As many of you may know Mark Zuckerberg was named Time person of the year and of course someone on Vos Iz Neias made a comment on how it threatens the sanctity of the pure Jewish family with its promotion of illicit relationships through poking and other things like the “people you may know” feature.
“This is not some frummer rant, the reason Facebook is so successful is because of its popularity among people without strong morals: it facilitates them. Facebook is the single most dangerous threat to the purity of Jewish families. Even among goyim, it is know for its primary purpose of soliciting illicit relationships without accountability because it allows for social interaction between people who would normally avoid contact for ethical reasons. Major bitul torah, major toiva, zero redeeming value. Better to daven at Landaus, Shomer Shabbos or Bnei Yosef than defile a minyan with a Hellenistic social networking tool.”
Look at what some people of a similar ilk said about other modern day inventions:
“The wheel is against the Torah, it will only make people more timely when doing sins, they will be able to travel faster and have time to stop for sin along the way, the wheel is a goyishe invention that will surely lead to klal yisroels demise”
When the automobile started becoming popular it was said to be evil as well:
“this thing the automobile is only allowing people to be alone in far away places, it is as if satan himself was invited into the automobile and allowed to do evil things away from prying eyes. There are countless people who use cars to meet people they would not normally meet and be alone with them and their temptation to sin. The Automobile is clearly an issur diorysa and any yid who wishes to own one should not be counted in a minyan, besides the wagon is in our mesorah and the car is not.”
Telephones were a mamish nisayon of the times:
“Telephones allow for the easy telling of loshon horah, most people do not tell loshon horah in public, but the telephone, especially the party line system will allow for easy loshon horah to entire households and it should not be allowed to dirty out lives. The telephone also makes it easy for lusting talk to occur away from public venues.”
The microwave is the work of the sitra achra:
Shall we do away with outr mesorah of slow cooked foods in crock pots and on blechs? Shall we decry the thousands of years we spent roaming the Pale in search of good cholent in the name of quick and easy food? The microwave is clearly a motivation for sin, how could we eve know what bracha to make on processed foods which may contain treife?”
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good one
Unless its profitable for Jews its Assur
I don’t know. The inventor of facebook is a Jewish kid who’s a billionaire (that’s with a ‘B’) now. I’d say that’s pretty profitable for at least one Jew!
Excellent post, Heshy! Very insightful and funny. Although personally, I think there’s a lot of truth to the comment about the telephone. I truly believe that lashon hara probably increased by a factor of at least 50 with the popularization of the telephone.
The comment about the telephone is actually straight from my father – they used to debate about this very issue when the party line was how phone calls were made.
YOU remember the party line? Because I BARELY remember it and I think I’m 8 years older than you if Im not mistaken-at least 5 years…..
Michaltastik, I think he was saying that his Dad remembers the party line.
Not a few areas had party lines into the 1990s
Funny. Sad. True.
so true about the automobile! it gives me the opportunity to go to far off places and meet people i would not normally meet and sin in the privacy of my car. oh, wait, no. not since getting married and having kids.
There is nothing quite like making out in the back of a car – so 1960’s
It’s embarrassing how accurate this is. (The Wheel! LMAO… So true.)
One of the best in a while!
Everything is a threat to Purity. I’m having a Dr. Strangelove moment here…
General Jack D. Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue… a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I… I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.
General Jack D. Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh… women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh… I do not avoid women, Mandrake.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No.
General Jack D. Ripper: But I… I do deny them my essence.
Uh, so let’s get going, there’s no other choice. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural… fluids. God bless you all
met my spouse on fb…as did many other friends of mine. I shidduch dated for years – didnt work out for me.
bottom line, if you use it with honorable intentions (like cars, microwaves, telephones etc) then there is nothing wrong with it. Temptation doesnt always have to lead to sin. It depends on your morals and your power to overcome your “evil” desires or yetzer hara.
banning it bc a few ppl decided to use it to flirt with ppl they shouldnt have been, doesnt make it assur for everyone.
Fans try to seduce me over facebook, but my yetzer tov is strong
A lot of guys have names for it. That’s the first time I’ve heard it called that.
Yeah, Heshy because we don’t remember you admitting that you were in bed with a naked girl who said it wasn’t tznius to see a naked person on TV. Then the two of you laughed because you guys weren’t so tznius yourselves.
NOTE: I’m sure that’s the wrong agreement of tznius/tzanua however, I ain’t texting an Israeli at 1:53am to get the plural version.
I have no idea what you’re talking about – the only naked girls I have ever seen where at the San Francisco gay pride parade, but I swear I didn’t look
Talk about selective memory……I distinctly remember the particular post Michaltastik is referring to!
Jeez everyone takes me so seriously
Isn’t it wonderful that everyone understands sarcasm?
Get’s me so down sometimes
Hesh, so basically your point is, anything short of actual porn is ok and shouldn’t be opposed…. correct?
You do realize this entire post is a strawman argument. You’re trying to make it sound like these people think there’s something inherently wrong with facebook – simply based on what it can theoretically facilitate.
This is not the case.
There are two very obvious distinctions between facebook and the rest of the things you mentioned.
a) Facebook doesn’t just facilitate illicit behavior. It’s success is primarily due to it’s specifically accomodating those interested in finding relationships.
b) Unlike facebook, the rest of the examples do not create or introduce anything to anyone. They just accomplish things quicker and more efficiently.
For example, an innocent BY girl who was never involved in boys, can begin getting caught up with them through facebook.
Even you would agree (I hope), that hypothetically, if there were a website which was located out of the governments reach, and which – among other innocent things – gave kids accessibility to drugs, the website would be a bad thing, dispite the fact that it is not a “Drug website” per se.
The idea that facebook can be harmful, and perhaps “isn’t worth it” when taking all the pros and cons into account, is not exclusively a frummy thing. Many non-Jews think the same way. It’s actually kind of obvious to anyone with a discerning eye.
Jeez way to take the fun out of things – I know you’re smarter than you give off, but do you actually think I agree with most of things I write???
Seriously now, you can skim through my entire life of postings and realize pretty easily that I write opposing views all the time and am constantly contradicting myself over and over again, but you just had to come and take me so seriously – lighten up, light up the bowl, turn on some Joanna Angel flick and join the party.
You’re joking, but look at all the comments saying “So true” and “I agree, it’s rediculous”.
Ok yankel…impressive speech as usual. i wonder where you glean your wisdom from…i think i know someone just like u. Didn’t meet him on facebook, but there are other ways to get involved with guys, right?
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying…
seems like you just described frumster…
“It’s success is primarily due to it’s specifically accomodating those interested in finding relationships”
and
“For example, an innocent BY girl who was never involved in boys, can begin getting caught up with them through”… FRUMSTER!!
If anything Frumster is worse then Facebook! Facebook ALSO fosters and promotes friendship, on Frumster everyone’s end game is to get laid.
I’m not familiar with frumster, but I was under the impression that it was mainly a shidduchim site. Like real shidduchim, not “Shidduchim”.
But do many teenagers really meet each other through frumster? I mean don’t the administrators try to avoid that?
There are two very obvious distinctions between facebook and the rest of the things you mentioned….
The idea that facebook can be harmful, and perhaps “isn’t worth it” when taking all the pros and cons into account, is not exclusively a frummy thing.
The point of the article is to point out the attitude of the establishment towards new technology, or anything “modern”. Immediate banning, with no regard for keeping up with reality. It is not, as you try to claim, limited to Facebook. It’s the same deal with internet, cell phones, texting, newspapers, TV, college, science. This is obvious to anyone with no vested interest in defending the system. Times have changed, and we aren’t as pure as people in the Europe. We need to engage the world. That’s the nature of the beast that is America. You have to tackle it head on, not pretend we’re living in a different time and place.
It is for a very simple reason. The extreme reactionary version of the Jewish Orthodoxy requires absolute tyranny over every aspect of the cultist’s life. Every view, every intention, every word, every action, how you make a living, every effort, your concentration and what you are mindful of must fit an increasingly rigid regime of control. Any deviation is forbidden. And the acceptable variations always shrink.
It cannot survive contact with other ideas let alone freedom of conscience and action.
That is why communication must be restricted.
That is why dangerous things like science, literature and philosophy are locked down so tightly.
And that’s why really basic drives like eating, friendship and mating are neurotically or psychotically controlled and why history is constantly re-written to say that things were always this way.
You really have to pity the people in charge of this. They see nothing but themselves and evil. So they make it their life’s work to turn everyone into copies of themselves or shut them out.
best comment ever. fight the system.
From several of your comments on this subject, it seems to me that you don’t seem to understand the system very much.
There aren’t cult leaders trying to make people into copies of themselves. The real gedolim are people who have an old-fashioned mindset as to how to help klal yisroel function in a holy way. They aren’t evil, just out of touch with how things function in the modern world. The people who really can be called ‘controlling’ things, at least somewhat, are the 40-50 yr old generation who misrepresent things to perpetuate a certain way of life (because of fear of change). It’s these people who perpetuate an antiquated system, and are aging so-called ‘Yeshivish’ Judaism into an rusty anachronism that doesn’t match up with the world. The problem is that the movement has built up it’s own momentum and has no real leaders to direct it.
Your clarifications are well thought out and make sense. I will take them to heart and consider them carefully in future writings, even the ones I disagree with.
“No True Scotsman” concerns aside your point about real gedolim is well taken. Not everyone with a funny hat (any religion’s funny hat) is a spiritually advanced person.
That said the pattern is unmistakable.
The tendency towards ever-increasing restrictions, essential fear and mistrust of outsiders and treating the larger world as inherently evil are classic signs of destructive cults. Adoption of uniform dress, restriction of access to information and cutting off contact with non-members are other criterion symptoms. Excessive emphasis on romance and the “S” word, particularly when it comes down to restricting and prohibiting access to members of the opposite gender and harsh control over relations is one of the biggest.
I see these tendencies very worrisome, especially as all other traditions and forms of Judaism are in decline.
I agree with you. Thank God for the internet though because it gives people a way to voice their feelings on the issue without fear of reprisal. I think (hope) the internet will usher in a revolution in Judaism. The old guard will put up a fight, no doubt, but give it 10-15 more years and hopefully we’re going to see some real change.
Yeah, that bothered me too…
I had a student tell me that Moshe Rabbeinu OF COURSE wore a black hat, because he was so holy and tznius…I told her everybody basically wore linen and wool…she responding that I was “stupid” and didn’t know what I was talking about since her father told her it was true…a total distortion of history and the truth. Another girl told be dinosaurs never roamed the Earth and that H’ put the bones in the ground to weed out His true believers…Ummm…
So where do you draw your line of “evidence” vs what the Torah tells us is true?
Do you believe the world is at 5771?
The hat thing is pretty stupid, but you seem to be just as misinformed in the other direction.
No less than R’ Avigdor Miller states the above view about the dinosaur bones. If you don’t have that view yourself – nu. There are other Torah greats who say they did in fact once exist, but not as long ago as they appear to have.
But if you think it CAN’T be true, then you’re on the level of “Moshe rabbeinu wore a black hat”.
Yeah, I thought that the whole point of Frumster was to meet other marriage-minded adults. :^O
I don’t think the point of Facebook is to “get laid” — I’m a huge Facebook person, and I have always used it for purposes of good, not evil, LOL — but I DEFINITELY don’t think shady romance is the point of Frumster.
It;s to get laid in a frum environment
bring back vosizneias comment of the day!
Technology as weapons of mass destruction. The Rabbis in our community have indeed spoken extensively on the dangers of the internet. They liken it to “weapons of mass destruction” from the point of view of Shalom Bayit (a peaceful home) aka a code term for both marital fidelity and peaceful relations between husband and wife. There is no doubt that the internet has indeed capture the attention of everyone. Facebook itself is a strong tool and a bit scary in that it is so easy to spend so much time on this “nearly meaningless” method of social interaction. Ah, and the party lines, I have lived through two vastly different examples of this idea.
I think actual weapons of mass destruction are weapons of mass destruction, and are threatening to Shalom Bayit in every sense on an atomic scale. Gasp! Why haven’t WMDs been banned from yiddeshe homes yet?
Seriously though, possible dangers do not equal real dangers. You have to show several reliable studies on the “Effect of Internet Usage on Incidence and Prevalence of Disruptive and Negative Behaviors in Orthodox Homes” if you are going to make a trustworthy and responsible policy choice. This has not been done to the best of my knowledge, so the extensive speaking of the Rabbis carries no real weight.
They also liken everyone they don’t like to Amalek or Hitler.
Real “weapons of mass destruction” leave tens of thousands of actual dead bodies lying around. Not “spiritually dead”. Not “dead to the community”. Actual rotting corpses. The rabbinic tendency towards overblown bombast requires that rational thinking people ignore most of what they say.
Oi, Yankel makes me laugh.
Glad I could brighten up your day a little.
To yankel and others:
I believe that the only “thing” that makes a person sin is that person. No one is forcing anybody onto facebook and doing all sorts of non-religious or non halachik things.
I hear a lot of “such and such can lead to sin so its ban” type statements from the frum community. For me thats akin to saying being alive can lead to sin. People can use facebook for sin. big deal. you can use your brain for sin. should we all be lobotomized?
Stop trying to blame all of the problems of the world on “things” and start to realize the problem is with people. People sin. It happens.
All you need to worry about is not sinning and how you can best accomplish that not by imposing your own irrational fears on the jewish community at large.
I think the amount of good that comes out of Facebook far outweighs the bad – the amount of Torah being learned and people being connected with kiruv organizations is pretty insane.
Yoni,
I don’t think anyone would dispute the fact that it is ultimately the choice of an individual which determines his or her actions, and that what one does with their life is up to them and not their surroundings.
However, it doesn’t start and end there.
First of all, there are many adolescents who plainly and simply lack basic common sense and responsibility. Providing such an individual with access to people and things which are as tempting as they are harmful, can significantly undermine their decision making, for them now, as well as for their eventual future.
Secondly, although you seem to be of the opinion that only the last decision to actually commit an action is what decides everything, and only that is what should be focused on, we have recieved instructions at Mt. Sinai as to how we should be approaching the difficulties and temptations we encounter throughout life, and they sing a very different tune.
One can even go as far as to say, that the main area of our responsibility lies in our avoiding sin in the first place.
You won’t be asked “Why did you sin that time?” You’ll be asked why did you go to that party when you knew what could very well happen there?”
One who truly fears and respects the word of G-d, will not take a chance of violating it. Even if it sometimes means refraining from harmless activities and/or places one enjoys.
The very first mishna in Pirkei Avos: “Asu syag l’Torah” – “Create for yourselves a fence which will distance you from violating the Torah”.
“Asu syag l’Torah”- “Create for yourselves a fence which will distance you from violating the Torah”.
Just wondering about the word “syag” and its meaning, literal or symbolic. Does it simply mean “fence”? Would others please comment?
It’s in the mishnah. It’s meant to be symbolic. There’s no Mizva to make a little fence around a sefer torah, or something like that.
Thanks for your reply, OfftheDwB. It seems that some of the “fences” are more like massive stone walls surrounded by moats full of nasty alligators.
The hight or strength of the “fence” is irrelevant. The point is that it must effectively distance one from transgressing.
If you are strong enough that you only need a few feet distance, and that keeps you away – then you fulfill your obligation with it, dispite it’s being small.
However, if you find that you need “a moat with alligators”, then that is in fact your responsibility, and nothing less.
First of all I’d like to say Ive never poked anyone on facebook, the thought is just appalling.
Now for real thought you might find this interesting
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=27402
how about this…
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=11743&alias=mystery-men-33
LOL Sheva, that last one was hilarious.
I’d have to agree that FB can be dangerous. People have found their HS boyfriend or girlfriend on FB, met the person for lunch and ended up having an affair. This is a case where you want to avoid friending an ex much less meeting them.
Seriously Heshy, do you really believe your own statement: …”amount of good that comes out of Facebook far outweighs the bad”….
I have spent (or wasted- too much time on Facebook)..on the other hand I also have gotten shabbos invitations as as result of my networking via Facebook. However small minority of anything frum going on on Facebook has got to be incredibly dwarfed by the amount of things that any observant Jew would be forced to admit is simply “not Kosher”.
Heshy, it’s okay to change your mind you know, or perhaps your statement was simply more frum satire in the first place.
There are too many things to list, but let’s just say I 100% agree with that statement.
From a Torah perspective, I’m going to deny you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume that your agreeing with the statement is a result of your lack of concern for the Torah’s violation, and not because you see a positive side of FB which the rest of us are unaware of.
From a secular perspective – who knows. You might be correct.
I use facebook all the time. I have about 160 close friends, relatives, and a few (probably less than 20) random people I don’t know in real life but met through other groups online…. and I can tell you not a SINGLE one of them has ever used facebook as a means of finding a parter or sex. I doubt any of them could tell me of any of their friends who have used facebook for such things. If frum people are on fb looking for sex and other forbdden things that says more about the frum community than fb
How can you “tell me” that not a single one of them ever used it for those things? Are you a prophet? Are you saying that because they didn’t tell you about it – they must not have done it?
Can you even say with confidence about any one of those 160, that they aren’t depraved s@x-addicts?
How can you “doubt that any of them know anyone” who used it for that? Isn’t that a bit beyond your range of knowledge?
How do you explain the status which you’re required to give of yourself?
If it has nothing to do with finding partners, why is status even there?
Your naivete is quite astounding.