I was at a crazy bonfire in Philly for Lag Baomer and out of nowhere an old friend of a friend noticed me and we got to chatting- I made note of her descent off the derech since the last time I saw her. I based my whole opinion of her based on the fact she was wearing pants and that the last time I saw her she was wearing skirts. I then gave her a speech of mussar no less frightening then the particulars of cleanliness chapter from the mesilas yeshurim- of note because I received the same speech upon being caught on my way back from an NCSY convention in high school. I reprimanded her for her foolishness because now her shidduch chances were shot and she would have to date within the caste system designed for girls who dare to wear pants- while still being just as frum or even more frum then their fellow skirt wearers, who may only be wearing skirts to stick with their perpetual state of “social orthodoxy”
Is it just me or has the skirt become a symbol of social orthodoxy? What I mean by this, is that I think that women wearing pants has been blown way out of proportion and find that it’s largely one of those antiquated gray areas of halacha that never actually caught up with modern society. Being a gray area that everyone likes to talk about- since the whole begged- Ish argument strikes me as a farse- and I think the people who make the argument realize this.
I understand the feelings toward pants, most pants are untznius, they reveal the butt in all its glory- but skirts are the same way in many instances, yet wearing a tight skirt is way better then wearing loose pants, at least for your social status within orthodoxy. In many circles a women can be perfectly frum, yet her pants wearing state causes people to call her modern- which no matter which way you swing it- means “lax in torah lifestyle”.
My friend from Philly is having a terrible time in the shidduch field, for not only does she wear pants, but she is one of the most frum girls I know. She davens every day, keeps 100% shomer negia and has for many years, learns every day and says tehilim and the whole nine yards, including things like after brachos and benching in pizza stores which is usually copped out by busting out the whole “snack” heter. Apparently shomer negia and pants don’t mix and this is an issue.
I have friends who will only date girls who wear skirts, yet these same kids may eat non-kosher and sleep with random girls. I know plenty of dudes like this- it’s a social thing. If your wife wears pants- people talk- they say “what happened your son was so religious after his year of brainwashing in Israel?”
All is not lost however, ideally a tznius skirt is the way to go- I just think that judging women purely based on the fact they wear pants is a little much. If they are wearing tight jeans, a tank top and fail to cover their hair its one thing- but for those women who wear pants and keep halacha- including the numerous who cover their hair (cant get around this one ladies- it’s a biblical commandment) it’s all about social orthodoxy in my mind.
Now I know the comments could get violent- lets try to keep it civil.
I could be going out on a limb here (no pun intended), but I firmly believe the association of skirt-wearing with religious observance to be an American social convention, and does not necessarily apply to Israeli Orthodox (non-Chareidi) circles.
My wife had no set standard to follow, and we discussed whether she would continue to wear pants after we got married. She decided that it would look too weird (at least for our remaining time in the US before aliyah) to have her hair covered, but still wear pants. In her case, the social pressure was definitely a consideration.
Before all the marginally Orthodox start ranting, I just want to point out one thing: the Torah requires that we appoint a Rabbi for ourselves and follow that Rabbi’s modern day application of ancient laws. Now, while there are a handfull of Rabbis who are not opposed girls wearing pants, the majority of Rabbis, those that make legal rulings about 99% of the Laws we actually follow, are against pants. Just something to keep in mind. I do agree though that the importance of wearing skirts may be the result of social orthodxy.
Great post Hesh, an important issue to address!
Firstly, I feel bad for your friend. You are correct that “apparently shomer negia and pants don’t mix” and it is unfortunate that people judge based on externals like that. But it’s impossible to know what people do every minute of every day, and I guess it’s natural to make use of a sort of cultural shorthand, pants mean one thing, skirts mean another. I wish everyone took the time to get to know people on a deeper level, but when it comes to somthing like shidduchim, say, often one must resort to trivialities.
On the other hand, clothing represents the way you choose to present yourself to the world. You can be all like, “I refuse to be conventional, I will buck social norms” but nobody’s going to buy any of it. We all know what skirts are supposed to mean, and same goes for pants. By choosing to wear pants, it’s not simply a comfort or style issue, it’s also a personal statement.
As for the reason of why skirts must be worn, I admit that the beged ish argument seems a little hollow to me as well. But it’s not the only reason. Lately I’ve been thinking that it may have something to do with conditioning kids to develop their gender identity. It’s too early for me to put together my coherent thoughts on this but I’ll write more later.
For now I’ll just leave off by saying that I have been wearing only skirts for the past nine years, and while I sometimes absently miss the great feeling of jeans against my skin, I think the advantages of wearing a skirt outweigh the losses. It has to do with a kind of tzniut self-awareness, by which I mean that you can’t do everything in a skirt that you do in pants, you have to be careful of how you sit and stand and behave and it makes you more careful in your actions all the time. Second, it’s just easier for saying brachos, and let’s face it, we should be saying brachos practically all the time. I wear shorts around the house and I constantly have to run and put on a skirt when I want to eat something or to say asher yatzar or whatever. Thirdly, I think people relate to you differently as a woman and as a Jew. It’s hard to quantify but there is definately a sense of being taken more seriously and being treated with dignity and respect.
Again, great post Hesh. It’s very cool of you to care about this, being a guy and all. I hope there’s a good discussion on this one and I plan to write more after I see what others have to say.
Great comments already- as to 99% of Rabbis ruling that pants should be worn- has this issue ever been discussed??? It seems that its one of those issues that just is- but is not actually discussed.
In modern times- earlier part of last century it was ruled that men could daven in front of married women with uncovered hair- which is not allowed according to the gemara. It seems that someone could stand up for all of those that choose to be pious- yet want the freedom of pants- ever try sitting in the wind while wearing a skirt? its not too tznius to me. In fact I one time was walking up Rechov Shimon Hatzdik when two girls in front of me went into an involuntary Marilyn Monroe pose when their skirts flew up with a gust of wind- it was hilarious.
I never even thought of the gender identity- what about the fact that in many skirt wearing communities women are told to be the breadwinners while the men sit and learn- that doesn’t sound like gender identity training to me.
You kill me Hesh! Excellent rebuttal regarding gender identity. That’s a headscratcher for sure.
It just seemed to me to be a part of the obsessive gender identity conditioning that goes on for little frum girls. I think there’s a subtle (sometimes not so subtle) push for little girls toward braiding challahs and making jewelery that stays with them way into high school as they are encouraged to take it easy with the “hard” things like math and science, etc. etc. and skirts are a big part of the effort to make them very feminine and soft. I mean how many frum girls do you see wearing boxy khakhi cargo skirts with chains, leather biker jackets, and buzz cuts? It’s not just the skirt, it’s the whole girly twinset and pearls image that goes along with it, like a complete package.
But you are bang-on correct with the women as breadwinners issue. That has always baffled me and I think it’s sort of sick and twisted. I mean if you’re going to give them a little bit of the whole feminist empowerment thing, why not let them have more? Why is that okay but not to let them learn gemarah? Maybe that could be the subject of a future post!
But back to skirts…I have suffered the Marilyn Monroe problem many times on windy days. Maybe only long narrow Stevenson’s denim skirts should be allowed.
Gypsy – great response, really well put. For good or for better, people have to make snap judgments when they first meet someone new, and clothing and outer appearance contribute a lot to that. And what everything means is determined by current societal trends – that’s just how it is. Maybe wide ties were in in the 80’s, but if I wear one today, you’re going to think I’m a dork. Ergo, I’m not going to wear one.
Anyway, it’s not much of a halachic thing. Heck – pants are just as immodest for men as they are for women, we just got used to them by now. And most of us are used to pants on women too, unless you’ve never left the beis midrash for more than an hour. It’s more of a societal norm – “al tifrosh min hatzibur”.
Thanks for ranting. Great for these things to be brought up.
Loose pants are for women with lousy legs
“Why is that okay but not to let them learn gemarah? Maybe that could be the subject of a future post!”
Actually after this post I have something related to this.
Shua said-
“Anyway, it’s not much of a halachic thing. Heck – pants are just as immodest for men as they are for women, we just got used to them by now. And most of us are used to pants on women too, unless you’ve never left the beis midrash for more than an hour. It’s more of a societal norm – “al tifrosh min hatzibur”.”
Well I think that if you asked any old dude from Boro Park or Lakewood they would respond that it is a halachic thing.
I like the discussion going on here – it’s very interesting to me (a pants wearing woman in the holy community of Monsey… but then again I am only “marginally orthodox” LOL)
I enjoyed the post, I think you’re spot on with just about everything except that covering a woman’s hair is a biblical commandment. How so?
“I think that if you asked any old dude from Boro Park or Lakewood they would respond that it is a halachic thing.”
Sure, but that doesn’t make it one.
Chanie – see Numbers 5:18 and Rashi there.
It all boils down to one thing. Somewhere in the Torah it says to listen to the Rabunim; and somewhere else it says don’t where the garments of the opposite gender. Even if you might think that in this day and age pants is not a garment that has been made specifically for men, still the same rabunim that say what is kosher are telling you that they consider pants to still be in the realm of the all mens clothing stores( though many pants are made exclusively for women)
People who decide for themselves that they feel that pants are no longer a beged ish invariably are doing it for some underling reason. They most definitely are not saying to themselves that the tight fitting pants feel so much better than a loose skirt. They want to make a social statement against the social statement of what is considered normal for a person who considers themselves orthodox to be.
That being said I wrote a whole article on how when I saw someone who was wearing pants my first reaction was,”When does the nose ring and tramp stamp go on”?
Check it out”
http://collectivisticindividualism.blogspot.com/2008/05/where-has-hope-gone.html
“People who decide for themselves that they feel that pants are no longer a beged ish invariably are doing it for some underling reason.”
What is the underlying reason for a women wearing pants- is it the comfort, the ability to blend in like those men that decide to wear baseball hats instead of yarmulkes- how about the ability to run, bike ride or ski in safety. Also some people just dont like the exposure to the elements. Skirts are harder to sit around in and be tznius- always mindful of people getting a peek of your panties.
” I wrote a whole article on how when I saw someone who was wearing pants my first reaction was,”When does the nose ring and tramp stamp go on”?Check it out””
Ish, please tell me you’re kidding. As for the youth, I have no idea how to deal with the teen in my life’s behavior; I would have her tuchus in a boot camp-type summer program, this summer, if it were up to me. I remember not liking my parents’ authority, but I never was so brazen.
chanief, Monsey needs more pants-wearing women. Thank you.
As for me, yeah, it’s total social orthodoxy, and it’s total BS. That doesn’t mean I haven’t started keeping a skirt in the car with me for quick changes. Me, I’m not super-tall, so mid-length skirts tend to fall closer to my ankles, and the dudes think I’m super-frum (which is hilarious), or something. A conversation with me takes care of that.
As for asher yatzar and making a bracha, I don’t believe I need to put on a skirt (as opposed to pants) to say a bracha (but if you feel that way, good for you, and rock your skirts till the cows come home, just don’t tell me what to wear in the shul that doubles as my apartment).
“just don’t tell me what to wear in the shul that doubles as my apartment”
You know that you can save on property taxes by putting a shul in your basement?
“the comfort, the ability to run, bike ride or ski in safety. Also some people just dont like the exposure to the elements. Skirts are harder to sit around in and be tznius- always mindful of people getting a peek of your panties.”
bingo — trust me, or try wearing a kilt, they have some nice ones at utilikilts.com; bingo — how the heck do you do fun outdoors things in a skirt like ride a bike?; absofreakinlutely! (drafts suck!).
There is far too much good that needs to be done in this world for me to have to spend time thinking about how I sit. Tznius has a lot more to do with what’s inside (the heart and mind) than what you wear (which is often a reflection of what’s going on in the interior).
It’s social ick which one wouldn’t think would exist for women in orthodox Judaism, as they already have so many important responsibilities (home, education, family [and let’s not forget supporting the husbands who sit and learn all day]). And because I don’t live in a cave by myself, I now have a skirt in my car for moments when I interact with those who can’t see past one. I try to keep them as few as possible, shabbat notwithstanding.
“What is the underlying reason for a women wearing pants”
Whatever the reason is, i guarantee you it isn’t for the sake of heaven. People that wear pants are not saying to themselves, “I think this is really what God wants.”
S(b.)- yep those were the exact thoughts that were going through my head as I watched her, in pants, smoke a cigarette, with that depressed look in her eyes.
Apologize for continuing the tangent regarding head coverings, but the word “parah” in Numbers 5:18 can also be be interpreted as “loosening”a woman’s hair. not “uncovering.”
(This is in reference to the sota process the kohen would use to determine whether a woman had committed adultery.)
The Mishna Sota, Sifrei, Talmud Sota, and some of the Tosephta support the translation as loosening, not covering.
It’s also interesting to note that women head coverings were customary among Muslim and Christian women (Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Ishut 24:12).
Presumably, Jewish women would want to distinguish themselves from non Jewish women?
Further evidence that head covering is not a mitzvah stems from the fact that it is not one of the 613 mitzvahs.
Now, it might be the accepted practice among the frum to cover one’s hair, but consider also that a fancy sheitel negates most of the public benefits of head coverings . . . and that shaving one’s head — the practice among Satmar women — is uncomfortably reminscent of the practice of making a captive non Jewish woman unattractive to a prospective Jewish husband.
“You know that you can save on property taxes by putting a shul in your basement?”
Halevai! Fon dein moyl tzu Got’s oyren. lol Owning land is such an abstract concept, anyway.
It’s funny what you think is contraversial…. Geez I was expecting something far more crazy. To be honest i’m a little dissappointed. What’s the chidush here? I’m just curious. How long have you considered yourself ‘modern orthodox’? I mean to most of us MO’s this stuff is self evident from the early days of highschool
Moish- this is really not controversial at all- that facebook status just gets people to come read it- it grabbed your attention.
I have never considered myself modern orthodox- I go with the Jewish label. Maybe “neo chassid” I like that one.
Child Ish Behavior // May 27, 2008 at 10:01 am
“What is the underlying reason for a women wearing pants”
Whatever the reason is, i guarantee you it isn’t for the sake of heaven. People that wear pants are not saying to themselves, “I think this is really what God wants.”
–Actually, it is for the sake of heaven (in addition to comfort and all those other things). You have your relationship with Hashem; I have mine. Hashem and I, we’re like this :holding up index and middle finger directly next to each other:. And my end of our deal is to make sure I’m wearing something comfortable that will allow me to focus on the tasks at hand, so I can dedicate more time to making the world a better place. When I must minister to the blind (so to speak, and I’m using those terms VERY LOOSELY here), yeah, I’ll put on a skirt, but most of my work is with folks who aren’t even on the radar of those who think wearing a skirt is a social or theological necessity.
(and I tend to like your comments and I enjoy your blog, I just disagree with you vehemently on this particular issue)
“S(b.)- yep those were the exact thoughts that were going through my head as I watched her, in pants, smoke a cigarette, with that depressed look in her eyes.”
–I’m being facetious, here. Oh, you’re right. Pants are a gateway drug!!
–Seriously, I’m sorry that you weren’t thinking of asking her how she was doing, or taking action to help her have a positive Jewish experience, or a positive interaction in what could have otherwise been, based on your description of the look in her eyes, a depressing day, for her.
No, you were too busy thinking the worst, wondering when she’d get a nose ring and a tattoo. Please stay on your knowing what people do for the sake of heaven horse and leave the real work to me and my pants and people like Reb Shlomo (z”l) and Chabad and the handful of rabbonim I’ve been fortunate enough to know who had the wisdom to leave an open door, who said, “Just come; don’t worry about what you’re wearing.”
I may not have the answer, but I’m not going to stop looking for it, and I’m not going to stop reaching out and trying to be a positive in the life of a person I can reach, regardless of what anyone is wearing. But that’s me.
In the course of my growth in the world of Baal Teshuva I always snickered at the possibility that I might one day give up wearing my favorite GAP jeans. And at 28 and engaged to a YU rabbi that is perfectly okay with my jeans cements my theory that all pants all the time ain’t ever happening in my life. I can be frum and still wear pants. You know why? Cuz I stopped giving a crap about what other people thought. The hypocracy of the people that criticize pants wearers (while they sit in a corner booth at McDonalds) makes me nuts. Another good thought provoking post from Frum Satire!
If the MO would act as tzniusdik as you are all pretending pants somehow are, (basically ignoring the Shulchan Aruch and all but the most renegade rabbonim), Klal Yisroel would be far better off.
Had to comment on this. My Christian religion is very right wing and we follow the Torah with the exception of the laws that are mentioned in the New Testament as having been cleansed, and a few that are first brought up in the NT such as women not cutting their hair (I Corinthians 11). Sometimes the younger girls dress like your Hot Chanies, but definitely, wearing pants is like the last straw of leaving the church.
Great post! I absolutely love the comments…
Playing devil’s advocate here. You could say that although it is in style for women to wear pants more today than 30 years ago, there are more men wearing pants than women. If for no other reason than they have no other mode of dress ( their all the same let’s dress them the same). Even if that hypothesis is wrong and certainly in religious sephardic circles women wore loose pants back in the day ( arab countries still do etc)
it is no longer considered tzinius by most orthodox religious circles. If you are to visit or live in those neighborhoods where it would be provocative or inappropriate to wear pants, you may want to consider following the customs of that place.
s(b.):
Please don’t be offended, and please don’t think that I’m telling you what to wear, but I think it’s interesting that you feel the need to change into a skirt for certain people but don’t feel the need to put on a skirt to pray to G-d.
Ari:
Whose count of 613 are you using when you say that covering your hair is not one of them?
Also, don’t forget that Judiasm came about before Islam and Christianity! Just because Muslims practice circumcision and Christians read the Old Testament, should we stop those too? Hair coverings for women are common in many religious cultures, which to me is further evidence that it is not BS but has a real genuine meaning involving modesty and respect.
I am all for following laws of place and agree- if the laws are beyond your ability I would suggest not living in that place. Such as living in Lakewood yet wearing pants would be completely inappropriate.
I do think however that this post was written from the ideas someone in the shidduch world- one that is ridden with hypocrisy and in which they think there is a crisis- yet there is this mantra of guys not dating girls who wear pants- even if they are lax in other important areas of halacha- for instance how many girls do you know that daven at least once a day like they are supposed to?
“basically ignoring the Shulchan Aruch”
Do you have a source for this? Unfortunately I’m at work and don’t have access to a Mishnah Berurah here. The laws are brought down in Hilchos Krias Shma somewhere. As I recall, there are some unchangeable laws, and some which are based on local custom.
As I mentioned, there have been times and places in history when it was considered immodest for men to wear pants as well. In the times of the Gemara, all men wore long robes and tunics, as evidenced by many of the laws regarding uncovering oneself in the bathroom. Nowadays, men may wear pants as this has become a societal norm. Again, I’ll post sources when I get home.
If I’m right on this, then we see pants are subject to societal norms as well, which means that in modern Western society, where most women wear pants, the question of whether or not Jewish women should wear them becomes one not of halacha per se, but custom and tradition – perhaps significant but belonging to a different category.
Hesh is right. I think when it comes to shidduchim people have their priorities all out of whack. I say focus on the actual mitzvahs first: as in, prayer, keeping shabbat, keeping kosher, for starters. While wearing skirts is important, I completely and totally agree that davening every day is more important. I truly do sympathize with your friend, she sounds like an amazing girl and it’s sad that many guys would be too blind to see it.
covering hair is in no1’s 613 mitzvah count…but beged ish is…
I asked my rebbi this question once (i would label him yeshivish but emesdik). He told me that tznius pants are officially muttar. But since the orthodox world sees them as a negative thing, and are not accepted into the frum communities, they should not be worn. He ended with “You cant change the world” .
urban gypsy, it’s all good. G-d doesn’t judge me based on what I wear; people sometimes do. (I had written a longer response, but wordpress seems to have had its way with it.)
Great stuff everybody! If you have not read it you must read my interview with Hesh of Frum Satire, it is not to be missed!
I’ve always wondered why my wife feels compelled to cover her hair before lighting Shabbos candles, even though it’s just the two of us in the house. Is it like wearing a kippah? Do other women do this?
Shua, re Numbers 5:18… yes, the good old Isha Sotah argument. Well, as far as that one goes, and it’s relevance to covering one’s hair in today’s world, men all wore dresses then. I’m not being a wiseguy or girl here, I’m serious. That does not make the extrapolated commandment to cover ones hair Torah Misinai. (Not to mention the dispute over whether it means uncover or loosen her hair.)
ITA with those who acknowledge the pants issue as social Orthodoxy, but disagree with those who think wearing pants is ONLY a way to make a statement. It’s a statement as much as anyone ever does is a statement, but not all women in pants are trying to make a specifically rebellious statement.
I for one am making the statement that I am more comfortable in pants and since I have yet to be convinced that G-d cares about skirts vs pants, I prefer to be comfortable.
Child Ish – Interesting post you linked to. You made me realize what I am missing in life – a tramp stamp! After all, I have the pants and the nose ring, so it’s the next logical step, right? I do sincerely feel for young girls who feel the pain you wrote of, but don’t make assumptions about people based on the way they look, it’s not becoming.
I do sort of understand that the pants thing can be a barrier for shidduchim, simply because most people cannot look past the external to see what a person is really like. I feel for your friend and I hope she finds someone special soon.
Michael, I think it’s an if you’re married and lighting candles thing (as in, I don’t cover my head; my mom’s not married, she doesn’t cover her head; my bub’s a widow, she covers her head).
Chanief, shidduchim is the primary reason I’m running around with a skirt in my car. (plth!) And, you know, minyanim on the fly. 🙂
s(b) I keep an “emergency” skirt in my car too, despite being married for almost ten years ;o) I use it, out of respect, if I happen to go to my parents house for an extended amount of time. It’s purely a respect thing though because they are well aware of my pants wearing ways…
I keep an emergency pair of pants in my car for all those shuls that don’t like me coming in shorts.
I agree with pants vs. skirts being a social Orthodoxy thing. When I started wearing pants again after 9 years of only skirts, I had NO idea the can of worms I was opening. The pants have have really changed the way people treat me. I don’t ‘look the part’ anymore and we Jews have a bad habit of putting each other into little boxes. My kids and I receive fewer invitations for meals on shabbat. Some people no longer greet me. No one tries to set me up. Never mind that I am publicly more engaged in learning and attending shiurim than I have ever been in the past. I guess I now know who my real friends are.
I am genuinely curious as to the reasoning for people who choose to switch to pants after wearing skirts for a long time. I understand the issue of comfort, etc. but I’m sure it wasn’t a decision you took lightly. Can you please share some of your reasons and impressions that came with making the change?
Hey Hesh i don’t get. I distinctly remember in one of your vids you said you were’modern orthodox’ . And you even pointed to your suede kippa to prove it. Ok so labels don’t work or you. In that case pick something and and stick with it
I for one never found a skirt comfortable at all I only wear pants so I understand the issue well.
Hesh do you really keep another pair of pants in your car? That is so frummy of you, next thing you’ll tell me is you have a gartel and a fake pair of payis and beard in case you end up in new square
Ok Moish- first of all- I am sure you understood that I was screwing around- I don’t think modern orthodoxy is all about suede yarmulkes- but ideally most people would consider me modern orthodox- with a sprinkling of chabad. I myself rather “just Jewish” or “neo chassidic” but if I had to choose I would say “out of the box” – I think it may be time for another updated post on labeling people- because everyone is in doubt about how to label themselves.
J-blogmeister- I will be linking to you within the next few days- as for the pants- I was reprimanded once for wearing my biker spandex to shul and decided to carry a pair of pants in my car- if you saw my car you would understand its nothing- I have a stove, tent and sleeping bag in my car as well.
“In that case pick something and and stick with it” -Moish
What if he wants to become more observant? Please don’t ask anyone to not let themselves grow (or evolve in any direction). That’s like putting a straightjacket on a Tigger. Labels don’t work for me, either. Jewish is label enough, isn’t it?
Anonymous, I’m sorry. I remember when my sister was younger, house policy re: when I was welcome to come over changing so that she wouldn’t be deprived of local social opportunities. While I didn’t agree with it, I respected it, for her sake. The house also went cholov yisrael, for the same reason. I get it.
hesh, it would’ve been funnier if you said emergency skirt. (I know, I know; sorry)
urban gypsy, I left yeshiva after 2nd grade, ditched the skirts then and didn’t look back ’cause I didn’t like HAVING to wear them. When I got older, it became a matter of draft avoidance, comfort, physical activities, etc. Now, it’s very annoying, but I can see how knowing that someone can and is willing to play the (social) game, in context, is a desirable quality in a potential partner. Fortunately, most guys I meet don’t care whether or not I wear skirts outside of shul, etc.
Biker spandex on a guy is totally a distraction. I would want a giant mechitza made of bulletproof stockings if I were davening near guys in bike shorts. With small windows for air circulation, but above or well below my line of sight, for sure.
Urban Gypsy,
I wrote out a my personal reasons for going back to pants, but wordpress didn’t let me post. Weird, I didn’t write anything inappropriate!
dear s(b.), for one hilarious moment i thought that your decision to stop wearing skirts in 2nd grade had something to do with avoiding army duty. now i get it, draft avoidance!
interesting experiences regarding your sister and yourself, thank you for sharing. i bet you’re an awesome sister, not many people would be willing to sacrifice one iota for a sibling’s benefit in this regard. i am impressed with you, with hesh, and others who mentioned they are willing to show respect in their dress for the benefit of others, even if you don’t agree with them.
anon, please try again. sometimes comments don’t go through, its not the content.
Thank you Urban- Anon I do not moderate comments unless they have links in them- or they talk in detail about “two girls one cup” style situations.
WordPress is weird like that- be patient- this morning someone couldn’t post one so they emailed it to me. frumsatire@gmail.com
It was very easy. I wasn’t living there; she was (as were her parents). It’s their nuclear family and neighborhood to deal with, not mine. That’s not to say I agreed with it, but she shouldn’t have to suffer with social BS related to a less-observant sibling. There’s enough social whatever for those who do everything “right.” Growing up is hard enough as it is, you know? Now that she’s not going to the local school, playing with the kids on the block, policy has relaxed closer to how it was before she started school.
s(b.), you may say it was easy, but it still demonstrates a lot of caring on your part. i say this as someone who grew up suffering from much social BS from a less-observant sibling who didn’t care. that is putting it very mildly. i think that while religion is a personal matter to a large extent, choosing to demonstrate respect for others gets a big gold star in my book. so, again, you are awesome!
Let’s try this again…my first post was written much better, but here goes…
I think that for me going back to wearing pants is part of a larger movement in my life towards making my inner and outer self more in sync. I have been trying to define my own hashgafa and then be true to it. 9 years ago when I stopped wearing pants, I think I did it largely because of social pressure. I was young, and new BTs can be very easily influenced. I may go back to only wearing skirts again someday, but I need to do it on my own terms, if and when I truly feel it is what I need to do in order to be shomer mitzvot.
I would also be lying if I said there wasn’t a statement imbedded in my actions too. Since I became observant, the community I live in has moved from middle of the road to very right-wing. To me, a lot of it seems like social Orthodoxy. People who were new BTs just a few years ago, are taking on cholov yisrael and yoshon. I see women going from pants to tights and sheitels in just a few months. In order to be accepted here socially, that is what you do. Personally, I have traveled the opposite path. I’ve been observant for 10 years now, and I have grown-up a lot and just don’t care what people think all that much. I feel like I owe it to my kids to teach them to think critically and understand why we do the things we do – because the Rav says so is not a good enough answer
Hesh, ‘two girls one cup situations’? Do I even want to know what that is?
Kudos to you Anonymous, being true to yourself is so important for both your happiness and in raising children who think for themselves. My hat is off to you, it’s not easy in an ultra orthodox community. I assume you send your children to a yeshiva, have you experienced any negative reaction there?
Thank you so much for retyping, anon. That is the most genuine and eloquent reason I have ever heard for going back to wearing pants. Many times I feel like my inner and outer selves are out of sync and it’s painful. I wish I could find a way to reconcile them while not being ostracized by my community. I appreciate your sharing these experiences with us.
Anonymous, no. consider yourself lucky that you don’t know what it is because once you do, you can NOT unknow it.
I’m going to start wearing pants when I’m out of my social orbit, simply because I am tired of giving people free-shows when I sit on the steps, or canoe, or bicycle, etc.
chanief, my kids go to a preschool-8th grade Orthodox school. (There is only one school in my area!) The reactions there have been mixed. Some people no longer greet me when I drop off the kids in the morning. But others have been supportive or at least tolerant.
My kids themselves are still really little and I am trying to use it as a teaching opportunity. When my older child told me that mommy’s are supposed to wear skirts and asked me if I was still Jewish, I used it as a chance to talk to him about there being different ways to be religious.
chanief, anonymous, urban gypsy, can we all play in Monsey some time? (or Highland Park, Princeton, Long Island, um … )
urban gypsy, there’s more to that which I’d be glad to discuss off-blog; feel free to send gmail to sarahbtsd, if you’re interested.
Anonymous, re: 2girls, 1cup; please trust chanief on this one. (if you’re still curious, think of a bad diaper change and add two girls, then trust chanief.)
This ties in very nicely to a paper Id written some time ago for college, and then passed off as a blog post when I was still doing that. The gist was that since the mass migration of Jews to America, the face of Judaism has changed drastically. The key point to consider is the Judeo-Christian backbone of the USA and how it has directly led to assimilation. This basically directly fed what we see today as the “outfrumming” movement where people compete with their neighbors to see who can make up bigger chumras. The example I used in my paper was the Black Hat but the skirt works in a similar ‘fashion.’
As much as we would like to be objective and couch the discussion as one of halacha, its not about that anymore. For a super-machmir society to exist, it must be under complete rabbinical supervision. That said, one major component of groupthink is the uniform. Ashrams, private schools and prisons know it and Rabbis know it too. As much as we would like to ignore the fact, a major part of being ultra-O is conformity. Its necessary for a controlled environment. Like the Black Hat, the skirt is part of the Orthodox uniform. For that reason, the discussion of pants and halacha will never really take place in an accepted format.
I know this probably sounds very conspiratorial but I just like to write that way. From the Rabbinical perspective assimilation/modernization is a very real threat and this is one of the ways that they feel that they can stem the tide.
If you want to read my original post, as adapted from my paper check it out HERE. Bear in mind, I wrote it a while ago and I dont know if I still stand by it. Comments made there will likely go unnoticed. And sorry… couldnt figure out how to hyperlink.
I just want to makes something clear here, which i think is a misunderstanding.
Wearing pants is not really a social obligation, rather a Halachic obligation. You can however rationalize it how you want, like shomer negia, twist adn turn it, untill it fits with “YOUR” connection to hashem, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
it says very clearly, “lo silbash isha cley gever”
there is a machlokes Rishonim if it means, mens clothing, or war gear, like swords or spears.
And that machlokes has trickled down all eh way to modern day achronim, who discuss if it is permissible to wear pants when skiing.
And there are those who allow in such situations. But to claim its all about social norms, is just mis-informed. I will get some more marre mekomes, when i get home.
heimish…I think what people mean about not wearing pants being ‘social Orthodoxy’ or ‘social norms’, is that many women are wearing skirts because they would not be socially accepted otherwise, rather than because they have actually studied textual sources and embrace wearing skirts as halacha.
heimish – it is not as halachically clear cut as you want to make it. according to those poskim who say pants are beged ish – then this would even apply to pajama pants. gimme a break. NO ONE here is following the opinion that pajama pants are assur for women. There are many poskim who hold that pants are not a beged ish issue rather a generic “lack of tzniut”. Thus according to some poskim (granted they are a minority and mostly in Israel) loose pants are mutar. Which would bring this whole discussion back to social norms.
“rather than because they have actually studied textual sources and embrace wearing skirts as halacha.” -Anonymous
tongue in cheek: which is why women shouldn’t study gemara! :bimah klop:
Seriously, thanks for weighing in, heimish. Whether or not I wear skirts in my own life or agree with something, it’s always interesting to learn textual bases for contemporary what it is. Better to make an educated decision to do or do not, I figure.
s(b) anytime. Oh and as far as the two cups, one girl thing, Thankfully I didn’t watch the thing, but just hearing about it was bad enough…
Anon II, I never said its clear cut, if anything that was the exact point of my comment, that ther it is a major discussion, about it, and dotn just pin it on Social Orthodoxy. In my view, its more ” i am doing whati feel comfortable”, which i do to, but i dont pin it on halacha.
i happen ot have just heard a phenominal tape from rabbi Frand, who is pretty left wing, on this whole subject, and he had a pretty hard time eaking out a heter to wear pants for skiing, it was a Mochlokes, i think, Rav Moshe, and Dayan Weiss, Minchas Yitzchok.
And dont get me wrong, in reality, the tight short skirts the Hot Chanies, wear are way more provocative then a pair of dress slacks, But a women wearing pants has much more to do then just modern rabinical bans, as dinking water in the metro ny area, or the wigs being avoida zara.
It actually has some relation to the actual original 613, thats my point.
These comments are infuriating.
heimish in bp – Perhaps women shouldn’t wear underwear either – afterall…men wear it!
The arguement of it being mens clothing is so old and disproven…you need to get some new ones.
Women can’t wear pants these days because all the ppl making these decisions are men. And they don’t have to walk around in a skirt that flies up…or bike around with a skirt….or play basketball in a skirt!
I’m sure as soon as they tried that they would reconsider.
I wear pants on occassion now – mostly because I prefer how I look in a skirt.
However, I’ll wear pants or “shorts” (they come to my knees…basketball shorts) for bicycle riding, sports etc. Without any hesitation.
Back in the day when I walked around with my elbows covered and skirts at that akward mid-calf length. I was a lot LESS religous than I am now!
How sad it is when we base what we observe off of what our neighbors will think.
As I was always taught…Sinning in the privacy of your own home – hiding it from your neighbors is worse than doing it in public. Because doing it in private shows that you are more scared of what your neighbors think than of what God thinks.
We all have to get over what other ppl. think….I know that it’s a hard thing to do but seriously…we all need to get minds of our own, and stop looking at our neighbors for approval!
ZK, I dont know your level of observance, and its irrelivent. However, from your post it appears you dress in a certain manner that is not acceptable accordign to halacha. I said “halacha” not social norms. So if you pick and choose what halacha you want to keep, that is fine, justify it as being a male donimated religion all you want, but the fact is you are disregarding the halacha.
And throughout our long and twisted history, from Moses, untill now, it was the male population that had a monopoly on the torah and all its halacha, so any halacha from women going to mikveh, to not being m’chuive in Mitzvas Asey She’haman G’rama, was all “fabricated” by men. SO pick and choose as much as you want. But admit it.
I wore skirts my entire life, on very cold days I wore skirts with thick tights in hot hot summer says I wore skirts with stockings. I never wore shorts at home or sweats it was not right. G-d can see me everywhere. Then I had a stroke at twenty I became an undesireable female it did not matter that I followed all the laws. So I said enough I will live life according to my heart.,
heimish in bp, I am waiting for you to show me where it says a woman cannot wear pants. This is the issue that is being debated now….Please don’t regurgitate what you’ve been told all your life – that pants are a mans clothing and as such impermissible, as we have already disproven this.
Come up with something new and i’m willing to listen….
ZK, stay tuned, I am at work now, and dont have anything at hand, but as soon as i get it all together, i wil post them, and they are many.
Excellent heimish. Do your homework. don’t bring back rubbish like beged ish.
cee, I’m so sorry.
I threw an interesting link up on my blog (links have to wait for moderation on here), if anyone feels like checking it out.
Heimish, I stand with you! I agree and i think everyone else who is pro woman wearing pants has a problem with jewish authority and will go against anything and everything that is for the sake of being jewish/frum and not left wing. You might call us “frummies” close minded, but i say you MOs are way too open minded that your brains fell out. Being jewish and frum does not mean finding every little loop hole imaginable so that you can be the least jewish possible with out burning in hell for all eternity. It means doing what Hashem wants for the sake of Hashem and not “just as long as its not a di’oraysa”. Chachamim made these laws for a reason, you can call them close minded or old fashioned but being jewish is not about being in style. The gedolim are smarter then anyone on this here blog and the fact that you question them for the sake of questioning and not to learn from and strive to become better shows what an apikores mind you all have.
If the chachamim made this law and pple have kept to it for thousands of years, chances are-they are correct.
And the issue with the girl who davens everyday, says tehilim, and is the frumest girl you have ever met…thats sounds like an oxymoron to me. One of the fundamental laws for a woman is keeping tznius. Why would she keep everything else but that? its seems moronic. I mean if she is a struggling BT and she is trying to do everything and she is not all the way there yet because keeping tznius is hard, i get that. But if that is her way of life and does not plan on changing-whats the point. Jeans are not tznius. Maybe the baggy ones that muslims wear are not that bad, but i highly doubt she wears one of those. A person can learn day and night but if they dont apply what they learn to their everyday lives then everything else is meaningless and worthless. And if you dont strive to become the best yid you possibly can, and refuse to keep one thing that happens to be one of a woman’s mitzvos, then that is plain old stupid and very low!
And the statement of “woman should not wear underwear because men do” is one of the stupid most immature thing i have ever heard. Grow up, go learn some torah and come back when your brain has consumed a little bit of rationality and sanity!!
Hesh, congrats on the popular post. Now that you have more readers, i wonder if its going to surpass the shomer negia post! (still my favorite)
i just posted on my blog an essay on hair covering and modesty and many of the points i raised have been raised in your blog and the comments. many times a minhag becomes seen as a din because everyone has been doing it for ever, and no one wants to make a stand.
Hesh – what are your thoughts on the expensive wigs the ortho community women are wearing these days, the so called Hot Chanies. who is more tznius – a woman in loose jeans, with a bandanna on her hair, OR a woman with a custom shietel, a skirt that covers her knees, barely, but obviously displays her rear end, and a form fitting shirt that definitely covers her elbows and collarbone. Many ppl would say that the skirt wearer is more modest – b/c she is more easily identifiable as “religious”. I disagree.
Dude! Ignorant and judgemental much? Oh to live in your world where everything is just black and white.
You know what I thank god for every day? I thank him that I am not an ignorant, unthinking lemming. I thank him that I have both the wisdom and courage to seek my own path to spirituality, challenge the patently ridiculous answers some have to my questions, and live my own life the way I see fit.
You should come join my world, it’s colorful here on the dark side (and we have cookies!!)
Heimish – what about pants designed specifically for women? Would you allow men to wear them (are they “men’s clothing”)? Please don’t bring proofs from people of different generations. In our generation, the majority of women wear pants. As noted above and as can be found by doing a quick Google search for “history of pants,” pants became popular for men in the 1500’s. They’re “men’s clothing” only due to cultural norms, which are of course subject to change.
Anyway, this conversation is awesome. I think I’m going to wear a skirt to work tomorrow to show my solidarity. Hey men wear skirts in Scotland – it’s not Beged Ishah!!
(Hot) Chanie – devil’s food cookies, right? 😉
where i grew up out of town only a few orthodox women wore skirts only. as i got older more women stopped wearing pants. once i moved to the ny area i stopped wearing pants because of social orthodoxy.
and a fun fact- when my mom was growing up in the late fifties/early sixties, boys werent allowed to wear jeans to public schools because it was considered too revealing. girls on the other hand were allowed to wear jeans to school.
Its funny how pple can make fun/mock/condemn and poke the frummies but as soon as as one of us has the guts to disagree with the not so frummies as it were-the “judgmental” card is immediately drawn. You know its not an excuse. Yes, i am judging you and you are judging me. its the way of life. Dont tell me that you dont judge pple because that is a load of crap. Thats what happens when someone is rebuked for doing or saying something that is not the right wing correct way-all of a sudden they are being judgmental and ignorant. Man, if you take a look into my world you would see that trying to make things as black and white as possible while being happy about it and not complaining on how hard it is to be jewish, you’d see its a lot more brighter and HAPPIER then your world!!! Yes, that is the key word here! Better person=happiness!
I wear pants as well as skirts and I used to keep an emergency skirt in the car for certain situations but the hole argument of not wearing skirts because its more confortable to do certain activities in pants isnt that compelling. I dont wear only skirts just because Im not at that point you but I hope to be eventually. As for cycling, hiking and windy days, why not just wear leggings under your skirt?
I wear pants as well as skirts and I used to keep an emergency skirt in the car for certain situations too, but the whole argument of not wearing skirts because its more confortable to do certain activities in pants isn’t that compelling. Pants may be more comfortable but leggings under the skirt are a very feasible option for cycling, hiking or windy weather. I dont wear only skirts just because Im not at that point you but I hope to be eventually.
Ok Dude! I do not make fun of/ mock/condemn or poke “frummies.” I do however, call someone ignorant and judgmental when they’ve opened their mouth* and proven themselves so.
Do you know my world? Aside from what I’ve told you how could you possibly know that your world is happier than mine – happiness being a completely subjective emotion! You would not be happy living in my world, and I certainly would not be in yours.
I do not judge you for being frum, I judge you for being ignorant and making blanket condemnations on anyone who dares to see Judaism in a different light than yours.
We do agree on one thing -> Better person = happiness. Keeping in mind that there is no one right way to being a better person and therefore no one right way to happiness, I respect your right to be a better person and seek your happiness, do you respect mine?
(*or pecked a message out on a keyboard, whatever applies)
Shua – Devil’s food cookies for sure, but we have all varieties – they’re warm too!
A girls skirt should be like a Rabbis Speech:Long enough to cover the basics but short enough to keep you interested.
I am not judging you on what level you are on, im judging you on the fact that you are ignorant to the chareidi world and to the reasons behind the things that we do and believe in. I know my way of life is happier then yours because I am doing what is “better”. Yes better! If you ask a gadol hador what is considered the torah way, they will say that wearing a skirt is more right winged. Now if you go against what the rav says, well then that is a whole nother ball game. Besides for the fact that it does not take a genius or in this case a gadol to know what is considered the better way. So again, better=happiness. The torah=happiness. Mitzvos=happiness. Hashem=happiness. I dont know if I can make myself any clearer!
Oh, and the saying goes-“come to the dark side, we have cookies!” A little ironic on your end eh!!
Rivka, you rock. Dude, it’s the Halacha, stupid. When Rabanim stick to Paskining Halacha and when the Klal actually starts learning it, we can talk. Anonymous, I totally get your choice. I would spout a whole set of platitudes about how a guy who is right for you will appreciate you for who you are, but real life sucks and stuff like that doesn’t always happen.
Cee, I wish you happiness and I get you too. Choices born of pain, sounds familiar.
Heimish, loose pants are Halachically Mutar. I didn’t find that out till I was about 19 from a “Modern” girl who actually learned Halacha in Brovenders. Being that you probably don’t even know what Brovenders is–no anger, just reality–you should just lay your cards down and step away from the table. This isn’t your game. Trust me, having been raised “Heimish” I can say with certainty that many in the committed MO community can Halacha the two of us right under the table.
s(b), I really like you.
Hesh, I just got back from Phillie and I will say that if your friend lives in the neighborhood I think and know, then she will continue to have a hard time because it’s a heavy BT community moving more and more to the right. Also, spandex? That would be so funny in Monsey. So worth it.
Oh, btw, I keep an entire spare set of clothes for everyone in my family in the car in case of a nuclear holocaust. Just saying.
Duuuuude! You are going to go down in flames shortly. Take your right wings and fly away. Doesn’t your Internet filter block blogs? Definitely should according to the standards issued by my shul. Come to darkest side – we have cholent…
Duuuuude! You are going to go down in flames shortly. Take your right wings and fly away. Doesn’t your Internet filter block blogs? Definitely should according to the standards issued by my shul. Come to the darkest side – we have cholent…
oops. sorry for the double post (now triple).
So what do all you rabbis & rebitzens think the punishment for wearing pants might be.
Death by spandex.
Mike, a good old fashioned stoning perhaps? Maybe a flogging?
Dude! I’m (obviously) well aware of the expression “come to the dark side, we have cookies!” I like cookies too much to leave the dark side…
I admit I did chuckle at your “ignorant to the chareidi world” comment. Let’s just say I come by my name (Chanie) honestly. I came, I saw, I questioned, I learned, I left. I didn’t go very far, but I’m not looking back!!
There would be very little purpose to continuing a dialogue with someone as narrow minded as yourself. Perhaps one day your eyes will be opened to the fact that there is NO one right way, only G-d knows the right way and every one of us – Rabannim and Gedolim included, are just making assumptions and guesses at what the right way is. Until that day, I wish you a lot of luck and happiness in your “better” life.
Shua – LOL about having cholent on the dark side, someone needs to make up a tee shirt with THAT on it!!! (Maybe a cute little devil stirring a pot of cholent?)
utubefan – ROFL @ death by spandex. If that’s the case, pass me a skirt and a match with which to burn my pants! Quick!!!
well, they’ll stone you when you’re tryin’ to be so good … (evening, folks.)
ok i was just on facebook
“frum satire is no longer listed as single”
is there something you want to share with the class heshy??
Wow 93 comments and everyone is still getting a long.
I am no longer listed as single because I am trying to make my profile a little less personal- I dont need 1200 ppl knowing my status- I have also decided I should not date girls who read my blog before they know me.
For shame, now who are all of the single girls who read your blog going to date?
I should add you on facebook…. so I can keep better tabs on you – Mwuhahahahahahaha! (scare you yet? LOL… don’t worry, I’m only kidding.)
My 2 cents:
I think it depends on what kind of pants:
Tzniut: regular fitting jeans, womens business pants.
Skanky: sweatpants, tight jeans, with words like “hottie” on the back.
And, are skirts that tzniut? I’ve heard the reason women can’t wear pants is that they make the crotch area noticeable, or something like that. However, if a woman has some fat in the right places, a skirt can accentuate her figure. You can notice them moving more with pants. However, in a skirt, it just looks like one big gluteus maximus.
By the way, I’m not just talking about short skirts hear. Even floor length charedi skirts can do this.
As to the whole not arousing men thing, sometimes I think of ripping the skirt off her (consensually, of course :)). Not so with pants.
As you mentioned, Hesh, skirts have the Marylin Monroe effect.
The positions (not those ones) a women can be in is limited in skirts. Often they can’t sit cross legged or put their feet up.
If women can wear pants that are tailored for them, can men wear kilts?
Ironically, on the day you posted the interview saying its great if you hit 20 comments and mention the ones who hit 200 you’ve almost got 100!
Anyways, you should have mentioned kilts. I guess in Scotland kilts are beged ish!
On the topic of kilts, its not just a Scottish thing. I was in Seattle two years back and saw more than a few men wearing skirts. These werent even tartan or anything. Just skirts and flannel. Must’ve been some grunge thing I missed.
As a further aside, the Scottish Jews actually now have their own official tartan! yay! So if you are serious about going down the kilt derech, at least do it the proper yiddish way.
I happen to personally be against pants in almost all situations. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be civil with each other.
Ahavas Yisroel applies to every Jew, including those we disagree with.
“Man, if you take a look into my world you would see that trying to make things as black and white as possible while being happy about it and not complaining on how hard it is to be jewish, you’d see its a lot more brighter and HAPPIER then your world!!! ”
Dude: Making things black and white may indeed make the people in “your” world happier.
But it sure doesn’t make people from “that” world happy when they visit “your” world and are snubbed.
Not to say that “your” world snubs everyone who does not subscribe to black-and-white thinking. Just saying that “your” world is not such a bright place for everyone.
Hate me all ya want, but Dude! makes excellent points. It’s just another example of how American societies have warped all spirituality from the world and has filtered Judaism into some open minded debatable textbook. These changes and opinions of the truth are so recent. 60 years ago there was nothing to discuss. The people who oppose every halacha that’s too stringent for them are plagued by inner conscience. It’s the only way to explain why the responses to any well-meaning rebuke are so harsh and critical. Calm down. We don’t hate you.
agreed, dan l’kaf z. (the last part) I could’ve done better today. (and thanks, utubefan) The name-calling could’ve been done without. I didn’t touch what Dude! wrote ’cause sometimes it’s better for me not to say anything and let folks’ words speak for them better than any response of mine can; and I don’t disagree with everything he said, just most of it and how it was delivered, but a lot of that depends on the individual and there is no hell in Judaism, just olam haba; Christian Satire is down the hall that way (kidding). Hadassah, I vote for the chick with the bandana (sp?). KissMeI’mShomer, your last paragraph presumes that Dude! gives a __’s __ how anyone not in his world feels. Heimish, wake up, Heimish. (Please, somebody find a guy in spandex to wake him up! [Have you ever read about maleches makeh b’patish? Talk about making my head spin. Bang on tables, don’t bang on tables. I love Judaism.] Sweet dreams, all. This was fun. Stacy, hi. M, I have no idea how to lead, and I’ve got no audience, so studying and discussing whatever topics come up and just dealing with people being themselves seems to be the best excuse for an idea re: going forward I’ve got on that. (sorry for the lack of returns)
Headbanger, if I thought you were legal, I’d offer you an adult beverage. It’s much easier to let the black and white roll off my back without a label. I don’t hate you, either. I just feel free to not hold everything you do without judging you for holding more. Better you than me, holmes. You look so good in a skirt (I’m kidding).
“Please stay on your knowing what people do for the sake of heaven horse and leave the real work to me and my pants and people like Reb Shlomo (z”l) and Chabad and the handful of rabbonim I’ve been fortunate enough to know who had the wisdom to leave an open door, who said, “Just come; don’t worry about what you’re wearing.””
-s(b) – You write beautifully. I’m totally with you. I believe that it’s more important what you feel in your heart and your own personal spiritual relationship with G-d than what you know
Xvi- I was in Seattle a couple months ago and I walked by this shop and noticed some guys in death metal t-shirts, worker boots and kilts. It was hilarious seeing these guys that look like they could kick my ass walking around in skirts.
So I went into the shop and I got the full tour. The kid that showed me around pointed out this one guy and told me that he hasn’t put on a pair of pants in two years. He also promised me that I’ll never want to go back once I put a kilt on and that no one will think I’ll look weird walking around in it back in NYC. They have grunge kilts, khaki kilts, tuxedo kilts and even basketball-short kilts. My personal favorite was the construction kilts because they have a snap to hide your junk when you’re high up on a ladder.
no mention the Flatbush Fakers (TM), who don’t think twice about donning pants when skiing, and even less when in florida. but when back in brooklyn ir ha-kodesh . . .
why no mention of the Flatbush Fakers (TM), who don’t think twice about donning pants when skiing, and even less when in florida. but when back in brooklyn ir ha-kodesh . . .
Okay ….So all these angry responses about MO and charedi being on opposite sides etc.
Is exactly where the problem of pants/ no pants stems from.
There are no sides folks.
We’re all Jewish. We all try to do the best we can, to follow what we believe in.
I understand Heimish in bp, and dude! and there attitudes. I come from that environment. – The environment of judge everyone unless they do exactly as you do, and look exactly as you look. But never mind if we close our doors, and talk Lashon Hora non stop, and judge ppl. non stop. We do that behind our closed doors where only GOD can see us, not our neighbors. So when we die at 120 hopefully our neighbors will judge us favorably. Oh WAIT! our neighbors are not going to be the ones to judge us….
Rember that Dude and heimish.
You guys are all arguing the pointless arguement of which side is the “real” side. There is no real side. We all have to start being good jews in order to honor and respect GOD, not in worry of what our neighbor will think about us.
I’m not going to even argue any of any of this.
PS. For all of you who say that we should stop looking for outs, and stop trying to change things, the chachamim know best -you are right. The chachamim DO know best. However, change only happens when people stand up and say hang on I have a problem with this. (check out history)
If we were never to stand up and change our minhagim, and change how we view halacha – then we would all still be using ice boxes, and my mother would still be wearing mini skirts (as was ACCEPTABLE in BAIS YAAKOV in the 1970’s).
For all of you Women who want me to wear leggings under a skirt when I bike ride – HAHAHAH! you go bike 12 miles a day with a skirt entangling your legs. Doesn’t make for much fun.
The bottom line is that Tznius comes from within. There are so many ppl. out there who dress tzniutly on the outside yet do not have an ounce of true Tznius on the inside. And THAT is once again doing things for your neighbors benefit, NOT for GODS….which is really the point of this whole exercise is it not?
Y’all are right. There is something to be said for going along with what the Klal does. However, what the klal does can and should be changed on occassion. This may or may not be one of those occassions.
I’m glad people are speaking up and finding out if it is.
I still have yet to see a real halacha that stands today against wearing pants.
They are no longer beged Ish.
The only potential arguement i’ve heard otherwise is that it accentuates various parts of the female form and that is not tzniut. Fine. I hear that – however the type of pants you choose to wear stems from the kind of Tzniut you have on the inside – and as such if you are going to choose untzniut pants, you are also choosing untzniut skirts – which i’ve seen plenty of.
ZK
Ok, wow, alot to take in and alot ot say, but will try to make it as short as possible, without boring you too much.
UTUBEFAN, I promised ZK, i will do some homework, and i did. And as i said befefre, its not social orthodoxy, ITS HALACHA!!!
Shulchan Urach, Yoreh Daeh, Siman 182, Sief 5, The R’Mah says that if a women wears a man’s beged (shut up for a second ZK, and listen) even though the rest of her clothing are women clothing, therby her appearance is still recognized as a women, it is still ussur. THe R’mah is reffering to a machlokes between the Bais Yosef and the Bach, if it needs to be all her clothing or just one.
As to modern day Poskim, Tshuevas Avnie Nezer, who is HaRav Shmuel Wosner, whoever knows who that is, Yoreh Daeh Section 2, Siman 62, adn in Section 6, Siman 118, s”k 2, clearly states that even if the pants is made for a women and you can tell it by design, it is still assur M’DDeoraisa, both because of cli gever and because of tznius.
He brings down a Tsuevas Avnei Tzedek and a Tsuevas Divrei Chaim, who would allow it in cold weather without a skirt/dress on top, with whom the Avnie Nezer, disagrees.
I did see some tzuevas from Rav Moshe, nothing straigh on point, however, in Y”D 3, he is asked at what point a girl s suposed to stop wearing pants and he concludes, as soon as parents start dresseing them differently. I would conclude that an adult abviously has to maintain tha status, but i dont wan to put words in his mouth. However , if you read his Tznuis Tshuevas you would be quite determined that if the rabonim of the dor consider it untnius, you are m’chuiv to listen.
So to all who claim its closed minded, and just sticking our head in the ground, the mishna in Avos says “knei lcha Rav”, get yourself a rabbi, who will quide in your quest of becomming a better jew (if thats what you want), and no we cannot stand and make changes for disagreeing with the rabbis. Judiasm is not a democracy.
Also, alot of you are talkign about spirituality, as if its something differnt then the torah. The Torah has given us a very clear path of you should reach a spiritual level and become closer to him. You coming up with different ways and saying “oh, well this is how i feel closer to hashem” then go ahead and join the consevative/reform movement. Dont cloak yoruself with the orthodox lable, which is, and always was, straight up based on the Rabbi’s of the dor, and justify your actions by claiming that they dont know what they are talking about.
That’s exactly how the reform movement start, if you can expain to me what “work” is done by driving to the grocery on shabbos, then you get a prize. But its still a melacha.
Point in case, when the whole ban on shaitlech came out, that is is made form a avoida zara, i went to my local rabbi and asked him, he said its fine and that was the end of it. However when i want to watch a movie, i dont ask him, because i know there is no heter, but i want to do it anyway. THAT DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT!!!!
So Youtubefan, you qouted some halacha that permits it. Fine, i didnt find any, if you have a rabbi who permits it, kol hacavod, my hats off to you. however if you are just qouting from what you heard from someone who heard , who thought he heard from someone else, thats not what a god-fearing jew should base his decisions on.
Hesh, what do you think about LA girls? I am pondering going to UCLA.
Heimish, you are 100% right about one thing – that Orthodoxy is and always has been straight up based on the Rabbanim of the Dor.
However, I don’t think dismissing people by saying “go join the conservative / reform movement” is really the right thing to do. Maybe these people want to follow the Orthodox way of life but are having a hard time reconciling their questions with the answers currently available to them. Wouldn’t educating people in a kind and logical manner would go a lot farther than rebuking or dismissing them.
The problem of this generation, as I see it (great sage that I am LOL) is that there is a huge segment of the population that don’t fit anywhere. We don’t fall under the typical Orthodox label, but neither do we fit in the reform or conservative movement.
We do seek spirituality and recognize that spirituality can be separate from Torah (spirituality being the relationship between the self and God.) Finding the balance between Torah, God and Self is not easy in this day and age. We face spiritual and emotional challenges that far surpass what previous generations have faced, and the trend toward scrupulosity in the Orthodox world only makes it more difficult for out of the box thinkers.
For you, Torah may be the only way to be spiritual and be close to God, but at some point you have to recognize that that may not be the way for everyone, and perhaps those of us that challenge are doing it out of hunger to learn and not because we are ignorant, stupid, childish or rebellious.
I sometimes wish that it were easy for me to just believe. When you just believe and don’t feel the burn to challenge and learn and KNOW your life is easier – it’s all laid out for you, neatly, in a series of books that guide you from your birth to your death, and that seems appealing at times.
The bottom line is, it all comes down to respect. If you have respect for God you must respect his creatures, even and especially if they live and think differently than you do. Ahavas Yisrael is not conditional and isn’t the reward greater for respecting and loving those that are, to you, the most difficult to love and respect?
Enough of the women in skirts/pants. The real issue are the bochurim who are wearing kilts.
i am going to go out on a limb here and say I wear pants and know that most rabbonim feel that pants on a woman is assur. I also wear tank top shirts yet I still believe that a married woman needs to wear a head covering.
I am aware that not all of my actions are halachicly correct. Do I try to justify them? Maybe. Do I know the ultimate truth according to mainstream Orthodox Judaism and woman wearing pants? Yes.
But what I have discovered along the way is that being frum is a personal decision regarding growth and beliefs. Do I hope to one day get to a point where how I look towards men no longer matters to me? Absolutely.
But what I have realized as time goes on – that each person works on halachic issues at their own pace and over the course of their lifetimes. My struggles might be with how I dress but not necessarily with my tefilot, middot and other aspects to obeying Hashem.
None of us have the right to judge others on what they do or dont do just to make yourself feel better about where you appear to be in the long line of religious people. Judge yourself and only yourself. Monitor your actions and only your own actions and do not justify your bad behavior by saying that at least I do such and such and others do way less.
ChanieF, “Wouldn’t educating people in a kind and logical manner would go a lot farther than rebuking or dismissing them.” That is exactly the point of my comments.
For one who is on the way back to Judiasm, it might be hard to reconcile such prohibitions, especially if the person is doing this lifestyle transition throught “its” logic and understanding. But once one realizes that the only way, to fully reconcile his questions, is by askig one who he/she respects, and excepting that persons answers, the person will have a easier time doing the 613, because no one, and i mean NO ONE, understands it all.
Hey, i feel very spiritual when i listen to a Floyd song, or a Nirvana song, or standing at the rim of the Grand Canyon (which was awsome). That has nothing to do with Torah. And that spirituality is not what the torah wants us to guide us in our lives. Rather by doing the mitzvos of the Torah, is what is supposed to make us more spiritual, and agian dont try fitting in your spirituality, into the torah. One has nothing to do with the other.
And one more thing, i never claimed to be on any madrega (level) to feel that way, and i dont live in a box at all, and struggle with theses questions day in and day out. I left BP and joined the goyishe world, big time. Its murder for me, and I am amazed by anyone who stays frum in the outside world, or grows up non-frum. But that doesnt justify trying to squeeze my wants and needs into the strict guidlelines of Torah.
Jack I was going to ask that- I am staying out of the discussion because its too long- very educating and thanks to Hemishe- there is some hardcore halacha going on here- but Kilts on men- now thats interesting.
Especially because many long distance hikers wear hiking dresses because its airier and makes climbing easier.
disclaimer: this is a long post.
chanief, it seems that chanief’s restaurant pantsacree movement is required, per below (source link is on the pants post currently at the top of my blog, linked above):
“For Kli Gever – most Poskim hold that if the mode is for women to wear pants – it looses the definition of men’s clothing and there’s no torah prohibition of Kli Gever in such case;
On the other hand there are Poskim who hold pants to be a man’s garment regardless to the custom of New York ladies; the women to change the mode for Halachic purposes are only those that care for what Halacha says.”
-Rabbi Elchanan Lewis (I have no idea who he is, but that site cites sources, and I appreciate that)
Thanks, 1234. When I don’t know if I should laugh or cry when a guy tells me I’m too into religion for him, kind words like that make my day (the guy thing, I think, is BS; if he were interested, me caring about Judaism wouldn’t stop him, so gam zu l’tovah.).
Who loves Pirkei Avos? I do! Let’s learn a minute, okay? (there’s a link on my blog to the page from which the following comes; it is part of the commentary on PA 1:6, at the end, which reads “judge every person in the scale of merit.” Commentary reads:
“Judging one favorably involves an honest appreciation of the challenges which the person faces and this awareness should also lead to the understanding that G-d has surely given that person the ability to overcome these challenges. This, in turn, should heighten the sensitivity with which we regard this individual, for he is a person to whom G-d has entrusted this formidable power necessary to overcome such challenges. When the manner in which we relate to that person reflects such respect, this will inspire the individual to bring these potentials to the surface.” (The Lubavitcher Rebbe, z’tl)
That is a good reminder that respect swings both ways, as does agreeing to disagree. If telling people to shut up is part of wearing the “cloak of orthodoxy,” I’ll thank my lucky pants I don’t call myself anydox, nor do I claim to wear that cloak. (I don’t have lucky pants, and I realize not everyone calls people names [as occurred earlier here].)
To be quite honest, re: black and white = better, part of me feels like telling anyone who listens to any music during sefirah or uses a blech to blow it out their favorite heter. Yes, Judaism is full of black and white. But combined, black and white make gray. Learning to respectfully have differences of opinion with people is a skill worth acquiring, even if it’s not always easy (look at the first sentence of this paragraph; it’s not eloquent; but, you know what? In the grand scheme of things, if you’re rockin’ the black and white, my opinion probably doesn’t matter to you, anyway, and that’s cool. My point is that we can all do better than to call each other names, be patronizing [I don’t feel like singling people out] or to tell another that our way is the right or best way for someone else [see quote from rebbe above], even if we really believe it is).
I’m not yelling, but if you only read one thing I write in this post, please read this: TZNIUT BEING FROM WITHIN IS REALLY IMPORTANT (imo, and all the related stuff, like without). I know this isn’t a serious blog, but it’s got a ton of readers from all ends and beyond the spectrum of Jews today.
If anyone would be interested in discussing how to cultivate tzniut in today’s youth (as well as adults, ’cause it’s a daily life thing, really), please second this motion for a separate post with tznius in the title for this topic’s discussion to be created (so people don’t have to wade through 100+ comments on pants to get to it). You don’t even have to write anything, Hesh; just post links to your previous tzniut post content (I can assemble that, if people are actually up for a discussion). Thanks for your consideration.
And, Jack and Ahuva in ’08 (as good as any other party’s candidates, I reckon). Heimish, next time, I’ll wake you myself. 🙂 I’m intrigued by the idea of a hiking dress (with shorts underneath, for me, thanks).
fantastic comments s(b.)!
three cheers for posting the Lubav. Rebbe’s pirush on pirkei avot, that was something we all should remember and indeed words to live by.
also, black + white = grey is certainly the Jewish way and has been for centuries. i love the way you explained that!
i for one would love to see a tzniut post and some discussion on what “tzniut from the inside” really entails.
also, i would love to come play with you and the girls in monsey, but i’m in toronto 🙁
i will email you though and maybe we can work something out?
Heimish, forgive me for misconstruing the intention behind your comments. The written word sometimes comes across in a different way than is intended. I don’t necessarily agree that saying “This is the halacha and therefore the only way to do things” is not going to be effective in educating someone, but we can agree to disagree (and yes, I paraphrased, that’s not an exact quote.)
s(b) – I’m sorry, call me slow, but I didn’t get your “chanief’s restaurant pantsacree movement” Can you explain? I did get the “being tznius from within” part of your comment and wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think people are going to start judging others based on their inner beauty any time soon though.
I LOVE the Rebbe quote. The Rebbe was a very wonderful and wise man and he cared for every single jew regardless of what they were wearing or where they were holding religiously. The world is a much darker place since his death.
Ack! Bad editing on my part. Heimish that should say “I don’t necessarily agree that saying “This is the halacha and therefore the only way to do things” IS going to be effective in educating someone… bla bla bla”
Also lovin’ the rebbe quote.
Along those lines, I find myself thinking that each person has areas of observance where they struggle or question, whether it is keeping kashrut, or making time for learning, or whatever. We all have areas of observance that come more naturally than others.
For women who are working out whatever challenges we have with the pants/skirts debate, it is just a more visible struggle than others and the level of judgement seems harsher. There is an intensity to the debate for reasons I haven’t yet deduced. It really touches a nerve with some people.
I think that it would be quite worthwhile for those who are speaking out most vehemently against women wearing pants to consider that and to understand that a lot of us are trying to sort through this issue, and our observances in general, and come to a place where we are taking on observances out of a genuine understanding and committment to halacha.
urban gypsy….I’m also stuck outside the NY area…too bad. The playtime in Monsey would be fun!
Yes, yes, yes! Anon, you are brilliant. I think that’s the crux of the issue. Struggles which are PUBLIC are much more painful, intense, and touchy because everyone is scrutinizing your private level of observance.
I am actually heading to the Sforim store to get Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, by Rabbi JJ School, which is supposed to have the goods, ranging from Avadia Yosef to the Tzitz Eliezer.
But one thing bothers me, i keep on reiteraing that it is not personal, and it has nothing to with respect or judging or looking down, for me.
Whoever took it personal, read my comments agains and see it was all to to prove: that the ban was/is halachah and not social. SO if you did get offended, by anything i said, i am sorry, and that wasn’t my intention.
So quote as much as you want, from who you want, about ahavas yisrael and any other mitzva, its irrelivant to the point on hand.
Tzitz Eliezer- hahahahahahah- sorry I couldn’t help it.
Nice one, Hesh. Very Beavis.
chanief, I linked all of the lyrics to Alice’s restaurant in my pants-related post on my blog. Specifically, I was referring to, above, “if the mode is for women to wear pants – it looses the definition of men’s clothing and there’s no torah prohibition of Kli Gever in such case,” which I related in my head to Arlo Guthrie’s lyrics from Alice’s Restaurant (that is a song title), as follows:
“And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out. They may think it’s an organization.
“And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may think it’s a movement.
“And that’s what it is, the Alice’s Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar.
“With feeling. So we’ll wait for it to come around on the guitar, here and sing it when it does. Here it comes.
“You can get anything you want, at Alice’s Restaurant
You can get anything you want, at Alice’s Restaurant
Walk right in it’s around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want, at Alice’s Restaurant.”
🙂
—-
I Beavised, too.
—-
I’m on Long Island. I say we all meet up at Anonymous’s. lol I don’t know. I hear Toronto has a nice Jewish community. I’m overdue for a trip to Rochester. I’ll be near Ithaca in mid-July (just before the three weeks) for a music festival. I’ll probably be freelancing in midtown on Sunday. That’s all I know.
There’s a famous story of the chossid R’ Shmuel Munkes. This is taken from shturem.net It’s a bit long but well worth it.
During the month of Elul, a renowned Maggid – a traveling preacher – came to the town of Reb Shmuel Munkes, well known Chassid (disciple) of the Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schnuer Zalman of Liadi. The townspeople saw his letter of introduction, referring to him as a great Tzaddik who gives up his own comforts to travel from town to town only to arouse and inspire Jews. Being G-d-fearing people, they immediately invited him to speak and inspire them to serve the Almighty better
.In the course of his sermon, the Maggid, over and over berated his audience and accused them of committing terrible sins. His entire speech was filled with accusations and descriptions of the terrible punishments awaiting them because their evil behavior had aroused Hashem’s anger. Only if they would wholeheartedly repent would they possibly have a chance to be spared. The townspeople were utterly broken by the Maggid’s harsh words, they cried bitterly, fearing the awesome punishment
.Upon conclusion, the Maggid, satisfied with himself, retired to the room that the community had arranged for him
.A short while later, Reb Shmuel entered the Maggid’s room. He carried with him a long knife and a stone with which to sharpen it. Reb Shmuel closed the door behind him and then bolted it shut. Without saying a word, Reb Shmuel began to sharpen his knife
A few tense and long moments passed. Finally the Maggid broke the silence and asked in astonishment, “Sir, could you please tell me what this is all about?”
‘?Without glancing up from the knife he was sharpening, Reb Shmuel, in mock sincerity, answered, “As the honorable, great Maggid knows, we are very simple people in this town. Perhaps, it is because of our careless sins that we have never merited to have a great, righteous, G-d fearing scholar in our midst.” Not knowing what to make of this answer, the Maggid replied, “Yes, that is true. Still, what does that have to do with you sharpening the knife
?Reb Shmuel retorted, “We were taught by our parents that before Rosh Hashanah one is to pray at the grave sites of the righteous.” Still unsure of what Reb Shmuel’s point was, the Maggid continued, “That is correct. But why are you sharpening that knife
“Oh, that is very simple,” explained Reb Shmuel. “The nearest grave site of a righteous person is very far from our town. For some of us it is extremely cumbersome to make such a long journey.”
By now the Maggid was beginning to feel uneasy. He ventured, “But you still have not explained why you are sharpening your knife in this room,” as the beads of sweat starting dripping down his temples. Reb Shmuel answered, “Quite simply, I am sharpening my knife here because the townspeople want a very righteous person buried in this town.”
Now, the Maggid had not even a shadow of a doubt as to what Reb Shmuel’s intentions were. The Maggid stammered, “But I am not completely righteous. I have also done some small sins, such as…”
Reb Shmuel dismissed the Maggid’s confession, saying, “Honored Maggid, you are still a very righteous and learned person. As for the sins that you mentioned, I did not even know that they are transgressions.”
The Maggid continued in a stutter, “Come to think of it, I did some transgressions that were much more serious, such as…” Concerning this too, Reb Shmuel shrugged, arguing, “But to us you are still a Tzaddik; you are more than adequate, besides, you are probably just being very humble.”
This strange dialogue continued for some time with the Maggid admitting to more and more severe transgressions and Reb Shmuel telling him, “But you are still acceptable to us, as you are far better than us.”
Finally, the Maggid confessed to some rather extremely serious transgressions and that he was not at all the great Tzaddik that his letter of introduction and credentials portrayed him to be. In essence, he was saying, “I am an impostor.”
.Now Reb Shmuel, no longer played the simpleton. After putting away the knife, he began chastising the Maggid for causing the Jews of the town so much pain and sorrow. After making sure the Maggid fully understood how one is to talk to and treat another Jew, Reb Shmuel unbolted the door and let the Maggid go on his way, much wiser than he had ever been before.
The argument isn’t that we should not judge each other and we are all on different levels…yet it is whether wearing pants is halachicly correct or not. The answer is NO. End of that discussion! Yes everyone is on a different level and everyone views Judaism in a different way, and they can make their own choices regardless of what is the torah way of life because some people don’t go according to the Torah but rather what is in their hearts. But all this is irrelevant when it comes to the topic at hand.
And FYI (chanief) Judaism is based on the Torah so if you don’t go according to the Torah but only what you “feel” in your heart then that is NOT the way of Hashem. I am NOT judging you and don’t know or care what level you are on but what you call being jewish by being nice to your fellow jew (yes that is very important and I agree that there are “some” communities that lack on that aspect) is called being a jew at heart. And that is NOT the best way. The best way is going according to the Torah. Now again, I don’t know what level you are on and that is not the argument. I just wanted to point out that the RIGHT way is the TORAH way which includes halacha. And the halacha says a woman can not wear pants!!
s(b) – Ok, LOL, I get it now. I had visited your blog to read your post but somehow missed the lyrics link.
Dan – Great story, thanks for posting it here.
First off, I think it’s disrespectful for a guy to tell a girl that she shouldn’t be wearing pants to her face….Feel how you want, you don’t have to date her, but don’t tell her how to dress, it’s a female-only issue…
Secondly, about the “being jew at heart is not the Best way…should live according to halacha…” Well I don’t think that a Jewish person raised in a frum community can be compared next to a Jewish person raised in Smalltown, USA,… who can’t afford to move to a town with an orthodox synagogue, who was given nowhere near the opportunities in living halachically as the frum person; who did not go to Jewish schools and knew only a couple other Jewish people. So if that person is spiritual at heart, I don’t think anybody, least someone born and raised in a frum community, should raise their voice to that…Just be grateful that you were given such wonderful opportunity to live the Jewish way of life, even though not everyone has that Equal chance.
Dude! – Obeying Hashem is two fold – from Man to G-d and from Man to his fellow Man. I’d just like to point out that both are just equally important and each person needs to balance growth and observance of both.
So while some might “look” frummer it doesnt mean that they are. Do not judge a book by its cover and trust me – many ppl have personal reasons why they do or do not wear pants and it is not just black and white for every person. We all have personal issues of observance for something or another.
As it was mentioned above, tznius is an outward battle and one that can be made harder by outside scrutiny. Keep in mind that just because it is easy for you to follow it doesnt mean its easy for others.
Based on this: “For Kli Gever – most Poskim hold that if the mode is for women to wear pants – it looses the definition of men’s clothing and there’s no torah prohibition of Kli Gever in such case; On the other hand there are Poskim who hold pants to be a man’s garment regardless to the custom of New York ladies; the women to change the mode for Halachic purposes are only those that care for what Halacha says.”
-Rabbi Elchanan Lewis
If women (and this would be grassroots, Alice’s Restaurant-style revolution) who are pro-pants would all agree, going forward (simchas/funerals/yt/shul notwithstanding) to wear modest pants on Wednesdays, wouldn’t that change the mode?
I would extend that to include the wearing of modest pants for athletic activities for which pants are better-suited, as well. I would like ZK or another female biker’s advice on modest bicycling gear that won’t get caught in gears and stuff.
I’ll define modest pants as straight-leg or boot-cut, not tight around the waist. These include but aren’t limited by any means to surgical scrubs, martial arts pants and skater jeans.
Very interesting to read the comments. I wear pants (scrubs- not form fitting at all!) at work but make sure to change before coming home. I have no problem wearing pants however I know that many people in the community will be offended and make judgements about me (not to mention that I am an “old maid” and won’t find a shidduch with such behavior). Skirts are very limiting. I have tried biking and playing sports in long skirts and it is very impractical. In some situations it can actually be quite hilarious. In college I would play basketball and tennis with some male classmates while wearing a skirt. Naturally they thought I was crazy. I would love to understand the halacha behind the skirt rule. I don’t buy the beged ish thing as pants are made specifically for women nowadays.
Hesh- your blog is great, keep up the great work and give us “outsiders” a place to convene.
Funny, but my chosson teacher actually told me that pants for women, if they arent too tight, are actually more tznius then skirts are. However because our society looks down on it, so then we shouldnt do it. And he is a talmid chacham.
Nech good comment and its true, skirts are restricting and the risk of flashing someone alone is untznius by nature.
Yitz- thats the issue, society needs to progress to be more welcoming of people who choose to be individuals- Judaism is not one size fits all and thats evidenced by the variety of opinions on how to practice it through out the ages.
Hesh – the Philosopher
Just found this thread while searching for information concerning a potentially unpleasant situation I’m about to find myself in. I’m shortly going to be moving to London, where I hope to find work, and will be staying in the house of my uncle who is a rabbi. He has insisted that as long as I am living in his house I will be required to wear a skirt at all times. This is not exactly something I’m happy about; for one thing I’m not at all religious, for another I never wear skirts, don’t even currently own a skirt, and don’t even want to think about the prospect of wearing one every day. Can anyone think of some arguments I might use to persuade my uncle that I’m not being unreasonable in wanting to wear trousers?
Why not compromise,
wear a short sexy skirt with no underwear when the rabbi is around.
You can still wear your jeans, trousers, and man pants or whatever when he is gone.
Thanks for the ‘suggestion’ – and for confirming my suspicion that most religious men have an attitude towards women that can best be described as adolescent.
You probably have not received a response from a religious person since you asked that question on Rosh Hashana when the religious people did not see your comment.
I haven’t had time to read all the comments here. Just wanted to share my experience. When I was learning at Midrashet Rachel, I used to storm into the Rabbis office with lots of questions. Once I asked him “Why can’t woman wear pant.” He replied simply, “Loose pants, made for women? Halachically — No Problem. BUT, if you want to live in a community where they take Torah seriously, women don’t wear pants.”
I really appreciated his honest, yet realistic answer.
It doesn’t make perfect sense and even seems somewhat unfair, but this is the way it is. We have some very important things to fight for. Pants is not one of them, IMHO.
I don’t like “labels” either. I am “just Jewish” as well. My children go to an “RZ” school where most (if not all) the parents are openly “modern”. I work in a “haredi” school where I’m certain there are “closeted modern” parents. In cold weather, I wear leggings under my skirts. Most of the time, my skirts (due to comfort but to also prove a point about true tzniut to the hypocritical hanhalah) are ankle-length. Yesterday, I wore a “short” skirt (for me, just past the knee) and the fact I wear leggings was obvious. The little girls stared in fascination at seeing me wearing pants under a skirt. I simply feel I’m taking a practical approach to all this. I live in a cold area and am not about to freeze my legs off in skirts and tights. Today, I’ll find out if there was any feedback from them.
i think that the way we deal with this issue is very ‘american’ and largely a social construct to make it easier to dismiss a community of Torah Jews.
However, I do see the potential for a serious breach of tzniut in pants.
But in Israel I found skirts that hand pants attached, Halachiclly permissible pants that fell in a kosher way and an awful lot of women wearing pants under skirts – just because.
I hope this carries over the Atlantic.
Shevi,
Yes, in the winter I pull my black socks up and then put black leggings on over them. I really don’t see how this is any different than wearing tights, it’s just warmer. What is the big deal with that? I’m not trying to make a statement. Just stay warm. But I have to admit, that if I were wearning a shorter (but still tnuzit) skirt, I’d freeze in stockings because of how others may perceive my attempt to stay warm.
The problem is that skirts are generally considered formal wear for women, just as a business suit would be considered formal wear for men. Let’s face it, if you’re dressing for comfort, you’re not likely to put on a skirt and tights! Yet while women in orthodox communities are expected to wear skirts all the time, there is no equivalent rule for men: if women were required to wear skirts and men were required to wear a suit and tie, that would at least be fair. But men are permitted to wear whatever they want – they can wear jeans all day, and nobody complains that they are improperly dressed. I wonder if it ever occurs to them that women might like to relax in a comfy pair of jeans.
All religions were primarily intended to control and regulate the behaviour of women. Can you think of any religion which has as many rules for men as it does for women?
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Firstly wearing a skirt is manditory for tznius reasons. Many people say some pants are more tznius than skirts but that is not true unless the skirt is a mini skirt. Halacha is that you are not allowed to show the crack of your two legs above the knee so no matter how tight the skirt is you do not see the crack (I’m not saying tight skirts are so tznius). Referring to what someone said in one of the posts, that skirts do no apply to Israeli orthodoxy, well aren’t they also Jewish.
hey,
personally i would love to find a girl that wears pants and is shomer negiah–its just that there arent too many out there. if you find any-feel free to let them know about me.
What about pants under skirts…? I’ve definitely seen orthodox folk where I live and in Israel wearing them..
What do all of you expect women to do for a living? Stay at bais ya’akov forever?
I know frum scientists, dentist, physicians, nurses, vet techs (animal nurses)- they have to wear slacks for safety reasons at work.
Get real.
Covering hair is 100% not biblical. RamBam lists it in the Mishneh Torah as a rabbinical prohibition together with a few other items such as feeding your husband trief or having sex with a man when you’re niddah. None of these things are directly forbidden by the Torah, but apparently the Rabbi’s forbid them based on the principle of not placing a stumbling block before the blind. And it’s interestingly worded also, a married woman shouldn’t go to the shuk with her hair uncovered.
I have a close friend who is a BT. She dresses totally tznius, but she is not shomer nagiah. It confuses me, but it just goes to show that a girl can always wear skirts and not be shomer. My external jewishness is also like that. I wear a kippah and tzitzis all the time, and I’m not shomer, though women always get out of my way when I’m walking in Jewish areas.
Which bonfire in Philly was it?
I just want to say this article is phenomenal. It is the same thing I have been arguing for the last two years!!
A. Why are pants less tznious then a mini skirt?
B. And why are pants the “red line” issue for men in regards to dating?! Its preposterous!
Thank you so much for this article, finally someone tells it like it is!
Frankly, if I were you, I would soundly reject the prospect of spending my life with the kind of man who would discount me as a marriage prospect merely because of my attire. If this is where his head is at, who wants him?
Consider: Marriage is a lifetime commitment. Do you want to spend your life with someone who is rigidly conformist and judgmental?
I see there are already a lot of comments, but I thought to add a bit of detail to the ‘comfort’ issue, for the sake of anyone who’s never worn skirts.
Have you ever tried walking over a baby gate, when you are only 5 feet tall, in a skirt?
If a skirt is voluminous enough to let you walk with normal gait, then it flies up in the wind. If it is narrow enough not to fly in the wind, then its too narrow to chase your children effectively.
Many, if not most, women’s legs rub together painfully, even if not overweight. The only solution? Wear pants or shorts or leggings under your skirt. Try that in the summer – its HOT.
Other’s have mentioned the issues about sitting cross-legged modestly and such already.
Ever try playing with your children, enjoying a playground with them? Try going down a slide in a skirt, sitting in the sandbox, hanging upside down on a monkey bar, etc.
Horse-back riding, skiing, ice skating, playing in the snow, rock climbing, etc. I can’t tell you how damaging it was to me as a teenager to feel I was a bad person for wanting to do these things while having to wear pants to do them safely. And all the frummer girls wearing skirts scrunched into the rockclimbing harness – how was that any more modest?
That said, the pants that may be halachically permissible don’t solve all of these problems. Harem pants and loose pants are so low at the crotch, they won’t stop legs from rubbing together. Only modern style pants are truly comfortable, to me. I know that none of this has much to do with the halacha… but when I read ‘pants are just more comfortable’ I am not sure that the breadth of what that means is evident to everyone. I’m not sure that the sacrifice that is made by skirt-wearers is evident. It is a sacrifice. Wearing a skirt is much more complicated than wearing pants… which is probably why men switched over to pants so long ago.
I have no problem with a philosophical commitment to skirts only (even though technically, pants designed for women only should pass muster). What I have a problem with is the social intimidation factor, i/e/ the idea that women are bullied into wearing skirts because they are afraid of the social repercussions if they don’t. I work in an office where I do a lot of lifting of files and bending down, etc. and I also travel to and from work on the El train. As such, long skirts are not practical because 1) they are easy to trip over while working; and 2) they are murder on the EL stairs. I have actually come close to breaking my neck thanks to tripping on my skirt hems on the stairs. I find pants –semi-dressy, business pants, that is, not jeans—infinitely more practical and sensible. And quite simply—and I notice no one has mentioned this—I derive a lot of enjoyment from wearing pants! And if skirts-only policy is going to alienate women from observant Judaism, I think it is time seriously to re-evaluate it.
I don’t understand why the Israeli pants + knee length skirt combo isn’t more popular in the states…
I think an older woman of menopausal age should wrest anything she wants that is in good taste. I don’t think those women are worried that they appear as sex objects because they’re past childbearing years, and I don’t think orthodox men would even want to look at an older woman anyway.
Hi, I’m completely new to this debate and would really like help and advice – I hope someone sees this message as no-one posted for nearly a year.
My daughter is 4 and half and goes to a mixed (girls and boys) Jewish school where the girls’ uniform is tunics/skirts for those aged 5 and over. Currently she strongly prefers to wear trousers and has done so every day since January this year. I have talked to her about her wearing the school uniform from next September but she doesn’t want to as she prefers trousers to run around in. She’s the only girl in her class who wears trousers (although the uniform rules allow for trousers for the nursery aged girls).
The trousers she wears are loose legged, elasticated waist ‘jogging pants’ (same as the boys do – they are in no way tight fitting).
Is there any halachic reason that girls under 12 can’t wear trousers? thanks…
First, I’m not a Rav, but from what I’ve read it’s all relative to what’s normal in the general society that you live in. Today, pants can’t today be reasonably considered beged ish in any western country including Israel. The Dati Leumi school my daughter goes to here in Jerusalem allow loose pants up through first or second grade. If I were you I’d find a good Syrian Rabbi to talk to, as I’ve found they tend to be the most intellectually honest. Here’s a test, before you talk to any Rabbi, ask them what the size of ca-zayit ( an olive portion ) is to be yotzeh mitzvat matzah on Pesach. If they tell you anything other than the size of an actual olive – don’t trust them.
Orthodox individuals need to step out of the “rabbi said we can’t” and find out the truth about what halacha has to say.
In accordance to halacha, girls are allowed to wear pants. Period. That’s the truth but not many would be willing to break from society and the pressure of family and friends…that’s sad
One more thing…what’s even more ridiculous is that a woman who chooses to wear pants UNDER her skirt is considered to be modern as opposed to wearing NOTHING under the skirt and totally showing everyone your bare legs is considered more MODEST in the community. That is just ridiculous.