Heshy,
I know you’re going to spear me like Pinchas for saying this, but I also know that my points in this letter may be novel enough to make it onto your blog. I know you’re generally a good hearted guy, and that you seek to better the world, but I wonder why you hate the Yeshivish World so much? I wonder how you, the most forward thinker in all of the frum-critical blogs could jump on the bandwagon of Kollel-Lakewood-Yeshivish-Hatred? Unlike the Charedim rioting in Israel, beating up women on buses, and telling you what or what not to do, we are simply sitting and learning. We are not trying to force anyone else to take on this lifestyle, it is a lifestyle after all. We are not having parades, or shoving it down your throat.
When did all of this “Kollel is BS” ranting start anyway? I wonder if the same people, including yourself, would feel the same way about folks getting University funding to study things that are not useful to much of anyone? Did you know that there are universities that have doctorates in Talmudic studies? Why are they not the butt of your scorn. Why are we, who choose to basically live the life of a lifelong academic become the scorn of many religious and non-religious Jews. Where is the scorn for other academics? Should we trade our black pants and white shirts, for corduroy’s and tweed jackets? Would that change your opinion of us?
Just as those who study “useless” subjects within public universities, institutions, and whatever other folks wish to take “government handouts” to do so, we do as well. To look at us and say “oh they have 7 kids, choose not to work, and are on welfare” is fine, as long as you look at everyone else who does the same thing, yet does harmful things instead of studying intently on a subject they care about. Just because you don’t care about Talmudic studies, doesn’t mean others don’t care. I could care less about Japanese Cinema, Feminist Theory, and African History, but there are those that choose to spend years studying those subjects in order to understand them from every angle, while taking government handouts to do so. Why don’t you allow us some leeway? We are your own people, yet you mock, scorn, and continue to attack us for doing something that is akin to any other advanced study of something you fail to understand.
It is time that you stopped being self hating and started to see the positive side of things. It is possible that advanced Talmudic studies are good for the Jewish people, maybe you could change your scorn and analyze it for a minute. Instead of jumping on the Kollel Hatred Bandwagon, try to open your mind like you’ve seemed to open it with gays, chabad, and women of the wall.
Sincerely,
A fan in Kollel without filtered internet
Dear Kollel Guy
Every once in a while I get a letter such as the one above, it’s good mussar, but there are many holes in the thought process. Most academics are not on welfare, they are taking public money’s that the state or federal government has set aside for education, arts, universities, grants, etc…It’s not every day that you meet a lifelong academic who has sought to put their family through starvation in order to study Japanese Cinema. It’s not every day that you meet an academic willing to do their research for nothing, Kollel seems to foster the idea that Torah is worthless – hence the reason kollel pays nothing. If Kollel was such a lofty goal and so needed by the Jewish people, one would think that those learning in Yeshiva would be paid quite well to do such things. Instead, the yeshivas rely on welfare, section 8, and wealthy parents to foot the bill. Where is the responsibility in that?
I think the biggest problem I and many others have, is the way that many in the yeshivish world are against government assistance, yet hypocritical in their acceptance of it. The same holds true in Israel, we don’t support the state, yet woe to the state that doesn’t support us. There’s also the fact that these Kollel guys that are in perfect working condition, have decided that thousands of years of Rabbis working in regular industry is a thing of the past. Rather than leave those government monies for people who need it, people who can’t work, they squander them for their own little gain. I’m not sure that Torah lishmah, trumps honesty and kindness, to me the kollel/welfare thing seems like the worst thing that an erhliche yid can do. I wish I could compare them to academics who study subjects I don’t care to understand, but in my case of joining the bandwagon of yeshivish hatred, it’s not got to do with the study materials. It has to do with the fact that they are not a system which can support themselves.
If Kollel guys were supported from within the community and not taking welfare, then it would be a novel thing. Apply for grants, raise the funds necessary to learn in Kollel, but to take public funding for something which does not benefit the public and takes away from those in real need, that I cannot support.
Find out more on 4torah.com
Watch out, Heshy. If you keep going down this path you’ll start wearing a “Nathan Slifkin is my Rabbi” t-shirt
Never!!!
I’m a kind of mushy touchy feely go to the woods and do my cheshbon hanefesh type of Jew, but no one wants to hear about my non-rational, non-intellectual, non-traditional ways of doing Jewdom. It’s best to keep it impersonal, make everyone think you’re a hater, when in reality no one really knows my true views. All in the good name of satire.
I’d say go with it. If you’re lucky they’ll ban you, and your hit count will go through the roof 🙂
> We are not trying to force anyone else to take on this lifestyle
No one not already part of the Yeshivish world. For kids who grow up within it, the mssage is very clearly that if you don’t spend your life in kollel (for a boy) or supporting your husband while he sits and learns (for a girl) you’re a failure.
> Why are we, who choose to basically live the life of a lifelong academic become the scorn of many religious and non-religious Jews.
So where are the academic papers written by kollel guys? What new understanding of the development of the Talmud have been produced, or new understanding of it’s structure, social impact, content, etc? Where are the review boards that determine if your research and conclusions are valid? Where is the competition for funding that limits the funding to worthy projects? Most importantly, where’s the accountability?
> To look at us and say “oh they have 7 kids, choose not to work, and are on welfare” is fine, as long as you look at everyone else who does the same thing, yet does harmful things instead of studying intently on a subject they care about.
So you’re saying, “We may be bad, but at least we’re not druggiers or criminals.” Okay, but that’s not a very high bar.
Plenty of drug-seekers hold it together and work hard at remaining functional so they can support their families
The issue with welfare is that the rest of the taxpaying public is supporting them.
And while they may not be forcing this lifestyle on anyone outside the community, they are forcing everyone else to pay for their lifestyle.
It is a freeloading culture that will cease in a generation when the money has dried up. Eventually daddy’s business will have no feasible heir to take it over.
Agreed
I think the Kollel guy makes a good point but something is missing. sure learning gemara in yeshiva is admirable, learning all day is what we should strive for (Ve’hagisah bo yomin valailah). It becomes an issue when they think they fail to realize what is needed.
In the time of the gemara there were many amoraim who had other professions in order to sustain themselves. the rambam was a doctor, the abarbanel was a Spanish diplomat and advisor to the king on many matters including investments and the like. to say that these people have the biblical requirement to spend their lives in kollel with no job making pennies and barely getting food on the table for their children is an issue.
if you need money you must work (this never takes away the aforementioned requirement to learn though). also one is not allowed to be sustained from tzedakkah (unless he has no choice, ones first choice should be to get a job).
Kollel is not BS the ones learning are doing a most admirable thing but at the same time if they need money, to take it all from welfare food stamps wic medicaid section 8 and all that, with no intention of ever moving up is a problem.
(also they are being supported by their parents and in laws, next generation wont have that luxury all relegated to a life of work and empty kollels, it will be a cyclical situation that would be problematic).
Not to mention a certain famous woodcutter and another famous day-laborer
Also, academics have to publish. Kolel guys produce what, exactly?
More ignorant adult Jewish males who contribute zip to society or to their family financially. All they need to do is rattle of a devar torah which no one understands or realizes is complete illogical fairytale mental acrobatics and then eat their same old kuggle and chicken Shabbos dinner with their lock-step friends
It’s interesting that those who are so quick to bash kollel don’t know so much about what goes on here.
Most guys don’t stay in kollel indefinitely. You could count the grey hairs in the bais medrash. Those that choose to learn for more than five years, twenty years, whatever, are the ones who are real and on whose Torah the world stands.
In our “backward” Bais Yaakovs we were taught to value and cherish Torah study and a Torah home, not that if we didn’t marry a kollel guy we were failures. None of my friends or family members were made to feel like that, and as my own husband begins his college education, he doesn’t feel that way either.
We don’t ideally encourage mooching off the government and the in-laws; our Rosh Yeshiva told us to find any honest way possible to fund our own learning without relying on others, which we were Baruch Hashem zoche to do for eight beautiful years. (yes, by living with less and working hard and being happy with it all)
We’re really not such evil, narcissistic, greedy, holier-than-thou, clueless people. We’re just trying to be good people, to make a difference in this world and to uphold our value system with pride and with dignity.
In my travels, yeshiva folk are some of the most kind, compassionate, moral, intelligent, honest people I’ve met, though I can’t say I’m unbiased, and from what you all seem to say, I guess the ones you’ve had the pleasure of meeting are quite the nasty lot…
I know this post was probably pointless, because who’s actually going to read, believe and internalize it, but it makes me sad to read so much from so many different sites knocking my chosen (yes chosen, not forced upon) way of life, with no one to stick up for it, because they’re all too busy, well, learning. I read and I shake my head, thinking, wait – are they talking about me, because this is not how I feel, not how I live, and not how I act, believe or talk!!
I love every one of you, no matter what your beliefs are, and it devastates me to know that in return I’ve only earned your contempt, for the crime of choosing to serve Hashem in this particular manner.
Shkoyach- i hope some of the haters will listen
You are not evil, but the system encourages bad things. A large family with one wage-earner who has no college education is at a serious disadvantage and is likely to fall into severe poverty without government or family assistance. That’s the simple fact. That is why dependency is so very high among the kollel subculture. The rate of families in it living on WIC, Section 8, Medicaid, SNAP and so in is indisputably among the highest in the nation. Your Rabbi may have told you to avoid this if at all possible. Good for him. The fact remains that many, possibly most, cannot.
People go to real graduate schools with the sometimes optimistic expectation that by living on Ramen now they will reap financial rewards later. It is an investment. If grad school does not pay off they still have a post-secondary education.
The yeshiva/kollel system offers none of that. In fact, it denigrates education in all real subjects in favor of pure religious studies. Students leave without literacy, without skills, without the experience necessary to succeed in the wider world, with a large family. This was never how Jews lived in ages past. It is a modern innovation or corruption if you want to be unkind.
It is not hatred to point this out. It is simply acknowledging the hard, cold facts of the matter.
Shabam!
Kudos Heshy – it’s nice to see non-satire comments respond to such arguments. It’s odd that there is an element of jewish society that doesn’t get the idea of “forced tzedakah” being wrong.
:Don’t raise my tuition payments because you want to learn in Kollel” actually shuts people up in a fascinating way.
What about Yeshivah University. Is the yeshivah part, similar to a university in structure? Can a student, say what would be at a university MA or PHD level not get grants, stipends, funding etc.. to continue education?
Yeshiva University is a fully-accredited university. As such its programs have to meet the strict standards of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. In December it was warned that its accreditation was at risk because its methods of evaluating student performance were out of compliance.
Not to mention that spending one’s 20’s and 30’s living on welfare, or minimal wage without starting to put away money in a retirement account, or for your children’s future educational needs (both private high school, and G-d forbid college) means that you will never be able to get ahead of the bills, mortgage, and your retirement will be spent working in dead end jobs, or dependent upon government handouts and food banks just to put the minimal requirements on your table.
You think we have too many schnorrers coming to shul every morning? Just wait 30 or 40 years till all these kollel yungerleit become Alterlite and can’t afford to feed themselves or their children or grandchildren who will remain in kollel. Your actions, dear Kollel wife, are selfish in the extreme to the Jewish Nation at large. Expecting us to support you and your offspring through untold generations yet to come, by refusing to save now and work hard while you can, just counting on the good will of us who busted our butts at college to send you check after check to your gemach’s, yeshivas, and talmudic institutions.
I don’t think your statement is very fair and very clearly comes from someone who doesn’t know me or my community. I am not asking for your handouts nor am I living on welfare. I work very, very hard, as does my kollel learning husband. We live our lives to learn Torah and to give to others. I can’t speak for myself, but every one of my friends and neighbors spend their waking hours giving, giving, giving. When they don’t have money to give, they’ll give in other, meaningful ways.
We pay taxes, give charity and put away money for our childrens’ future.
I don’t appreciate you (and it’s not just you, truthfully, it’s many, many people some of whom will tell me to my face how much they despise my “freeloading, welfare-sucking lifestyle” which they presume I live by the mere fact that I mention the word “kollel”) condemning me to a life of eternal begging because you are not satisfied with my income level.
So many of us learn for a few beautiful years, go on to college, get a good decent job/ start a business and catch up to our peers in a number of years.
Do some live their whole lives learning, on government and tzedakah handouts? absolutely.
But that doesn’t make us all selfish and lazy, and it doesn’t even necessarily make them selfish and lazy. They are some of the hardest working and selfless people I know.
Is the system unsustainable and do changes need to be implemented? Definitely.
I just ask that you respect me for the life I chose to live, as I aspire to serve Hashem, to live every day to its fullest, to make a difference in the world by helping others and to raise my children with a passion for Torah, with good midos, with a deep desire to give to others and with the creed of never, ever condemning another person.
Thank you for trying to understand my point of view and perhaps someday you can come down for a Shabbos and get to know some of us on a less superficial level.
You are a very atypical kollel couple. And if your Rosh Yeshiva told you to find any honest way possible to fund your own learning without relying on others, he was a very atypical Rosh Yeshiva.
Dear Kollel Wife,
Regretably, I am intimately familiar with your community. I can easily believe you work “very, very hard” but I fail to see how your husband can work so hard if he is “shteiging away 14-18 hours a day.
If as you say, you take no money from the gov’t, or local charities, and live totally off your meager income, well good for you. The fact is however that the “overwhelming majority” of Kollel families ( I don’t believe >90% is an underestimate), live off their relatives, food stamps, section, 8, welfare, and God knows whatever other forms of public support they can scrounge that they are not morally entitled to. That, to me is, a perversion of Torah. Chazal said better to be a flayer of skins in the market place than rely on charity. And, yes that makes them terribly selfish, and lazy.
You may be putting away for your childrens’ future, but the few hundreds, or even thousands of dollars you sock away annualy are a drop in the bucket of their actual needs. I notice you didn’t mention your own current needs and future retirement needs. If someone isn’t putting away the maximum allowed by law in thier 401K, or 403B, or not investing wisely in the stock or commodities market with an eye for their long term goals, they are doing themselves a disservice, and Society a disservice, ’cause who do you think is going to have to pick up your slack when you are in your 60’s and 70’s and beyond, and you can’t pay your rent, or medical, or food bills? Us, that’s who, either through increased tax burdens, or multitudes of shiluchim knocking at our doors, innudating us with (e-)mailed requests, and interrupting our davening every morning in shul where we can’t get one page done without someone sticking a hand in our face already.
Just admit it already, Kollel, except for a fraction, (I’ll be generous here, maybe 500 full time learners in total) is a social, economical, and yes religious failure. It teaches complacency, laziness, dependence upon others, and a general attitude of disrespect for all others, ESPECIALLY, those who do not learn full time, yet swallow in total the idea that it is the ideal lifestyle and scrabble to support their sons and daughters when they cannot afford to do so. I understand your view in total, on a deep level, and I reject it in totality, as a total perversion of what Hashem truely wants of us. Derech Eretz Kadmah L’Torah.
The issue with welfare is that the rest of the taxpaying public is supporting them.
And while they may not be forcing this lifestyle on anyone outside the community, they are forcing everyone else to pay for their lifestyle.
It is a freeloading culture that will cease in a generation when the money has dried up. Eventually daddy’s business will have no feasible heir to take it over.
As a PhD student, I think Kollel would be a much more respectable institution if it implemented some of the things we have in academia. Especially for those who spend numerous years learning, I don’t see why there couldn’t be a peer-reviewed journal. It would help legitimize what those who spend all day learning actually do and provide something tangible to the community that helps to support them. As someone who has very little firsthand experience or knowledge of how Kollel works, I would assume that just like in academia, not everyone is cut out for a life of ‘scholarship’. This is a reason why so far people pursue PhDs and even fewer obtain tenured positions. Actively pursuing scholarly activities each and every day for years is a challenge. I have trouble with a system that assumes all of its young men are up to such a task.
But if they learn too much secular knowledge they will realize they have wasted their lives studying bronze age fairytales and marrying people they don’t know and would never have fallen in love with without being setup in the name of conformity.
you dumb idiot i stopped reading your response right after you said if its so important it should be better funded. If it was shelling out a quarter million dollars a year people like you would be sitting there and wasting the money. and ur time.