Dear people of Boro Park – sent to me via email
I’ll admit, growing up in a modern orthodox community, I’ve always thought of myself as a better than you, mostly because I felt that you looked down upon me and my community. I would never have voiced this opinion though, because that would have made me look bad. Perhaps my dislike and on some levels, anger, towards you has to do with my own insecurities.
I went to a Bais Yaacov high school and always felt that there was some level of relgious distinction between me and most of the other girls, even though we all wore the same uniform and there was really no outward difference, but as in all cultures, its still pretty easy to catch someone who isn’t a ‘native’. But this summer I visited the kollel supermarket in your neighborhood. I was in a mixed crowd, and although the girls were dressed modestly and the guys wore kippas and tzitzis, we clearly stuck out. But the most incredible thing happened as we wandered up and down the aisles of your supermarket.
Nobody bothered us. No one stared, no one chided us for being a mixed crowd, no one gasped at the denim and colors that we wore. You essentially ignored us. And for that I must thank you, because you’ve taught me a valuable lesson.Because I know had I met any of you in my supermarket, I would have most definitely stared. I would’ve whispered about your sheitels and hat combination’s, at your shoes, at your brigade of children. And for this I am so terribly embarassed. I’m embarrassed that I haven’t treated you as I should, as my fellow Jews, as what you truly are beneath the style of dress you chose.
As a holy spark of the divine. As a neshama. I’m sorry. Without having met any of you, I’ve judged all of you, while none of you have judged me. It’s attitudes like mine that keep Jews from acting as the one united nation that we are meant to be. So next time on the street when you’re men avoid my gaze and my style of dress clashes with yours, I’ll smile, and remember that you had the decency to not judge me, and I will try to do the same for you.
Sincerely,
Your Fellow Jew
All Jews sicken me. Can someone kick them all off the Internet?
Thanks.
You are welcome to browse the billions of other non-Jewish webpages.
I’m glad someone voiced their opinion on this matter. Diologue may help unite us more as jews.
I remember as a kid i went to boro park with a knitted kipa and other kids made fun of me (as a kid i felt really bad)…then in israel in bnei brak i wore jeans and a tshirt and people started giggling and taking pictures.
The more i interact with “haredim” and from what i read about them on the news (israeli news) the more my dislike and even anger grows for them. I realize this is wrong its gotta change…i guess i gotta make an effort not to be so judgemental.
The Neturei Karta on the other hand are shitfucks, and i wouldnt hesitate to smash ones head in.
Why so angry today?
Eh. I’ve just been mad all year that certain frummies have been driving me nuts.
Sorry about that.
People can be annoying, but each person speaks or acts only on his or her behalf…
You too? I thought it was just me.
Well, it’s not your fault.
Though I’m convinced morality would be a lot simpler without religion. I think of the pros and cons of religion, and the pros column is getting smaller and smaller.
Someone’s pissed off. Without religion to guide morality, it is left up to mere humans to decide. Everyone thinks different and chaos would ensue. Just because you might think it’s immoral to do something, your neighbor might think its ok. Imagine that. I’m not here to chide you for not being religious – that would probably be counterproductive, but no way would “morality be simpler” without religion.
>without religion to guide morality it is left up to mere humans to decide
With religion, I assume all the big decisions are made by God himself. There are many problems with this theory: 1) how do you know the morality taught by your religion (as well as the religion itself) is the true one? Just like you probably believe Islam and Christianity are false and man-made, how do you know yours is not? 2)even according to most opinions within your religion, morality has evolved. People used to be given the death penalty, not anymore. We used to be commanded to wipe out nations, now I assume we’re allowed to let them live. So the rules written down in texts are not being followed literally anyway, our morality changes with the times, so how can you say your morality never changes?
*Sigh*
Its unfortunate how those who don’t like religion because of perceived inconsistencies, are the ones who lack logical arguments, and instead just vent frustration.
1. While I do believe Judaism to be the true religion, I was never forcing you to believe in it. I was merely arguing that there has to be some higher power to define morals. I personally do not think that Jewish morals are false – Its impossible for me to prove it to you – I just believe. Basically you are asking me to prove that Judaism is true (because I’m assuming if you believe the religion its true, then its associated morals are true as well) – unfortunately I personally am not qualified to preach religion – I can only argue based on logic.
2. No one is of the opinion that morals have changed. Times may have changed and what was once moral is still moral. You are correct that the death penalty is no longer in place – but not beacues it is immoral.
>if you believe a religion is true, then it’s asssociated morals are true as well
Aha. So the truth of the morals are dependent on the truth of the religion. The morals and the religion are like two peas in a pod. Now I understand why so many people have been killed in the name of religion. I mean, if my GOD gels me to kill someone, why on earth would I listen to mere MORTALS and myself, and not kill them? You can have that morality.
Anyway, you seem to think that without an outside power, we’d be unable to conceive of morality. Yet another unfounded assumption religious people often make. Give people a little more credit, will you? We’ve put people on the moon, life expectancy has practically doubled over the last century, and computer technology is unfthomable. Don’t you think humanity could come up with some basic human rules so we could all get along?
You don’t think the Constitution was handed down by God to Moses, I presume.
Few things bother me more than the “so many people have been killed in the name of religion” claim that anti-religionists make.
Think of all the major wars in the last century. WWI, which was the bloodiest war in history, was about nationalism & land, and had little to do with religion if at all. WWII, the holocaust, & the Rewandan Genocide had to do with science (ideas of darwinism & superior races), and nothing to do with religion. The vietnam war had to do with communism vs capitalsim – again, nothing to do with religion.
Furthermore, any conflicts in recent history that have been based on religion have been launched in the name of islam & christianity (man-made religions which contain significant & dangerous flaws) , but not judaism. Since biblical times when G-d actually commanded us to attack another people – no wars or genocides have been launched in the name of Judaism.
So please, dont blame us for the world’s problems. We’ve seen from the conflicts of the 20th century that the world would be just as dangerous and war-ravaged without the help of religion.
If you want to see what happens when people dispense with religion, (specifically the guide for human living that the Torah brings), you don’t need to look very far.
The 1000-Year “Third Reich of germany” dispensed with religion and worshipped ‘barbarism’ i.e. the law of the jungle. We all know what happened there.
Communist Russia and China also got rid of religion, then massacred their artists and intellectuals, and created soul-dead oppressive societies, full of uneducated farm labourers.
Most decent, freedom-loving Western democracies are founded on the laws Moshe Rabeinu brought at Sinai, B”H. These wonderful countries even encourage you to express your contempt of religion, because of the ethic of free speech, and the fundamental morality that is Judaism. Baruch HaShem!!!
In Hebrew there is no word for religion; there is THE WAY. To have an intimate and loving relationship with your G-d is a beautiful thing; to have good guidelines for life is too, though maybe the word ‘religion’ doesn’t do justice to these precious things. Shalom
OTD,
Religion defined the guidlines of morality. Before that it was all “dog eat dog”.
BTW, hating your own is immoral.
Phil,
I’ve found that you seek to ‘stir the pot’ more often than you try to understand different points of view.
I’m ready to ‘jump off’ frumkeit, too – will you now say something that will further make me want to take the plunge?
OTD makes an honest point. I feel that he’s sometimes too bitter (this is why I deleted him from FB), but his bitterness is genuine and VALID. Dismissing it as ‘immoral’ only reinforces the misgivings that OTD, yours truly, and so many others have about willfully blind frummies…
…And yes, Phil, you are blinding yourself here – as you do far too often – to a contrary viewpoint.
– Tova Schreiber, daughter of the Grand Rebbe of Bozo
So it’s OK for OTD and the KKK to want all Jews off the internet and our religion destroyed or thrown out the window, but it’s wrong for me to critcize that view?
What have you been smoking?
Phil, why don’t you grow a pair and actually address my argument instead of making it for me?
If you’re going to play the “pointless questions” game, here’s one for you: Does it hurt when your wife puts her hand up your ass?
What argument? All I saw was a bunch of incoherrent sentences from you that didn’t make much sense (as usual). Regardless, I take a shot at replying to your issues:
1) If you are ready to jump off frumkeit, my advice is to figure out why you want to do so. Once you’ve done that, if you feel guilty or are unsure about your decision, speak to a KNOWLEDGEABLE rabbi or mentor that you can be open with and trust. Ultimately, know one is forcing you to do anything, as you have freedom of choice.
2) I only responded to OTD’s ridiculous claim that morality would be a lot simpler without religion. I stand by my belief that religion defined morality. Furthermore, much of today’s morality is immoral. We can go back and forth about this like little (or big) babies, arguing on whose morality is superior. The nazis thought they were moral when they attempted to wipe us out, they believed they were ridding the world of a disease. The Zionist govt in Israel thinks that they are moral when they imprison, feed, educate and medicate captured terrorrists at Jewish taxpayers expense, when in fact, they should be shooting them on site and taking no prisoners.
3) As far as your silly insults, I won’t bother replying as I have some self respect.
1. I am told regularly that I am articulate and write well. Do not confuse poor reading comprehension on your part with “incoherrent” expression on my part.
2. I didn’t insult you; I verbally defended myself (and OTD) from baseless accusations that I was a drug user (and that he should be lumped in together with the Ku Klux Klan.)
3. Thank you for, once again, making my argument for me. It’s saved me considerable time and effort.
*I* want Jews off the internet?! The greatest rabbis want all Jews off the Internet! 😀
Ahahahahaha
Ooh, sounds like Phil is walking on eggshells here:D.
Phil: have you ever seen a dog eat another dog? Didn’t think so. Newsflash: humans hardly ever ate other humans, especially not other live ones. How could the Torah have taught us to not kill if killing was considered immoral thousands of years BEFORE Sinai (S’dom etc). Without your holy books, you wouldn’t know how to poop either, I presume.
It irks me how often people claim their religion is what taught is morality. It’s an EXTREMELY weak claim, and each religion takes credit for the same thing, too. Maybe it’s one of those myths like the earth is flat, or the Earth was created in six days.
OTD,
It was an expression. If you accept to use the Torah as a historical reference, the world before the flood was totaly immoral, murder, theft, incest, bestiality and wife swapping were al part of normal everyday life.
After the flood, you had aplace like sodom, where the going custom was to sodomize and kill visitors / travellers. Doesn’t sound like Holiday Inn.
Yissmael, the father of all arabs, was a hihgway robber, Esav, father of the modern day mafia was a killer.
Etc., Etc.
As far as the clowns that claim that the earth is 5 billion years old, then add “give or take a billion”, I would love to see you try something like that on your IRS return.
The theory of carbon dating back that far in time has been scientificly disproven, as they based their starting point on pre-existing data. If God created a rock that looked 1 billion years old, does that mean it was atually 1 billion years old?
> The theory of carbon dating back that far in time has been scientificly disproven, as they based their starting point on pre-existing data. If God created a rock that looked 1 billion years old, does that mean it was atually 1 billion years old?
Um, no. Science assumes that empirical evidence is valid. To say that the possibility that empirical evidence is unreliable is “scientifically disproving” something is nonsensical. Its true that carbon dating doesn’t work beyond about 40,000 years, but no one claimed that it did.
Do you believe that you’re older than five minutes? Why? Couldn’t God have created you and everything else five minutes ago, with a history and memories that makes you think you’re older? But why would He do that? And why would He create a 6000 year old rock that looks like it’s a billion years old?
“And why would He create a 6000 year old rock that looks like it’s a billion years old”
Ummmm. Because who would want to live in a world where everything is just starting to grow?
And besides, there are many other theories that align the scientific belief that the world is billions of years old with the bible. Like saying that each “day” of creation was actually millions/billions of years.
Nothing in science can be considered an absolute truth. Real absolute truth, by definition, dictates that something is true for all eternity. Science is constantly evolving. What was thought to be true decades ago has been disproved (if you know any basic science, there is no need for me to name specifics) and so similarly, what is thought to be true today can only be viewed as transient truth.
Yeah, I know!
Your religion is real, absolute truth.
*Sigh*
Wow, you’re very perceptive. Exactly – only religion can be absolute truth. But for some reason, you seem to be sarcastic… Again, don’t just fling emotions at me, you gotta do better than that to be taken seriously.
>only religion can be absolute truth
I understand. Looking around, I see millions of mutually exclusive belief systems all claiming to be the “absolute truth.” You can’t *all* be right…
OTD,
No, but as frum Jews we believe that Jews need to follow Torah and non Jews need to follow the Noachide laws. If you believe you were born and are Jewish for a reason, then you should adhere to our beliefs.
If you don’t believe in the existence of God, and feel the Torah is a bunch of nonsense, what defines you being a Jew? Why should you even care?
To rephrase so avoid I being misquted, Why would you bother frequenting a site where frum Jews congregate if you don’t believe we even exist as such?
Phil, I hang around frum people because I grew up with them, genius.
Why did you think I do? Because I secretly believe their religion is True? Of course!!
It’s one thing to hang around with childhood friends, it’s another to visit frum based blogs. You obviously still feel some sort of connection to Judaism despite the negativity and hatred you portray towards belief in God and the Torah. How many muslim, hindu, bhuddist or atheist blogs do you visit on a regular basis?
Phil: I feel very little connection to Judaism. I feel a lot of connection to Jews though. I think that makes me no different than most frum people.
god why don’t you guys get a room
> Ummmm. Because who would want to live in a world where everything is just starting to grow?
Firstly, rocks don’t really “grow.” But I assume you mean more things like trees. If so, then 1) trees only take a few years to grow, and 2) we date trees by their growth rings. If God put trees in place fully grown for Adam and Chava, they should be fully-grown trees without any growth rings. If the tree has rings, then either it really is as old as it looks, or God is trying to trick us. Why is he trying to trick us? The same principle holds for any other naturalistic indicator of age.
Also, you completely ignored the point that once you say the world was created old, you can’t know that the world wasn’t created a moment ago.
> Nothing in science can be considered an absolute truth.
This begs the question: How do you know that there is such a thing as “absolute truth?”
> Science is constantly evolving. What was thought to be true decades ago has been disproved (if you know any basic science, there is no need for me to name specifics) and so similarly, what is thought to be true today can only be viewed as transient truth.
Science makes no claims to absolute truth. Science is an investigation into what is, and current scientific theories are our best estimate, based on the data we have, of how things work. A scientific theory isn’t “true” the way a religious precept is held to be true. This is a strength. It allows scientific theories to be corrected over time, whereas the absolute truths of religion must remain static or lose their status as absolute truths. This ultimately devolves into an argument from authority, where the fundamentalist will insist that the sky appears green because his religious authorities/texts say so, despite the evidence of his own eyes.
G3,
The fact that scienctist are constantly changing their minds about how they interpret the facts that God created isn’t a sign of strength. Rather, it’s proof that they are confused and even incompetent at times.
Many scientists agree with the idea of a higher power, as the more you get into science, the more you realized how absurd it would be to actually think our existence, from the tiniest molecule to the most distant stars and galaxies and came about by accident from a “big bang”.
Ditto for Darwin’s theory of evolution. Though we may be justified in calling him a donkey, I’m quite sure I didn’t descend from apes.
“The fact that scienctist are constantly changing their minds about how they interpret the facts that God created isn’t a sign of strength. Rather, it’s proof that they are confused and even incompetent at times.”
I don’t think that any “scienctist” thinks he is interpreting the facts that God created. Actually, the fact that science is constantly evolving and searching for truth is a strength. For you to say that men owning up to their past mistakes are incompetent is laughable.
Einstein didn’t create the theory of relativity he merely discovered it, much like Colombus (arguably) discovered America. Same goes for the Human genome, and other recent discoveries.
Most of these scientist never “owned up” to their mistakes, rather, they were proven wrong, which definitely makes them mistaken at the best, incompetent at the worst.
With all of science’s evolution, they are still unable do create life (from scratch) or avoid death, even in “simple” living organisms.
“With all of science’s evolution, they are still unable do create life (from scratch) or avoid death, even in “simple” living organisms.”
And your point, therefore, is…?
…That science is worthless?
…That scientists are not allowed to be human?
…That studying science is a waste of time?
Not at all, science is extremely important, it actually re-inforces the proof of God’s greatness. Of course scientist will make mistakes, you can’t expect a human mind to even begin to comprehend God. Studying science is important, modern medicine will attest to that.
My point is very simple. When a scientist comes along and attempts to discredit facts stated in the Torah, they are simply making a fool of themselves.
I’m not allowed to reply to your post, so I will “reply” to my own.
“When a scientist comes along and attempts to discredit facts stated in the Torah, they are simply making a fool of themselves.”
Who’s trying to do this? There are things that scientists have discovered that are either unmentioned in TaNaCh/TSBP or contrary to what it says in TaNaCh/TSBP. Is this wrong?
Lice and fleas don’t come from dust, and I don’t care how many Rishonim said so.
In Torah, the sun was created on the Fourth Day. So there is absolutely no way to speculate how long the first three days were. On Wednesday it became a 24 hour day.
Everything in Torah actually adds up, when you study it with an open-mind.
Also, the Torah needs to be studied on all four levels; literal. allegorical, narrative, and deeper meaning (kabbala). There’s so much wisdom there, but one needs to learn how to learn. Shalom.
First of all, I don’t think there’s a single scientist who believes in a young earth.
Regarding morality, the Torah does not say killing was widespread in those other cultures. If they did kill each other out, how long do you think the culture would last? I don’t remember anywhere in the Torah where it says Society A loved killing each other out. Rather, it was very political. Nation A killed out Nation B, etc. Very little hurting their own. Nothing unusual there.
OTD,
Re: your comment 28, most frum people feel a strong connection to Judaism, otherwise they wouldn’t base their entire lives around it. When you add up the amount of time, effort and money that your average frum person or family dedicate to observing religion, you’ll realize just how connected we actually are.
I feel sorry for you that you’ve lost that feeling. I’m sure you have your reasons and events that led you to choose to do so. Keeping in touch with frum people is positive, who knows, maybe we’ll rub off on you for the better.
I disagree. Most people raised Jewish stay Jewish. Same with Christians, Moslems, etc. I would argue that it has less to do with an individual’s connection to their religion, more to do with social and cultural connections.
I like you a lot, Phil, but you’re naive like a little baby.
Sorry, OTD – I couldn’t resist. I felt you were deserving of some defense on my part. 🙂
Phil is right, religion defines morality. However, it seems as if OTD is having an emotional problem with religion, not an intellectual one. We can argue with him (and others like him) all we want, we won’t convince them. Some frum person was mean to him and that is causing this bad association with religion.
OTD, please don’t judge a whole religion based on a few nasty people. If you’ve had or are having bad experiences with frum people just know that they are not following the laws of the Torah.
And to all the frumies out there: the main point of the Torah is to be nice to others and love them as yourself. If your doing that consider yourself frum, if not, then all your learning and all your davening didn’t teach you anything.
FM,
With all due respect (and I have little of that for you): Stop imposing and get a good shtup – that’s what you need.
You further proved the point that OTD and I were arguing.
You’re just like the nasty frummie who wrote me hate mail Erev Rosh HaShana: Smug and self-blinded.
The post presents an unusual point of view. Its not often you hear people talk about NOT getting stared at in Boro Park.
OTD, I think you’ve got to broaden your target group. Personally, I hate all people equally.
i thought the post was sarcastic. another hit for hesh, as he’s done that a few times already; posting satire that ended up being taken seriously
I love how FM says ‘we’, as though everyone reading her (?) comment is in agreement, as though Jews are a monlithic entity.
I wrote this in order to explain how I see that I was wrong in my rash judgment of others. I am deeply saddened by the fact that this has simply brought out more resentment between people.
A basic tenant of Judaism is to treat others as you expect to be treated. This experience has reminded me of that. I don’t see what makes this appear to be sarcasticl.
“I don’t see what makes this appear to be sarcasticl.”
Oh, I don’t know – maybe the fact that this was posted on a site titled FRUM SATIRE?
“It ain’t always Frum, and it ain’t always Satire.”
Read the tagline
Yes, and that’s been the tagline since the blog began. Right.
Please – this is a comedy site.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, I can see.
>I am deeply saddened by the fact…
I’m sure you are.
Also, Judaism may have tenets, but I don’t think it has tenants.
Your post merely shed light on some of the horrible animosity and division within the Orthodox community, which is just one more thing that turns so many of us off from it.
“Vot are you talkink about, Efraim?”
“Hanh?”
“Die Yiddishe velt – it’s got tenants, I’m tellink you!”
“Vot?”
“The koylel houses…”
You can believe in Judaism as a religion and not in the animosity and ridiculousness that certain sects have turned it into.
I for one, believe without a doubt in Judaism. I just have to find out what the proper path is.
>You can believe in Judaism as a religion
Why, I have millions of religions to choose from! Fortunately, I’m a freethinker, and I don’t believe in any of these man-made myths.
Hey, now. So people who choose religion aren’t freethinkers? We aren’t making a choice with our free minds?
OTD, I’m wish FarFrumIt, I believe in Judaism but I don’t believe in “the animosity and ridiculousness that certain sects have turned it into.”
FM: Reread what I wrote to Phil. I see no reason to assume religion taught us morality. Just because the Judeo-Christian world takes it for a given does not mean it’s true.
How can something be “moral” if there is no higher power dictating its definition? No 2 people think alike. Different eras and countries have different morals.
I never said morals are unchanging.
A lot of things are taken as a given? Does that mean they’re true?
The Judeo-Christian world also “assumed” the Earth was young. Over the last few hundred years, even most of the sophisticated theologians concede the earth is billions of years old. Too late to unkill all those “heretics” I suppose.
What you are saying is not entirely true. The first instance of a 6,000 year old earth came from a Bishop James Ussher who came up with the conclusion himself by adding the genealogies of Biblical figures together. However, to say that any “heretics” were killed because they believed the earth was old is an outright false hood. In fact, there is a video on Youtube done by a philosopher (Protestant) who debunks the myth that Darwin Killed G-d- search Did Darwin Kill G-d?-.
As for the term “freethinker,” you should drop it, because the only ones who tend to use that term are those who are actually warped in their own worldview and tend to be less open-minded. The academia has no time for such silly terminology. Smart people tend to hold onto their beliefs-even falsehoods- because they can defend their position brilliantly.
*Crickets*
Thanks for the backup.
Uh Tova i have just seen ur blog for the first time … looks (and sounds) like you are the one that needs a good shtup not FM
Your point being…?
And thanks for the offer, but I like men.
Tova,
Just for you;
Mark Twain (great guy, I personally think one of the smartest men ever ever (and I don’t say that lightly).
“Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. “
Great quote, CJ!
Twain’s one of my favorites when it comes to sheer brilliance and witty sayings like that.
OTD – Can’t have your cake and eat it too brother. If you are OFF, then you are OFF. Turn it off and enjoy life instead of trying to convince everyone why you are OFF and why logically you are correct.
You might actually enjoy life instead of the bitterness portrayed in your writing.
Keep on Ramblin’.
Hold on. Am I supposed to ramble, or go away?
Ramble brother, keep on ramblin’. But lose the bitterness……
I always wonder about people who claim ‘secular’ morality is superior to ‘religious’ morality. Just looking at the tens, possibly hundreds, of millions who were murdered in the 20th century due to secular wars, genocides, and revolutions makes you realize that ‘human morality’ isn’t all that great.
I just didn’t realize that secularists had become so evangelical about their beliefs. The last time I walked into a conversation with an athiest, they spent over an hour trying to convert me to athiesm. It wasn’t too different from my Christian friends trying to convert me to loving Jesus.
OTD, “You can’t *all* be right…” Eilu v’eilu
Phil, Even if you argue that there MUST be a creator of some sort, it is still a big leap from there to all of the nonsense that Frum Jews believe. The flood, giving a book at sinai to a select few. Ordering the murder of an entire nation, cant be gay, cant sew linen and wool together, sacrificing animals on an alter, some dude will come as the messiah and we will all one day live in Israel….I mean c’mon. Big Leap.
Bankman,
If we can prove the Torah is God given, then we can establish that Jews are meant to observe it’s laws which are obviously divine.
Here is the simplest proof:
In the section of the Torah that describes kosher animals. the Torah enumerates only 4 psecies as having only one of the 2 signs identifying kosher mammals, namely cud chewing and split hooves: The camel, hyrax, rabbit and pig.
Since the Torah has been given, not 1 more specie has been found on earth containing only one of these signs.
Either Moses was the surpreme scientist that spend his time researching every animal on every continent (clearly impossible), or the creator of all creatures simply jotted down this seemingly insignificant fact into the Torah.
The same author, claims to have led us out of Egypt, given us the commandments and given us eternal right to the land of Israel.
If you want to get into other proofs such as gematria and Torah codes, there are plenty or web articles and books on the topic.
Another logical proof would be the clear distinction that our Torah was claimed to have been given to over 600,000 adult men at once, in contrast to mohammed who “had a dream” or j.c that “had a revelation”. Do you think that anyone at that given moment could have invented an event or illusion of that size?
What about the women?
Women, children and senior citizens were all there in addition to the 600,000.
Says who?
How can a woman trust a bunch of patriarchs claiming that “they were there”, so everyone else must follow the rules?
The Torah obviously never heard of the warthog, babieussa, the peccaries and the llamas. Oops!
Also, the Torah was wrong about the rabbit and the hyrax. They *were* believed to chew their cud, but modern zoology has categorically disproven that. Oops again.
See here for more. Oh, google is your friend!
Also, there are plenty of answers to the Kuzari proof as well. Again, google can come in handy, or I’ll be happy to supply links.
It’s disrespectful to demand that we seek “answers” while those on the other side are expected to hide from the questions. Fair is fair. If you’re going to demand that people go out of their comfort zones and challenge themselves theologically, you better be willing to do the same, Mr. kiruv genius.
Sorry, I screwed up the link.
www. talkreason.org/articles/letter1.cfm#outreach
OTD,
Fascinating. I always assumed the llama was kosher. Yeah, the warthog and babirusa are species of hogs, the llama might be a subspecies of camel, and the hyrax isn’t classed as a ruminating animal anyomre, it’s classed as cecotrophy or merycism instead.
Still, it does seem to shatter that “proof”, and I will bring it up to the rabbi that mentioned it to me next time I speak to him.
PS,
The Torah didn’t bring these four animals down as a proof that it was given by God, nor did it ever say that they were the only 4 species to have 1 sign. My best guess is that it enumerated the species popular in that region, as stated by Rabbi Silfkin.
Using it as a proof was obviously (and erronously) thought up by some rabbi at some point in time. Thanks for pointing it out.
Hey y’all.
regarding religion and science, Albert Eisntein (a nice jewish boy who was not religious mind you) said the following: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Religion has to coexist with science and vice versa. In the end, no matter how small an object (protons, nuetrons, gene mapping, etc…)that scientists discover, there is always something smaller, or something that created that object.
Further on religion:
(Sorry but I’m in a quotable mood today):
D.H. Lawrence once said “It is a fine thing to establish one’s own religion in one’s heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing.”
Steven Weinberg (also jewish) said “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
And last for now, is this quote “Faith is about doing. You are how you act, not just how you believe.”
My nature is to be accepting of all. I don’t care if anyone is Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.. or atheist. If you can’t act with morals in your daily life, it doesn’t make a difference what you call god, or how many times you pray.
OTD:
Just for the record, Voltaire (famous french guy, from the Enlightenment period, he was one of those individuals who the founding fathers of the U.S.A. used to base there rebellion and Constitution, you know “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”). I would say he was an all around smart guy who didn’t care about Judaism, said ” All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God.”
for OTD and PHIL:
Regarding your little snipping and that its a “dog eat dog” world:
Of all the creatures that were made, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood he is the only one–the solitary one–that possesses malice. That is the basest of all instincts, passions, vices–the most hateful. He is the only creature that has pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. Also–in all the list he is the only creature that has a nasty mind.
Ummm, probably because humans are the only species that has a forebrain bigger than a pea. As any scientist can tell you, we have the most cognitively advanced brain of any other evolutionary species. Limbic system (hippocampus, entorhinal cortex, blah blah blah). Basal ganglia circuits – striatum, substantia nigra, blah blah). To quote spiderman, “with great power comes great responsibility.” We are the most advanced and have the greatest capacity to do good but we can also use what G-d gave us to descend into…
Sorry people. This thread has descended into an argument about religion if its true or not (sorry Mr. Frum satire for taking part pf this hijacking). I had originally assumed that the people commenting here believed in Judaism – just not what it has become. That not being the case, I am definitely not qualified to have a debate on the truth of Judaism. I have met people and visited sites and places that can (aish and aish.com for one) and that sufficed for me. If you are interested in answers and not just in the questions, I suggest you spend a little time and energy to visit those places. I am a scientist (doctorate) not a religious debater.
Good original post by the way Mr. Satire.
beutiful
Phil, I am glad you bought the propaganda hook, line and sinker and I wish you well on your journey.
“there are plenty or web articles and books on the topic.” This is true of ANY topic, including topics which debunk the few “proofs” you brought up here.
Phil, God created you with a brain and freewill, i urge you to use those tools.
Bankman,
Since you’re such a genius, here’s something to challenge your supreme wisdom:
I would love to see you or anyone debunk 1 kosher sign in 4 animals proof. How’s about you and all your wise ass scientist buddies find me a 5th animal with one sign?
The TaNaCh doesn’t mention turkeys as being kosher. Does that mean turkeys don’t exist, by your logic?
Tova,
Read Rashi. Torah only specifies non kosher birds that are forbidden. Funny that you mention turkeys though, the Shelah outlawed his descendants from eating turkey, one of my neighbors is one of them.
You didn’t get my point.
I’m truly beginning to think that Phil simply does not know what to do upon encountering a differing opinion.
I sure do. I’ll dissect it and attempt to prove that I’m right. My cousin’s exactly the same, when we get together we can go at it for hours, usually fuelled by some good booze.
Phil, I would prefer not to get into this discussion now, but would urge you to study some of the arguemnets on the other side. If you would like, I can provide you with links.
Phil, answer this theoretical question for me. If someone showed you one of these animals, would you stop being frum? stop believing?
Bankman,
I never asked for a discourse, simply a name of one animal apart from the 4 mentioned. When you find it, I’ll have some serious questions for a very learned rabbi that showed pointed it out to me.
Of course, you and I know that isn’t going to happen, as it’s been 3000+ years a no one’s found one yet. Feel free to spend the rest of your life trying.
“Of course, you and I know that isn’t going to happen, as it’s been 3000+ years a no one’s found one yet. Feel free to spend the rest of your life trying.”
Great way to avoid the argument, Phil.
“What if Jesus isn’t the Son of God?”
“Well, he just is. So let’s not worry about it!”
Last I checked, bankman was the one trying to avoid naming the 5th one by asking a theoretical question instead, which I did reply in the first paragraph.
Re: your comment #37, if you have serious questions, go to someone more knowledgeable and learned than I. Contrary to popular belief, a few such people do exist.
Why would I want to do that? Such people are the ones who discouraged my questions in the first place.
If they discouraged your questions they weren’t very knowledgeable. Even a simpleton knows that would drive someone in the other direction. You need to find someone that has the knowledge, time and patience to answer your questions (assuming you want answers). Your best bet is a local Chabad or outreach rabbi who’s ego won’t be to big to tell you “I don’t know”.
Do none of you people have jobs? How can you all have this much time to leave comments? There’s 92 comments from 4 or five different people.
If people want to fight that badly, hesh should start a chat room.
I work online, some I’m on the net all day. He does have a forum too…
I don’t work Friday afternoons. Except now I have to go clean the house for Shabbos. Toodles.
Oh yeah, Shabbos…. Got to run. Have a good one, don’t take my degrading comments too personally 😉
Phil, in those 4 categories that you suggest (camel, hyrax, rabbit and pig), how many species are included in each on of those categories?
IF you accept that this on particular thing is evidence that God wrote the Torah, would you also accept the other, seemingly physically impossible things, mentioned in the torah as proof that he did not? Or so many of the contradictory issues that so many bible critics have pointed out and struggled over for hundreds of years?
I don’t need evidence, it’s part of belief. Just because Europeans didn’t have evidence that America existed 600 years ago, doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. It’s called emunah.
We were given freedom of choice, as well as thousands of distractions to “prove” otherwise. There were those that even tried to kill us off and squash our belief in God. They haven’t succeeded, we’re still here.
Whats up with the picture of the FBI??
107 comments from 8 people. Nice.
Aside from the tangent that the comments went off on, its a good post.
Phil-, sorry i missed this great arguement- OTD is a fool and i got your back on this…
the spelling probably will be horrible like always- so sorry upfront- but i am not going to spell check it…
Off the derech-
firstly I must say you are the product of the anti religoius pablum taught a colleges around the world, using the same old arguements that are sooo stretched out so thin they are easily penetrated.
Morality- you speak of morality as if it is something that you can have with out structure, as if you can be moral with out some form of religion. all religion is a structured belief of authority and accountability, for men and creation. then even governments are a religion or vice versa religion is a form of government. either way you cannot have morality with out governing rule.
man is not intristically moral. he was taught morality through the practice of religion.(Torah) everything you would concider MORAL today is a directly from the Torah. in ancient cultures killing was not immoral as it is today, stealing was not immoral, pretty much everything we think of as “evil” was not held to such degree. all these things changed in the modern context because mainly almost everyone in the world is christian muslim jewish or influenced by said ideals. atheists today still would agree that murder is wrong- why? if we are animals why is it wrong to murder or rape? We are animals right? cant i break into your house and beat you to death , rape your wife and steal your plasma TV? I mean if i am nothing more than an animal with no purpose- and just here by anomolly then no one can tell me that is wrong…
see that is what happened with Jeff Dahmer, he did not believe in G-d so he felt like there was no reason why he couldn’t do the things he did. And the logic makes sense too, because when an animal wants to kill he does. when an animal wants for screw he does. when an animal wants to steal he does. This is a world without religion, without checks and balances, wiith out morality. But why then is it wrong to do these things in atheist minds still to this enlightened day?? i mean survival of the fittest right? it is still worng because an atheist is still sub-consiously influenced by the moral practices of the greater populus, with have been forged directly from the Torah- in Judasim then Christianity then Europe then and finally now America.
this is not a founded christian nation as it was founded by mainly deists, but most assuredly in that day most people were christians and even the founding fathers who were not christians most of them none the less took there moral beliefs form the religion of there fathers, and of the society. you talk about morality as if it can exist without a governing belief system, it cannot. what do you get without it?
HITLER 12,000,000
STALIN 50,000,000
MAO 20,000,000
these men killed in the name of anti religion, they were “forward thiinkers”. because that is man in its truest form. that is a man consumed by his desires without some sort of moral compass which is only taught through religion, (governing system) you might think you are moral without religion or can be moral without religion, but that is just an allusion, ignorance. you believe what you beleive about morality only because the society you live in is directly influenced by a moral code namely the Torah. alll morality comes from Religion .period.
you can dance around the laws about kashrus but i know your game, using slight of hand. see, you think and say kashrus is stupid, outdated archaic. but only because we are in a society that dictates such. you think kashrus is silly but think about eating pig testicles, or brains.- these things are gross to you even now as you think of eating them, why? because the society that you are in dictates that these things are “gross or “nasty”. it is all reletive, you think the way you do because of popular opinion nothing more, if you had grown up eating these things and our society embraced them as common they would be. so Jews eating kashrus is no more different or wierd then the other social food bans accepted in mainstream society. the logic is flawed. Again, believe what you believe because that is the opinion of the populus or of the people you hold dear.
G-d –
Science absolutly PROVES there is a G-d. Period. why do scientist go out of there way to prove there is not one? because like all of us, they do not want to be held accountable for their actions. Plus, scientists are EGO MANIACS! they want the idea that they are the creators and they are the supreme beings in the world. have you ever heard a lecture by one of these forgoing atheisic scientist? like Hitchens or Dawkins, have you ever read Nietzche? these guys are are total narcissists. how can we actually prove the existence of G-d?
firstly thermodynamics and the laws there to. Energy cannot be created or destroyed- which is why Einstien believed in somesort of afterlife- our electric energy (Neshamah Soul Chi Whatever) has to transfer to another plane of existence. energy cannot be created , at all (this is a LAW of science not a theory) So then from whence did we then come? People say big bang- a super nova exploded and then presto- a universe. but what created the supernova if nothing can be created? another supernova? and what formed that one? another? see aventually you have to get to an absolute zero, no energy. Machts Nachts. Nada. Nothing. And absolute zero cannot be acheived in our universe- 3rd law of thermodynamics states that. something has to be outside our governing laws that can manipulate/ change matter and time space in order to create. only a creator can create. we are not here by anomolly.
Also the theory of evolution is extremely flawed, not adaptation per say but total evolution, definatly. number one reason evolution cannot exist in the context of how we think is the fossil data does not support the failed attempts to evovle. 99.9 percent of all genetic mutation is negitive, just ask somone born with three arms or someone with down syndrome. so if 99 % of genetic mutation is negitive then the .01% is the anomolly, right? NU. but thats just it- the scientist wants you to belive that given enough time, we have evovled from a single cell to what we are now. think of it in the famous analogy 10 or so monkeys typing on typewriters and randomly typing the entire play Hamlet 100 times each. that is incredible. and impossible. but think of the failed copies, it would fill the earth with random incoherent papers filled with letters. to evolve the human brain by happenstance the chances are better for you to win the lottery 100 times in a row. which is why scientists keep pushing the age of the earth back farther and farther. they need more time to do it all , because the odds are incredible.
But in our very own rocks, where are the billions and billions of failed attmpts to evolve? where is the fossil data to support this? nowhere. nowhere indeed. there is no fossil data to support any of this. but scientists have you convinced on a loose fitting theory, based on the ramblings of a guy 100 years ago that thought the single cell was so primitive that life- sparking from no life would not be such a big jump. but what we know about the intense complexities of the single cell, really would baffle the mind. it is impossible for life to come from no life.
science just make a lot of the stuff up, i always say science is 90% speculation and 10% fact. fact- they recreated lucy (the infamous supposed MISSING LINK) out of a skeleton that could fit inside a ziploc bag. there is no actual way to tell if the skeleton was actually a missing link or just a deformed human. take the skeleton of the elephant man bury it let it decay for a long time and i gaurantee some dope would digg it up and swear that they found the missing link. Fact. they are now drawing dinosaurs with feathers, and are getting away from the idea that they were big lizards like they thought in the 18- 1900’s. they have no actual proof of any of the facts about dinosaurs they specualte it all- hunting patterns, eyesight, colors, texture, eating habits. they have no f*ing clue but no ego maniac scientist will tell you that they just make this stuff up. its speculation.
so is evolution. there is more proof that there is a G-d then that there is not one, but almighty darwin finally let everyone say – screw religion screw personal responiblity, i a can now do what i want. and that is what everyone right to do what they want, no accountability right? isn’t that more appealing? doesn’t it answer so many questions on why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people? that there is no plan? its all random happenstance. easy right? but just because that seems the easy way out and like that makes sense.
it doesn’t. G-d is there, this world is a smooth running machine that has a purpose. why we if we are a few degrees closer or farther from the sun this world could not sustain life, that compounded with ALL the other incredible coincendenses put together, no way man. work out the odds, it doesn’t add up.
to surmise- no energy source can be created or destroyed, so life cannot come from no life.even if it could- the span from muck and goop to a single cell is like a human jumping the atlantic ocean. even if we humans could jump thousands of miles the mutation process is almost always negitive so our earth would be stacked to the moon with the fossils of the mutations that failed. so no matter how you slice it the theory that is taught in schools as if it is real is all speculation because some mishugie kohp naturalist saw a igauna that could swim on an island.
its long and maybe too late but hope this helps the arguement I would LOVE responses so any of you psuedo darwinist morons out there !!PLEASE!! step up to the bat…
Wow – I did not expect this
Holy crap!
Yeah Heshy, What happened to the satire?
You DO know how to get people talking though. Maybe YOU should work as a Frum shidduch lol!
FrumGer: you lose the argument in the first sentence, where you call me names. Name-calling is inexcusable, especially when you don’t know your opponent personally. Nevertheless, I may be willing to have this discussion with you.
There are a number of major topics you raise. Morality is one. Science, including extremely complex disciplines such as physics, biology, archaeololgy is the other. I imagine we’re both amateurs anddon’t have advanced degrees in science (at least I don’t). I should point out that there are some very sophisticated frum scientists who believe in evolution and the big bang and other theories you laugh at. Can you explain why that is?
Anyway, I’d like to ask you this: if let’s say, in theory, I could prove to you that evolution is most likely true, your religion is most likely not true, and there is no scientific need for religion, what would you do?
Perhaps the fool comment could be left out… mostly that is not directed to you specifically (though it is) but directed to all everyone that buys into this drek- its foolishness. i don’t know if you know what i mean by that- you are a part of the problem and the problem is foolishness, but in the same token i am not trying to slur you specifically mostly your aguement and what you beleive. for what its worth sorry for singleing you out insead of attacking the collective arguement.
on to your reply,
firstly No of course i am not a scientist, but i read enough and have been to enough lectures and debates for to know what i am talking about.
on to your what if scenario..
as you can see in my screen name the term ger… implying i was not always a yid. i was adopted in my mid teens by a jewish family and have only been yiddish 10 years and frum for 5 or so years. (whatever that means)
before that i was an intent searcher, since i was young the idea of truth has compulsed me. i have studied in depth every major religion on earth, science including physics, Poly Sci. , anthropology and archaeology.. now them well enough to present a strong case.. i have been exposed to science, phylosophy and logic i am not a cookie cut out frum yid. Nore do i buy into bullshit because some one once said. i look at facts and have come to my faith, because of these things. i understand the coallition of the two to come to my decision.
i invite you to say what you want use your best arguement, i live to debate. please feel free. i neither came across this decision through whim or overnight- my decision to become frum was an tremendous journey through books study – and not just through gemorrah actually mainly not through gemorrah, i came to my decision because of science. when i was 16 like you i used the same arguements you might use on evlolution.
i know many yids that believe in evloution- i am not a misnaged of evolution if it coallates to berishis. mineral vegitable animal human- sure i see the similarities… but still our earth does not hold the fossil data for it to have happened the way scientists wish you to beleive it. the failed attempts to evolve each species had to have in order evolve its just not there.
i am almost begging you to put together your best agruement and come back at me, please i wish to hear it- i need to hear it- i would love to hear it. but i must warn you bring your A game because darwin quotes and “what about the Hare or the Turkey” isn’t going to get it done.
OTD, dont waste your time with this guy, he is completely brainwashed.
FrumGer: I’m willing to have this discussion with you. You have to promise to attack arguments, not people. That’s then one rule I have.
I see. You have no background in science, but have read “a lot of books” and have been “exposed” to science. Okay, a regular ignoramus like the rest of us. Not like the Garnel dude who’s an MD who picks on high school students, because he knows even science undergrads can eat him alive when it comes to science.
One question before we start: do you believe in evolution or not? Also, how old do you believe is the age of the universe?
No i’m no scientist and glad for it- i love how people put such stock in colleges like college makes you smart or an DR. in front of your name makes you smart. it is neither, it is knowledge retention that makes you smart. i went to college and dropped out after two years to work, also i am not going to pay thousands to hear someone elses opinions when i can pick up there book at a 2nd hand shop for a 4.99. but perhaps you need field work to prove yourself. perhaps.. I am no scientist, just a science enthusiast….but i am no ignoramus either. niether are you if you have studied.
how old do I think the earth is?
i think it is impossible to tell how old the earth is. the scientist keep adding millions and million of years on it every time you turn around… if they and their college research labs can’t get a date who can? but what you are really asking me is if I trust carbon dating. the answer is – No i do not trust Radoactive carbon dating. there are far too many cases of it misdating things. it is not reliable it is a variable not a constant so how could i trust it? i know that is like heresy in much of the science world but carbon dating is not at all accurate especially anything dating over a few thousand years, and it certainly cannot detect carbon for millions of years. Radioactive carbon does not last long enough do appropriatly date these things even on a half life.
plus CO2 in the air, The sun and biological make up of individual plants all fluxuate the supposed age of the matter. its not accurate, what scientist actually do is use there best hypothosis on the age.
but i am sure you are in the camp that of course actually believes in this process, so pehaps we are a stand still, i don’t know… this is my full take on the age of the earth- no one knows how old it is….
and no one can do anything other than speculate, and use the dates to there advantage on its age. if it tests what they want it to test, they put it in their theorys if it doesn’t they sweep the test under the rug. period. in other words the Game is rigged. NO ONE KNOWS the date. and just because someone with an agenda to disprove religion tells you such and such- its all speculation and half truths.
one thing you will find out about me i am quite comfortable saying i don’t know when i know that information cannot be accessed by anyone. just like we don’t know how big the universe is we don’t know the age of the earth. period.
Bank man- on a side note if i am soooo brainwashed and my sekel is forcockted please feel free to give a discourse on my mishugie ideas, please debunk them if i have said something that does not line up with actual science.
frumger, i have friends that are in the same boat as you, many of them. There is no discussion. It is emunah peshuta. blind faith. ignore facts. I have had one too many frustrating conversations and am not interested in starting one up with you.
I do enjoy discussing these things with people who are open-mided, skeptical (about ALL arguments) and willing to ceade points.
I see you are willing to say the torah is false in that it says the earth is 6,000 yrs old….thats a start. better than most orthodox rabbis.
FrumGer: Is it correct to say you don’t believe the earth is under 10,000 years old? My question wasn’t: exactly how old is the world? Rather, “do you believe it’s more or less than 10,000 years old.
Also, do you believe in evolution?
Once we’re clear on these points, we can proceed to other points.
You also haven’t answered what you would do if your faith could be proven unfounded scientifically. I think it’s actually an important question that all believers should ask themselves: if my reasons for believing copllapsed, what would I do? Would I give up with faith? Would I be in denial? Would I proudly go off the d, and convince everyone I know to do the same? Would I go off the d quietly, and keep the secret to myself?
My impression is that people like Garnel are folks who lost all emuna but continue to hang on because of cowardice, inertia, as well as this pernicious belief that religion causes morality, so even if their religion is absolutely false, why should they “give it all up?” and why would they tell anyone the secret if it will make them immoral? you see? so this is an important question to address as well.
otd
i went otd with christianitty then i went OTD with atheism now didn’t i? i am not going to do something for the sake of it but I know there is a G-d and that is something that cannot be disproven, even dawkins is now saying that life transported to this earth via perhaps alien life. so this guy more readily believes in ET then he will G-d. life from no life cant happen we know that now, but still people just cant except it. aliens, the formost athiestic scientist says life is on earth because of aliens. a higher intellegence but not G-d. semantics i say. if there were no G-d i would not be anything other than a social jew. eating bagels and watching seinfeld. but i know there is-
Age of the earth— the actual age of the earth even the starkest most pious rabbi could not tell you. that is specualtion. and bank man — the Torah says how old man is not how old the earth is… time is relative. it is an abstraction. time has no actual value except what we give it. it can never be twelve o clock because you can continuely sub divided it into milla seconds. it is a earth thing it does not apply to G-d. so to say seven days for G-d well that cannot be equated. how can you put something into the finite that cannot be.
lets forget finite… you technically cannot even say G-d is eternal. eternal is never ending. meaning- starting from a point of origin and never stopping. eternity. our souls are eternal. G-d is infinite. meaning there is no point of origin. so how can you put this into a time which is finite or at best eternal.
so you cannot measure with accuracy G-d or his actions in a reletive time. so in other simpler words, what is a day to us could be milllions of years in G-ds production time, or vice versa, what is millions of years in our universe’s time could be just one day to G-d. so the earth could be 10,000 years old to G-d and 100 million to us or the earth could be 100 million in G-d time and only 10,000 to us.
because G-d is not bound to time and cannot even be measured with time measuring tools. you question is flawed because it cannot be measured, which is why i said i don’t know, there is not an answer to it. science has used a most flawed process to date our rock and have changed the date so many times to best fit their “theories” i don’t trust that. the Torah state only that mans existence has been around between almost 6000 years, that is a better question, you should have asked how long do you think man has been around.
i would have said almost 6000 years. but then there are too many variables in that question too, how long man was in Gan Eden for example.
Evolution- again i will try to answer this again
As i do not know hashems meathods invovled in the actual creation other than what is in the Torah there is no way for me to say that evolution happened or didn’t happened. i believe in evolution in this sense that G-d took dirt (simple elements minerals etc) and made me out of it. the process he used i cannot understand. I DON’T believe we are how we are formed from billions of failed attempts untill finally something went right. i do beleive in adaptation though. i do beleive in the ability to change our bilogical makeup to better our species, in more suttle ways.
darwin beleived blacks where basically missing links. i beleive their skin’s melenin changed to suit there sunny invironment their noses widened to suit a dusty dry climate etc. so it is posible to improve yes. but us getting here over billions of years and billions of failed attempts, no.
frumger, “time has no actual value” “it is a earth thing it does not apply to G-d.” “seven days for G-d well that cannot be equated.”
whatever. for many many many years, orthodox jews (including MOST orthodox jews today) believed that the part of the torah that we read this past shabbos, was not allegory, but real. Now, that we have evidence to the contrary…..”its not REALLY 7 days, time is bla bla bla”
when it doesnt work, we kvetch it out. Please.
free your mind, and the rest will follow
Blank man –
time is relative, – period. pehaps it did take seven earth days, but then again seven days on earth could mean millions of years worth of creation time for G-d. because he know the end form the beginning. He is the Aleph and he is the Tau. meaning in one day the earth could develop for a million years. or it could have developed for 24 hours. either way i don’t beleive the Torah account is flawed. but that doesn’t mean the dirt we are walking on can’t be millions of years old or thousands of years old because there is no accurate way to test it either way. if the torah says 7 days then its seven days, but again, those seven days are reletive to an infinite G-d and His creating methods, which no one really knows…
Okay. So you believe in evolution (sort of), and you’re open to the possibility that the earth is very old, much older than 10,000 years. What are we arguing about again?
Also, I don’t believe you can say you went OTD from atheism. Atheism has historically never been marketed well, but religions generally have. Read The God Delusion, my advice. Hey, most people don’t even know what atheism means. Did you know atheists are hated even more than Jews? That should stop some frummies in their tracks, bitching all day long about ANTI SEMITISM….
One step in the right direction, thank you for this article/post. It’s all very hard for us to not judge, too, but it is what we aim to do.
Best,
Another fellow jew 🙂
OTD-
I despise Richard Dawkins….. He is a pompus pretentious ass. I have not read his book in totallity but definately have read bits and peices, and have heard him debate. This guy is the biggest narcissisist in the world and a total egomainac. I used to think he was at least a viable opponent to religion, but now he is just rediculious.
i mean when i first heard him say that our first spark of life in this planet might have come from aliens i lost all respect for him. this guy will believe more readily that aliens are our creator then to believe that this world could even possibly be created by A supreme creator. You would ask him- is it possible for there to be a G-d to create us ? t and he would say no, but he will at least entertain the idea that alien life put life on this earth. that is only because the “first spark” is now such a silly idea form when darwin first proposed it they have to come up with something. answer- aliens! But i ask what created the aliens? are they infinate? then they are G-d.
let me ask you how is there more proof for aliens then G-d? don’t both require faith? don’t both need the same level of abstract thinking? that is when i knew bottom line, this guy is a misnaged of religion and G-d for a more personal purpose.
he hates religion, he despises G-d. he is not an objectve researcher, he is out to disprove G-d and religion, with a bias. i believe strongly that some religious figure in his past caused him a great deal of pain and now maybe even sub con level he is trying to get back at both G-d and institution.
And when ever i talk to atheists its almost always the same scenario, they either got hurt by religion or a religious figure, felt like G-d “let them down” but having tragic events in there life happen that they cant get over. or they are just a rebellious type that does not want to take orders or be accountible to anything or anyone. this has been my findings on atheists.
Im not saying you are in either of those catigories, but you have to admit it is def. a common thread. Atheism to me is its own religion, takes just as much faith and make about as much sense as anyother religion. to think that your life is meaningless and you are here by anomolly, happenstance.
if you are good or evil it does not matter because those are reletive terms to the society you are in. so being good there is no benifit and being evil there is no consiquence other than maybe jail. that means you just need to be sneeky with your evil. kill someone- but don’t get caught, steal but don’t get caught, whatever you want- just don’t get caught. Atheism to me is a depresssive meaningless religion.
frumger, if you are going strictly on evidence, there is no more reason to argue for a God, or argue for aliens….in fact aliens could make more sense in some respects, than some magical all powerful being – no proof for.
Anon-
youre missing the point…. there would still have to be a creator of the aliens anyway. if they put us on this earth- who created them? have you ever played a barrel of monkeys? in other words there is a chain of creation and that chain has to have a beginning, our universe is not set up for a beginning- because the laws of thermodynamics states clearly that nothing in this universe can create energy, energy is always in transference- never in origin.
the energy i am using now to type has been in our universe since the beginning. so in order to create in this universe the creator has to be a source that is not bound to the laws of this universe. that would be considered a supreme beingm, all powerful. That is G-d. if aliens transfered us here then Who transfered Them There?
The point of origin could only be by something outside the governing laws of this universe, and aliens are still part of this universe, so they would be subjected to its laws.
thats why There Has to be a G-d, not because i need G-d to make sense of all the good and evil in this world. there HAS to be a G-d because that is the only solid explaination of how the universe came to be, because only something outside of this universe could create the energy to originate this universe as this universe has not created one single drop more of energy since said creation. entropy, everything is slowing down everything is cooling off.
think of our universe like a water balloon busting on the ground, that intital bust would be the point of origin and the water inside would be the energy, it makes a huge bang and send the “energy” out in all directions, and eventually the energy/water settles down, and it will get very thin, the energy however cannot stop unless it comes against an opposing energy. action- reaction. that is why our universe is ever expanding, but everything in it is settleing. the Sun is dieing our earth every bit of energy will get so dilluted there will not be enough. that is our universe. it is a constant state of flux and entropy settling.
not one millacalorie of energy is ever created in this universe, so then how did it all begin if this universe does not have the ability create or form any energy? it cannot create itself… A higher creator- not subjected to this universe’s laws had to have created it. HAD TO. no exceptions. i am being redundant because you people will not ever listen. there are no holes in this arguement, there are no agueing points. evolution- we can argue that one… age of this earth we can argue that too. if G-d is a personal G-d or not- that is debatable. but not the fact that there is a G-d. that is not debatable.
i beg anyone one of you please punch a hole in this arguement. please, every single athiest or darwinist all dance around this arguement and start trying to tear down the Torah or use smoke and mirrors with darwin quotes. but none of you can ever for one second give a decent rebuttal to the facts that the laws of this universe prove beyond reprove there has to be a G-d or supreme creator/ designer. weither he also created aliens, not my problem… weither they put me hear on this earth, i choose not to believe that. i choose to worship G-d the way i want to. by being a frum yid. that is where my FAITH comes in. but the fact that there is a G-d, that is beyond reprove.
i have had these debates sooo often, and not one psudo intellectual athiest can give an answer, because they only mainly study biology chemistry and anthropology and archaeololgy they don’t study physics, which is the best form of science in my book. look anon and all y’all— einstien was not religious but even he was a deist at least. i have much more respect for the deists and the agnostics out there, at least they can look past the end of there nose and see a portion of the truth.
frumger, as pointed out on October 16, 2009 at 12:21 pm by bankman, Even if you argue that there MUST be a creator of some sort, it is still a big leap from there to all of the nonsense that Frum Jews believe. The flood, giving a book at sinai to a select few. Ordering the murder of an entire nation, cant be gay, cant sew linen and wool together, sacrificing animals on an alter, some dude will come as the messiah and we will all one day live in Israel….I mean c’mon. Big Leap.
and the 4 animals thing, cmon! thats what you hang your hat on?!?! with all the other discrepancies in the torah, the long laundry lists of names and ages of generations? the chapters and cahpters about sacrificing animals on the alter? believing in this book is truly a leap of faith.
but that is not what i am arguing, see you can’t argue a religion’s specific dogma against an athiest because it become circular logic….. i beleive what i believe because i believe it. again that is where my faith comes in. i choose to recognize Elohai Avraham Yizock v Yaacov…i don’t need to prove why to follow judaism, because it is a faith. the Laws of the Torah i choose to accept as true, just as other faiths choose there way to worship. I know there is a G-d- I know a supreme being can only be One, so the major faith that expounded on the fact that they worshipped one G-d makes sense to me. plus i look at the Yiddish people and believe that there is purpose in this world and there is a reaason we have come all this way in the manner we have. i just know it. i can’t prove the Torah is true no one can prove it. but again everyone has there belief systems- what is funny you are still under the Torah in your everyday life and you don’t even know it… our western philosophy, morality was all formed from
that one document. the things you think are wrong are only wrong in your mind because of the Torah. no book as been more influential in the world then the Torah, no book has lasted longer with the impact like the Torah has. that for me is proof enough. but again i don’t care if you don’t believe in the Torah, that is one thing- but to not beleive in a G-d at all is absurd and that is what i am concerned with proving or being a witness to.
frumger, i am assuming you are an orthodox jew, so all i have to say is that i am surprised you (or anyone) would choose to live this lifestyle without any evidence that there is any truth whatsoever in it. in fact, with some digging, it is pretty obvious to me (and many others) that it is all man-made hogwash. especially the orthodox, becasue they live their life (or 80% of it ) based on rabbinic decrees that were made so many hundreds of years ago that are just so silly.
and to argue that becasue the torah has had an impact on civilization, therfore there must be some truth there, is also lacking in logic and reason.
Well that is not totally true, the Torah accounts have not been disproven to be true, and i believe what i beleive because i choose to beleive it. i have to beleive in something and i choose to believe the accounts of the Torah, it gives my life meaning, peace and brings my life pleasure to be Shomer Torah. No logic needed. faith can defy logic. and in this case it does for me. i feel better believing something- bottom line. if its a pacifier or a crutch then so be it, but i don’t think it is… its a win win for me, i get a 3500 year old heritage, great traditions, morality, confidence when i die, something to teach my kinderlock… i think there is nothing better than that… i am perfectly happy and settled with the thought that i might be wrong but i don’t care if i am, i have faith in something. it keeps your life wet. without faith you cannot be have anything other than logic and reason, see too much of that and it makes your life DRY like overcooked chicken… see what i got going on i can dabb into science, logic, reason, philiosophy, and mysticism. i am balanced. and i am happy.
‘…i get a 3500 year old heritage, great traditions, morality, confidence when i die, something to teach my kinderlock… i think there is nothing better than that… i am perfectly happy and settled with the thought that i might be wrong but i don’t care if i am…’
Being wrong doesn’t bother you?
No, you have no ‘morality’. You’re filth, FrumGer.
Keep believing whatever the rabbis say, OK? Even when they’re proven wrong. Even if they claim that women have diminished mental capacities, even if they claim that fleas come from dirt, even if they claim that goyim are stupid.
Just believe every last bit of it, even the parts that are lies. After all, blind faith is more important than reality.
Luckily, not all converts are as immoral as you; my mother certainly isn’t.
“Torah accounts have not been disproven to be true”
“faith can defy logic”
“i feel better believing something”
at least you admit those things, i give you credit. most frum jews would not say that.
“Torah accounts have not been disproven to be true”
but most agree that they are VERY unlikely
Challenge to comment #22 from OTD:
Why does the entire world (granted: civilized world) accept a 7-day week model? The number 7 does not go into any way you divide the year’s day cycles; 7 doesn’t go into 30 (30/7=4.285714…) nor into 365 evenly (365/7=52.142857…). Yet there is no part of the civilized world that does not use the 7-day week: six days for the work week and one day for the weekend.
Any idea why?
Wanna try reestablishing the week as an 8-day entity; how successful will you be? How about a 6-day week?
By the by: Have you ever tried looking at the sun? How does it look? I can’t look at it; it’s far, far too bright for my eyes.
The sun, however, is there for me to look at if I choose to. And I know that it helps in the creation of life (vitamin D, photosynthesis in plant life and humans, the replenishment of the earth’s surface with water and so many other ecological aspects), yet at the same time it destroys life (skin cancer, burns, wild fires and so much else). So powerful is the sun.
What would it take for me to convince you and Tova and all those like you, that the sun is a beautiful hue of purple? It’s right there in the sky, but I can’t see it, and neither can you; but I tell you, upon my word as a gentleman, that the sun’s color is not red or yellow or white: it’s purple. Can you prove to me otherwise?
But, regardless of its color, it sits there suspended in a Space that has no substance to hold itself, let alone a “star” many hundreds of times larger than the earth; and it’s so, so far away from me. Yet I can’t look at it.
I assume the sun’s distance from earth is precisely measured because if it were any closer, we’d burn up, and any farther, and we’d freeze.
Who could come up with such a novel design? Chance? A big bang? Darwin? OTD or Tova?
I wonder…
‘all those like you’
What, exactly, do you mean? I’m a Jew trying to live a Jewish life…Do you have a problem with that?
Or is my refusal to always agree with rabbis a bad thing?
Tova,
I see you’ve gone karaite on us. Why bother eating food with a hechsher or lighting Shabbat candles, it’s all from those same rabbis you accuse of creating lies.
MAGNIFIQUE!
It amazes me that all you got from the post is offense but never could you address my two queries…
Besides: screw “trying to live a Jewish life.”
Why put yourself through all that gruesome trouble? I mean: if the concepts of belief are oh, so difficult to comprehend, then, yes, people like you, OTD and ‘all those like you,’ oughtn’t try to find the answers. Just do your thing and forget the whole Jewish thing. Nobody’s holding your feet to the fire…yet.
God is not the earth and sun and rain and all the grandiosities you think He is; God is in the fact that you found a parking spot soon enough; got home from the rain, sopping and cold, and found that the roof is NOT leaking; know why? Because you could as soon not have found the parking spot and the roof might have sprung a leak.
But God is not an entity that argues or stands against science; God, for those of us who’ve come to believe in Him, trust Him and really love Him, is the nucleus of life.
Shall I try to convey to you, for instance, how fortunate I’ve been in the days following Yom Tov that I haven’t starved–b’chasdei HaShem, literally–it’d be a joke. But the beautifully turning trees of Autumn is not what makes me realize that there is a God–that is just a confirmation–but it is the day to day struggle and victory over the probable that make me know that God is there, is there for me, and I’m nothing without Him.
Theology is tough; and something tells me I will never get a straight answer, other than the obvious, from you or anybody else for my questions.
FG: >confidence when i die
How can you be confident there’s an afterlife if you’re not sure it’s true?
>Who could come up with such a novel design? Chance? A big bang? Darwin?
Islam! It answers all my questions perfectly! And when it doesn’t?
I HAVE FAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OTD, they are brainwashed. there is no reason and logic….good try though.
The week is 7 days, therefore the jewish god created the world. lol
‘all the grandiosities you think He is;’
You don’t know a damned thing about what I think God is, though I’m sure you’d like to decide so for me.
God’s the reason I’m still alive – He has performed miracles for me. Yet you’re nasty to me, and classify me as irreligious, because I have theological questions.
OK.
@Phil: What’s with the rude attitude? Feeling lonely during nidda or something?
I wasn’t trying to be rude, just realistic and calling a spade a spade as usual. You should know me better than that by now.
What else do you call people that think Chazal’s opinions are nonsense?
“people that think Chazal’s opinions are nonsense?”
Who said that? Not I.
What I did say, however, was that much of what Chazal said and wrote needs to be taken within historical context and other contexts, too.
Tova,
Who wrote “Just believe every last bit of it, even the parts that are lies. “?
Do you think that:
1) All Chazal were liars?
2) Some of the Chazal were liars?
3) Some Chazal lied only when it was convenient for them?
4) None of the Chazal were liars, the lies were added by the publishers?
I’m nasty to you, Tova? Is this a “boohoo” moment for you? Is it to be a “mea culpa” for me?
I don’t care how religious you are. Besides, theological questions are good for religious people so long as they have an idea of what they want to derive from what others might say.
Nobody cares if you act/dress/think/speak Jewish.
But you keep going in circles, chasing your tail and every time an argument is brought forth, you take offense, don’t answer to the point and begin lashing out. (OTD: get a clue: so many have called you on your bitterness; isn’t it indicative to how sad a creature you are? Go find some peace…)
You’re a bunch of reasonable persons, yes? Your questions seems to be straightforward. I asked (as is only wont of a Jew to ask a question in response to a question) two in return; both of them very peculiar and both only able to be answered with logic based on history.
OTD did have a valid point; and that is, indeed the next step in the conversation.
Islam.
Three religions in the world call HaShem their God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In most lexicons these three are known as monotheistic religions. mono=one; Dei or thei=God. Some would argue that Christianity is not a monotheistic religion, but this in not the issue here.
These three religions claim to originate from the same God, and their sets of laws concerning day to day life and morality (yes, morality ethics originates from the Torah; the notion otherwise is as ridiculous as the notion of the big bang theory) emanates from the Torah. Nobody in the three disputes this; only each other‘s legitimacy.
But how the Jewish Torah became a hodge-podge in the years after Christianity and Islam came about is simple;
In the interest of thwarting polytheism, idolatry, paganism and all kinds of other spiritualistic rackets, some “prophets” who were anything but, decided to preach monotheistic notions. Straight out of the Torah.
But in order to create audiences for themselves, they performed tricks from the old magic books of Egypt and Ethiopia. Want proof? Those books are all extant and not overly difficult to decipher. And the flying, walking on water, creating bread and wine and all those good stories may or may not be true; but the makers of those deeds were not men of God. Just good salespeople with guidebooks to some neat magic tricks.
Subsequently, both Christianity and Islam refer to the Torah as the source material and basis for their religion.
So: you want the original or the bastardized version?
And so you’ll come swinging back at me: but, but, but what’s with Chazal????!!!
Simple: oral law should be a simple enough idea to makes its way into your brain;
When a traffic cop stops you–you’ve passed a red light, probably because you’re on the phone, and you are, of course, not wearing a seatbelt–and he proceeds to write a series of summonses, what do you tell him? “Prove to me that the law says I’m not to do these things!”? Or do you, with your tail twixt your legs, take it all, KNOWING that those laws do exist and you broke them?
And if you do ask him that silly question, will he go retrieve the book of the traffic laws from his car?
Similarly, and as is quoted in Pirkei Avos: God gave the Torah to Moshe; Moshe to Yehoshu’a; Yehoshu’a to the Elders and so on; if every single generation and source can be quoted and identified, apparently there’s no mystery to the origin of the Torah and the Torah sh’ba’al Peh.
And it so happens that, though the Torah is not a history book and should never be thought of as one, the Medrash and the Gemara and all other Talmudic sources address in one place or another EVERY SINGLE ISSUE you people put forth. Creation is thoroughly expounded upon; leaving no doubt to the Torah stance to the origin of the world and its inhabitants. So is the case with everything, including the biology of the four animals and the subcategories and all that good stuff.
It’s all there. Plus stuff you can never conceive of or even comprehend.
Upon your questions about morality: look: since certain diseased individuals, known popularly as Liberals, take upon themselves to redefine morals and ethics, does not mean that their ideas are true. And if you want to follow what their ideas are, go ahead, but don’t fool yourself, and certainly don’t try convincing us, that those are morals and ethics.
War is unethical. So why the hell do we live in America, a country won by a war? Genocide is unethical: so how could we have gotten the land of Israel?
And the question of Hitler doesn’t stand either: he tried to wipe out the Jewish nation. Tried. That’s the operative word. Did he succeed? Look in the mirror.
What was the reason for the Holocaust? I won’t ask that question of God, as I won’t ask why God decided to give me dinner tonight. Chances are I didn’t deserve it, as much as those who perished might have deserved it.
Deserve? Who deserves anything?!
Nobody is entitled to anything!
He has a plan, whether you in your arrogance understand it or not.
Theism is tough, yes? But Judaism is not about theism; yet it’s definitely not about blind belief either. It’s about sensing it for yourself. In the smaller things in life.
David,
I stopped reading after the “liberal” accusation. Anyone who knows me understands that I’m one of the furthest things one can get from a leftist.
No question is ever “silly”, contrary to what you’re implying. That attitude is one of the things that has caused so many Jews to stray.
“I don’t care how religious you are…Nobody cares if you act/dress/think/speak Jewish.”
You’re sure acting like it. Why else would you offered a lengthy and detailed response? And while you may not care how religious I am, I certainly do; it’s important to me. I’m sorry it’s not important to you.
“…very time an argument is brought forth, you take offense, don’t answer to the point and begin lashing out. ”
Citation, please.
*would you have offered
By the way, who are “you people”?
Tova, I lost interest in this discussion after my opponents continued to call me names. Whoever I’m “supposed” to debate with continue to call me (and others) names, so I don’t really see a point in having a discussion.
I think I’ll follow suit, as you make a good point.
Since you’re not about to respond with real questions or even digest anything I wrote for the matter of argument, but you’re gonna nit-pick and take offense, I wonder: are you as much fun in person?
I mean: you must be a bit hard to get to know… Never a straight, to the point, response from you.
BTW: if you can imagine that morality is man-made then you are Liberal. How far Left, I don’t know; nor do I care. (And of course I care if you’re religious: one Jew must care that his brother–or sister–has not made peace with his/her relationship with God; hence this thread…I think.) Had God not commanded us “do not steal” I would NOT have known it. And if one person woke up one morning and exclaimed so: he wouldn’t have had pants to don because it would have been stolen. No law can be implemented if it doesn’t come from a superior power/authority.
American Law, indeed, is based on the Judeo-Christian system: el surprise!
You’re the “furthest things one can get from a leftist”? Eh; I have my doubts. Even though I know you not.
Another beautiful metaphor confounded to ease your non-point across: “silly” was the question to the cop; direct was the link I was making twixt the metaphor and the argument against Chazal.
Let’s try another tack:
Do you know that in the 1890s a woman by the name Kunigunde Mackamotzki lived in Brooklyn? No?
I tell you there was. How do I know? I read about her.
Should you believe me? You could if you want; but if you don’t, it doesn’t diminish the veracity of the fact.
Similarly with Chazal. Believe it or not: the Gemara is true and it’s survived almost three millenia before you plopped yourself before your computer to write your polemics, so I’m more inclined to believe its veracity than your non-arguments.
To “offthederech,” Judaism is the ONE and ONLY religion in the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD that has more than one person who was there when the religion was given to them, most other religions have one person alone who came out and claimed that he had a revelation, or something like that, BUT regarding Judaism that isn’t true, because when G-d gave us the Torah at Sinai, there was a nation there, OVER 600,000 people there as witnesses that they heard G-d and saw all of the miracles taking place, NOT EVEN ONE religion in the world has more than a single person there, not even two people there, only 1 person there when they claim that they had a revelation.
Furthermore, when the Jews left Egypt, the entire world knew and recognized of what great miracles G-d was performing at the Yam-Suf (Crossing of the Sea).
And if you beleive in Science, all science is, is a bunch of theory, the B
And if you believe in Science, all science is, is a bunch of theory, the Big Bang THEORY, it could be disproved at anytime, and there have been scientists, and researchers that came out and disproved it, it just hasn’t received public recognition, same with the Darwin Theory.
There are also plenty of more proofs out there that Judaism is true, and if you really have no connection to Judaism, than you wouldn’t be on this blog, or be connected with Jewish friends, the inner reason why your connected with your Jewish friends, is because deep inside you something is pushing you back to the Torah and Mitzvos, you may not admit that this is true, but f you do, or when a person does, you have to dig deep inside yourself to bring this feeling out into how you conduct yourself, a lot of people want to believe in, and have a love for Judaism, its just that the way their raised, they just see it as more and more rules and guidelines placed before them, and they don’t have a feeling for it, so they don’t want to be a part of it, I’m in high school, and I see this happening its very unfortunate.
Before Judaism there were no morals people would marry their own children, have affairs, anything, murder robbery, rape, etc. nobody looked down upon it, after the time period of Noach, the feeling of some morale’s started to get into people, and by Avraham, morale’s were widely recognized, and after the Torah was given, these and other morals were almost universally recognized until the present day, not necessarily by everyone. Present day people recognized Judaism as the source of the existence of all morale’s and without Judaism morale’s may not exist, I believe even Obama and Bush have recognized this along with other leaders, and some of the worlds smartest people.
Come on people ultimately why does it matter what Phil believes vs what Tova believes? The article was about preconceptions being smashed. How about we try and do that here? I believe in evolution and the awesome power of my divine Creator. I also believe that sometimes we use external conflicts as an outlet for our inner conflicts, as is evidenced by the past 146 comments.
Lets just try and remember what the author was saying and stop insulting each other. We are all Jewish, we all have the capacity to elevate our thoughts and words into something holy and meaningful.
Love, empathy and peace.
I want to offer everyone milk and cookies. I have no time to hate. Religion and faith are not logical. If you’re okay with that, that’s fine. If you’re not okay with that, that’s fine, too. Zealots are annoying, regardless of what their argument. I’m not perfect. My righteous indignation is more obnoxious because I am more happy than I am observant. May peace beat a swift path to your door, whatever its form.
David and all you other guys. not sure what you think you will accomplish by throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, but tossing around all the typical aish and BT “proofs” etc of ancient judaism being true to this well-thought out, reasoned, logical and rational crowd will not “work” (whatever you are trying to accomlish)
there are discussions, both pro and con, about the “proofs” and other arguments you bring up – and have been for hundreds, if not more, years (even among gedolim, believe it or not) Many of these discussions you can find online and are quite informative.
“But you keep going in circles, chasing your tail and every time an argument is brought forth” That is what life is David. Life is a journey. you call it chasing your tail, other call it searching, questioning, travelling, probing, examining…most are not looking for a way out, but want to live a meaningful life and not just blindly accept what has been spoon-fed to us since birth. I wish you could see that.
I beg to differ, respectfully.
Hypothesis in the question of emunah are quite concrete; proof to point: the questions I asked are forever evaded (in lieu of more questions that never address the initial questions) and an answer is never sought, only more argument.
You may find Aish and such grating, but, honsetly, I did not take my arguments from Aish–at least directly, consciously–because I never attended Aish yeshivohs or lectures on the topic of yedi’as HaShem. Of course they’re not my own ideas; but the truth is I never needed “proof” because my life has shown me that no matter how much I rebel and try to forget, God is there with me and for me.
Yes: obvious nissim*.
Anecdotal evidence is worthless because my story or your story will never suffice for Tova, say. She and OTD and others like them would have to find it within themselves, in their own experience in life, that there is indeed a Father in Heaven, and He is “fair” and compassionate, contrary to what others may say.
And if things are not going my way, for instance, I can, because I know, either ask for better circumstances (the very reason why we pray thrice a day), learn a lesson from the circumstance (we have intelligence for that purpose; responsible people always LEARN from life experiences) or grow stronger (God NEVER gives a person a test or problem that cannot be overcome with application and tenacity.)
Life–as it ought to be lived–is about striving, not retracting; questions that you ask for the sake of asking, never to hear an argument that may make sense and actually answer the question, is retractive: backwards. It doesn’t lead to anything other than bitterness (and we’ve seen PLENTY of that in a certain character in this thread) and unsatisfaction; because whilst everybody else was moving forward understanding and knowing–everybody according to his/her capacity–what he/she ought to do, this guy or gal were still asking, “but how do you know?”
Blind belief?
Well, if my anecdotes in my life and your anecdotes in your life don’t satisfy the questioning party, then you bring forth some questions that cannot be answered in any other way. Why? Because it corroborates what others have been arguing.
As I said: the sun is purple…
*Because “neis” is erroneously translated as “miracle,” it doesn’t surprise me that the occurrence of one doesn’t have effect on perpetual questioners; after all: Jesus and Mohamed also performed miracles, also known as magic.
“Nissim” literally means “signs.”
That is the fundamental idea here; and it is also the reason why God doesn’t perform Nissim for just anyone; He doesn’t have to prove His existence to anyone; He IS.
So if anybody tries arguing that He doesn’t exist, all a divine response’d be a shrug of the shoulder: “he doesn’t believe in God? Big deal; it doesn’t diminish God’s existence and power.”
So an relatively easy childbirth; the baby healthy and growing correctly; eventually speaking, walking, creating and being: are all by chance. No neis, no sign that God had compassion and did NOT breach the child; did NOT cause the baby to have respiratory problems, forcing the baby to call the incubator home for months on end; did NOT create speech problems for the growing child and did NOT make him into a destructive delinquent.
The simpler signs are just not there, huh? We need something more powerful; THEN His existence will be acknowledged by some arrogant mortals? NONSENSE!
I am just concerned about her grammar, and her use of apostrophes in the wrong places. It was very distracting, and I lost track of what she was trying to say. I think her point was that the “frummies” demonstrate Ahavat Yisrael when they ignore people who look differently then them.
Wow!! all ive missed since like 3pm yesterday.
Tova- what the hell are you talking about being me being immoral? what have i said that is immoral or filth? good thing all converts are not as immoral as you? what the f was that all about??
I believe chazal because i beleive in the chain of transmission… i beleive chazal because they were men that lived and died through the study of torah. they did not live in this lifetime with the intense distractions we have in this world. they were wise being talmud torah like they were makes you wise. i beleive them because what they write makes sense to me and sticks with me.
it doesn’t bother me to be wrong? why not? i certainly don’t think i am, but there is always the variable there. Any one that doesn’t think they may could possible be wrong everyonce and a while , well that is a person with perfect faith or a person with out a unique brain. i think any one with intelligence 2nd guesses all the time. i do, but everytime i know i have made the right decision on what to beleive. and even if i am wrong i have lead a life that has purpose. so that make me happy.
i really don’t know why the personal attack, but machs nachs….
OTD-
Your islam arguement holds no water, because i chose an independant religion. i beleive a religion that is not built on the top of the ruins of another religion. islam is the crazy writtings of a hermit in a cave who had a catholic christian wife.. the religion he formed is a mix of all the spiritual and mystical ideology of the area at that time. it only gained ground because they had a convert or die policy esp. in the early years. its a bullshit religion. christianity too, bullshit. that is why i choose the source. the root. this religion is the only religion not out to convert the world, thats why It makes so much sense.
David, an easy childbirth is proof that God exists and performs miracales. Likewise, a difficult childbirth and child born with defects, etc. is also proof of God and that he performs miracles.
yep, that passes the smell test.
Written by: Proofs Judaism isn’t “man made”.
To David re: “The simpler signs are just not there, huh? We need something more powerful; THEN His existence will be acknowledged by some arrogant mortals? NONSENSE!”
Question: Do you believe in Moshiach?
Answer: If you don’ that’s a different issue. Assuming that you do One of the prophecies is that before Moshiach comes people (non Jews) will start to recognize the Torah and Hashem’s existence (even moral standards from the Torah), at first a few people, and eventually everyone will, even the worst people that don’t care and do everything bad and immoral.
The source is in Zechariah 14:9, it’s also said 3 times daily in Aleinu: “Hashem will be King over all the world — on that day Hashem will be One and His Name will be One.” It doesn’t mean that Hashem is not One, it just means that everyone will recognize it, and that is why it is very important that these “arrogant mortals” recognize it.
Well, dittos; and that’s been my argument throughout. But I was saying there that small things, which are indeed open and obvious signs of HaShem, do not suffice for those arrogant mortals because they can’t get it through their collective head that big “miracles” are not what one needs to recognize the existence of the Almighty; small, seemingly unimportant occurrences and physical phenomena in biology and such should be so clear to begin with, that they are from the Creator.
Thanks so much for your citations though.