It used to be that whenever I made fun of the Charedim (the one’s in Israel who start riots when the parking lot is open on shabbos or that want the women to sit in back of the bus) I would get all types of screaming from the nosebleeds. Those folks who happen to stumble upon my blog that day to find me jabbing at their own kind and get all up in arms over it. I would get called a chillul Hashem and Antisemitic on a regular basis by folks who took what I was saying to be serious. Sure, I get called those things once in a while, but nowadays it’s rarely because of poking fun at the Charedim. You see, in the past 5 years or so the Charedim have developed into a more violent and fanatical group than ever and with pretty much everyone in the world tuning into it cross many mediums.
Sure, I can turn a bunch of Charedim burning dumpsters in their own neighborhoods into a joke, but in the grand scheme of things it matters because anything that puts a rift in between Jews should matter to us. Rifts will always exist for sure, but when the rifts go beyond the pale of Torah and Halacha, they matter even more. It’s as if the yeshivish community and the gedolim silently support the ideological rifts that are expanding in Israel. Like, it’s better to support violent Charedim than to take the side of anyone secular or modernishe chas v’shalom. In many ways it reminds me of how hard it is to get a Muslim cleric to denounce some sort of violence against Israel.
I have no idea what the solution is, but it doesn’t seem that the frum community is aware of how big a deal the situation in Israel is. I’m not there, but you can pretty much go to any media channel, right wing or left wing and see that the situation in going to get out of hand.
Find charedi riots on 4torah.com
A thoughtful break from the humor. I don’t know the solution either. But a lot of Intelligence and Military officers in Israel consider the radicalization of the Charedim and their effect on the economy to be the single biggest existential threat to the nation’s existence.
what effect on the economy? They are an integral part of the Israeli economy (dont spin the broken record line “they are parasites and live off the government)
Just go in to any Haredi area and you’ll see the economy booming–makolets, shiputzim, taxi’s, buses, etc……….
Yeah, and if you go to any Chareidi area, you’ll also find that 60% live below the poverty line, and that more than 60% of Chareidi men are unemployed. Yes, they are parasites who live off the government. There’s no way around that fact.
living below the poverty line has nothing to do with economic output. living off the government???? I’m sure they are “living” off of the $310 kollel stipend and 1500-2000 from Bituach Leumi.
I’m going to assume you know nothing about economics.
What do you think the building companies and all the building suppliers that make their living building additions in Beitar or Kiryat Sefer think of the parasites?
what about Yuval and Dror, the food distributors for Osem, who sell their product to hundreds of makolets in haredi neighborhoods (and of course the transportation companies that deliver them non-stop), what do they think of the parasites.
what do the hundreds of employees in the Angel Bakery in Givat Shaul think of the parasitic vermin who live off the government.
And what the gas station owner/workers at the PazGaz station on Route 4 near Bnei Brak think of Chareidim?
do Charedim fly on El Al?
I’m drinking a coca-cola right now. I know that factory in Bnai Brak that employs hundreds of people, sells their product in virtually EVERY makolet and chareidi pizzeria in Israel.
Do you really think that Charedim dont contribute to the economy???????
By the way, I’m Charedi, and live and work in Israel. oh, and I just got bills from Hashmal, cellcom, bezeq and homeowners insurance–I’m sure I contribute to the Israeli economy.
Leaving out the insults and non-sequitirs, you are right. Charedi poverty is very high. But the fact remains that they receive a huge portion of the Israeli budget both in direct payment and consumption of social services. They tend to be in low-wage, low-skill jobs because their educational system does not prepare them for anything else. Their workplace participation is low which means that they are consuming rather than producing.
I won’t “spin the broken line”. But I will tell the truth.
By current measures they are the worst educated, least-skilled, most unemployed sector of the economy even beating out Israeli Arabs. The men have a sea-bottom low workplace participation rate, and the women are disproportionately in low-paying and “informal sector” (black market off-books) jobs. The percentage of their household income accounted for by government benefits is the highest in the nation with another huge chunk coming in the form of charity which comes out of other Jews’ household budgets. Payments to full-time kollel students and their families are a significant drain on the Israeli economy and have eaten into military training and readiness among other things.
Of those who are employed a very large proportion are in positions whose whole focus is religious ritual – mashgiachim, rabbonim, yeshiva teachers and so on. These jobs do not add economic value and mostly shuffle money around within the community rather than creating wealth or bringing it in from outside through trade.
You may not like to hear it, but the Charedim are a serious drag on the Israeli economy. And as their numbers, but not education and participation, grow it will get worse. Academic economists know this. Israeli government Ministries know this. The UN bodies that study demography and Labor markets know this. The OECD knows this.
The only ones still in denial are the Charedim.
My reply will be in the filter for a few hours. Please wait for it. Suffice it to say, the Charedi communities are economic disaster zones. Academic, governmental, international and independent economists all agree on this.
Do you ever get tired of “knowing it all”?
Find a hobby.
Great post
First problem to tackle: The bread thing.
Seriously since when is it normal to leave loaves of bread on every outdoor electrical box whatever-thing in Geula/Meah Shearim/Zichron Moshe/etc? We need bread collection bins, then compost it up. Something. Seriously it’s gross. They don’t have this problem in Beitar! Get to it people.
You know, I’ve never thought or done this before. But this time I actually am considering calling you an antisemite.
Dan, to you anyone who tells truths you don’t like is an anti-semite. When it oozes from your pen the word loses all meaning.
You loser. You know I’ve never called anyone on this site that term in the 2 years I’ve been commenting.
You have become so delusional and divorced from any fact, that I assume you are on drugs. It is no longer even pleasant to bicker with you, because there is absolutely nothing intellectual involved.
Hi Heshy,
Ignore the haters…they are too predictable, and they shouldn’t even be on your site because it is not the mehadrin internet. No doubt, you are one of the most authentic Jewish journalists of the 21st century…I wish you got some paid gigs writing for the Jewish Week or the Forward, unfortunately not much money to be had in this field. The great thing about this site is that it’s for the “in” crowd. I think if you anthologized your posts as a secular market book it could be hugely popular but make Jews look bad. Anyway, just musing.
@Dan – I hope you said that in jest as there is nothing anti-Semitic about Heshy’s POV on this issue. In fact, he’s showing more concern and care for Jews, Judaism and Israel than most with regard to this. The Charedim have become the laughing stock of and a source of derision by modern media and society today. Their behavior and ideology is deeply disturbing.
“The Charedim have become the laughing stock of and a source of derision by modern media and society today. Their behavior and ideology is deeply disturbing”.
This same kind of critique has been used to describe Torah observant Jewry of any flavor by most of modern media and society today and is true of even the Jewish secular media and society in Israel.To a large degree this has also been the rallying cry of many in the gentile world in their attitude towards Jewry for the last two thousand years. We’ve always been ridiculed for being different then our Gentile neighbors.Am I being paranoid for thinking so? Definitely not.Whether this has been a overt or covert dislike it still has been a historical reality and to think otherwise,as many would like to do, is to deny the veracity of our history.
To illustrate my above point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8A0uUYuId8&feature=player_embedded
So why are the Charedi becoming more radical lately? Would they deny this is the case? Would they say it is simply because they finally have the clout to implement their own way of doing things on a larger scale?
Is there some larger historical shift whose contours are hard to see whereby Judaism, Islam and Christianity each have more and more fundamentalist and violent strains?
The reigning (2,000+ years) hero of the Christian religion pitched a fit and got results (knocked over some tables at the Temple). Don’t forget about that one.
Maybe we shouldn’t begrudge others for their righteous anger as long as it doesn’t kill us. We might catch some of their ferver, too — one day, about something…
Umm…would you care to identify the current “violent” strains of Christianity? I mean, as other than practiced by the Republican Party, but their current presidential candidate isn’t even a Christian.
Please let me know who these Christians “fundamentalists” are who are attacking others, throwing stones, blowing people up, etc. Last I looked it was the Christians who were having their churches burned and being massacred. It’s the Christians who get spat on when they process through the streets of Jerusalem.
@ Rebecca
Disclaimer: I’m not even Jewish — so what do I know :0
But I have nonetheless often wondered if criticism (shaming?) of the Charedim by fellow Jews does anything in the way of inspiring anyone to do anything other than dig in their heels.
Like a family member who seems OUT THERE to us, we just have to accept that they aren’t going to/have no reason to change. Not now –not when they’ve spent their whole lives getting this way!
Sounds like wisdom is bobbing it’s head with you. Now you can perhaps see why we normal Jews with jobs don’t always find yeschivische idiosyncrasies to be so cute. This didn’t just start overnight.
Welcome to the real world,Heshy. Marriage is doing you good.
But the ‘gedolim’ and ‘roshei yeshivas’ love the secular and modern folks who give bundles of cash to their yeshivas etc. I love seeing them suck up that way. They would never normally speak to these people.
And as times get tougher and the “Great Old Ones'” contempt becomes clearer they are finding the donations harder to come by.
The lines on that graph are running together. When they meet things will change and not in a pleasant way.
I hope you and the other commenter aren’t just practising your taquiya. Really, I dp/
This isn’t taqiyya. We’re not denying our religion out of self-protection. This is criticism of perceived faults in the way things are practiced which is a different thing entirely.
s/read “…do”
Mab – not at all. Just being serious, practical and realistic.
I don’t ignore the charedim. This would be easy to do if they were straight point blank evil. after all I almost never write a word about Islam because there is little that is hard to understand there. “Kill Jews and Christians and win valuable prizes.” The thing that is fascinating about Charedim is the presence of good and evil in a strange mix. this is not just looking at it from the outside. even from the inside i found it fascinating in this way. I think Rebbi Nachmna is a good example of this phenomenon. A tzadik that seems to have a trail of not such kosher people following him. The Litvak world also seems similar. Looking at the teachings you would expect some high moral standards. But the opposite seems to happen. The more involved people get in it the worse they become. This is at least to me a fascinating subject.
Your view of Islam is as accurate as Volksfront’s is about Jews.
A. Nuran hates Judaism and Christianity (particularly Catholicism) but he has a soft squishy spot in his heart for that religion of love, tolerance, and brotherhood, Islam. There is nothing too insulting or outrageous you can say about the first two religions that won’t get a smile of approval from him but *speak respectfully about Islam!* Seriously now — do not even joke that there could be any large, militant, armed Islamic organizations that have as their goal the killing of Jews and/or Christians! I mean, most of these people spend their days in a monastary praying for their enemies.
Nope. I don’t hate Christianity and Judaism. I do hate liars and fanaticism. And if you think I hate Catholics in particular, stop projecting. You’re welcome to kiss the ring of ex-Hitler Youth and worship your whole pantheon of re-treaded pagan gods. More power to you.
If you actually knew jack about me you’d know I’m terrified of the Dominionist Christian Right. And I despise Charedism because it’s becoming just like the Salafists whom I also loathe. They should know better, but the only thing they’ve learned from oppression is that it’s more fun to be the one doing the oppressing.
The vast majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims are decent people. Yes, that includes you and the rest of your communion. The reactionary, xenophobic, Know Nothing fanatics are all cut from the same hose whether they mumble their filth in Latin, Hebrew or Arabic.
And of course you show the high quality of your Catholic education here. Unable to actually answer a single allegation you foam at the mouth and say “But he must be a Mooozzzlllummm, so he’s wrong.” The Dogs of God (Domino Canes) and the Society of Jesus missed a sharp theologian when you were born a setter instead of a pointer, yes indeed.
Um…to what allegations do you refer? I think you’re having a conversation in your own mind (must be an interesting one though).
Zur made a comment that, unpacked, basically amounts to: “There is no point in commenting about Islamic fundamentalism and fanatacism because it amounts to “killing Jews and Christians in the name of Islam is a good thing” and that’s obviously a *bad* thing so there’s not much to discuss. Fundamentalist Judaism, on the other hand, has both good and bad aspects to it.”
All of this was compressed into a single line and he then went on to discuss fundamentalist Judaism. You (as always) felt the need to leap to the defense of Islam. I commented that you always feel the need to leap to the defense of Islam while you love to insult Judaism and Christianity. You then answered with a number of gratuitous insults to Christianity (thank you for illustrating my point) and the comment “Unable to actually answer a single allegation you foam at the mouth and say “But he must be a Mooozzzlllummm, so he’s wrong” which I find incomprehensible in the context of this exchange.
BTW, women are perfectly welcome to be theologians in the Catholic Church and indeed there are a number of very well known female Catholic theologians. And this goes back a good thousand years. Again, I direct you to “Catholicism for Dummies” (of Google) to fill in some basic blanks in your knowledge.
Um…to what allegations do you refer? I think you’re having a conversation in your own mind (must be an interesting one though).
Zur made a comment that, unpacked, basically amounts to: “There is no point in commenting about Islamic fundamentalism and fanatacism because it amounts to “killing Jews and Christians in the name of Islam is a good thing” and that’s obviously a *bad* thing so there’s not much to discuss. Fundamentalist Judaism, on the other hand, has both good and bad aspects to it.”
All of this was compressed into a single line and he then went on to discuss fundamentalist Judaism. You (as always) felt the need to leap to the defense of Islam. I commented that you always feel the need to leap to the defense of Islam while you love to insult Judaism and Christianity. You then answered with a number of gratuitous insults to Christianity (thank you for illustrating my point) and the comment “Unable to actually answer a single allegation you foam at the mouth and say “But he must be a Mooozzzlllummm, so he’s wrong” which I find incomprehensible in the context of this exchange.
BTW, women are perfectly welcome to be theologians in the Catholic Church and indeed there are a number of very well known female Catholic theologians. And this goes back a good thousand years. Again, I direct you to “Catholicism for Dummies” (of Google) to fill in some basic blanks in your knowledge.
Sorry about the duplicate post. But just further FYI, there are many famous American women theologians. The chair of the Department of Theology of Fordham University (a prominant Catholic university) is a woman, for example. There are no restrictions on women whatsoever in Christianity (“for there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, but all are one in Christ”) except for the sacramental priesthood, since the priest stands “in persona Christi” and while we say that men and women are equal, we have not yet gotten so advanced as to look at a woman and see a man.
Who would care about their narishkeyt if Israel had a separation between shul and state? This is why Haredim hold the nation captive with their radicalization. Also, (gasp!) the secular Israeli idea of :”Orthodox shuls are the only real shuls, but I never go there!” should change. State-sponsored religion means one sect gets to run the show. From the States, this situation appears laughable.
Dorot makes a good point. Even within Orthodox it’s all about who has the biggest chumrah. “I won’t let goyim take a dump in my toilet on Pesach because their turds may have chometz!” T
All the more ironic is the Charedim love for the silly black what is it, bordelino, cowboy hats which fetch for $200. A lot of these folks are on welfare and they’re buying luxury head ware. They’re still wearing Polish winter clothing under the Jerusalem summer’s sun. The fact that all the gedolim had jobs is something the Charedim eiether ignore or haven’t read about yet.
The Charedim arguably have made a ba’al out of the Eastern European shtetl. Their Zion isn’t Jerusalem but more like Minsk.
Heshy, thanks for the open and honest thoughts. I prefer these so much more, personally.
Just a small thought, because I know I’ve written about this from the opposite angle: perhaps part of the reason you look at it that way is because you haven’t been to Israel. I feel like in America it is so much easier to imagine this horrible huge division and to forget all the things happening on the ground.
The truth is, when you’re living it there, it’s not the same. Most Hareidim get along just fine with secular Israelis. And most Hareidim are very good people.
The problem is, I think, that so many people experience it ONLY through the media. This makes a huge distortion, because most media distorts Hareidim and their world.
Not to say that what much of what you say is true, but just trying to point out a thought.
Heshy, you’re using the term charedi to mean extreme charedi. Lots of non-extreme people, including regular yeshivish people in the US, call themselves charedi. And everyone in Israel acknowledges that the extremists who are rioting and such are a small minority of charedim, mainly in Meah Shearim and Beit Shemesh. There’s even a growing phenomenon in Israel of the “new-charedim” or “post-charedim” who are more moderate, work for a living, don’t necessarily believe in the strict version of da’as Torah. Just saying…