The writer of this letter asked me to his identity anonymous
As a Man floating in the purgatory between married and single, I am torn. I am torn between many things. Between forgiveness and judgment, between sacrifice and greed but mostly between right and wrong. But mostly I am lost. There is so much buzz about shidduch crisis yet almost none about the divorce crisis, the infidelity crisis. The lack of discussion really upsets me because I am standing in the middle of the swamp of divorce after making many friends who are divorced. Yet we all say the same thing. At first we were lost. Emotionally, yes. But even after that, as individuals, we had to test the waters to learn who we could talk to, what we could and couldn’t say. Where to get support, what to do, and how to do it.
I have it doubly tough (not that I am complaining about that, don’t get me started though), there are many social services designed to help divorcees. Many more than in religious circles (which is odd really as Jewish divorce can only be done religiously so shouldn’t there be support). But regardless of Religious or social there is almost no support for the men in divorces. Especially the innocent men. The men who were cheated on. The men who tried to stand by and forgive and forget (which according to most sources is assur).
Now the last thing I want to do is beg for help. I am too proud for that. I just want to know why there is so little religious support for both sides. Why divorce isn’t a conversation that is had before marriage. And why a ketubah is so one sided.
Although this is not satire, this is a political and social topic. A good question that deserves an answer. Maybe a reader can help. Maybe starting the conversation will bring it closer to the forefront of conversation. Divorces will always be the subject of undue stigma (unless a politician/lawyer/asshole), but for the next group of people who go through something similar maybe there will be some help out there.
Not to kick you while you’re down, but this post was pretty worthless. If you’re so eager to have a conversation started, start the conversation! Stop making oblique references to all the problems divorced people have in the Jewish community, and start describing them, at the very least!
Issues stem from everywhere starting with lying durring shudduchim, kitubot that do not penalize the woman, the requirement of double courts, one sided views on women always being the victim resulting in attacks on the males character, outdated custody laws and the resulting outdated social services,
due to the patriarchal system that is Judaism, it creates an unbalanced system. Most of the Torah and Talmud teaches that responsibility for everything is on the male including the failure of a marriage. This is often not the case in today’s day and age. I am not going on a woman bashing spree, nor do I intend to.
This post was intended only to raise a point, and how ever indirect it may be the following demonstrates my position perfectly. That while there are many of Aguna support groups. There is not one that will dare to assume that the woman is at fault and is holding up the works let alone take action against the women.
as far as I undrstand jewish law, the wife has very limited rights. If she wants the divorce, she is a moredet and gets no money, if she cheats on her husband, even worse.
So I feel you have a very biased view.
Much, MUCH more limited than under most forms of Christianity or Islam.
Hello “anon” (author of this letter):
When you say the wife cheated do you mean literally with the full actual physical relations? If so, how do you know with confidence that it occurred? And why would you have tried to forgive such an ultimate sin? What happened to the male who sinned with her as a result of his partaking in that infidelity?
Also, I would tend to think that a Orthodox Jewish wife actually engaging in infidelity is a very rare occurrence. Are you insinuating otherwise, and if so on what basis do you make that allegation of any such widespread behavior among Orthodox ex-wives other than whatever occurred in a personal situation?
How was the cheating discovered? Does she acknowledge and admit she cheated? What triggered the divorce later if that was forgiven?
Yeruchem,
Can you please explain your fascination with cheating? And can you please explain why it is up to the poor letter writer to satisfy your curiosity?
Seems to me he came here to talk about the lack of understanding and support for male sufferers of divorce, why does he have to put up with your Curious George questions?
Shragi,
For the same reason the letter writer asks us to entertain his inquiry and respond to it, and of us readers have the right to ask of him questions tangentially or otherwise related to what he wrote.
It is a two-way street you know.
Yeah I know, David.
Except, of course, that asking someone to entertain a question is not the same as asking someone about their private lives. But you knew that, you’re just draying a kup.
No, Shragi. The letter writer opened his personal life to the readership here and, thus, it is entirely fair for him to expect questions on the points he himself publicized. That, and the fact the letter writer remains anonymous.
Nu nu, have it your way. But I’d suggest you offer him a box of chocolates or something in return for his answering your questionnaire – if you want him to answer, that is.
That’s what pre-nups are about
Ok but who does that for real?
Ok but who does that for real?
Technically that is the role of a kitubah. it stipulates a payout in event of a failed marriage but only recognizes the potential for the husband to fail.
OffthedWannaB- me
Me
Issues stem from everywhere starting with lying durring shudduchim, kitubot that do not penalize the woman, the requirement of double courts, one sided views on women always being the victim resulting in attacks on the males character, outdated custody laws and the resulting outdated social services,
due to the patriarchal system that is Judaism, it creates an unbalanced system. Most of the Torah and Talmud teaches that responsibility for everything is on the male including the failure of a marriage. This is often not the case in today’s day and age. I am not going on a woman bashing spree, nor do I intend to.
This post was intended only to raise a point, and how ever indirect it may be the following demonstrates my position perfectly. That while there are many of Aguna support groups. There is not one that will dare to assume that the woman is at fault and is holding up the works let alone take action against the women.
Your point is well taken. Fear of a divorce disaster is one of the reasons I didn’t get married in the first place. On the other hand, I have met many divorcees who seem eager to get married again.
I’m not sure what type of help you need but if you will get divorced try and do it quickly and respectfully, then get on with your life…
Perhaps the ketuba has a few things in it to protect women, but men still hold the power of giving a get, so in my eyes the men hold all of the cards in divorce. Unless a woman can get divorced without being granted a get by her husband I think what you are saying is sour grapes.
That said, you are correct, there should be a money back guarantee from shadchanim if the marriage does not work out. That way they will be much more careful about shidduchim.
The money should never be a concern. And while a male has the power to write and hand over the get, the woman has to accept it. Further if the women will not go to beit din the man cannot give her a get in today’s world. But putting that to the side.
Bigger issues can stem just from the outdated and one-sided nature of the legaleses of divorce. Custody law is highly skewed and is the single most frustrating part of any divorce. If there is one area that should be fixed, that is it. I wish I could get into more details about what is going on personally, but the timing is prohibitive, since I am in the thick of it all now. What I can say though is that most of my battle in all arenas (halachically, legally, and socially) is because of stigmas and “gender profiling”. Especially with regards to custody.
I think he’s got a great point. Nobody ever tells the man’s side of the story (regardless of the circumstances. It’s always the poor wife, nothing else.
I feel that torah law has a strong bias in favor of the “poor husband”…
I’m pretty sure that if a woman cheats she loses her right to the monetary payoff of the Ketubah.
Check a Mishnayos or ask your LOR
She does but the words mean little as she can with hold visitation, demand money ect.
“Why divorce isn’t a conversation that is had before marriage.”
Because they don’t want to scare off the guys.
As the anonymous writer already stated: the woman can refuse to accept the get and in effect make the man an “agun” (if such a term describes anything). What that means in the real world is that she can also demand money from him, she can demand a more favorable custody setup AND get everyone’s sympathy while making all these demands.
Dude, grow a pair and stop expecting others to give you “support.” Then again, maybe this advice counts as support.
A Torah-True(TM) man supports himself, b’ezras Hashem, and should be ashamed to show his face in public were he to become the sort of worthless bum who shamelessly burdens others. (If you do need actual support, suck it up and feel ashamed until you pay it back or pay it forward someday.)
You need boxes of matza and cold cuts for shabbos meals when nobody invites you. You need incandescent clear-bulb battery-powered flashlights for shabbos licht. You need to channel your anger into self-improvement. Reading “Frumsatire” is a good first step toward coping through humor. Try Cracked.com too and South Park marathons. As December approaches, brace yourself and watch Bad Santa. I also recommend drinking more, but only with friends. In fact, you probably didn’t drink enough during your marriage.
I am self supporting. I work while I have custody. I manage my family and do not need hand outs Thank you VERY much. The support I would like is for people to actually reach out and be helpful. Social Services fight me tooth and nail due to misconception that the father is a worse primary care giver than the mother.
My anger is very controlled and when it does come up is managed with exercise not unhealthy brain drain or drinking.
My “pair” is fully present and while you may interpret support to equate with money, I value friendships and actual positive advice more than your mean spirited words.
in short STFU
I find drinking helps wonders during a heated discussion or tense moments, and so does my wife. The power of drink to promote shalom bayis is not to be underestimated.
Do you want sole custody of the children?
Most men don’t because they have neither the time, nor the nerves to care for their children.
The irony is that, in halacha, we learn just about everything re kiddushin FROM the halachos of giving a Get, retroactively.
Not to get all frum or anything.
Men need backbone. A man is under no halachic obligation to grant a divorce he does not wish to. More men need to exercise this legal right they posses.
you are scum. Withholding a get is not a halachic right.
The consequence of withholding a get will be either that women won’t marry any more or that they won’t care about gittin any more…
which, by the way, seems to be the case with the anonymous poster’s wife…
Giving a Get is not a default halachic obligation. A wife needs “cause” to be able to demand a Get that a husband does not wish to grant. A wife, under Jewish Law, is not entitled to a divorce just because she wants it.
Hello “anon” (author of this letter):
When you say the wife cheated do you mean literally with the full actual physical relations? If so, how do you know with confidence that it occurred? And why would you have tried to forgive such an ultimate sin? What happened to the male who sinned with her as a result of his partaking in that infidelity?
Also, I would tend to think that a Orthodox Jewish wife actually engaging in infidelity is a very rare occurrence. Are you insinuating otherwise, and if so on what basis do you make that allegation of any such widespread behavior among Orthodox ex-wives other than whatever occurred in a personal situation?
How was the cheating discovered? Does she acknowledge and admit she cheated? What triggered the divorce later if that was forgiven?
Thank you so much for posting this
Yup. Men are screwed in divorce. Which is why women initiate the vast majority of them these days. It is no longer a story of men trading up, but of women realizing they can have the kids, the house, and the income, without the hassle of making a marriage work with the man.
Outside of frum circles, it is entirely irrational for men to marry. Which is why, in increasing numbers, they don’t.
Feminists won every battle, but end up having lost the war. Thanks to feminism, modern men now get the milk for free, and avoid any long-term commitments.