Kashrut authorities have been able to make money on certifying all sorts of odd things that once never really needed a hechsher. We all joke about the kashrus of water, fruit, and even toilet bowl cleaners. This is no joke, it’s serious business — it’s business-business. You start with products that the marketplace needs, and then you create new marketplaces. In fancy speak (Harvard Business School, in particular) it’s about “creating new markets through service innovation.”
But there is a huge area of kashrus that has not been well covered by any certification body. And some think that kashrus agencies are simply leaving money on the table. The new service innovation: Safe-Treif certification.
Everyone knows that modern orthdox travelers make up all sorts of safe-treif rules when they are on the road. I’ve heard many, such as: Sushi can’t be that treif — it’s an uncooked piece of otherwise kosher tuna. Most bagels are probably not that treif either. Just avoid the ones with asiago cheese. And a poached salmon is not even on the same grill as the mamesh-treif stuff, so that’s probably kosher enough — especially if you tell the waitress to double wrap the baked potato (since there’s nothing more kosher than using lots of aluminum foil). It’s pretty hard to treif beer, whiskey, and the free asian-flavored wasabi snacks they serve at the hotel bar. Cookies can’t be that treif, most people don’t use lard anymore. Heck, if you pick out the chicken from the salad, and don’t order the pepperoni on the pizza, then what can be so bad? Maybe it’s safe-treif?
Or maybe not!
But how would you know?
Some predict we’ll have a safe-treif certification within the next 5 years where you can identify how to keep “kosher-enough”. Kosher-enough is when people in the community will still eat in your home, but you don’t have to pack all that crappy kosher-on-the-go food when you travel.
Do you think this will happen?
Kashrut authorities have been able to make money on certifying water, fruit, and even toilet bowl cleaners. Could they figure out a way to make money on certifying treif foods too? I bet they are thinking about it.
Safe treif puts hecshers out of business. Not going to work. If anything, they should put certified treif stamps on certain foods, then the m.o. people won’t have an excuse to eat them.
Actually, you see something similar in Israel. When looking for a kosher place to eat, I saw notices on Tel Aviv restaurants saying that the “bread, rolls, cake are from kosher certified bakery,” but the restaurant itself isn’t kosher. I wouldn’t eat there, but I’m sure some people would. And when many of us go for coffee or get take-out coffee in non-kosher places, that’s what we count on.
Many people don’t know this, but according to raw Halacha this is actually permitted. (Well, not the way Hesh described the “It’s probably kosher” thing. You need significantly more knowledge than that.) Assuming one is aware of the the various methods of food production, and knows ALL the ingredients of a particular food, he can eat it.
My dad tells me that before the days of hechsherim, the way you knew something was kosher was by looking at the ingredients, and knowing what to look for in specific food items.
Restaurants are another story though. Although in theory there doesn’t HAVE to be a problem, 99% of the time (I’m talking only about the places which do not serve anything openly treif) there are significant problems.
Still, even in the event that you do manage to find a restaurant or non-hechsher food which seems to meet all the “Assume it’s kosher” qualifications, there is really no excuse to rely on probability unless you’re stuck somewhere and simply don’t have a choice. Especially today when there are kosher products everywhere.
These days even looking at the ingredients won’t tell you what’s in heavily processed foods without at least a minor in chemistry. Michael Pollan’s rules – nothing with more than five ingredients, nothing you don’t understand, nothing your grandmother couldn’t identify – is good advice regardless of religion.
Haha! You’re right. I’m thinking Halal comes close. I mean how bad could it be already? It’s not pig. Ok, that’s all I know about halal, but still.
No wine – no meshuval issues
Camel is treif but halal – Don’t order the One Hump or Two Stew
Meat with milk is treif but halal
Halal and kosher slaughter are both done by cutting the throat. But specific technical details are different. For instance some halal slaughterhouses decapitate the animals which is outside Jewish tradition. Diseased animals are not halal; I don’t know if they check for lung abnormalities exactly the same way as schochets do. But they don’t salt their meat.
Halal and vegetarian means the same thing as kosher and vegetarian – no animal products.
And so on.
While many halal products are probably within the original laws of kashruth millenia of custom, accretion, OCD and internal politics have moved the boundaries significantly. Add the tendency of Jewish sects to arbitrarily forbid things based on dislike for what other sects do and it gets much more complicated and difficult.
Given a choice between halal and completely unsupervised the observant would be better off with halal.
Thank you OfftheDwannaB. I think you are the only one who gets the satire here. Everyone else is obviously scratching their beards and digging their thumbs trying to figure out if this idea works. Briskers! (that’s meant to be an insult — but you can try to draw a chiluk between the chefza of brisker and the gavra of brisker, if that helps you kler the pshat.)
The way I see it, if kashrus agencies can monetize water, fruit, and toilet bowl cleaners, then they can monetize treif too. After all, even our money has the “in G-d we trust” hechsher. And money is the ikkur zach.
I guess you’re facing “the artists dilemma” now too.
Btw, is that you in one of Heshy’s videos talking about that guy named Tucker in Yeshiva? Thats a great story. My friend claims he had a chissidishe kid named Itche Meier Dicker in his class in elementary school.
Yes on the dilemma, I’m just poking fun and writing satire in support of a blogger who appreciates the ironies in our humor-laden religion. No on the video. But I remember the Rebbe he is referring to.
IT’S all a matter of persspective. To a Lubavitcher Meal Mart products are “treif”. To a Satmar OU is treif. I think it all ads up to the degree of your indoctorination hammered into your keppie as a kid. There is nothing to be scared of. You will not be punished for eating pistrami @ Katz’s. AS for myself I have culteral aversion to shell fish but I have to admit that the squid sushi is quite tasty.
If kashrus is just a matter of perspective, then so is murder and child molestation. You only think it’s wrong because it was “hammered into your keppie” that it’s bad. Really, like you said – it’s just a matter of perspective.
Right?
You can try to generalize and simplify anything you want, but realize that your own perversion of the subject is the only ‘matter of perspective’ here.
Kashrus has it’s pretty definite guidelines set forth for us in the Talmud. Although there is a degree of variation in how to apply the rules and how far the leniencies extend, the basics are all there and unanimously agreed upon by all Orthodox Jews.
Any “perspective” which disregards the Laws of kashrus has nothing to do with Judaism, and is exactly as kosher as pig itself. Let the “perspectives” stay in meaningless philosophy classes.
Enjoy your squid sushi.
agree
But there ARE different grades of hescher, correct? Not everyone excepts the same one. Like mainly I know of the specific one with milk, there is a MUCH stricter one with milk that some people hold by.
“Different grades” mean different ways of applying the same agreed upon rules.
For example: Milk from a non-Jew is forbidden, because the rabbis were afraid that the milk would be from a non-kosher animal (dispite the claim of the non-Jew that it’s cow’s milk).
For non-Jewish owned milk to be kosher for a Jew, the milking must be supervised by a Jew.
Today there is an FDA which makes it highly improbable that any company would lie about their ingredients, nevertheless, there is a dispute among the Rabbis whether or not probability itself can take the place of the Rabbinic decree to have supervision.
There are many such examples. And with all the recent changes in the way food is produced, the laws can get quite technical and complicated, sometimes making it difficult to assess what the Rabbis intended for a situation as ours, as most of the laws were stated in a context of ‘We all have chickens in our backyard’. Mass production and food laws really didn’t exist.
Yankel, I just saw this, thanks. :^)
I think it’s more correct to say there are different degrees of intolerance. Reuven might reject A and B; Shimon might reject B, C, and D; Levi might reject A and C. Does this mean that Shimon eats a higher grade of hechsher? Or simply rejects more?
I’d caution the equivocation of being more strict with having a higher grade. It’s too easy to slip down the slope where we define the measure of religious observance by what we reject.
I think we should make hechsheirim for music. I mean Avroham Fried is glatt kosher , Lipa is less kosher , and Mattisyahu is safe treif.
Like.
Stuff like Yanni doesn’t need a hechsher, “what could be in it already?”
Remember all the rumors about how he composed his music? Wow, us yeshiva guys were pretty gullible…
not true… matis is has a much bigger platform to spread frum yiddishkeit… and I will go as far as to say for a man to be in his position a semi rich, secular musician performing in on the road constantly bars & clubs and being grammy nominated gold record selling & famous whom hot hippy women throw themself at him everyday and staying frum keeping his mishpacha close. he is a much bigger tzaddik in my opinion. so what if hes not in a kapota and borsalino anymore…
so what if hes not in a kapota and borsalino anymore
Neither were Isaiah, Moses, Akiva or Hillel
A lot of what you mentioned is not “safe treif” but 100% kosher according to Rabbi Abadi (kashrut.org). But ya still gotta worry about stuff like bishul akum, gevinat akum, etc. (Stuff I recently stopped caring about…)
Gevinat akum – With all due respect, the Chazal did not live in an age of the FDA, USDA and industrial food production. Venomous snakes do not end up in commercial dairies or even kitchens. If you don’t insist on cholov yisroel milk a bunch of other objections disappear.
Bishul akum – If it’s a serious concern why are we even writing in extremely Low forms of German like English or Yiddish?
R’ Feinstien rules that with the FDA, cholov akum is indeed permitted.
However he adds: “Bal nefesh yachmir” – one who is sincere about G-d’s will, should be stringent regardless.
“Bishul akum – If it’s a serious concern why are we even writing in extremely Low forms of German like English or Yiddish?”
I don’t get this. What does language have to do with bishul akum?
So then I guess R’ Feinstein’s sons who are also part of the gedolim aren’t considered Baal Nefesh as they eat what you call Cholov Akum. Of course the fact that you called it CA is already a clear misunderstanding. R’ Feinstein’s Kula did not matir CA, but paskened that FDA certification was sufficient enough to make the milk CY, which he did through some very interesting halachic connections.
That aside, the very fact that people say that a “baal nefesh” should be machmir is just more nonsense to try to coerce people into siding with the machmir opinion regardless of any halachic or even logical evidence. We don’t see a push for people to be “Baal Nefesh” to not cheat on their taxes and stop smoking, but chas v’shalom they should have milk that a large number of Rabbonim say is perfectly fine.
Synapse,
I think R. Ovadia Yosef outlawed smoking (I may be wrong), and certanley more than 1 gadol has already paskened that it’s forbidden to start if you aren’t already addicted.
No one ever said cheating on your taxes was OK, the only heter you’ll find for avoiding taxes is in a case where there a specific “Jew Tax”, like many arab countries had (and probably still have).
The shulchan aruch and later seforim all seem to hold being machmir is always better, though I’m with you on this, and feel that when everybody starts being machmir, it becomes the norm and eventually anyone that isn’t machmir is considered as transgressing.
In my area, almost everyone keeps CY and even those that don’t, still maintain CY kitchens/utensils in case anyone else or their kids want to eat over.
You meant the Rama. And that was because of his jurisprudence. Or if you prefer, his hashkafa on psak. But that doesn’t say anything about how prevalent he thought chumros should be.
“That aside, the very fact that people say that a “baal nefesh” should be machmir is just more nonsense to try to coerce people into siding with the machmir opinion regardless of any halachic or even logical evidence.”
You do realize that R’ Moshe said “Bal nefesh yachmir” on this very Teshuva. I hope you’re not suggesting that you think you know better than him. That’s a pretty dumb thing to say.
While it’s true that people should be more careful with monetary and tax laws, as well as avoid unhealthy behavior, this has nothing to do with “Bal nefesh yachmir”.
“Bal nefesh yachmir” is not a general and all encompassing rule which requires everyone to be stringent all the time. It relates almost specifically to heterim which although well-grounded, are non-conventional, or side with certain reshonim and not others.
The best Gevinat Akum / Cholov Yisrael story I recall was when a frum BT friend of mine came back from a summer in Israel frustrated that he could not find cholov yisrael milk anywhere.
A. Nuran, Yiddish is High German.
True. I meant to write “extremely low forms like English and high forms like Yiddish”.
Why havent you posted the maccabeats video?
He did
Over on the Stormfront homemaking sub-forum, they’ve got a thread that goes for pages on how to plan meals while ~avoiding~ ingredients with a hescher of any kind.
If they really started slapping Rabbinical approvals on all the treif foods foods too, the white supremacist homemakers would be FLIPPING OUT! ;^D It’d be worth it for their discomfiture alone.
Hechsherim on white supremacist food is a great idea — like when the Palestinians declare Jewish holy places as Islamic holy places. It’s a free and easy way to piss people off without really doing anything. Great idea. Let’s have haskamos on the racist forums and hechsherim on their recipes — I’d call it the O-KKK.
YIKES!
Yayin mevushal is as relevant as cholov akum. The reasons are simply no longer of concern in the US of A.
If I catch a waiter mumbling a blessing to Buddha as he opens the wine, I will worry. But until then…
Luckily I don’t like wine enough to care. It’s just the principle.
Avrumy,
It’s because of ignorant comments like this that we have chumros to begin with. Cholov akum is still applicable, the modern heter deemed it fit because of strict govt standards.
I challenge you to find me 1 REAL heter for yayin nesech from a REAL posek.
Avrumy and Phil, you guys should explain to me what you’re arguing about, LOL. :^)
In times of old, wine was a major part of idolatry. One served his idol by pouring wine or moving it around in certain ways. Anything used in any idol-worship is forbidden to use/benefit from.
Therefore, if a non-Jew touches wine it becomes forbidden to a Jew. We are unable to know what his intentions were, and therefore cannot know if it is “Yayin nesech” – “poured wine” (meaning poured for idol worship).
In todays day and age, idolatry is all but non-existant. I guess India, China and perhaps some places in Africa still have some traces, but that’s really it. (Some believe certain sects of christianity to be idolatry as well). Furthermore, pouring wine is no longer used in worship even in those few remaining religions.
Regardless, the decrees of the Rabbis were meant to stay no matter what, and are here to stay no matter what. No Orthodox Jew disregards or rationalizes any decree, regardless of it’s seeming irrelevancy to current times.
Thanks, Yankel. :^)
Or whether or not it has any actual connection to the truth.
If you meant “Our human perspective of what appears to be” – then absolutely.
But if you mean “truth” as in ” The reality some people perceive today in Dec. 2010 – until it changes AGAIN for the bajillionth time” – then you need a ‘reality’ check.
“True” means eternal. If it’s gonna change, it ain’t “Truth”.
Your method of determining what is or isn’t true, is inherently flawed, as it has proven to be a constantly changing method.
But buddhas aren’t gods.
And if they were, nobody would sacrifice wine to them, since Buddhism is absolutely dead-set against all intoxicants.
Do they believe in one higher being, or is the Yin Yang thing all about the duality of everything in all realms? (Not that this has anything to do with yayin nesech)
The Tai Ji Tu is a Chinese symbol with no essential connection to Buddhism.
There are many forms of Buddhism. I’m not a Buddhist scholar and can’t really speak to the differences between the schools. But to the best of my knowledge…
The buddhas are not gods. They are or were human beings with superior perception and wisdom.
There may or may not be all sorts of supernatural creatures. Different schools vary on this. They all agree that what’s important is cleaning up your own drek and taking full advantage of the precious and rare state of being human. If there are demons and gods (small “g”) they have their own problems which aren’t yours. If they take a personal interest and distract you from more important things in your life, get back to work, ignore them and they’ll go away. And have compassion for them because they’re trapped in their own troubles just like you, maybe worse than you.
One Supreme Being? The answers I’ve gotten were along the lines of “If you want to believe in one out of fear that there isn’t one or because you hope a god will rescue you from the consequences of your own stupidity you believe for the wrong reason.” and “If there is, you’ll be able to listen to the Deity better if you quiet down the chattering part of your brain. Here’s how to do that.”
My contacts with Buddhist practitioners have been like that. Lots of checks in N/A column on the form, lots of practical advice on how to get your mind right. Very little intricate theology. They probably recognized it’s a trap I’m prone to falling into 🙂
It’s been around for a long time, longer than Judaism and has been in many places, affected by contact with many cultures, so it’s hard to generalize. My knowledge is very cursory and mostly practical – how to deal with Buddhist friends and their relatives and understand a little more about them. I’ve heard that the book The Jew in the Lotus is a very good treatment of Jews who have investigated Buddhism. Haven’t picked up a copy.
“It’s been around for a long time, longer than Judaism”
*You mean longer than the way Judaism is practiced today. Judaism goes back to Adam, and there was a continuous existance of individuals who served G-d according to the beliefs of Judaism from Adam until Abraham, who began the more organized religion which it eventually developed into.
“They probably recognized it’s a trap I’m prone to falling into”
This I didn’t really get. Are you saying that awareness of and contemplation on the infinite one inhibits clarity of thought and perception?
Let’s leave the 6000 year old Earth to mythology, shall we? And the contortions about how Isaac could have followed the rules of a Torah which hadn’t been written due to special Divine protection. Different discussion for a different day. What is now considered normative rabbinic Judaism developed later.
In any case, the point I was making was that I am too prone to over-intellectualize and spend time with my nose in a book or having glib banter. It can absolutely get in the way of seeing and doing important things.
“Let?s leave the 6000 year old Earth to mythology, shall we?”
No we shall not.
“And the contortions about how Isaac could have followed the rules of a Torah which hadn?t been written due to special Divine protection.”
It wasn’t due to “Special divine protection”. It was due to the same Torah in it’s earlier stage being taught to him by Avraham, and being kept to in accordance with it’s meaning – at his time.
“What is now considered normative rabbinic Judaism developed later.”
Yes, that is true. I don’t think anyone would argue with that.
“It can absolutely get in the way of seeing and doing important things.”
Well, it’s productive if it gets you to a conclusion you truly believe is correct, which you can then act upon the right way. To just ‘do’ without proper direction is also a waste of time effort and life.
“Let’s leave the 6000 year old Earth to mythology, shall we?”
No we shall not.
“And the contortions about how Isaac could have followed the rules of a Torah which hadn’t been written due to special Divine protection.”
It wasn’t due to “Special divine protection”. It was due to the same Torah in it’s earlier stage being taught to him by Avraham, and being kept to in accordance with it’s meaning – at his time.
“What is now considered normative rabbinic Judaism developed later.”
Yes, that is true. I don’t think anyone would argue with that.
“It can absolutely get in the way of seeing and doing important things.”
Well, it’s productive if it gets you to a conclusion you truly believe is correct, which you can then act upon the right way. To just ‘do’ without proper direction is also a waste of time effort and life.
Mahla,
OK, the class today is chumros 101.
Over time, the rabbis have constantly put in stricter measures to avoid having ignorant people transgress halacha due to assumptions. These are called chumros or gzeirahs(rules stricter than the letter of the law). They feared that if an ignorant person saw someone doing one thing, he may infer infer that something similar may be OK, even though it isn’t.
Some have been instituted during the time of the talmud, such as milk and meat, other later on in history. Though many have no basis and may no longer be applicable, they are still in effect today because it has become common custom to follow them.
The only way of revoking and etablished gzeira / chumra is by having a rabbi of greater or equal stature do so. As no rabbis are arrogant enough to lay such a claim, we have many outdated chumros that are still followed.
It’s important to state that not all chumros were accepted by all Jews. For example, not mixing matza and water on passover (gebrokts, matza balls) or eating kitniyot (beans, corn) on passover. Jews coming from Spain and the middle East don’t follw these, while Eastern European Jews are split.
Other gzeirahs such as not mixing milk and chicken are accepted by all observant Jews.
Back to the topic at hand. Milk that was milked and processed by non Jews is considered as non kosher as the fear was that milk from non kosher animals may be used as a substitute. In recent times it has become permissible to some, who accept a ruling that the government standards in the US are strict enough to ensure this doesn’t happen.
Jewish processed milk = cholov Yisrael (CY), non Jewish milk = Cholov Akum (CA).
Yayin nesech is wine handled by a non Jew. Since wine was once used as libation during idol worship which would make it forbidden for us to consume even if it’s inherently kosher, a gzeirah was put in place forbidding us to use it. Even in countries where the non Jews didn’t worship idols (such as muslim countries), the decree was accepted as well, which makes it forbidden to do so even today.
Along comes “rabbi” avrumy and decides that it’s OK to drink this wine, just as it’s OK to drink CA. Exactly what the rabbis tried to avoid.
Thanks for responding Phil. Also, thank you for explaining about the milk. I’ve always wondered what the cholov Yisrael people think non-Jews might do to the milk.
Whoooaaaa there is a MAJOR distinction to make between humrot and g’zerot. G’zerot are binding. Humrot are not.
And quite the opposite. The rabbis tried to avoid Avrumy drinking actual yeyn nesekh! The reason we maintain the g’zerah today has nothing to do with the intent of the rabbis in instituting it!
Really, if you’re gonna criticize the guy, do it right.
“The reason we maintain the g’zerah today has nothing to do with the intent of the rabbis in instituting it!”
The whole point is, we ultimately do not understand why Chazal instructed us certain things. Even if we are told a reason, it doesn’t necessarily mean that’s all there is. It means that at the time of the decree this was enough of a reason to instate it.
And where did he say that chumros and g’zeiros are the same?
Yankel/Jon,
We can take this even one step further. A failed gzeirah can turn into a practiced chumra. A perfect example would be guys going to the mikvah every day. After the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash, there wasn’t much reason to keep the laws of Tumah.
The Rabbi’s tried to institute going to the mikvah after every time one had s@x, as a way to keep the rabbis in yeshiva instead of always after their wives (in the words of Rambam “like a rooster”). The gzeirah didn’t work out and accordngly, it was dropped. Yet today, many chassidim won’t put on tefillin unless they went to the mikvah first.
But here is a perfect example of a gezeira which can appear to be solely for the purpose of keeping Tumah/Taharah alive, and years later, with the discovery of the Zohar, and the works of many mekubalim, we see keri as a major deterrent to ones learning and davening. Although halachically it is permitted to learn without mikva, it is highly recommended, and highly beneficial for one to be careful about mikva.
I’m saying there is far more to every chumra and gezeira then revealed to us by Chazal. The reasons they gave us, are “names” or hints of reference, to a much greater idea – while simultaneously being valid reasons in their own right.
Take shofar on Shabbos. Why is it not done? Because we’re concerned someone will carry it 4 amos in r’hr to learn how to blow.
Where do we see a concept like this in all of Torah, that in order to prevent ONE ignoramus from chilul shabbos – B’shogeg!!! (which chances are he’d do anyway at some point), we cancel one of the most important mitzvos of the whole year, FOR ALL OF KLAL YISROEL!!
There has to be more to it, but we don’t have to know what it’s really about. Our job is to recognize them as the interpreters of H-shem’s will, and follow what they say regardless of our understanding.
Yankel,
OK, good points you make. But I still have trouble with the idea of glorifying chumras, I’m not too sure they were meant to be in place for the general public.
Back to the mikvah example, I see many people that won’t daven without going to the mikvah, yet they have no problem skipping ahead of the minyan, talking during kaddish and chazaras hashatz, etc. Seems extremely hypocritical to me, and certainly for any outsider visting our shul.
I find than in Lubavitch (probably many other sects as well), the “Yesh amrims” in the shulchan aruch are the only things that get practiced, everything else seems to be disregarded.
Look, the chumros and extras only appear to be taking place of the real stuff. In reality, if they wouldn’t be there the person would be doing nothing at all.
Sure, a guy who talks during davening has a long way to go, but the fact that he goes to the mik and is makpid on “chassidishe” shechita doesn’t hurt anybody. Even if he’d decide to stop with the chumros, the talking and general lack of seriousness would continue just as before.
But this is an old problem. The samach mem goes for what counts. He stops Jews from doing the things which are real, and which really make a difference. The chumros don’t present such a threat to him, so why shouldn’t he pick his battles wisely?
Okay, I have a question (as usual, I know, LOL). Do Jews believe that God expects each Jew to keep God’s commandments perfectly? Like obviously there are some that cannot be carried out as instructed in the absence of the Temple, such as the sacrifices. But each and every law that a Jew CAN keep, is it that God EXPECTS him to keep it perfectly and believes that is possible?
Ultimately, Yes.
Perhaps only after many failures and attempts at perfecting oneself, but ultimately every Jew is capable of keeping all the commandments relevant to him/her.
Devarim 30:11-14: “For this commandment which I have commanded you today (the Torah) is not hidden from you and it is not distant. It is not in heaven [for you] to say ‘who can ascend to the heavens for us and take it for us so we may listen to it and perform it [the mitzvahs]?’ Nor is it on the other side of the sea [for us] to say ‘who will cross the sea and so we may listen to it and perform it [the mitzvahs]?’ Rather, the matter is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to do it [keep the Torah and Mitzvahs].
You do your part, truly, and he sees to it that you succeed.
Yankel,
Someone that protrays himself on a chumra level makes it look all the worse when they do anything wrong.
I understand that nobody’s perfect, but before accepting baseless chumras and trying to enforce them on others (as many tend to do), start with doing what count.
Looks a lot worse for aq guy in a shtreimel and peyos to get busted with a hooker than some guy with a kintted/ leather kippah, even though the leather kippah guy may very well be more frum in observing basic shulchan aruch.
So if a guy’s frum-ness isn’t up to par, you think he should shave the beard’n payis?
Yankel,
I just think that before people hop on the chumra train, they should worry about basics.
I know people that won’t drink milk unless it’s 212, won’t eat any meat that hasn’t been shechted by a Lubab, will not listen to non Jewish music or watch TV.
The same people steal, cheat, lie, extort, mistreat others, talk throughout kaddish, and those are only the things that I know about.
Anyone BT or non religious guy observing such as person is likely to be turned off forever, I’ve seen it happen as recently as last week.
What good are all the chumros if you have no base? Kind of like eating condiments without the main course. Even worse when you preach these chumras to others.
Phil,
“I just think that before people hop on the chumra train, they should worry about basics.”
Ok, what if they guy isn’t interested in the basics. He’s a leidiger, remember? He talks durring davening and spews lashon hara right’n left.
Would you suggest to the guy that he drop the few chumros he actually keeps?
Yankel,
I just think that before people hop on the chumra train, they should worry about basics.
I know people that won’t drink milk unless it’s 212, won’t eat any meat that hasn’t been shechted by a Lubab, will not listen to non Jewish music or watch TV.
The same people steal, cheat, lie, extort, mistreat others, talk throughout kaddish, and those are only the things that I know about.
Anyone BT or non religious guy observing such as person is likely to be turned off forever, I’ve seen it happen as recently as last week.
What good are all the chumros if you have no base? Kind of like eating condiments without the main course. Even worse when you preach these chumras to others.
Phil,
“I just think that before people hop on the chumra train, they should worry about basics.”
Ok, what if they guy isn’t interested in the basics. He’s a leidiger, remember? He talks durring davening and spews lashon hara right’n left.
Would you suggest to the guy that he drop the few chumros he actually keeps?
Yankel,
If a person is interested only in chumras and not in the basics, he either needs to go back to grade 1 or visit a good shrink.
Such a person can blow their node into their beard and wipe their @ss with their kapota as far as I’m conerned.
Hey, I’m with you on the status of the hypothetical dude. I just want you to acknowledge that in the unfortunate absence of anything else, it’s better to be holding to the chumros than to nothing at all, as insane or non-sensical as the guy might be acting in the big picture.
There are plenty of people out there who are pretty lousy Jews, I mean almost no davening or learning, and who for some random reason go to the mik every day.
It’s interesting to note that many of them come around in the end, and attribute it to the mik. It was sort of that ‘time’ every day where they knew they were doing something good, and that gave them some level of connection to G-d, even if they didn’t understand why or what.
Yankel,
I’m not talking about hypothetical here, I unfortunately see a decent number of such people doing this sort of thing on a daily basis.
Yes, at the end of the day, one who does something, is better than one who does nothing, even if all he does is a chumra.
Whether or not they are going to come around when they get old isn’t really my point either.
You have people that preach the lifestyle and live it as well. These are prime examples of pous Jews (chassidim, for the lack of a better term).
Then you have people that preach to everyone about one thing, while they’ll blatantly transgress much more serious aveiros. Fakers, hypocrites, etc.
Whether a local big shot Rabbi offers bags of cash he wants laundered, or whether it’s the guy that learns chassidus every morning before davening, but has no problem chasing less frum people out of a shul, to me, there all in the same boat.
Now, all I need is a torpedo…
Yankel,
If a person is interested only in chumras and not in the basics, he either needs to go back to grade 1 or visit a good shrink.
Such a person can blow their node into their beard and wipe their @ss with their kapota as far as I’m conerned.
Hey, I’m with you on the status of the hypothetical dude. I just want you to acknowledge that in the unfortunate absence of anything else, it’s better to be holding to the chumros than to nothing at all, as insane or non-sensical as the guy might be acting in the big picture.
There are plenty of people out there who are pretty lousy Jews, I mean almost no davening or learning, and who for some random reason go to the mik every day.
It’s interesting to note that many of them come around in the end, and attribute it to the mik. It was sort of that ‘time’ every day where they knew they were doing something good, and that gave them some level of connection to G-d, even if they didn’t understand why or what.
Yankel,
I’m not talking about hypothetical here, I unfortunately see a decent number of such people doing this sort of thing on a daily basis.
Yes, at the end of the day, one who does something, is better than one who does nothing, even if all he does is a chumra.
Whether or not they are going to come around when they get old isn’t really my point either.
You have people that preach the lifestyle and live it as well. These are prime examples of pous Jews (chassidim, for the lack of a better term).
Then you have people that preach to everyone about one thing, while they’ll blatantly transgress much more serious aveiros. Fakers, hypocrites, etc.
Whether a local big shot Rabbi offers bags of cash he wants laundered, or whether it’s the guy that learns chassidus every morning before davening, but has no problem chasing less frum people out of a shul, to me, there all in the same boat.
Now, all I need is a torpedo…
Jon,
Yes, a gzeira is something that is more binding than a chumra, but in reality, it’s a glorified chumra. Let’s take 2 examples:
1) Chicken and milk can’t be mixed for the fear that an ignorant person may come to think that milk and meat is OK. This is a gzeirah.
2) Acoording to shulchan Aruch harav, the reason behind kitniyot is not because the items can be used for flour and not because they shared wheat bags with bean bags. The actual reason given is because cholent contains beans and barley. If an ignoramus saw one eating a bean stew on Pesach, he might think that barley is OK on Pesach as well. Sounds similar to the reasoning behind chicken with milk gzeirah, yet it’s only a chumra.
Somtimes it seems to me that kashrut is more of a continuum than a discrete, binary function. The greatest need for a discreet, lowest common denominator level of kashrut is in communal feeding, like shul, restaurant, and catering kitchens.
I can’t imagine why more Jews aren’t frum. Who doesn’t want to be constantly told what an idiot he is, compared to people who believed in spontaneous generation? Who doesn’t want to wrestle all day with ignorant misunderstandings of other cultures, and have everyone around him flip out and insult him when he points out that the emperor is naked?
There are tradeoffs to every strategy. On one hand we got cultural continuity even if it isn’t nearly as pure and unaltered as the pious believe. We got a continued identity and the behaviors which help us survive isolation and dislocation.
And I like to think of us as the wild control group monotheists. The two larger branches of our tree might abandon that principle. The Lubavitchers might drift towards “Schneerson is God” or at least “Schneerson is the Hidden Imam” in a generation or two. But for the most part even the most tenuously Jewish will stubbornly believe in at most one deity.
On the other hand we gave up a lot including the things you mentioned. We pay a very high genetic price for our inbreeding. We do not adjust quickly to a changing world without abandoning cultural practices wholesale. And we are forced to maintain beliefs and practices which, if not actually divorced from reality, have moved out of the house and started dating other ontological precepts.
I think I made a crack one time about perhaps the Rebbe’s hanging out with the Hidden Imam, LOL — but the parallels between the messianic Lubavitch thing and the Hidden Imam thing are pretty awesome.
So how do you explain all the Jews flocking to yeshivos and kiruv programs?
Isn’t it strange that they could want to be part of a group of people who take offense at attempts to pervert their beliefs, which have kept them in existance as a nation throughout history?
Neither I nor any other “frummy” have any problem with honest questions and points being brought to the table and discussed. What is distasteful is when people attack and disrespect a belief system based on nothing but the desire to do so.
Or the desire for truth, or for mental health…
The major point, though, is this attitude of “shut the hell up and do as you’re told. You can’t possibly understand these texts, leave that to people who lived thousands of years ago! They have magical reasons for telling you what to do.”