It to happen at some point, you gotta figure that the more we talk about gays in the frum community the more services there will be for them. We are Jews after all and when there’s business’s and money to be made off a new idea we might as well do it right? Maybe after this frum gay singles shabbaton, they can have a frum bestiality lover shabbaton because that’s where they are headed…
I myself have been waiting for frumster or Saw You At Sinai to make gay spinoffs of their sites, but they have yet to do this. A friend of mine recently went to one of those modern orthodox singles weekends and he told me there were quite a number of openly gay men, I have heard that some gay guys would go to singles shabbatons just to test out their gaydar, but isn’t it a little misleading to go to a straight singles shabbaton if you aren’t straight? Kind of like that time I was going to hit up a big shabbaton while in a relationship, just so I could write about it, I decided not to go – my conscience got the best of me.
Eshel welcomes gay and lesbian traditional Jews to join us for this first-ever shabbaton, being held January 21-23 at the Isabella Freedman Retreat Center, two hours from New York City. The Shabbaton will bring together Orthodox gay Jews of all kinds (including the ex-Orthodox and ‘Ortho-curious’) to an event aimed to create a community of support, learning, growth and leadership.
The shabbaton will include shiurim, zmiros, sessions on relevant to our lives as gay and lesbian frum (or formerly frum) Jews, wonderful ‘inspiring davening, delicious healthy kosher food, and plenty of time scheduled to just hang out, sit by the fireplace on Saturday night, and get to know all the members of this growing community. This will be an informative, fun, and spiritually inspiring weekend.
The program for the shabbaton is being created by the Eshel board, which includes many leaders from the gay Orthodox world, including Rabbi Steve Greenberg, Mordechai Levovitz (JQYouth), Chasiah Haberman (Tirtzah), Miryam Kabakov (Keep Your Wives Away from Them), Erez Harari (JQYouth) and others.
All food will be strictly kosher, the retreat will be shomer shabbos, and the davening will include traditional, mechitza davening. (On the registration form, you’ll be asked what kind of davening you’d like to participate in during the weekend.) We will offer a variety of learning options, from traditional text study to workshops on a wide variety of subject. Sunday, we will also offer special skills-building sessions for developing speaking skills, how to come out to friends and family, dating and safer sex, and ways to engage with the Orthodox community about the issues that matter most to us. See below for the schedule.
Ofc ourse the food will be strictly kosher, isn’t this a “frum” event? If everyone is gay why do they need a mechitza, I wonder if Rav Moshe has a teshuva for that one? So during speaking skills, are they teaching the yeshivish lisp? Hold the truck up, safer sex, the only reason the frum community is even acknowledging the gay issue is because they are convinced they will not act on it…
Where does it say that this is a singles shabbaton or for gay singles?
It doesn’t. Because it’s not.
Of course, it’s not as ‘funny’ if you don’t add the part where we all know that REALLY it’s for singles or hooking up. The Gays are all about the sex. Ha-ha-ha.
So you’re saying that straight people aren’t all about sex? The entire media is focused on sex, frumkeit is focused on sex – the world is focused on it – why should it matter who you’re having sex with.
I was being sarcastic.
You’re the one who put that it is a “singles shabbaton.”
It’s NOT a singles shabbaton. It’s a shabbaton for gay Jews – whether partnered or not.
I was being sarcastic that YOU must be assuming that it is about sex, because YOU are assuming it is a singles shabbaton, when it has not been billed as such and includes programming that indicates that it is not a singles event.
You should really change the headline. If your goal was to be able to silence frum gay bashing, I have no idea why you would say that something is a singles event when it is not.
Because it’s satire! That’s why. Heshy is seriously the farthest thing from anti-gay you could imagine.
Did you ever see the movie trembling before G-D and if so what did you yhink.
check out this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytzzq9rwhQA
That was a really good video Yiz.
Totally sick. Another step backwards to Ancient Rome and Sodom & Gemorrah.
Why is it sick? Please explain…
For exactly the reason you yourself stated in the article:
“Maybe after this frum gay singles shabbaton, they can have a frum bestiality lover shabbaton because that’s where they are headed…”
Nate, Heshy was being sarcastic.
Nate, I take it you have not been reading Frum Satire for a long time. Heshy was making fun of this type of crap when he said “Maybe after this frum gay singles shabbaton, they can have a frum bestiality lover shabbaton because that’s where they are headed…”.
He does not actually think that.
Well then he should think that, ‘cuz thats what’s next.
And who cares, and what does this have to do with LGBT? Who the hell do you think you are to delegitimize people’s love for each other?
I dont have to be anyone important to do it. See? I did it! And who are you to say love is the penultimate goal of the world? Especially forbidden love. Everything God gave us has rules attached. How, what, when, where, who. It’s not a free for all.
Would you be asking the same question if I professed undying love, physically and emotionally, for my sister or daughter? Why not? Because its FORBIDDEN, thats why not. And homosexuality is included in the parsha of forbidden relationships.
They are not forbidden becasue “well everyone knows its wrong”, or “well everyone finds it reprehensible”, or “everyone just knows you dont screw your sister”. They are only forbidden becasue God says so! If He hadn’t said so, Id be banging my sister, my daughter, and maybe my mother as well, and I’d have you to defend my right to do it.
you mean the only reason you’re not screwing your mother, your sister and your daughter is because “god” says so? so, if “god” didn’t say it, you’d be having sex with your mother, your sister and your daughter? really? wow. bwahahahaahahaaa
my reply is below
Honestly, I’m generally pretty Libertarian about this stuff, but this is a bit intense. It’s being billed as a “frum” event with a Rabbi and kosher food and learning yet is clearly being done for the point of doing an issur d’oraysa. I have nothing against the gays. Love ’em. But shiurim about having safer mishkav zachar and trying to get them closer should not be promoted as anything even close to frum.
Being homosexual and not acting upon that is one of the greatest things one can overcome, and I understand sometimes people give into Taiva, but we shouldn’t be encouraging it. I hate to be “that guy”, but this is well “over the line.”
I know this doesn’t have to be explained, but having a taiva is one thing, but being told you cannot get married and have a life of love and family is much more complicated issue – hence the reason it’s taking the Jewish world by storm.
Because so many are misguided into thinking that a life of love is all there is. Not everyone gets a piece of the pie. Not only that, but there is no requirement to love the person you have children with, if you want to get technical about it. The gay guy can marry and have a family, too. He won’t be happy, but who says his happiness is paramount? I’m not happy not going to my office crab feast every summer. Tough noogies for me. Grin & bear it.
so it’s okay to stick some poor woman with a husbnad who, in all likelihood, will not be able to regularly sexually satisfy her, as would be his obligation?
And it sickens me that you compare living a loveless life with a crab feast-less life. How many people do you know who’ve committed suicide for lack of crab?
Great line about the suicide for lack of crab, Alex! EXCELLENTLY put!
Yes my heart bleeds for you. Once a year you do not get to eat free crab at work. You can always bring some of the kosher fake crab as a substitute. But every minute of every day for the rest of your life you do not have to “grin and bear it” without even a kosher “krab” substitute as a mediocre alternative. It never ceases to amaze me how many people can callously shrug their shoulders and say “just deal with it”. Either they cannot comprehend the enormity of such a statement, or simply refuse to rationally approach any concept that remotely comes close to bringing a question against their belief system and/or god.
Ok, granted, it’s a huge thing. But the answer is ultimately the same. It’s forbidden. So yeah, deal with it. No love for you. Cry about it, then get over it.
Having sex with a man is forbidden. Loving another human being, raising children with that human being, creating a community with likeminded human beings is not forbidden. Deal with it. And please be precise if you’re going to be judgmental and pedantic.
Well said Noni. I am going to quote that if you do not mind.
Alex you get a high five.
Life without love is not worth living my friend
I agree with this. There are certainly people who are inclined to remain single, but most people naturally desire a mate. A partner, lover & best friend to brave the slings and arrows of this world with.
I can definitely understand why, if I lived in a community where I knew I would be expected never to fulfill this basic need for partnership, I would come to feel suicidal.
Thanks, Heshy.
It was a great Shabbaton for orthodox GLBT. Amazing people with amazing stories, from all over the country. Great classes, divrei Torah, discussions. Empowerment.
The rest of you could really care less; you just like to be dismissive.
I take it back. Many of the comments have been sensitive, supportive and logical. On behalf of the frum LGBT community – THANK YOU. Eventually the haters will only have themselves to hate as the rest of the world moves on to more important things.
Moty,
Personally, I have no problem with homosexuality. Live & let live. Let them be happy!
But I acknowlege that the Torah is fairly clear in the issur, at least when it comes to the act of anal sex itself, so I understand where you’re coming from.
Still, I think you’re misunderstanding the purpose of the shabbaton. It’s not trying to get people to be more frum. It’s a gathering of people who happen to be gay and Orthodox. Those people people may or may not be sexually active. Keep in mind that only the act is assur, not the feelings.
Either way, these people have chosen to stay within the Orthodox world. That creates tremendous challenges for them, given the bigotry against them among frum people, and the community assumptions that single people should get married and have children. This is a shabbaton to help them deal with these issues. And it’s for both singles & couples.
As for the fact of there being a session on safe sex, I wish yeshivas would teach that as well to straight kids. There’s a parallel in US public schools – the debate over whether to distribute condoms to teens. There are many advocates of doing so who are also Christians who believe premarital sex is wrong. But they want to teach safe sex anyway, because even if the kids don’t live up to the ideal, that doesn’t mean they should catch HIV and other STD’s.
Should the shabbaton organizers avoid teaching safe sex just because gay sex is wrong according to the traditional view?
I’ve looked at the schedule a few times and I cannot find this mythical safe sex workshop.
It’s not trying to get people to be more frum.
Check the program on their website, there’s a session on “moving towards orthodoxy”. I think it’s gay honeypot kiruv – very good looking, well-dressed rabbi comes to your house with a blowtorch to kasher your kitchen.
OMG, gay honeypot kiruv, LOL!
To be fair though, they have not only a session on “moving towards orthodoxy” but also such divergent topics as yoga and “the formerly frum phenomenon.”
This event is NOT a singles event, I’m not sure where Heshy got that idea. It doesn’t say that anywhere on the site as far as I can see. I can guarantee you there will be people there who are gay but not participating (or wanting to participate) in mishkav zachor, plus lots of lesbians for whom that particular prohibition doesn’t apply. Do your homework before you bash an event that is built around spreading Torah to gay and lesbian Jews. From what I hear there is actually no safer sex workshop actually happening (they seem to have not taken one mention of it off the site, though)… but even if there was, who’s to say if it’s for men or for women? Or if it’s from a pikuach nefesh standpoint of trying to teach about HIV prevention for those who inevitably will engage in this act (which is what I think it was intended to be)? Saying that teaching about safer sex is encouraging gay sex is like saying that teaching about HIV prevention or pregnancy prevention in schools will cause all the teenagers to go and have sex. Or wait, do you believe that as well?
By the way, what the event ACTUALLY is, is the first time 135 frum lesbian and gay people (and some people who are ex-Orthodox but still connected to the community, plus some who are potentially ba’alei teshuva and are coming because they want to become more religious) are gathering in one place to learn, daven, and support each other. The lack of community and the isolation are the things that contribute to many frum gay people attempting suicide, going off the derech completely, or even ending up in straight marriages that are based on deception (where neither partner will be fulfilled and ultimately both partners and all the children will be hurt when the marriage falls apart.) I’d rather see gay Jews with same-sex partners who are helping them grow in torah & mitzvos, the way my partner and I do for each other, than to see them feeling so isolated they have to throw all of Judaism out the window. This event may in fact help countless more mitzvos take place in this world because it will help show people they are not alone and do not have to choose between being gay and being Jewish but instead can try to find a place in the religious world even if it’s a struggle at times.
Just Another Frum Lesbian, those were all really great comments. Thank you for commenting!
Oh my gosh, I am truly confused.
Okay, for the ex-Orthodox or ‘Ortho-curious’ I would get it. But people, in particular men, ~currently practicing Orthodox Judaism~?
Am I wrong, or isn’t the act of a man “lying with” another man specifically forbidden in the Torah? I thought that the Torah, while it did not prohibit male homosexuality per se, prohibited the active expression of that sexuality.
And I thought the purpose of a ‘singles Shabbaton’ was to find a life partner? A life partner one will presumably one day end up sleeping with? :^O
That said as Heshy already pointed out it’s an untapped niche and will probably make a lot of money for someone somewhere.
Nothing on the site says it’s a single shabbaton. Heshy made that up.
Yeah, now that I’ve read other comments indicating this I scrutinized the site for myself. I know he only titled it the way he did for the sake of satire, and probably generating interest, LOL — but it’s definitely not a singles thing. There is even roundtable discussion for frum gay and lesbian couples who are raising kids together.
i still have to wonder why people make such a huge deal over homosexuality. according to the torah, slavery is allowed and yet we no longer hold to that, so why are we still holding to the archaic anti-homosexuality stuff? can’t we change that too? and if people are going to hold to being all anti-homosexuality with the “it’s in the torah” argument, then shouldn’t they go back to the original text which mentions the punishment of stoning? and perhaps, before folks get a bug up their tuchus about that, they can start their hatred for humanity by stoning shabbos violators…. pardon me while i don my helmet.
I agree.
The various punishments do not apply NOW becuz we have no Temple and no Sanhedrin. The prohibitions still apply. When Mashiach comes, all will be as it was when we have the 3rd and final Temple, including stoning, etc.
Same with slavery. It will be reinstated as well. We don’t “outgrow” Torah.
Sorry Heshy, I disagree with you on this one. I think that this Shabbaton is a very positive venture and serves an important purpose.
Frum Jews with same-sex attractions suffer terribly within the Frum community, far more than Jews who have been caught with other sexual misconduct.
I don’t know what issues will be discussed at this Shabbaton, and I hope that they will encourage people to refrain from Issurim De’orata (or any other Issurim), but for Jews who have been challenged, rejected, and made to feel like outcasts their whole lives, I think that this Shabbaton may change lives and keep people within the Jewish community.
Beautifully said Michael.
Hearing that this is not a singles event really puts a different spin on it.
What can I do but support any Jews that are gathering to strengthen their ties to Yiddishkeit. As with any other Jews their relationship to Hashem is their personal issue. Now if it came down to supporting a group that is setting up Jews to take part in issorim, that would be a different story…
Why make these homophobic comments? Later you say you are joking, but equating gay identity with bestiality and joking about teaching yeshivish lisp is mean.
Janet,
It IS called “Frum Satire”. Most people reading this post will understand that Heshy’s being sarcastic. It’s the same kind of humor used by Setephen Colbert.
Wow I’m honored to be compared to the great colbert
What is the point of the mechitza? Maybe everyone should get their own small tent.
I suggest everyone be fully veiled in billowing jet-black abayas and veils like in Saudi, LOL. ;^D
Actually, they wouldn’t need a tent for each person. If the rule of mechitza is to separate people from those they are attracted to, then putting one guy and one gal together in each tent would be sufficient.
Of course, then all the straight folks will try to crash the event 🙂
LOL, I really am still confused about the mechitza part. ;^D
PS I just read the part where Heshy highlighted the “skills building” thing, and now I can see why some people thought the whole event is just aimed at teaching about dating and sex… you know, if you read that line and no others, that is. If you actually read the whole site it’s pretty darn clear that promoting mishkav zachor is not exactly an agenda item. If you look at the schedule, there’s nothing about sex and only one thing about relationships per se (which is about halachic perspectives, not “how to date”). The workshops seem to be all about halacha, fulfilling mitzvos, raising children, feeling less isolated, raising awareness in the Orthodox world, helping people become more observant, and making decisions about how to live our lives as people who are both gay and concerned with halacha.
I would not teach them safer sx. If they are doing it, I would kill them to prevent them, if I could- so why would I teach them to do it safely?
(I don’t actually think I would be able to kill anyone, but I’m pretty sure you are supposed to.)
Then I certainly hope they take the same attitude towards you. If you kill people who aren’t hurting you you are the one who will make the planet rotate a little easier by leaving it. Lots of people think they should kill heebs for killing Christ or Mohamed. Do they have your blessing, too?
Hey Dan, just bring it.
I’m totally with you, Dan. Such great depravity, so grievous in the eyes of the Lord. It’s everyone’s duty to kill a man, rather than allow him to engage in this sinful act. For what are a few moments of pain, a few hours of rack and bonfire, compared to an eternity of damnation? It’s actually for their own good.
Yours in the love of Jesus,
Tomas de Torquemada,
Grand Inquisitor.
How far have we sunk as jews to even talk about this abomination in association with anything religous how can a person say to god “im religious and all just this i cant keep” i know we all slip and go against his will at times bur to openly promote it as if theres nothing wrong is sick
Agreed. According to their supporters, anything that makes me uncomfortable and puts me in a class separate from the rest should be stricken from the rule book. Life doesn’t work that way and neither does Torah. You adjust your life to work within its framework, not the other way around.
Okay, I have a question about Judaism. Is disobeying one commandment worse than another? Like if a man had the choice to either lie with another man or eat a ham steak, would one of those choices be less sinful than the other?
Yes, there are several commandments of which it’s better to die than do them.
Obviously. Look at the punishments proscribed for them.
Good point. What if he had the choice between laying with another man or lighting a fire on the Sabbath, though? Or laying with another man or publicly dishonoring his father and mother? Aren’t all of those capital offenses in the Torah? Please excuse my ignorance. I definitely do not know that much about the Torah.
Torah calls homosexuality a “toyeva” abomination, not so by shabbos desecration. but same point would apply if someone said im totaly frum just i wont keep shabbos and he promotes that as a form of religion.
The only way to tell the difference initially is to look at the punishments involved. Death penalty is worse than no punishment explicitly mentioned (lashes), etc. However there is also a developed theology in this area.
There are 3 categories you are supposed to die rather than transgress in any situation: Idolatry, Murder, and Sexual Immorality (which includes adultery, homosexuality, etc). Otherwise, if someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to eat the pork sandwich or break shabbat, you do it.
Further there are others who maintain that even simple commandments like not to wear linen and wool together may be mandatory to die over if the situation is one of oppression (i.e. a government or group is telling you to do it to publicly disparage Judaism).
Oh my gosh, thank you for answering that. Yikes.
Interestingly enough sleeping with a nida, something that many straight “frum” boys do, (wether they do it regularly or just slip up once) is a much graver sin than sleeping with a man. However we do not see the same uproar for this that we see over the gays. I even remember hearing people in my yeshiva respond to hearing about premarital relations with “boruch hashem he is not a gay”
I dont believe sleeping with a niddah is liable to the death penalty, but I could be wrong. If it’s not, then your statement is false.
The punishment for sleeping with a nida is kares, which from what I remember is the most severe punishment of all. “worse than death”
What is kares?
kares means being spiritually cut-off or separated from god
It also means dying before your time, so to speak, according to some. I dont know about which is worse. All depends on your perspective I guess. When I was a smoker I used to say I’d rather die of cancer and have a cigarette in my mouth til the end. Now I look at it differently.
That blows man, luckily I’ve never even talked to a girl.
We have to talk to them too?
Im no expert in which capital offenses are worse than any others. Presumably, based on the gemara in Sanhedrin, the ones with the more horrific types of capital punishments are the worse offenses. But there are debates as to which punishments are worse. There are 4 types: stoning, strangling, burning (not by fire), and decapitation. The details of each are in the same tractate.
what do u expect from ultra frum people? there whole life, men can only be with men. school, camp, ect. some familys even have SISters eat in the kitchen on shabbos. and u expect them not to be gay…….
Yiz, I’m unsure if you’re serious or not, but this is actually a big problem in sex-segregated environments like Saudi Arabia, too. It’s kept very hush-hush, but young men certainly do end up having sexual encounters with one another. And of course, you see the same thing happening in Western sex-segregated environments, e.g. men’s prisons. Men engaging in sexual encounters with one another out of a lack of other options don’t consider themselves gay in these situations either, because they are not attracted to other men.
i was kidding but there is some truth to every joke……
LOL! Stupid.
I guess my previous comment got eaten by the filter.
First we had the y.u. symposium, then the silly “it gets better” video, now this. These perverts have sunk to a new low. It is sickening to see them degrade Shabbat to the point of using it as a tactic to promote their blatant disrespect for Judaism.
Any other category of frum sinner would hide his sins as much as possible, let alone trying to gather likeminded perverts for a Shabbaton.
The so called leaders of this farcical movement seemed to have effectively hijacked modern orthodoxy, and will end up marginalizing the m.o. movement even more among frum Jews.
I wouldn’t call the “It gets better” videos silly. They’re quite literally lifesavers.
Nuran,
I highly doubt that those videos ever saved anyone’s life. Anyway, for your convenience and that of some new readers, I’ll I’ll re-post my script for the logical follow up series, the granny/chicken bangers:
Following your logic, it MIGHT actually save lives:
– I was 5 years old when I realized I was attracted to my granny/chicken in ways that other people weren’t.
By the age of 12, the other kids made fun of me just because I dressed like my granny/chicken.
By the age of 18, I left yeshiva so I could spend more time with my granny/chicken. I realized the yeshiva would never accept me coming back late at night smelling like mothballs or a bad case of kapparos.
By the age of 24, I realized that I would never get over my addiction to my granny/chicken. My parents disowned me (can you blame them?).
Today, I’m happy with my granny/chicken, Even the thought the rest of the religious world considers me a freak. Just because I’m addicted to getting to know them in the biblical sense, that doesn’t mean I should be shunned. We simply try to stay away from penetration which is the big issur, and content ourselves trying the myriad other f*cked up fetishes you can only begin to imagine, as they are only issur d’rabanan.
So next time you see me in the mikvah with denture marks or chickens pecks on strange areas of my body, don’t judge me and think that I’m any less frum or normal than anyone else out there. After all, it’s the way God created me.
To all you granny/chicken loving folks, don’t give up; it gets better.
According to the letters Dan Savage has gotten they already have saved lives. The only thing that keeps a lot of queer teenagers alive is the hope that it could get better some day. Some don’t have that hope and kill themselves.
Nuran,
I didn’t know frummies were Dan Savage fans. Anyway, let’s assume that they did save lives. Still doesn’t change the fact that they are silly.
Assume that my script actually saved a life. It would still be silly as well. Or what about someone depressed that was suicidal then calmed down because of a funny/silly TV show like South Park or Beavis & Butthead. Would that make the shows “unsilly”?
One more thing. Last I checked, suicide was worse than being gay from a halachic standpoint, so it wouldn’t make any sense for someone in that situation to commit suicide strictly because of a religious belief or adherence. Those that commit suicide obviously have much deeper issues.
A person isn’t committing suicide out of a logical halachic evaluation but out of despair loneliness and hopelessness. The thought of being a pariah to the community and being alone for the rest of your life is too much to bear for some. Give them a glimmer of hope and save their lives.
Or lock them up in an asylum and spend all our tax dollars feeding their vegetable brains.
Nate – you are a quite the catch. Like the flu. or cholera.
Realist,
What I was trying to say is that a rational person that couldn’t take the thought of spending the rest of his life alone or being a pariah would likely choose acting out on his feelings before killing himself.
People do not commit suicide over religous concerns. They commit suicide because of the seemingly overwhelming helplessness of their situation.When everyone you know and love and respect says terrible things about gay people, young gays inernalize that and begin to think they deserve such scorn, wether or not they have acted on those desires. On a sidenote although I am sure some will have little faith in the source, an article in the Jewish Week – “The Cost of Idly Standing By” touches on Phil’s comment about suicide verses being gay. http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/opinion/cost_standing_idly
A truly scary article knowing that some people in a position of influence and power over young people have theses opinions.
Whom do I have to be?
It’s not about legitimate or not legitimate. So they love each other. Unquestionably, undeniably. Fine. Just 1 small problem. No relations allowed. Not becasue it’s morally reprehensible. Not becasue we hate fags. Not becasue of anything at all but that the Torah says so. If it didn’t, they can go pack each other’s fudge until their rectums prolapse, I wouldn’t care at all. Let them stand back to back and make a habitrail for their gerbils if they want.
BUT, God said NO. So it’s no. No love, no butt burgling, no Hershey Highway. Tough. By Torah law it’s no different than the heterosxual relations between a brother and sister. It has nothing to do with love. There’s no prohibitions against loving a fire hydrant if you want either. Unless you’re a dig, but thats another Bible.
Bottom line: If it was permitted to bang my stepdaughter, I might do it if she was hot enough. But it’s forbidden. The rest of the world may find it disgusting to sleep with your kid sister for who knows what reason. Our reason is not the same as theirs. Our reason is because the Torah says no. Why does an atheist Gentile still not participate in incest, but might be homosexually active? He doesnt care that God said no. Is it just abhorrent for some unknown reason? Maybe. But for us, the Torah’s law against it is good enough.
If it were only about love, then obviously its not something that can be controlled, so the Torah wouldnt have placed a restriction on it, because there is nothing required of us or forbidden for us that is beyond our capacity to do or not do. Every single thing we have has rules attached to it. How, when, where, what, who. There is not 1 thing that is without a rule. Our life is not a free for all, nor is it about what makes us happy or comfy. It’s about what God wants, not what we want, and our job is to work on ourselves until the 2 are one and the same. Goyim are about this world and beer on Friday night and the Super Bowl. We aren’t.
Nope, I would never dream in a million years you’re a closeted gay who’s jealous that these people get to have fulfilling lives while you’re stuck with your hand and your fantasies. Never, I would never ever think that.
Noni – I think you have Nate pegged 100%!
Whom do I have to be?
It’s not about legitimate or not legitimate. So they love each other. Unquestionably, undeniably. Fine. Just 1 small problem. No relations allowed. Not becasue it’s morally reprehensible. Not becasue we hate fags. Not becasue of anything at all but that the Torah says so. If it didn’t, they can go pack each other’s fudge until their rectums prolapse, I wouldn’t care at all. Let them stand back to back and make a habitrail for their gerbils if they want.
BUT, God said NO. So it’s no. No love, no butt burgling, no Hershey Highway. Tough. By Torah law it’s no different than the heterosxual relations between a brother and sister. It has nothing to do with love. There’s no prohibitions against loving a fire hydrant if you want either. Unless you’re a dog, but thats another Bible.
That was intended a s a reply to ABERDEEN
Bottom line: If it was permitted to bang my stepdaughter, I might do it if she was hot enough. But it’s forbidden. The rest of the world may find it disgusting to sleep with your kid sister for who knows what reason. Our reason is not the same as theirs. Our reason is because the Torah says no. Why does an atheist Gentile still not participate in incest, but might be homosexually active? He doesnt care that God said no. Is it just abhorrent for some unknown reason? Maybe. But for us, the Torah’s law against it is good enough.
If it were only about love, then obviously its not something that can be controlled, so the Torah wouldnt have placed a restriction on it, because there is nothing required of us or forbidden for us that is beyond our capacity to do or not do. Every single thing we have has rules attached to it. How, when, where, what, who. There is not 1 thing that is without a rule. Our life is not a free for all, nor is it about what makes us happy or comfy. It’s about what God wants, not what we want, and our job is to work on ourselves until the 2 are one and the same. Goyim are about this world and beer on Friday night and the Super Bowl. We aren’t.
Bottom line: If it was permitted to bang my stepdaughter, I might do it if she was hot enough. But it’s forbidden. The rest of the world may find it disgusting to sleep with your kid sister for who knows what reason. Our reason is not the same as theirs. Our reason is because the Torah says no. Why does an atheist Gentile still not participate in incest, but might be homosexually active? He doesnt care that God said no. Is it just abhorrent for some unknown reason? Maybe. But for us, the Torah’s law against it is good enough.
If it were only about love, then obviously its not something that can be controlled, so the Torah wouldnt have placed a restriction on it, because there is nothing required of us or forbidden for us that is beyond our capacity to do or not do. Every single thing we have has rules attached to it. How, when, where, what, who. There is not 1 thing that is without a rule. Our life is not a free for all, nor is it about what makes us happy or comfy. It’s about what God wants, not what we want, and our job is to work on ourselves until the 2 are one and the same. Goyim are about this world and beer on Friday night and the Super Bowl. We aren’t.
part 2 (why are there such problems with posting something lengthy?)
Bottom line: If it was permitted to bang my stepdaughter, I might do it if she was hot enough. But it’s forbidden. The rest of the world may find it disgusting to sleep with your kid sister for who knows what reason. Our reason is not the same as theirs. Our reason is because the Torah says no. Why does an atheist Gentile still not participate in incest, but might be homosexually active? He doesnt care that God said no. Is it just abhorrent for some unknown reason? Maybe. But for us, the Torah’s law against it is good enough.
If it were only about love, then obviously its not something that can be controlled, so the Torah wouldnt have placed a restriction on it, because there is nothing required of us or forbidden for us that is beyond our capacity to do or not do. Every single thing we have has rules attached to it. How, when, where, what, who. There is not 1 thing that is without a rule. Our life is not a free for all, nor is it about what makes us happy or comfy. It’s about what God wants, not what we want, and our job is to work on ourselves until the 2 are one and the same. Goyim are about this world and beer on Friday night and the Super Bowl. We aren’t.
That was supposed to be a reply to Aberdeen
and the rest of it: (WHY THIS BLOG CANT HANDLE MORE THAN 2 PARAGRAPHS IS BEYOND ME)
Bottom line: If it was permitted to bang my stepdaughter, I might do it if she was hot enough. But it’s forbidden. The rest of the world may find it disgusting to sleep with your kid sister for who knows what reason. Our reason is not the same as theirs. Our reason is because the Torah says no. Why does an atheist Gentile still not participate in incest, but might be homosexually active? He doesnt care that God said no. Is it just abhorrent for some unknown reason? Maybe. But for us, the Torah’s law against it is good enough.
Also,if it were only about love, then obviously its not something that can be controlled, so the Torah wouldnt have placed a restriction on it, because there is nothing required of us or forbidden for us that is beyond our capacity to do or not do. Every single thing we have has rules attached to it. How, when, where, what, who. There is not 1 thing that is without a rule. Our life is not a free for all, nor is it about what makes us happy or comfy. It’s about what God wants, not what we want, and our job is to work on ourselves until the 2 are one and the same. Goyim are about this world and beer on Friday night and the Super Bowl. We aren’t.
It is clear that gay intercourse is forbidden (the topic of other gay sexual activities seems to be open to debate). Nonetheless, I greatly dislike gay people for being singled out as violators of the Torah, when I see so many “religious” Jews violating the Torah on a continuous and sysetmatic basis. How many give religious Jews give 10% of their income to charity? Treat their neighbors as they would wish to be treated? Or are generally racist, unempathetic, awful people? Yet we don’t go on tirades about the wrongness of their actions and how they go against Torah.
Whether or not gay sex is worse than the above violations of Torah is a different debate, but it is legitimate and reasonable debate. At the end of the day, instead of spending extensive time criticizing gays, I think we should take a look at ourselves and strengthen ourselves in Torah.
yes, we should look at ourselves and strengthen ourselves in Torah, but this is not about “is it any worse to be gay than to treat your neighbors badly”, it’s about whether you go ahead and have a Shabbaton for people treating their neighbors badly and promote it as a Jewish religious event. in an ideal world there would be more tolerance in society for gay people so that they could go on Shabbatons with everybody else, without it turning into such a big issue and without them having to turn their sexual lifestyle into what defines them as a person, but that is clearly not the case…
Wtf!!!! Jewish frum gay??? Maybe you’re born as a jew so you called call you self jewish but frum?? Gay is totally not frum!!
Remember, a frum gay person chooses to be frum. S/he does not choose to be gay. So you are offended that we choose to remain frum?
where comes gay to jewdiasim?? thats my question.
“Nate”, “Dan”, and “Sickening”,
You all disgust me. Instead of a respectful comment opposing the shabbaton, such as Moty Raven’s at Jan 20, 10:25 AM, you three choose to engage in bigotry and hatred. You need to do some deep soul searching, asking yourselves if Hashem really approves of your nauseating rhetoric.
Why is it that the gays more than any other group try so hard to be “in-your-face”. You wanna shtup a guy – fine – but why publicize it? It’s not normal – and by normal I mean mainstream – what “everyone” does. It seems like the gays want gayness to ‘be’ the mainstream. Why? I have nothing against freedom and do what you want to do – but why try to make this way of life the norm and the mainstream?
If gays don’t want to be treated ‘differently’ then act NORMAL. And by normal I mean don’t walk around wearing tightass clothing that shows your stick and ball shape. By NORMAL I mean don’t make a parade in San Fran where you have men in leather thongs and spikes spanking each other.
If the gays want to be respected and not bigoted against they have to act like NORMAL people.
And I’m NOT saying they have no right to do these things. They can do whatever they want by their parades or how they dress. But act respectful and you’ll get respect
LOL Just Saying, that’s apples and oranges. It’s true those parades are over the top; many gays and lesbians detest them for just the reasons you outlined.
But I SERIOUSLY doubt the type of gay person attending a shomer shabbos event featuring cholov ysrael cuisine, mechitza davening & an “eruv checked daily” is the same type of individual who is walking the streets of San Francisco in leather thongs and spikes spanking people. Like, if you were to make a Veen diagram on that, the circles would not even bee touching one another. ;^D
We have regular naked bicycling events here where I live. Crowds of people riding around wearing absolutely nothing but the smile on their faces. Now 90% of those people are straight. But it surely doesn’t follow that 90% of heterosexuals would ride around town butt-naked and therefore deserve disrespect. :^)
Thanks Mahla, you are so right.
Of course, Just Saying doesn’t realize how many gays he sees or interacts with every day. But since theyare not in tight leather, he doesn’t know it… He doesn’t realize he davens with gays and went to yeshiva with gays (if he is a regular shul-goer or a yeshiva buchur) .
Ok, first off, I apologize for the multiple postings. It seems that there was trouble with the blog last night.
Noni: I am not in the closet, and truly if I was gay, I’m the type who has a i dont give a sh*t attitude about what I do and what others think of it, so you can trust me when i say i’d be very open about it. The “methinks he does protest too much” is old, and irrelevant, becuz in my opinion you cant protest too much against violations of Torah.
Heshy: if a loveless life is not worth living, feel free to kill yourself. Too much treife music has put that nonsensical idea in your head anyway. Or just love your hand and it will love you back.
Alex: what people commit suicide for is really not my concern, and to be honest, i wish they had gov’t sponsored suicide clinics for those who wish to unburden themselves. Decreasing the surplus population is a good thing, and if you’re not happy here, leave.
Everyone Else: yes, they are made to feel like outcasts, shunned,cursed at, beaten, etc etc. I have no problem with any of it. You all seem to have this romantic version of what life should be like for a frum Jew. You envision us all hugging trees, singing around a campfire and chanting rise n shine n give God your glory glory. Wake the fk up.
We have no interest in saving whales, or cows walking to the slaughterhouse. We envision that when Mashiach comes we will resume the bloody messy daily task of sacrificing in the temple, with blood and guts all over the place, and the smell of thousands of dead animals permeating the air. We envision a Sanhaedrin meting out all the punishments, including lashes stonings, beheadings, hangings, whatever. We look forward to the return of the slavery system, be they blacks or other Jews. We look forward to having it made clear who is in violation of Torah and dealing with them accordingly, whether its homosxuality or Shabbos violation. We look forward to Israel being a total theocracy, run according to halacha as determined by the Sanhedrin, not the RCA, and to having the land of Israel “goyim-rein”, free of all non-Jews. We want flagrant violators to be outed, shunned, even spit on in the streets.
All this is daas Torah, and if it makes you uncomfortable to think of that happening one day, then get out while you can, cuz it’s coming. Say goodbye to your triefe music, your billboards with girls in bikinis, your Friday nights spent at the local club, and your weekend getaways to some retreat in the mountains with your hair uncovered.
And if you for a minute think that every yeshiva boy isn’t being taught to pine for this change, you’re naieve. And if you think that every frum shul Rabbi doesnt wish he could say it from the pulpit, you’re delusional.
If you really want a world thats all about love and freedom and expressing yourselves and other idiocy, I suggest you get a pound of weed, smoke it all in 1 sitting, and jump in the river, cuz thats the only place its gonna happen.
Nate,
I’m gathering that you really, really, want to sleep with your stepdaughter. Which is rather disturbing.
What’s even more bizarre is that the example of your stepdaughter totally undermines your point. Not sleeping with your stepdaughter is a moral consideration that is NOT from the Torah. A stepdaughter is not a blood relation, thus halachically, there is no issur. It’s simply a moral issue based on contemporary mores of right and wrong.
1)I dont have a stepdaughter, I was making a point.
2) You are wrong. It is prohibited from the Torah itself, not some arbitrary soical more’. A mother-in-law isnt a blood relation either, but is also prohibited in the text itself. The prohibitions are not limited to blood relations. And they arent prohibited becuz of some scientifically proven genetic issue either.
You all need to get with the program. When Mashiach comes, the world you see today will change drastically, from the bloody smelly mess in the temple that will come back, to the Sanhedrin administering lashes and capital punishments to tzaraas on the walls and clothing to the ritual of the Sotah.
If you all think it’s gonna be some kind of American free for all Woodstock festival, you’re in for a huge surprise. Heads covered, tznius police, Israel will be a theocracy, not a democracy, women will be home with their kids where they belong, and homos and other deviants will be ostracized to their own little enclave. Slavery will be reinstated. Orthodox Rabbis will rule the roost. The only music playing will be the Levites in the temple. I can hardly wait for this, and if you think your shul rabbi doesnt believe the same thing, you need a wake up call.
Nate is right. Suicide is good. He should try it. ASAP. And leave the rest of us in peace, love and harmony.
The post-Moshiach world he envisions is REPULSIVE.
Frum & Gay, reminds me of another blog called On the Fringe, where there is a woman who makes comments and calls herself Reform Baal Teshuva. What a crock of s**t.
My only question is… How can you be frum and gay at the same time? isnt it against the Tora?
And behold, there was light.
Homosexuality is a mental abnormality. This is a statement of fact, irrespective of what the PC world believes. The Torah emphasizes heterosexual couples. The Torah denigrates homosexual acts.
You can’t be frum and engage in homosexual acts. This has nothing to do with feelings or happiness.
yeah, what he said ^
Nate,
Welcome to frum satire. After reading your comments over the past week, I must say you make me look like a moderate.
Hesh, your filter seems to be flushing my comments more often than usual…
Did you add something that flushes politically incorrect wording 😉 ?
I’m pretty sure my shul rabbi doesn’t think that…
It’s amazing how many rabbis i have met in the local grocery store whom i have asked their opinions about some of these matters and others, including their congregants driving to shul on Shabbos, homosexuality, etc. Every one of them has said “You know I can’t express my personal feelings on this. I’d lose the entire congregation.”
What they think and what they say are pretty far apart from each other.
In the good old days, a shul rabbi said what was right and what was Torah driven, and if the members didnt like it they could go find another shul. Some even fought over the privelege of paying for the rabbi and his mussar.
Today, its flipped around. The rabbi serves at the behest of the members, and wouldnt dare give mussar to them for fear of losing his job. Back then he was the boss. Today he’s a shlepper and a wuss.
What he says and what he thinks are very far apart from each other. He wants to keep his job.
if you want to keep your job and not be sent to a mental hospital, i suggest you shut up
..Tirtzah is proud to be a part of Eshel which will be hosting its first Orthodox LGBT community Shabbaton this January..Eshel welcomes gay and lesbian traditional Jews to join us for this first-ever shabbaton being held January 21-23 at the Isabella Freedman Retreat Center two hours from New York City. The Shabbaton will bring together Orthodox gay Jews of all kinds including the ex-Orthodox and Ortho-curious to an event aimed to create a community of support learning growth and leadership..The shabbaton will include shiurim zmiros sessions on relevant to our lives as gay and lesbian frum or formerly frum Jews wonderful geshmak davening delicious organic kosher food and plenty of time scheduled to just hang out sit by the fireplace on Saturday night and get to know all the members of this growing community. This will be an informative fun and spiritually inspiring weekend..On Sunday we will convene a Leadership Development Day from 9am-3pm that will address the crucial questions regarding our shared commitment to a more welcoming Orthodox world.
Nate, you’re really sounding like the neighborhood fool. How dare you call Reform a “crock of s***.” Hello, the history book is calling, REFORM IS OLDER THAN ANY ORGANIZED ORTHODOX MOVEMENT. Sure there were some secluded communities in Lithuania and Poland, who now exist as seven different shtebils on every block in Boro Park (they would kill each other with their bare-hands if they had the opportunity), but there was no organizational structure.
An organization in the UK called Stonewall put up a billboard that I think you should see; it says “SOME BLOKES ARE GAY: DEAL WITH IT.” You are on the losing side of history if you think the world is going back to tribal values.
Good day sir.
Aberdeen: The age of an organized religion is irrelevant. Prior to the advent of Reform in Germany, where it began, there was no need to be organized. There were no separations. Either you were a Shomer Shabbos Jew or you weren’t. Where you lived, a shteibl or a major city, also played no part. There were frum, and non-frum, and that was it. It was only when some a-hole came up with the idea that you can be half frum, half goy, or be assimilated and still be a good Jew, or you can be gay and still be frum, or you can just say to hell with God and Torah as long as you’re a “Jew at heart”, or you can just buy trees in Israel and violate Shabbos, that the idea of classes and organizations started.
Rav Gifter, zt”l, the former R”Y of Telshe in Cleveland said it best: “I am not an Orthodox Jew. I am a Torah Jew.”
And yeah, we are going back to the “tribal” ways. You may still have a nice car to drive to the Bais HaMikdash in the Messianic era, but the sheep you will be bringing for a sacrifice might mess up the upholstery.
first of all, the Rambam writes that sacrificing animals was a primitive state of religious practice that God intended from the beginning to be phased out eventually and replaced by an intellectually and philosophically superior mode of worship: prayer. For Rambam, Torah-Avodah-Gemilus Chasadim is far preferable to the smelly, noisy rites of the Temple. So you are dead wrong when you say that animal sacrifices will be offered. As for your other comments, I see you have no knowledge of Jewish history, have you ever heard of the Tziddukim or the Jews of the Dead Sea Scrolls? There have been sects within Judaism for thousands of years. It appears that you gain no joy from being Jewish and learning Torah, as you said earlier, “Judaism is not about happiness or love.” I guess you haven’t read Nedorim 48 where it says that simchah in limud torah is the primary aspect of the mitzvah. Tzei Ulemad, get off this blog, move your a!s and learn some Torah
RamBam RamBam RamBam. Is that all you rationalist Slifkin slaves know how to say? God almighty, get a new mantra already. Go further back in time, Jesus said all that stuff too. Look where he ended up, lol. Thats assuming he even existed, for which there is precious little, if any proof at all.
Nah, I’ll stick with the other Gedolim and Chazal. Like the yeshiva in Israel that is teaching Kohanim what to do in the 3rd Temple. Sprinking the blood and all that cool sh*t.
Well, whats left to say after all that? Nate pretty much said everything I’ve got to say, & he’s allot funnier too.
What just amazes me, is the level of ignorance & apathy that people are willing to put up with these days, just to appear correct and fair to all parties, no matter how decadent they are. Frum & gay???
1 – I am not in favor of this weekend
2 – The more I read from “Nate,” the more I think he has a very superficial understanding of Halacha and hashkafa.
3 – The more I read from “Nate,” the more convinced I become that he is Jewish Philosipher. Google him or read his blog, he is a real sicko, who was thrown out of his shul in Monsey for threatening/harassing another blogger. There must be a way to determine whether it’s him by checking his IP address. Either way, I worry that one day I will read in the news about Nate or Jewish Philosipher committing some terrible act, and I worry that giving them a forum like this makes them bolder, thus enabling them. Something to think about.
A terrible act? Like Baruch Goldstein did in Chevron? That wasnt terrible, it was an act of mercy in not killing them all.
You’re pretty funny. First off, I have never been to Monsey, or NY at all for that matter. I live in and was born in Baltimore, and your IP search will verify that. I have never been thrown out of any blog either.
Secondly, the Rambam is not the authority on what will be and what wont be. If there will not be any sacrifices, then why will there be an altar?
There never any sects. Tzidukim were the non-frum i spoke about. Because there was no 3rd “sect” of reform-type non Shabbos observers at that time, not like the Reform , Conservative and MO goyim of today. Yes you heard correctly. MO are goyim mamash. So is Slifkin and the rest of you rationalists.
Nate,
“MO are goyim mamash”.
You sure sound like you were raised in Villiamsboig.
Hey Nate, Your mashiach already came. He is in Afghanistan. The only difference is now they call the heilige sanhedrin the Taliban.Spend a few months over there and see what it is really like. If you are still spouting hate filled rhetoric after spending some time in Kabul then you truly are the disturbed and frightening individual you appear to be.
Taliban is fine, as long as they dont pick on frum Yidden.
Of course the taliban is fine in your eyes. How ironic it will be that when mashiach does come, concepts like cavod habrios, ahavta lreicha cmocha, and derech eretz kadma ltorah are shown to be more important than tznius police and public ostracism.
I have plenty of derech eretz, towards Shomerei Shabbos. I have no love whatsoever for violators of Torah who think that saving a whale or accepting an intermarried couple into their congregation or a homo “rabbi” or letting goyim hold services in a shul out of brotherly love, takes precedence over any single Torah law. Better that an intermarried couple should suffer death by Zyklon-B than to be allowed to go inside a shul.
Nate,
Are you for real? There is no issur for an intermarried couple to walk into a shul, let alone be punishable by death for doing so. You don’t need to spew any more hate than necessary to prove a point.
I know plenty of Chabad houses that have non Jews attend their services on a regular basis. If they are interested in frumkeit, the shul is open to them, though they aren’t allowed to participate in the actual services such as getting an aliyah or being counted for the minyan.
I’m not advocating accepting intermarriages, just saying that once a couple is intermarried, you aren’t forced to cut off all contact with them. You can check with your rav, I’m quite sure he’d agree.
God created men in the image of god, It is not for you to pick and choose which ones to respect. God loves all of his children. That is a given. He is constantly giving life to all, even those that violate the torah, even those that fall outside of the very narrow spectrum that you see judaism through. You know better than god who is deserving of love? You know better than hashem who deserves to live and die? That is quite a claim.
only someone like nate the great could make such a claim. after all, Hashem is a goyishe shaygetz in his eyes
I believe nate the hate would be more appropriate.
Actually, the Rav of my shul DID find out that a certain man in the shul was married to a shiksa. He forbade him to ever enter again until he divorces the b*tch. I love my Rav. Good thing he has spies like me to keep him informed of such things.
And Rav Ovadiah Yosef said a few weeks ago that goyim were created to serve Jews. I agree.
Any Chabad house that would allow a goy to enter for anything other than cleaning up after a big kiddush or turning on the AC in the summer should be shut down immediately. The goyim are not loved, not tolerated, not welcome anywhere a Yid goes.
BTW, in my most humble opinion, the only thing Hitler got wrong was the people he picked on.
Dude is either a sicko, or has a sick sense of humor. Either way, I think he has crossed the line, as condoning violence. I don’t think he should be permitted to comment further on this blog.
OMG NO! A Jew speaks of violence?! Heaven forbid! Guess I’ll have to carry 2 guns now, mine AND yours. What color panties are you wearing, pink or fuschia?
Nate, condoning violence against your fellow jews is a problem. And for the record some of the liberals, modern orthodox, and even the gays carry guns too. We have to protect ourselves from the crazies.
Nate,
Your lack of general halachic knowledge is starting to show.
1) To begin with, we DO accept non Jews into shuls, provided they are interested in become Jewish. I remind you that Yitro, the world’s biggest idolater, converted to Judaism and became Moshe’s father in law. Ruth converted and is the direct ancestor of David Hamelech and Mashiach. We also pray for the welfare of true converts 3 times a day in the amidah.
All converts have to start somewhere, namely attending some kind of shul and other Jewish functions before deciding whether or not to join.
2) According to Halacha, you aren’t allowed to bring in a non Jew to turn on the AC on Shabat, read up on the laws of amira le-akum.
The rav of your shul may very well be better off accepting the intermarried Jew in his shul and trying to show him the error of his ways instead of throwing him out. Kind of like the Hillel vs. Shammai approach. Telling him to get divorced or lost is a sure way to ensure he never steps foot in your (and possibly any other) shul ever again.
My guess is that you’re likely a young, immature person, with zero life experience in order to make comments such as the recent ones, especially the one about hitler.
1) To begin with, no we don’t let them in. Even for a family simcha with goyishe friends, Sorry shaygetz, you cant come in, goodbye. If they have already converted, fine, but we don’t seek ways to make them want to convert at all.
2) Wrong, every shul I know of has a Shabbos goy. It’s all in how and what you say to him.
3) If he never comes back cuz he was told to get a divorce, then good riddance. We dont want or need him. Let him pimp out his whore wife and get drunk like the goyim do.
3) I am 52, graduated from Ner Israel in Baltimore, and have more learning under my belt from Gedolim than you can fathom.
Nate,
1) The vast majority of frum shuls have converts that pray there. They have to start somwhere. As for those who don’t convert, I suppose you’re the one checking their bris at the door to make sure.
2) The only shuls that have a “shabbos goy” are typically M.O shuls. But you already said M.O are “goyim mamash”, so that doesn’t say much. Open a shulchan aruch and see what kind of problems you can run into with a Shabbos goy. It’s probably the most trangressed part of Shabbos by frum people today. Only way a goy can do anything, is for his own benefit, and no, you can’t tell him to do it.
3) You intermarried shul “buddy” is still a jew, no matter if married to a non Jewess. With the assimilation levels today, we DO want nad need each and every Jew, they always have potential.
4) The is no way you graduated from any Yeshiva. Ner Yisroel has a good reputation, you claiming to have graduated from there is an insult to Ner Yisroel.
5) While a few of you’re inital comments may have been a bit funny to some, you’re latest comments are a disgrace. No way you’re 52, unless you’ve had 90% of you’re brain removed, which I doubt is the case.
Want me to fax you my diploma from NIRC? Circa 1977. If I gave you my full name you could easily call Rabbi Tendler and ask him if he remembers me, as I was in his shiur in 12th grade. I had Rav Heinemann for 11th. Rav Moshe Glazer for 10th. Rav Kalman Weinreb for 9th. Dont make assumptions and accusations you cant back up sonny boy.
MO shuls dont need a Shabbos goy, their rabbi serves the same purpose.
And I said before, once they convert I treat them like every other frum Jew, because they are. But they dont get in the door until the process is complete.
Nate,
Nice to throw around the big names, what do you think they would say if they read your comments?
Mo Rabbis = Shabbos goys ???
Non Jews don’t get through the door until they convert? How do you expect them to learn anything?
Does your kiddush club lace your cholent with LSD?
I DON’T expect them to learn anything, thats the whole point! I DO NOT want them in my shul, in my neighborhood, or in my city for that matter.
Nate,
Chazal don’t seem to share your opinion. They institued a prayer for Geirei tzedek in the amidah, and set up conversion standards for us to be able to accept those willing to join us.
You claim to be a Torah observant Jew, but you seem to have more admiration for nazi ideology than Torah ideology.
Funny you should ask. I saw one of my old rebbeim in the store recently and asked him what he thought about Slifkin. He said he’s an apikores. End story.
Nate,
Maybe you should ask him what he thinks of Jews that admire hitler and the nazis.
How about you ask yourself this:
If it had been 6 million Palestinians, Hamas, Arabs, etc. would you be as upset about it?
I wouldn’t. I bet most if not all of the Orthodox world wouldn’t be either. It wouldn’t exactly be PC to state it publicly, but I’m pretty confident in my theory. And I’m even more sure that the non-Ortho Jews wouldn’t be. I mean they are not upset that blacks were slaves, after all they financed most of the slave trade to begin with. It’s only now that they express crocodile tears for all the suffering of the blacks, trying to ingratiate themselves once again with the gentile world.
Nate,
Naturally, I wouldn’t be upset if 6 million of my sworn enemies perished tomorrow. That doesn’t mean that I admire anything about the nazis.
To suggest that Jews will one day goose step down to public executions is outrageous. I don’t think the public executions Beis din enforced had a party like atmosphere, it was a sad day in 70 years if anyone actually got the death penalty.
As for slavery, I’m not necessarily against it under certain circumstances. Furthermore, any employee is a glorified slave, how else would you call someone that gets told what to do all day, when to wake up, when to eat, or when he gets to spend time with his family?
As for blacks, they should have every right that anyone else does, as they currently do. However, I will not cry about anyone discriminating against them, after all, it’s a free country. This freedom should include the right to choose whom to employ and who you can crack jokes about.
If one can poke fun at other Jews, old people, fat people or blonds, why should we spare anyone else?
nate,
it’s people like you who make me proud and secure in my decision to be otd. i certainly would not want to be on any derech that you might cross, and i sure as hell wouldn’t want my children to be on that path either.
i wonder if the kiruv groups out there are aware that you’re working against them.
Dude if you’re OTD becuz of my opinions and those like me, then you have other deeper issues. If you didnt become frum to begin with becuz of opinions you like, you wouldnt be OTD for those you dont like. The problem is within you, not me.
If you are against a civil law in American will you give up your citizenship and defect, too? I doubt it. You are OTD becuz you are weak. Eat more cholent, you” be fine.
no, silly. i never said that i’m otd because of you. you give yourself waaaay too much credit. i did say that people like you make me proud and secure in my decision to be otd (this was looong before i read your bold attempts at humor today.)
i’m not otd because i’m weak. i’m otd because i’m smart. but that was a good one. i think you’re totally angry and hurt. i’m willing to bet that you are wrestling with some very big demons, like the desire to be less frum and that this is why you’re lashing out so strongly at those who are. i’d say that you’re harboring a lot of jealousy regarding the freedom that those who are less restricted have, but because you are so enmeshed in the frum world, you feel (but would never admit it) stuck. you’re probably a ba’al teshuvah, or if not, you’re entrenched in the community of your parents, or you’re sitting in yeshiva somewhere. you’re at that rebellious self-righteous stage of development (which is a beautiful thing and necessary to development.) based on my observations and experiences, i’d say that you’ll probably be a lot less frum, if not completely off the derech, within the next five years, if not sooner.
enjoy the journey.
Actually I was OTD for about 3 years, until I got my head straight again, and figured out that the non-frum world offers nothing but an empty plate. At least mine has hot cholent on it now.
You justify your decision by patting yourself on the back everytime you read about a frum child molester being caught. As if there are no Xtian ones, or even Atheist ones. One has nothing to do with the other. Your obligation is to what God says to do, regardless of what I do. Even if all that is left is 1 frum Jew, its enough that he does what he is charged to do without saying the whole world is OTD.
i would love to dialogue with you, but i’m really appalled by the way you refer to your fellow human beings in other recent comments. and no, my obligation is not to any “god” that promotes hatred, murder and elitism. perhaps the god you pray to condones and promotes your hate speech, but in that case, my guess is that most people reading this thread do not pray to the same god as you.
In that case I pose a question to you directly. The same question I posed to rationalist frummie (as if that could happen), who has yet to answer as well:
Before the Israelites entered the land of Israel, Hashem commanded them to obliterate all the peoples living there. Obliterate, ie men, women, children.
Joshua was commanded to wipe out other cities
King Saul was commanded to wipe out Amalek, and lost his throne for allowing just 1 of them live.
Now you tell me, exactly where can I find this God of ONLY love and mercy and tolerance (especially tolerance) that you and everyone else refers to?
You wont answer, ‘cuz you can’t. ‘Cuz the very same God who makes a beautiful baby, can also be the One who has that baby thrown into an oven at the hands of evildoers.
This assumes, of course, that you believe God has a hand in everything. If you don’t, and believe that some things are out of His control, then you are an apikoris as well as OTD.
I’ll check back later to see if you found that God. Good luck with that.
you should ask those folks who believe in god. i don’t believe that there is a god, but i respect those who do and based on their posts in this thread and others, i doubt that they agree with the violence and hatred that you spew in the name of god. but i respect your need for attention because that’s just a symptom of your condition. and i understand your desperate need to pour out your wrath here, and i pity you and i hope that you can come to terms with the person you really are inside and free him instead of feeling the need to oppose all that you obviously crave. again, nate, i wish you luck and peace. and i hope that when you finally come out of your protective armor, that you find the world as welcoming to you as you make it for others. peace.
Peace? LOL. ok, what are you a flower child from the 60’s? Do you smoke weed and sing koombaya too? Wake up my boy. The days of wine & roses and peace love & togetherness went out with Woodstock. The only peace u get now is at the business end of an M-16.
i’m not a guy.
Aberdeen: Face it, Reform, Recon, Humanistic, whatever, is a giant toilet bowl of crunchy turdflakes. Marrying a reform Jew is the same as marrying a shvartza.
I envision a rally, followed by a march, similar to the old newsreel films of the goose-stepping Nazis, except in this case it would be Chasidim, Misnagdim, yeshiva bochurs, all goose-stepping and saluting Melech HaMashiach, The we would all go to witness a mass stoning of mechalelei Shabbos, followed by a huge feast, where Kohanim would be eating teruma and maaser. That is the new Torah World Order that is coming, I pray.
I think I saw that episode on The Twilight Zone.
Im gonna go daven mincha and take a nap. Ill be back later to help correct your misunderstandings of true Torah hashkafa, if I feel like it. Auf wiedersein, n sh*t.
your praying for the wrong things. The sanhedrin only issued death penalties once every 70 years. As I said earlier, the Rambam says that korbanos will not exist in the 3rd bais hamikdash. Thus, you are wrong. Dude, did you get sodomized as a kid? The Rambam is a huge gadol, much greater than you or any other Rabbi of this generation. Go to gehinom
Rambam is 1 MINOR opinion, beaten by the majority of greater opinions. Or perhaps you think that the yeshiva for Kohanim in Israel is training them in the “ancient rites” for nothing but tuition money? lol
If you’ve ever learned gemarah, you would no that minority opinions get treated with the utmost respect. I guess respect isnt something they teach you at the yeshiva you went to
Guys! Stop feeding the f*ckin troll! You couldn’t ask for a better proof than him praising Hitler y”s. This guy is probably giggling in front of his computer in his parents’ basement, getting off from all the attention you’re giving him, getting you all riled up.
watch srugim season 2.
I have a question for you guys. Recently, as in during the past year, a couple of noteworthy events happened here in Baltimore. I’d love to hear your wrong opinions on them.
1) A black church burnt down (not a bad thing in itself). A local reform temple (lol, i love that word) decided to do the “right thing” and make their temple available on Sundays for the monkeys to use for their services. Now, admittedly, since the temple only has use on 2 days during the year, and if they rented it and got some $ for it, perhaps thats a valid reason. But assuming they did it for free, because we all know that if they did charge for it, they would be labeled typical Jews looking for money, do you think this was an ok thing to do? Their congregants thought so it seems.
2) I found out that in addition to the above, another reform temple had actually been doing this for a few years, setting aside an entire floor or room for some church services. Again, I dont know if there was rent charged or not.
3) The same temple in #1, on the Shabbos prior to MLK day, had the choir from the same black church come and sing in the temple for their Friday night service. On the following Sunday, the temple choir (LOL) sent their members to the newly rebuilt church to sing in their church for them as well. If you cant see the audacious humor and outright criminality of this, there is no hope for you.
4) The “rabbi” of the temple mentioned in #1 made a statement in a local paper (the Baltimore Jewish Times) that he considers himself to be Sabbath observant. He went on to prove this by stating that on Saturday afternoon, after services, he and his family have “Sabbath family time” wherein they usually sit in the family room and watch a movie on tv together, then discuss it.
Any one of you thinks that any of the above is reasonable needs their heads examined, or perhaps just decapitated altogether. Me? I was hoping someone would come along and burn the temples down so the ashes could mix with those of the church.
ha!! this is a typical baltimore thing…..!!!
Not sure what to make of nobody having an opinion about this. Or maybe they dont want to feed me any more. LOL
On the same note, Rabbi Simcha Shafran, in his book “Fire, Water & Ice”, tells a great story. He was my neighbor for many years, and I know the story to be true as well.
In his shul, he decided among other things, to install a higher mechitza than was previously there. A memeber (probably more than one) told the rabbi that if they didnt take it down he was leaving and would probably join a more modern, even Conservative shul instead, and would no doubt “have to drive” to go there. Rabbi Shafran told him in no uncertain terms, “Go!”.
Mamash a tzadik gamor.
ever heard of kiruv rechokim? that Rabbi is wrong
Of course he is. He happens to sit on the Baltimore Bais Din though. Doesnt get much better than that.
does that make it impossible for him to be wrong? He’s not infallible…
Of course, you are part of the group that thinks a rabbi works for the congregation and says what they want to hear.
Real Torah Jews want a rabbi who leads them and tells them what to do, not the other way around.
Yoreh Kchetz:
I have to assume there is some kind of limit on replies, becuz I cant reply to your comment above. So I will do it here.
“Naturally, I wouldn’t be upset if 6 million of my sworn enemies perished tomorrow. That doesn’t mean that I admire anything about the nazis.”
So basically the deaths themselves dont bother you, just the methodology? Thats so different than what the liberal faction believes. But I do tend to go for the most radical methods myself. I prefer to eliminate the cruel & unusual part of the Constitution. Make it as cruel as possible, and sell tickets. You do have to give the Nazis props for the discipline, conviction and unrelenting terror they had and created. If that counts as admiration, ok.
Nate,
The methodology for getting rid of our arab enemies would be a lot simpler, just destroy their homes and infrastructure. A few well placed bombs would do it.
I’d reserve the torture / pay per view specials for their leaders and convicted terrorists.
The nazis on the other hand, had absolutely no reason whatsoever to hate the people they killed, they did so out of pure hatred. If the rest of the world had stood by for a few more years, he may have succeeded in wiping out all European Jewry.
The allies (who were mainly goyim), sent their kids in to liberate our asses when we needed them, so, yes, we should be grateful to them for doing so. They could have just as easily sat back eating fries and watching baseball instead of risking their lives for us. They included blacks and other assorted ethnic groups.
Actually thats false. The allies had no clue what was going on other than that the enemy had to be defeated. They didnt get a clue until they liberated the camps, so they really didnt fight for the Jews at all. And though it is clear the Roosevelt knew, he himself said that he didnt want to make it a war about the Jews, becuz the people wouldnt be as interested in fighting, so he kept it secret.
The goyishe world, when it gets down to it, has only 1 thing on their agenda, and that’s the disappearance of Jews, one way or the other. Thats not a persecution complex, its a fact. And anyone who thinks it cant or wont happen again is dreaming.
“The nazis on the other hand, had absolutely no reason whatsoever to hate the people they killed, they did so out of pure hatred.”
I’m pretty sure they had a valid reason, in their eyes. Reasons are relative. Do you think the KKK lynched blacks for no reason?
Frum Lesbo: “This event may in fact help countless more mitzvos take place in this world because it will help show people they are not alone and do not have to choose between being gay and being Jewish but instead can try to find a place in the religious world even if it’s a struggle at times.”
The choice was never and is not now between being gay and being Jewish. The choice is remain abstinent or dont call yourself frum and admit what you do is wrong. Born that way, learned that way, whatever. God didn’t ask for a psychological review of it, He just said not to do it. Don’t mix it all up to support your agenda.
Now onto more relevant things. Do you have any videos for sale of you and your other lesbo lovers?
Avrumy: Try posting down here, nobody wants to scroll up to 3 days ago to see your comments.
So is it true that at the Shabbaton they had lots of TOSSED SALAD? And a lot of BONES? And the girls had a kosher version of BEARDED CLAM?
And then, let me guess, after lunch you played with some gerbils, munched some CARPET, and what else?
You say you are going to mincha? What kind of minyan would tolerate you? Feh!
And that’s all I am going to say to you directly.
Why, a minyan of highly respectable tzadikim, of course!
Yoreh: You are more like me than you know. Future leaders of the Jew Klux Klan, unite!
Nate,
The klan was just as anti Jewish as anti black. Their reasons aren’t valid in my view, which for me, is the only view that counts.
And while I may not associate much with black or gay people in general, I don’t hate them or think they should all be lynched.
I happen to know some very decent black people, more decent than some bearded rabbis I know. I’m not saying it’s the general rule, but it’s fact.
Oh I dont think they should all be lynched either, and I hope I didnt give that impression. But it definitely wouldnt bother me as much as if a Jew were beaten either. I dont believe we were all created equal, and I think a good part of the reason for societal ills is that too many think we were, and they find out that it doesnt shtim with the rest of the world, and it cant be forced either.
People hate Jews cuz we are different. I agree, we are, and are supposed to be. A goy or a black should have a nice home and car too, just not in my neighborhood, is all Im saying.
Nate,
Your missing an important piece to the puzzle. You ARE in THEIR neighborhood. THEY were nice enough to let you or your ancestors in to THEIR country, and THEY are nice enough to let you keep practising Judaism on THEIR turf. You need to acknowledge that, something called hakarat hatov.
Were we living in Israel under Mashiach or possibly under Kahane, things would be different.
I bow to your genius and catching me off-guard. I will use that as part of my “We are in Galus, wake up people!” rant. High-5
Face it, Heshy: This wasn’t your best piece of satire. Maybe the beastiality bit pushed it a little to far. Or, maybe the beastiality bit just was too obvious and not very clever. Keep trying, boychik.
@ nate,
when moshiach comes, “IF” there will be any stoning, you will probably be first in line to get stoned for spending so much time and energy to spread hate and be judgemental against other Jews in a public forum for thousands to read. who do you think you are? your ego “gaivah”
work on yourself. stop being so busy with other ppl’s short comings.