To set up that is, I’m constantly thinking about people I can set up and I have come to the conclusion that girls are so much easier to set up than guys. In fact, while checking my hot bod out in spandex today I was thinking that the shidduch crisis may be more about the lack of guys who actually go out, rather than the amount of them. I have loads of single guy friends, but they are all extremely picky, one won’t travel more than 20 miles to date, the other only wants a supermodel and the next one isn’t really frum, but wants a frummy girl because she will understand the culture more. Then When I think about my lady friends and acquaintances I sigh because they are all quite easy to set up, give me a guy with a pulse and a head on his shoulders.
It’s starting to bother me when I meet guys who aren’t getting any younger who are so narrow minded when it comes to dating. I know, not everyone can be like me (I don’t really date – so I don’t have such issues) but even if I see a picture I don’t find particularly flattering I will still give it a shot – most guys think I’m nuts for this philosophy, but I look at dating for marriage like New York State looks at the lottery – “hey you never know.”
Sure, the ladies want a hottie too, but they are easier to get to go out on a date, come to think of it – only two of my friends have ever gone out with girls I tried to set them up with and one of them married the girl, so I’m 1 for 2 in shidduch making statistics.
Whenever I tell a girl about a guy I think might be good, it seems like they have already said yes, but tell a guy the same thing and he needs to do a whole back round check and of course he needs a full body picture to make sure that she isn’t too fat, it’s a shame because I don’t want to appear like the scheming shadchan who sets up his friends with overweight girls, but how am I supposed to set up chunky ladies?
As sexist and sex driven as I sound, I’m much more about personality and passion than looks. The last girl I dated, I was not attracted to her for the first 3 months we knew each other and I used to call up my buddies and say things like “I wish she was hot, because she’s so cool” although this may be an argument against shidduch dating because it doesn’t allow for natural organic attraction.
From The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
Proving once again how insecure people are.
If she’s good enough at bumping up his fragile ego, he doesn’t need to show her off to his friends.
so missed the point…
LOL, we’ll see if this shows up twice or if the comment was eaten the first time around:
There is a big difference between propping up a man’s fragile ego and building up a man’s morale. The caliber of man who seeks the one is also totally different than the sort who appreciates the other.
I advise women to keep well away from the first sort, since a man with a fragile ego invariably adds mistreatment (or outright abuse) of his partner to his repertoire of “things that make me feel better about myself.” Yuck. :^(
On the other hand, it is stable men who are right in the head who are naturally attracted to women who exhibit morale-building qualities.
To build up a man’s morale is to build up his confidence and help him feel truly good about himself. Good about himself as a partner, a father, a husband, a person, and a man. This is something that, as a loving partner, I consciously strive to do. Every woman has it in her to help make her man a mensch.
Building up a man’s morale is a big part of doing him good, and not harm, all the days of his life. :^)
Mahla, you have a lucky guy.
Amein. Well said.
Tell your man to treat you right. He’s got a rare, wise woman.
…worth more than rubies
Thanks everyone. :^) My man treats me like a princess because I treat him like a prince. :^) Last Halloween was our sixth anniversary!
Mahla, 1st of all I have to say, you always have the best comments. 2nd, I agree with you, but I don’t think a book from the 1940’s made that distinction.
It’s like how Lewis Carrol saw his fascination with little girls. Everyone today knows he was s*xually attracted to them, but bec modern psychology wasn’t around he saw the attraction in a holy, religious light.
I wrote a piece on him here:
jewishdepression.blogspot.com/2010/12/analyzing-great-depressed-lives-part-3.html
OfftheDwannaB, I will totally check out your piece in a minute here! :^) As for Lewis Carrol I have quite a soft spot for him since my father and sister are mathematicians. As for myself, to this day I have not memorized my multiplication tables, LOL. :^)
Well first off, the book wasn’t from the 1940s.
Second, given the other things the man was writing at about the same time it’s clear he was more than aware of the distinctions.
how might that last girl feel when she reads that u didn’t find her attractive?
Oh she knows exactly how I felt, she’s one of my best friends – we dated for almost a year.
she may b your friend but honestly, i can’t believe that that wouldn’t hurt- not that she’d ever tell u. it wouldn’t make her feel very confident, esp. if she’s still single.
Man, I’d hate it if someone said that about me after we dated. Then again, I worry that’s how it was with every guy…
Mainly, though, I’m just glad I do not have to deal with shidduch dating.
The thing is, I like girls who are cool enough that when I tell them the truth while we are dating that’s cool – this girl was and still is the coolest girl I know in the world and I was able to say crap like that when we were going out.
did the attraction ever come?
Physical attraction is extremely important. But popular conceptions of beauty aren’t. What matters is whether you find the other person attractive. If a guy abdicates his own sense of attraction to society’s obsession with skinny girls without real curves, then they’re throwing away the chance to meet tons of beautiful and amazing women. Marylin Monroe, a size 16, could never get a date today in the Jewish singles scene. People would call her a fatty.
You’re right about that. My wife is a slender size 8/10 and says Marilyn Monroe was a fat pig. She looked pretty damn fine to me in that centerfold of Playboy. Real men like curves, but not muffin tops or cankles.
Speak for yourself! This Real Man loooooves me some cankles!
the wealthier the guy, the hotter the wife.
(not kinder or smarter but USUALLY hotter – check out any Palm Springs/Arizona Pesach program – hot Chani via Hocker mecca)
AND
the wealthier the girl, the cuter the husband
(not hot, greasy or a hocker USUALLY. Just cute and probably a learner)
Hotness never equates to being able to hike with a full pack 20 miles a day nor does it mean they are cool or smart.
gevalt.
I’ve found that girls are pickier than guys. I’ve refused to go out with one girl w/out even meeting her but at least five girls have refused to go out with me w/out even meeting me including three who live 15 minutes away from me.
There are so many important criteria that are left out of the investigative shidduch process. I am happy to list some of them:
Thong or bikini? (briefs are a definite thumbs down)
Spit or swallow?
Shave, trim, or full bush?
Favorite position?
Are 3somes a possibility?
Will you watch me and your sister?
There are many more, but the date only lasts so long.
LOL! How about:
How many dildos do you own?
Can I watch you use them?
When we have guests for Shabbos would you touch me under the table?
Would you mind if I touched our guest (the wife idiots) under the table?
I noticed you have hairy forearms and a mustache. You don’t have hair nipples too do you?
If a man asked me “Are threesomes a possibility?” I’d tell him “Sure! The thought of you being with another guy while I watch is really hot to me.”
ok thats just wrong
Bet it’d shut ’em up fast though, LOL. ;^)
That’s right! What’s good for the goose, as they say… 😉
It would be just your luck if he called your bluff and said “Sure. I’m cool with that.”
Hhhmmmm, good stuff! And here are some questions to ask right back:
briefs or boxers? what size? The only correct answer is Xtra large 😉
measurements – length n girth, please?
shave def applies here too…its only considerate, especially if the woman does that for you!
have you been tested?
how long do you last? minute men need not apply…
…u know, just off the top of my head
have you been tested?
Skip that one. The answer will be when he was last tested by his rebbe on a gemara.
see below…Hesh got what I meant 😉 n any dude that doesn’t get it, clearly has led a sheltered life, which could be good or bad, depending on what a girl is looking for
When I got engaged the girl had me get tested and that was one of the most funny experiences in my life – I went to the free std clinic in the hood wearing my yarmulke.
Nice!
Um… XL just means he’s got some cushion for the pushin’ nothing in regard to his equipment.
True. That’s why the next question is there…asking for precise measurements 😉
I’m a pretty easy going guy. I have to find her attractive, obviously, but I don’t demand model perfection either. I’m happy to see where most things will go as long as there’s a personality click. But it’s probably cause I’m an Out of Towner. I’ve dated girls with whom I had a great time and she enjoyed it, but will not even go past the second date for some pretty minor stuff (objectively so). I’m pretty sure NY girls are just high maintenance or finicky at this point.
In New York it’s tough because there’s so much choice, hence my reason for not moving to New York for marriage – it seems that out of towners get married quicker because they can’t just wait around for years until the right one comes along.
You are a bit bias we always are more critical of our own sex, my wife says the exact thing you say about girls. You are criticizing the guys because you see your own mind set in them.
“I wish she was hot, because she’s so cool” although this may be an argument against shidduch dating because it doesn’t allow for natural organic attraction.
So if I ignore a womens looks, although I am not naturally physically attracted to her, can I still have a “natural organic attraction” towards her? How do you go against nature?
This is the problem with Shidduch dating and why guys are so picky when it come to dating. Most shadchanim use this theory of “natural organic attraction” and because most guys don’t really follow this same theory, the guys don’t want to waste their time if they don’t see a picture, etc…
They should create a frum facebook for shidduch dating. It would save many guys and girls out there a lot of time and money.
Lol. I would agree about the facebook picture idea for shidduch dating, except for the fact that sometimes pictures tell you didly squat about what someone actually looks like. I, for instance, look nothing like my pictures. And once I went out with a guy who’s picture I saw before the date. In the picture he looked…well let’s just say..pretty bad. When I actually met him though he was actually hot stuff ;).
What we really need is a secretive system that allows boys and girls to check eachother out without the other knowing. Like someone I know went to check out a girl he wanted to go out with (who happens to be my bff) at her job just to make sure he was attracted to her. And he was. Though I have to admit, this does sound pretty violating and unfair (what if she was having a really bad hair day?! ) But, for the most part, real life is sooo much better 🙂
I think that they should do speed dating for the frum world. Those “dates” would serve as preliminaries, where the initial spark of attraction can be assessed.
People should be paired with their (mutually) highest choices.
People who want to be frum about things afterwards can have their top choices formally looked at to determine hashkafic compatibility (to keep things somewhat in the ballpark). I would have the top 3 or 4 looked at.
Afterwards the real dating can begin.
Hmm…sounds interesting. But after rethinking what I wrote I realized that it is a bit unfair. Just as speed dating is kinda unfair. I don’t know about you, but I need more than 5 seconds to warm up to a date. Same goes for guys.
Also, in terms of looks, I think people could be cheating themselves out of really great relationships. How many times do you see those total babes standing next to Mr. NOT McDreamy? (And vice versa, though it’s a lot more rare.) I’m sure it wasn’t their intention to marry the uglier of the two, and though you could argue that they were indeed attracted to one another, I think a lot of it comes from getting to know the other person and becoming attracted to their personality. Something only time can accomplish. I dunno, I guess thinking about ways to improve the shidduch system makes you realize why it works. Who’d’ve thunk?!
What I find funny, or maybe sad, I’m not sure which, is that in the frum community there are BY girls (thats a type not necessarily the school itself) that fall into 1 of 2 categories.
1)Either they are taught nothing or the bare minimum as far as their own sxuality, and definitely about pleasing themselves as well as their husbands (assuming they do not break negiah); or
2)are totally the opposite than they appear. My brother was lucky enough to meet plenty of the second category. He would go for pizza with them in their denim skirts and white blouses, then go back to my folks’ house and I’d hear the moans & groans from his room. Quite a few were NOT from any MO type homes either, their fathers were Rabbanim in the yeshivas.
Women are just as picky as men if not more so, but do to the uneven distribution of good looking men and women they settle for less.
On average, women are more attractive than their male counterparts so they are conditioned to expect less. In most relationships men are the lesser attractive of the two, so their expectations are to pursue women who are more attractive than they are.
I was wondering about the BY girls who are also sexually active. What about the whole thing with the virginity and the ketuba, or do their husbands not even realize the wife is not a virgin?
Reminds me of a joke:
A baalas teshuva goes to the Rebbe before her wedding & tells him of her lurid past. She is concerned her husband will divorce her when he figures out she’s not a virgin.
So the Rebbe tells her that before they consumate the marriage, she should take some of the skin from a salami and put it inside her to give the illusion of it being intact. She thinks its nuts but follows his advice.
The day after the wedding, the Rebbe sees the new husband in the Bais Medrash. He asks him, “Nu, vos gut?”
The husband replies, “Ya, mit a hechsher nuch!”
There must be a serious number of girls lying to their husbands about their virginal status out there, otherwise there would be a huge increase in the divorce rate in the frum community. Either that or the groom is just too dumb to figure out she’s not a virgin on that special night.
Reminds me of a great joke:
The BT bride tells the Rebbe of her not so pure past life, and is worried that her new husband-to-be will figure it out and divorce her. The Rebbe says to take a piece of skin from a salami and stuff it in there and the husband will never know the difference.
A day later the Rebbe sees the new choson in the Smedrash and asks “Nu, it vuz gut?”
The young man replies with a smile, “Ya, mit a hechsher nucht!”
Fyi – just because there may not be signs of it being the first time, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
Why are girls so much easier to set up than guys?! Because they have nothing to lose!!! Of course guys are picky! They’re paying their hard earned money to show the girl a good time. Us women don’t have to pay a dime, so sure we’ll go out. How bad could a first date be? It’s free!
Not if you’re going out with me – I expect you to hike mountains.
Lol! You should right that on your shidduch resume. “Requirement: Expects girl to hike mountains…often.” 😉
FeistyFrummy, why is it that girls don’t pay a dime? I am married for some years now, but when dating, I always offered to pay/treat/split/etc. and never expected to have a free ride. While I wouldn’t stand for a dude taking advantage of the fact that I’m willing to pay my share, I always made sure to make it clear that its not their money I’m after…
And even putting money aside altogether, a girl being set up has just as much on the line as a guy. What you’re offering a gentleman is the pleasure of your company and you are giving him your time and attention. Any girl out there in the dating world should know her worth and realize that time spent with her is worth something.
Hey esther. Yeah I totally agree with you. In fact, at the beginning of my dating adventures I offered to split the cost (I wasn’t as nice as you though cuz I didn’t offer to pay the whole way ;)). But after a while I found that each time I offered, it was extremely insulting to the guy, like it took away his manhood or something…so I stopped.
But I should mention that I didn’t offer to split because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t a gold-digger. After spending just a little bit of time with me I’m kind of assuming that that fact would become pretty clear. I offered to split because I knew how hard it was for guys to keep coming up with the dough to pay for their dates, especially if they were traveling/renting a car. I personally don’t like being the reason someone goes bankrupt. No siree!
And about giving a guy my time…I personally believe that everyone is “worthy” of my time no matter who they are. True, it’s kind of wasting time if the guy doesn’t match up on basic values etc. But still for the most part, all people who tell me that “they’ve got the guy for me”, tell me what an awesome incredible guy he is. So basically I have no reason to say no. Also, I am a firm believer in giving the guy a chance to impress me himself rather than some random woman telling me all about how his parents are both rocket scientists…thank you very much. 😉
Lmao “some random woman telling me all about how his parents are both rocket scientists” so true!
Yes, potentially any guy should be “worthy” of your time – the gist of what I was saying is that your time (your company, you…) is worth something, as opposed to nothing, and should be valued by the guy you’re out on a date with.
for all those looking for tips to pick up THE ONE, watch ‘How i met your mother’.
I agree that sometimes guys turn down really good girls for dumb reasons. I’ve been on both ends of the spectrum. One time a potential date just flaked mid-process but later on I realized Hashem was really saving me through this guy’s lack of cooperation 😉 On the other hand, guys I have really wanted to date didn’t work out either, and there have been times that I turned down guys as well.
“Shallow” guys care about looks the way “shallow” girls care about career. You see more couples where the girl is hotter than the guy, because he probably has other things that make her happy, whereas he likes her looks. Girls would much rather have an average looking guy with a great personality who keeps her happy than a really handsome guy who is selfish and has the type of personality that would not work well in a relationship. In fact, many of us are willing to overlook things that guys aren’t, such as a few extra pounds, if everything else clicks (plus, the few extra pounds don’t necessarily mean his face isn’t nice-looking)
I think girls are also more willing to date because we have the pressure to get hitched by a certain age or we are labeled “old maids” who risk ending up alone, especially in the Orthodox world. The Frummer she is, the younger this “old maid” label appears. For the more modern, I’d say some girls don’t worry until their late 20s. Middle of the road I’d say mid-20s, and very Frum start to worry by 22 or so, maybe even younger. I’m still young, and I’m Modern, so I’m not in panic mode at this point, but my eyes are open. I know the pressure that’s out there, and it’s hard.
Guys can afford to be more picky, because 1) they are paying 2) they definitely have more leeway with age. Guys can work on their career first and get married a few years later than girls without the pressure. For most groups, I’d say a guy is still “good” by almost everybody’s standards if he’s under 30. Then again, I’m Modern Orthodox so what do I know? Also, guys are more looks-oriented than girls. Not calling anyone shallow, but that has been my general finding. This would explain the turning down of potential dates.
We all contribute to the difficulties though. Picky girls have “I want Mr. Custom-Made” syndrome, a man who fits every category on her unrealistic list. Picky guys have “I’m no 10 but I won’t settle for less” syndrome. Then again, I can’t say it’s better to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, where people are so desperate to get married that they settle for somebody they really have no connection with. That just leads to a lot of trouble down the road. I say the best bet is to be realistic but open-minded. If you are a 45 year old guy, don’t expect a 22 year old supermodel. And no girl should expect a walking Brad Pitt with millions of dollars from his business, the personality of a charmer, and the intelligence and learned abilities of a Talmud Chacham. It’s just not happening.
Bakh, God hates me. {Pout}
My shiddukh resume says that I am looking for, and I quote: List 5 qualities that you are looking for in a life-partner: Somewhere on the spectrum of nerdiness, geekiness, dorkiness, and/or intellectuality. (I assume that I don’t have to tell the shadkhan that I want someone who is frum; that’s sort of a given, no?)
When I met with the shadkhanit herself, she pointed out that I didn’t specify an age range or how I wanted the woman to look. I told her that it’s because I don’t have an age range or desired appearance; let her be as young or as old as she is, let her look however she does, and as long as her personality is right, I’ll deal.
And yet I still cannot get a single darned date. Sigh…
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