negative movement. On the contrary, it had the positive aim of stemming the tide of apostasy, declaring that Judaism still had the power of truth to hold its adherents, if only some of the Jewish institutions were recast and the religion reformed so as to make less marked the difference between the Jew and his Gentile neighbor”
-The Jewish Religion: A Companion, published by Oxford University Press.
Happy now?
“Happy now?” Sure. First of all, that’s a secondary source not a primary source, but whatever. It supports my position, not yours. Specifically, it doesn’t in any way support your contention that anything in my comments about Halakhic Judaism being and remaining “relevant” to a non-SN but otherwise halakhically engaged community has anything to do with classical Reform’s effort to, as your source puts it, “make less marked the difference between the Jew and his Gentile neighbor” which I would agree is a fundamental driver of Reform. That’s why Reform dumps Halakha–it gets in the way of that goal. You said what I had written was what led to Reform. Where in anything I wrote is there an effort to dump Halakha as a no longer operative historical anachronism in order to advance the goal of “making less marked the difference between the Jew and his Gentile neighbor?” Answer: Nowhere. That has nothing to do with anything I’ve been talking about. You just like throwing around “you’re like the Reform” as a nifty way to deligitimize someone with whom you disagree.
you know it would help if you actually read what i wrote so you wouldnt be talking out of your backside. Ive never said that what you had written had led to reform. I said its the same thinking – altering halacha (which would include disposing of it) to cater to people who find it too burdensome for whatever reason (whether in general or in an effort to blend in with gentiles, either way)
“Ive never said that what you had written had led to reform. I said its the same thinking. . .” Same thing. And though I can appreciate your backtracking, you’re still wrong. One wonders how many times I’ll tell you to read yourself–I have not advocated altering halacha . . . to cater to people who find it too burdensome.” You continue to respond to phantoms. One begins to wonder whether the classes you say you took were fine but the weakness lay with the student. It’s hilarious that you say I haven’t read what you wrote and am talking out of my backside. Orwell would be impressed.
And no, what I’ve suggested is nothing in any way like “disposing of” halacha. That’s where you’re wrong. And now if you’ll excuse me I have to print my d’var torah for shul tomorrow before shabbos so I can get to my sister and brother in law’s house for shabbat dinner.
you know it would help if you actually read what i wrote so you wouldnt be talking out of your backside. Ive never said that what you had written had led to reform. I said its the same thinking – altering halacha (which would include disposing of it) to cater to people who find it too burdensome for whatever reason (whether in general or in an effort to blend in with gentiles, either way)
Last thought–this equation you draw between what you call “altering” halacha (and yes, I do think of what I’m discussing more as “kiruv” than an altering of halacha) and “disposing of it,” there are countless examples I could use but a little over 1000 years ago Rabbenu Gershom issues his famous takkana ending the practice of polygamy. By your logic this guy is no different and no less a “Reformer” than Moses Mendelsohn (whom you’ve no doubt studied in your “classes”). In fact, given that his primary motivation is to lessen the then embarrassing difference between prevailing Jewish practice and that of the surrounding culture, it seems he is even seeking to “make less marked the difference between the Jew and his Gentile neighbor.” If you’re right that “altering” and “disposing” are the same then Reform is looking pretty traditional.
Most guys, myself included, even within a relationship, don’t want touch for intimacy. We want it because we’re horny and we can’t stop ourselves and we’ll usually push to go as far as we can until stopped.
I started off my teenage years being shomer, but by the time i was 18 i was so frustrated that i gave it up. I’m still a virgin, but enjoyed lots of making out…on occasion even letting the guy go to 3rd base. And now, 2 years later, i regret it. I feel like i cheated myself of the chance to have my 1st physical relationship be with my husband. I’m a “used model” now. I wish i had thought of this when I was hooking up with a guy in the backseat of his car.
“I wish i had thought of this when I was hooking up with a guy in the backseat of his car.” Again, probably not something that would have been consistent with the author’s “shmirat ahava.” So you went from shomer to hooking up. What if there had been a clear message like what the author advocates. “You’re not going to be SN? Here are some parameters to guide you in what you *are* going to be?” Might a message like that have been helpful to an adolescent you making decisions about your own behavior and intimate relationships?
the level at which this “shomer ahava” ridiculousness would need to be at for the physical contact to become “ok” in some way conceivably shouldnt be any different than the level at which 2 people would decide to get married, so all arguments about man not meant to be alone and all that other stuff still remain in the context of marriage. How can you (or anyone) argue for the allowance of intimate relationships of love that feature spiritual, mental and physical intimacy outside the context of marriage if thats exactly what marriage is?!? Why wouldnt you just get married??
listen, if you wanted to argue for allowing physical contact in the context of a 1 night stand or something short-term, while clearly anti-yahadus, its at least a more logical argument to make than to argue to allow for what is basically marriage just without a ring and a kesubah.
“How can you (or anyone) argue for the allowance of intimate relationships . . .outside the context of marriage.” Read it again. I did not argue for “allowance.” I wrote: “This pasuk is not halakhically “docheh” the restriction of intimacy to marriage and no one should argue that it is.”
D’oh!
its not halachically dochech it because its not referring to anything other than a metaphysical concept. You can use your logic for anything not allowed halachically – when psukim speak of eating meat or drinking wine, the statement advising as such is not halachically docheh shchitah or stam yeynum either, that doesnt mean you can eat neveilah or tarfus or drink stam yeynum.
man is not meant to be alone, very true. thats what marriage is for. The halachic way of man not being alone is via marriage. just like the halachic way of man eating food is to eat kosher food. just like the halachic way of man earning a living is not through stealing and not from working on shabbos. Just because an idea or concept is brought down, doesnt mean you infer what is halachically allowed or not allowed from that – you keep reading and look to where the rules are enunciated.
There is no disagreement here with anything I wrote. The question is whether a Halakhic authority and Rabbi has anything at all to say to people who are observing something a little less than “everything.” What say you to my example of the guy who says I observe shabbat but I’m not careful about kli sheni? Forget it you might as well ignore shabbat altogether then? Because if we have nothing to say to the not married person who is not shomer beyond, “fine then you can’t control your urges and you might as well just be a promiscuous sl u t,” that is essentially what we are doing and it is not the right approach in my opinion for many reasons.
“the level at which this “shomer ahava” ridiculousness would need to be at for the physical contact to become “ok” in some way conceivably shouldnt be any different than the level at which 2 people would decide to get married. . .” Really? This can maybe be argued for “having s e x,” but what of having something less than s e x? Holding hands? Kissing? Hugging? Are you sure that the degree of “love” in a relationship to “justify” a kiss is no different from that to “justify” s e x?
Let’s take it out of s e x. Is someone who is shomer shabbat but not careful about kli sheni no different from someone who ignores shabbat entirely?
first of all, it doesnt take any degree of “love” to justify any of those things – I give bro hugs and high five guys who I’m only quasi-friends with, as Im sure most people do, so outside of kissing, physical contact doesnt need to be justified with any level of “love”.
Second, the whole point of this “shomer ahavah” crap is that youve reached some level of “love” or as the author states:
-“The focus is a mature, loving relationship with another like-minded person.” – So yes, I would think that something that qualifies as such would be the kind of thing that, at the very least, would be something on the road to marriage, in which case man up and stick it out like everyone else does, or alternatively dont be shomer, just dont try to act as if its some invalid scheme made up by evil rabbis.
third, your comparison to shabbos and kli sheni is invalid for several reasons. A- being makpid with kli sheni is more an idea of being machmir with something that might be cooking in certain cases. shomer negiah is not a chumrah – according to many opinions (rambam for one) its d’oraisa. B- different degrees of prohibitions doesnt change the fact that you are violating a prohibition, so even if you want to say that someone not careful about kli sheni is much better than a blatant shabbos violater, that doesnt make it ok in anyway to be mechalel shabbos in a small way. its all about perspective. If you know better / have done it in the past, how can you justify no longer doing it. meaning, if you were always shomer shabbos completely and you know that you are violating something, however small, thats a lot worse than if you arent frum and starting to become frum and you keep only a bit at a time, which is clearly better than not keeping at all. IE, for someone who has always properly kept the laws of negiah, the default isnt all out promiscuity, for which scenario “only” kissing would be a step up. Rather, the default is to continue keeping the laws properly, so to say “i’m no longer going to keep the laws properly” is clearly a step down. If thats what floats your boat, then fine. Again, I dont want to judge those that arent careful about negiah, thats not my place, my problem is quotes like – “taking into account how unpopular Shomer Negiah is purported to be among our generation, a new paradigm for approaching abstinence has come into my conscious thought. I call it “Shomer Ahavah.” “-
OR
-“I think Shomer Ahavah, if it catches on, will eventually complement and replace Shomer Negiah”-
You cant just change the idea of negiah, it is what it is. shomer ahava is fancy speak for “i am going to knowingly violate hilchos negiah”. Justify it all you want with loving relationships and whatever else. That doesnt matter. Negiah is halacha AND its not like its illogical (thats right, it IS logical – the whole concept of “one thing leads to another” which is sooo soo real, deny it if you want to but it happens in all walks of life, especially in matters of intimacy and the like. ).
I mean this is crazy – negiah (bderech chibah, which is what we are talking about) is a clear cut halacha – its beyond me how anyone can try to justify how its ok min hatorah to engage in physical contact of a non-innocuous nature.
if you want to say its outdated, if you want to say its not natural, or whatever else you might want to come up with, then so be it – proper orthodox judaism isnt for you as we follow tons of stuff that qualifies for all those arguments. But dont imply that negiah is “replaceable” as a concept, as if there is room to make it ok within the context of halacha. That is clearly not the case.
You’re responding to straw men and phantoms instead of what I actually wrote, so {yawn} and see ya. I keep saying I’m not arguing to call it mutar and you keep demanding to know how anyone could argue that it could possibly be mutar. Have fun, but not with me. And BTW, get a copy and read the document I referenced. That oughta make your hair stand on end. It is possible for rabbis and the Judaism they represent to be relevant even to people who are not SN. They, and Judaism, only has to be irrelevant if they choose to make it so. If the message is “unless you’re shomer Judaism has nothing to say to you” then it is rendered irrelevant to anyone who is not shomer. It almost sounds like you *want* to drive people off the derech
The whole idea is that we shouldnt condone actions whereby people are moving away from judaism because they think its too hard. If youve been doing it until now, then clearly you are capable of doing it. I don’t want to drive anyone off the derech, but dont bastardize the religion by saying “awww you cant handle being shomer, well then its ok if you make out as long as you dont go further than that”. Thats ridiculous. If you dont want to be properly frum anymore, there arent guidelines on how to not be frum and there is no reason that there should be. This isnt a game, its a religion and a way of life. If you cant handle that way of life, then figure it out and do what feels right. Of course I wouldnt want people to just leave the religion. If you actually understood anything i said, you would see my point that we arent talking about people whose other choice is being not frum, or completely not shomer, we are talking about a concept applying to people who ARE shomer as a way for them to no longer be shomer, which is terrible. How can that be even discussed. You seem to be confusing an idea aimed as a kiruv measure vs one aimed as a loophole / excuse. This shomer ahava crap is an excuse for shomer negiah people to no longer be shomer negiah. There is no way to condone that no matter how many hebrew words one throws into his concept. Not being shomer negiah is not a basis for not following the rest of halacha – i havent addressed that point of yours because its irrelevant – its not representative of this scenario. Its as simple as following all the rules or not following all the rules. If you are going to break one, A – thats not a reason to give it all up and break others, but B- dont pretend like you did nothing wrong.
“How can that be even discussed.” How can it not be discussed? It’s happening.
I am married 16 years. I was not my wife’s first. She was involved in a long term but pre-marriage relationship before we started dating and he was her first. She was my first. It is, and always was, ok. Her having been with someone before me did not make her gift of herself to me any less real, special, or meaningful to me. Maybe you feel now that you”gave it away” too easily in the past but what matters is what you are, and what you give, *now,* not what you were or what you did in the past.
Lurker, you write, “I was not my wife’s first. She was involved in a long term but pre-marriage relationship before we started dating and he was her first. She was my first. It is, and always was, ok.”
It’s okay because she does not have gential herpes, which is NOT prevented from use of condoms.
Why do you make frequent mention of genital herpes in your comments?
Oh, I definitely agree. Any intervention that is anything less than 100% effective should not be used or advocated because they are NOT effective. For example: Seatbelts DON’T prevent injury in car crashes. Sunscreen DOESN’T prevent skin cancer. Umbrellas DON’T keep you from getting wet in the rain. Writing stuff in all caps, though, DOES prevent you from being wrong.
I had girlfriends before I married. My wife had boyfriends and had been married once before. Neither of us feels “cheated” or that we missed out on anything.
Good for you. I’m just giving my opinion on the whole thing which is that i regret hooking up. ken, if someone had said that i could have a relationship with a guy but limited physical contact or no physical contact, i would have been happy. Not having anything to do with guys goes against a teenaged girl’s nature. Being that most guys only want to get in a girl’s pants, a real relationship was not an option.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
Just saying you don’t have to beat yourself up or be angry about it. People find all sorts of ways to deal with that part of life. Most of us muddle through somehow.
Guys in that adolescent rush of hormones do have s*x on the brain. But a lot of them want more than getting their schvances wet and less than marriage.
hahaha interesting way of putting it. I hear what you’re saying, but in the “bais yaakov circle”, i would be considered a slut. Generally i dont think of myself as such, but when you constantly have that kind of crap shoved down your throat you end up believing it somewhat. but that’s a whole ‘nother issue. I’m currently dating a guy who never fooled around with girls, and when he found out that i’ve done some questionable things in the past, he was ok with it. Other guys ran the other way when they heard. you win some, you lose some. aauuuugghhhh fml!!
Be glad you found a grownup to date and that the lightweight a**holes weeded themselves out.
Oh, I definitely agree. Any intervention that is anything less than 100% effective should not be used or advocated because they are NOT effective. For example: Seatbelts don’t prevent injury in car crashes. Sunscreen doesn’t porevent skin cancer. Umbrellas don’t keep you from getting wet in the rain.
Anonymous brotha just got OWNED.
What will happen if I kiss Lord Obama?…
Won’t happen you’re too busy wrapping your lips around the Koch brothers’ cigars.
STOP CRUSHING MY DREAMS YOU DREAM CRUSHER.! You should be ashamed of yourself! Like a sahmb0000000d33333333333333333333
For those troubled but prizus ads on the web, use free adblock plugin for chrome or firefox to try and maintain some kedusha in your lives.
I barely (no pun intended) even notice the ads. They’re like nonkosher restaurants to me. People tell me to turn at some famous restaurant in the town I’ve lived in for 10 yrs and I don’t even know where it is and they don’t understand how that’s even possible. With kedusha in my life the ads are like that–they’re just background noise.
First, that 1st response was f/ing horrible. in my 40 years on earth i dont think i have ever hear such crap. We all belive in the books guy but take a chill pill. secondly- be like king solomon and have a thousand wives and that will take care of your LOVE and SEX problem.
this post is a bit older i guess, but i’d like to put in something.
i have a bit of a different philosophy. since i’m converting, i come from a very different background from most of y’all but i’d like to put this in. i grew up shaking hands with girls, hugging girls, etc., and i see nothing sexual about it and i honestly see no need to refrain from it. to me, the big thing is sex before marriage. it seems so strange that the proposed solution here is not to toss out not shaking hands, but to toss out not having sex if you know the woman well enough— to me that is patently absurd.
the shomer negiah stuff isn’t anywhere in the torah, but one thing that is is that man will leave his father and mother and become one flesh with his wife. i personally think that when you have sex with someone, it creates an unbreakable bond between you and the other person that doesn’t ever really go away, in a way you do actually become one flesh. that, to me, is the most important thing to save for marriage and it seems ridiculous to value a specific rabbinic decree that really has no practical application today over the words of the torah itself.
maybe if the shaking hands and hugging ban was thrown out, people wouldn’t get so horny and go completely off the derech. there isn’t any practical reason to ban nonsexual contact between the two sexes.
how about this— i call it shomer common sense. shaking hands and hugging is okay. kissing, only with some degree of commitment (same qualifications that OP used to justify boning), and any sexual contact (weiners and cooters, tushes and boobses) is marriage only. makes sense to me. is there anyone that agrees with me?
your response to him was so funny, it reminded me of why I began reading this blog in the 1st place, as well as the letter itself.
who are u talking to lol
This is legit. It’s what I’ve always believed in, even when I was surrounded by people who thought hooking up was totally okay. I did try being shomeret negiah for a few weeks last year, but I fell for a boy and he fell for me, but he didn’t think a shomer relationship would work, so I stopped being shomer negiah because I decided that being with him was more important.
We all have to make choices in life. We all have to balance our commitment to Judaism with other forces in our lives. And we need to learn to choose life. If being shomer negiah deprives you of the opportunity to be in a special bond with an amazing person with whom you can learn and grow, maybe it is the right decision to change. For me it was, though that doesn’t mean it would be for everyone.
Keeping to the letter of the law is not the best thing for us in every situation. If your shabbat consists of sitting in your room by yourself for 25 hours because no one else is keeping it, are you going to have a beautiful shabbat and experience the sanctification of time? Probably not.
We all need to find balance in life, and means making difficult choices. There isn’t always a right answer.
if you are referring to balancing your committent to judaism in general, thats one thing. But if you are referring to balancing your commitment to ORTHODOX judaism, well it doesnt appear that you are advocating much of balance – its not a balance at all if you are ok with knowingly violating Torah commandments.
I mean when you say “If your shabbat consists of sitting in your room by yourself for 25 hours because no one else is keeping it” – well observant/orthodox Jew wouldnt put themselves in a situation where this is the case on a regular basis and use it as a pretext to not always keeping the letter of the law.
Again, this is all in the context of orthodoxy – an orthodox, observant Jew, by definition, is observing the letter of the law in all situations (its not a matter of it being or not being the “best” thing, its the “only” thing). If you arent thats fine, but then you shouldnt consider yourself an orthodox, observant Jew.
There are a lot of reasons why someone might end up in a situation, and not always by choice. For instance, I BT home with their family, or a college student who thought their college would have more Jewish life.
And Orthodox people don’t always hold to the letter of the law. What about “lazydoxy,” wherein people skip benching and davening and such? And what about charedim who beat women for sitting in the men’s section on a bus, or who steal large sums of money? They are also violating the Torah (while claiming to follow it more closely then other people). Everybody picks and chooses. It’s a question of what you’re going to pick and choose.
Also, your post, though firm, was not angry, imflammatory, unreasonable, or bigoted, like many of the posts I’ve seen. I really appreciate that, and I wish more people would act that way. 🙂
A) I am not saying that all those people are to be considered orthodox either.
B) “Everybody picks and chooses. It’s a question of what you’re going to pick and choose.” – that is wildly incorrect, incredibly judgmental of an entire populace of whom I doubt you have even met more than 0.1%, and a terrible way to approach observance. Indeed, nobody is perfect, but there is a world of difference between actively choosing to not follow something (especially Torah prohibitions!) and following something but violating it from time to time. Sometimes I speak lashon harah, that doesnt mean that I am for it and actively choose to do it. I would venture to say I am a lot different than someone who does it knowingly because they “choose” not to follow it. Even on a larger level – someone who stole some money once, or wasnt 100% in business is a bad bad person and a terrible Jew, though I wouldnt necessarily put them in the same category as a burgler (depending on the situation of course, though I’m sure you understand my point).
C) Not all violations are the same – on a basic level Torah violations vs. Rabbinic prohibitions are not comparable in this sense. I’m not condoning any of this stuff, but someone who skips parts of davening (which doesnt violate anything specific) is a bad orthodox Jew. Someone who doesnt keep Shabbos is NOT an orthodox Jew. Rav Moshe Feinstein, followed by many many poskim, and considered the consensus opinion, defined the “lowest” level form of an observant Jew is one who keeps 3 things: Taharas Hamishpacha (which includes hilchos negiah), Kosher, and Shemiras Shabbos. Anyone 100% keeping those would be considered orthodox. If any of those arent 100% followed then that person would not qualify as orthodox / observant.
Again, not to condone other bad deeds in any way, nor to get into an ethics match (eg is it worse to steal or violate shabbos?), since modern day ethics very often don’t match with Torah-based priorities.
The whole point here being: our individual beliefs as to how good of a Jew and how good of a person one is, is irrelevant vis a vis what constitutes a person identifying as an observant, orthodox Jew, where there are clear boundaries and rules that cannot be massaged. You can do/feel/believe what you want, though if its not consistent with the orthodox approach, one cannot identify themselves as such.
“I stopped being shomer negiah because I decided that being with him was more important”
Kewt! But a completely idiotic train of thought. IF a person is truly important to be with, then you should be able to have a wonderful non-physical relationship with them. If it doesn’t work as a non-physical relationship, if you partner is pressing you to make it physical…then they don’t see you as that important.
Two friends of mine had a shomer negiah relationship. It fell apart after a few months because they lots romantic feelings/attraction for each other, and saw each other just as good friends.
dude this is totally ridiculous.
I am 16 with raging hormones in a co ed school and still manage to stay shomer habris and Shomer negiah besides the silly accidents that happen in my co ed school, sit too close to a girl or whatever, but still, i can keep the zera in and my hands off of others.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
I was 13 when i got to the worst thing besides s e x, i wasnt frum then. It doesnt feel good to have it behind you when you reach a higher level. If you already had made a couple of silly mistakes….it holds NO REASON to make another one!
in correction of the Mabul, Torah should be taught from the positive, from true Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Yisroel. We all want Moshiach NOW, wether that yearning is revealed to us or not. Join the club, because sometimes, the best way to beat the system is to be it’s most faithful adherent.
Dude,
Your opinion represents a large minority of us “modern orthodox” caught in the cross fire between leading a frum lifestyle and wishing to have relationships. I have the same view as you. One thing, I believe that sex should be reserved for only one person, your spouse. And only once you’re married. But I agree that in this day and age, whilst we tend to be very careful not to assimilate through strict adherence to halachah, I believe that shomer negia can often be a weight sometimes too heavy to bare, especially for those of us who did not grow up with it, yet still kept shabbes, kashrus etc.
Is it better to relax this particular rule on the basis of keeping “Shomer Ahava”, rather than run the risk of throwing the towel in altogether????
Of course no Rav in his right “halachic” mind would ever agree… but surely it is best to observe as much as you possibly can , like perhaps keeping negia once your married etc… and shomer ahava beforehand, with no pre-marital sex ofcourse….
Negia may be easier for those who have grown up with it, (not in every case obviously…) but it is certainly harder for those who “chose” it in their teens….
I hear you bro…
once i told a girl in school that my wife and i are very boring with each other and im looking for new insights and if she could help me out and things went really well
Here is my story. I was a zealously obedient Bais Yaakov girl for most of my young life. I wanted to do what was right, and my whole life I had been taught that holding a boy’s hand is a sin any decent girl should sooner die than commit.
When I started dating, I was completely shomer negiah. I quickly learned that to be shomer negiah in a real romantic relationship took inhuman strength, especially when a guy I really liked would pressure me. I was naive enough to believe that as long as I did what Hashem wanted (which was to be completely shomer negiah until marriage), my dating life would be smooth sailing and I would quickly find my beshert and get married. I quickly learned that this was just not the case. The first time I kissed a boy, I thought, what the hell, I’m already a prostitute, so I might as well give up trying so hard to be good. That kiss was the beginning of my descent into somewhat promiscuous dating patterns. I was so weak emotionally that I was easy bait for any boy who wanted to fool around.
I am angry at bais yaakov for teaching me all about “shomer negiah”, but teaching me nothing about emotions or self respect or even basic biology. No, it’s not enough to teach just bare-bones halacha in such complex and emotionally charged subjects.
As far as the halachic ramifications of what the author terms as “shomer ahava”, I’m not sure. Maybe there is some halacha behind it that would render it a viable option, maybe there is not.
What I do know for sure though is that there is a problem with the extremely stringent all-or-nothing standard of shomer negiah that is taught in all the mainstream frum schools. Negiah is an integral part of a meaningful relationship. It is something that holds the potential for the greatest holiness, and conversely, the deepest corruption. As such, it is a subject that deserves to be discussed in its entirety and not be rendered “taboo” and “ossur until marriage”.
Who knows? Maybe my teachers were right about the whole shomer negiah thing, and I will go to hell in any case. I would would be happier in hell though if I knew that the first boy I kissed would have been the one I loved and respected, whom I thought I would one day marry, rather than a a random guy in a bar who didn’t even know my real name.
Good thing negiah is a new invention and most of the “halacha” surrounding it is not based on much of anything.
it is based on things, but like all halachos, there are different opinions…the opinion that says all forms of touching are ossur is a daas yochid. v’yesh makilim…
About negiah being a new invention – getting married later is also a relatively new invention.
So it’s like this – most religious revolutions/rebellions seems to start off with an immediate relaxing of immorality laws (think golden calf, Shabtai Tzvi), which gives you a pretty clear indication of their falseness. So too for individuals; when looked at honestly I would venture that most ‘yeridahs’ at any level are based on the person becoming somewhat less machmir in this area. Does the Zohar not state explicitly that sexual temptation is the very basis of the yetzer ha’ra; founded on our lust for immorality. This is only THE MOST important issue, with the ability to make or break everything – and we’re losing badly; as mentioned most MO singles these days don’t even think twice.
And I partly resent myself for being the one writing this, because as a single male in my 30’s all I ever think about is what I could do in order to ‘score’ with so and so – I have a list in my mind of who or what I would do should I ever go off the derech (chas veshalom lo alai ie’H). And if I were ever to somehow find out that all these chumras really are just for kids, as the original poster posited, I would be filled with a deep regret for all the ‘good times’ I missed out on over the past 10 years. After all, I’m actually quite good at genuinely connecting with someone respectfully in a beautifully intimate way, where you both eventually leave each other better off than you were before.
But perhaps I would eventually miss the intimacy and get involved with someone without that genuine feeling, thereby relating to her somewhat less as a neshama and more as a guf. And if this became a habit I could grow accustomed to the thrill of new flesh, making it almost impossible to be satisfied in a monogamous committed relationship. Fast forwarding all the way to the end of the line, which perhaps only happens to a small yet growing fraction, is the reality of broken families which ultimately results in insecure kids. I know this side of the equation all too well.