How did it happen that keeping the laws of shomer negiah became that one thing that many frum people like to brag about picking and choosing. Frum people don’t brag about eating treife, breaking shabbos or torturing their pets, yet when it comes to touching the opposite sex it has become acceptable to be lax in that aspect of halacha.
Think about it for a moment. No frum person is going to tell you they speak lashon harah purposefully, drive to shul on shabbos or keep treife. They may say they have their moments of weaknesses, or that they are trying to change, but shomer negiah seems to be exactly the opposite. It’s halacha yet everyone needs to pipe in if they are shomer or not and if you think about, it’s kind of disturbing in a non-disturbing way.
I was talking to someone about shidduchim recently and she said she wasn’t shomer. I didn’t think twice about it. It’s normal to pick and choose being shomer. Yet, if she had said she doesn’t keep kosher I would have had no one in mind for her. How did we become like this?
I think part of it has to do with the nature of negiah. Refraining from premarital physical contact with the opposite sex is super hard, no pun intended. It’s one of those things that may not be easy to justify. How can you justify needing to go against halacha and be intimate with someone prior to marriage – it doesn’t seem possible unless you go for the “taking the test drive” route. It is rarely just a test drive. Breaking shomer negiah is more of a lease agreement.
If I want to know the halachos of Shabbos, I know where to look in Shulchan Aruch for it. Likewise the halachos of kashrus. Where can I find “Hilchos Shomer Negiah”?
Have you thought about Hilchos Yichud?
Q, I suggest looking at Even HaEzer.
Rambam, hilchot issurei biah, chapter 21
Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer, 21
alternatively, use this link for the Rambam,
http://mechon-mamre.org/i/5121n.htm
(short note: ??? ????????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ??????? is not to be understood as only those two actions, they are only examples and any similar actions that produce similar results are implicitly included)
The Shulchan Aruch has plenty of halachos on dealing with women. The basic summary is that you can’t even look at, talk with in, laugh with or think about one. So forget shomer negiah, you’re over wayyy before it comes to touching.
I think Leib Tropper wrote a definitive book about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leib_Tropper
Interesting post. Seldom does someone look at you twice if say you aren’t.
It’s just one of those things that is almost unfair. It’s also like a safeguard on a safeguard. The real prohibition is no sex, that’s all. There’s no Shomer Negiya in the Torah. I have heard that even the Rabbis knew we would end up breaking it, it just goes against human nature. I admire anyone who seriously has always been Shomer, but then again I think it’s one of those things that is easier if you have been Shomer your whole life as opposed to someone who wasn’t and then tried. It’s easier if you don’t know what you are missing….
BS”D
As far as I know, the only things in the Torah about sex are a) “Be fruitful and multiply, and b) you can’t sleep with a married woman. As far as I know there’s nothing about waiting for marriage.
Judaism is not just about Shomer Negia, it’s a whole system, and way of thinking, with each part of it, supporting the rest of the parts. If you stay away from hanging out with the opposite sex, stay away from romantic/sexual movies, and occupy yourself with Torah, Shomer Negia will become exponentially easier for you. I guarantee!
According to the Rambam it is mitva direct from the torah the pasuk is (i do not have the source on me right now) is “though shalt not approach a woman in her time of niddah to uncover her nakedness” approach means things leading to sex which is intimate touch, so we avoid all touch except things like doctors
Booooring
I always thought shomer negiah was a minhag not a halacha. The only part I thought was halacha was the actual not having sex before marriage (or before the mikvah) part, not anything related to not touching the opposite sex. No orthodox person I know had ever heard of shomer negiah until like the mid-80s. What is the halachic source for it?
The source is a taking either the Mishne Torah/Shulchan Aruch out of context and teaching it as if it applies here. Both texts clearly indicate that there is an issur to be derech chiba (to touch in an affectionate manner, but lust affection not love affection, though that distinction is rarely ever taught) – and that is usually the end of the discussion for those that “teach” about “shomer negiah.” If you actually read it, then it’s clearly about an issur to be derech chiba with *arayos* – i.e. your mother, your daughter, someone else’s wife, etc. Not ‘all women in the universe’.
It’s not a Yeshivish thing to say that “I’m not shomer”. They might not be, but they don’t say it out loud. It’s a MO thing. Just like they’re free to pick and choose all the other halachot they don’t keep. It’s just a symptom of the “I’ll decide what I feel like doing” MO culture.
I respect an outright “pick and choose” person more than a yeshivish person who pretends to be shomer but really isn’t and doesn’t try to be.
there is always gonna b someone ‘pretending’ in every community. there r ppl in MO world pretending to b keeping their standards too. yeshivish ppl dnt do any more pretending then anyone else
In any community, those “pretending” are not worthy of respect, while those being honest with themselves and others about their choices most certainly are.
There is alot of hypocrisy in Judaism. While the hypocrisy is not in the Torah and its teachings, it is in many Jews. That is a huge turnoff to me personally and is probably singlehandedly responsible for me choosing not to be frum.
And that is something I learned this Shavuos, I’m happy to say. For years I thought that my choices were not governed by religion at all, but as it turns out, the path my life has taken over the past 15 years or so is a direct result of encounters and experiences with frum hypocrites. A very wise speaker at a Shavuos Torah class pointed out to me that it is up to me – it is my challenge – to look past the hypocrites.
There is hypocracy everywhere! If you judge any ideology based on the poeple that claim to follow it, you will never believe in anything. You have to pick a way of life that makes sence to you, and strive towards achieving perfection in it. Pointing fingers at other people, is a lame explanation for rejecting or embracing a religeon.
What I shared on here is not an explanation, but rather a realization that I had just come to [with the aid of religion and religious people]. Now that I have realized this, I will be that much more aware when making future life choices and I am acutely aware right now how my life was shaped as a result of past experiences, particularly as pertaining to religion.
How does any person pick a way of life that makes sense? There are two [seriously broad] ways: being brought up a certain way is one and delving into/learning about something radically different than what you’ve known up to that point is another. The way to learn is from those who are in a position to teach – that is what I am referring to. I did not grow up in a religious family, environment or country for that matter. When my family moved to the U.S. I ended up in a Yeshiva at the age of 14 and then had my first glance at Judaism.
I hope that makes more sense. I did not simply decide to judge an ideology one day. Rather, it is how the events in my life unfolded and the choices I’ve made as a result.
Someone who does something wrong, but keeps it private, is not a hypocrite! They are ashamed! Its a good character trait! Someone who does something wrong but is unabashed and parades it around and has to let everyone know has no shame!
the average person doesnt do do some mitzvos but some aveiros because they are hypocrites. They do it because they are overcome by a desire and the spirit of folly enters them. Eventually if they continue to do it they become blind and insensitive. But people don’t wake up in the morning and say “Today I am going to be a hypocrite and an asshole.”
Get real.
Someone who does something wrong, but keeps it private, is not a hypocrite! They are ashamed! Its a good character trait! Someone who does something wrong but is unabashed and parades it around and has to let everyone know has no shame!
the average person doesnt do do some mitzvos but some aveiros because they are hypocrites. They do it because they are overcome by a desire and the spirit of folly enters them. Eventually if they continue to do it they become blind and insensitive. But people don’t wake up in the morning and say “Today I am going to be a hypocrite and an asshole.”
Get real.
What happened to my comment?
Is there a size limit to comments? I tried posting my comment here 3 times, and it won’t appear.
The spam filter flagged it. It’s up now.
Shmirat negiah between unrelated or unmarried men & women is not halacha like Shabbat & Kashrut. It’s more akin to muktzah. It’s a geder.
It it really taken less seriously today? Yes & no. A couple of hundred years ago among traditionalist Jews, the roles of men & women were different, and social interaction was much more limited (though much less limited than in charedi cirlcles today.) So negiah wasn’t an issue. It just wasn’t something that would come up normally so didn’t need to be guarded against.
Today, women have much more public roles and the sexes interact much more. Jewish teenagers modeled themselves after the popular culture around them in the 50’s & 60’s. So girls and boys touching each other became much more prevalent. With the turn to the right in the 70’s and 80’s there was a backlash against modernity, so the “negiah” issue was born. My parents were MO teenagers in the 50’s. Nobody in the MO knew about negiah at all back then.
So it was never a halacha that had to be kept or not kept. It just wasn’t an issue at all till recent decades, and now has become an indicator on where you stand on the social spectrum of contemporary Orthodoxy.
My own opinion is that “are you shomer” is a rather juvenile obsession, accompanied by much giggling and a little bit of titillation in discussing the issue.
Yes it was a halacha.
It is in the Shulchan Aruch.
Just because it is not the same as shabbos as kashrus doesn’t make it optional.
True, it is a geder meant to prevent one from violating a more serious issur, and not a prohibition unto itself, but that doesn’t change the fact that from the point of view of observant Judaism, it is not optional.
So what that know one MO knew about it in the 50’s?
That doesn’t make it go away.
David, from the point of many observant Jews glatt meat, separate seating and tall mechitzas are halacha too.
I just thought that it is halacha based on the fact that niddah status applied to all women who have not been to the mikvah. First someone says it’s halacha then someone says it’s chumra – make up your minds.
In my mind it’s kind of sad that it became that one halcaha which is optional, no one says they sort of keep kosher – you do or you don’t
You are correct, it is halacha. It’s forbidden to touch a woman who is a Niddah. It is forbidden for a woman to go to Mikveh without being married properly. Therefore, it is forbidden to touch any woman who is not your wife. Niddah is an issur kareis, just saying.
It’s forbidden to touch a woman who is a Niddah.
“forbidden” is thrown around way too much. Do you check if a woman is a niddah before shaking her hand in the workplace? This, too, is a geder.
Nu, who told you you’re allowed to shake a woman’s hand? When Shulchan Oruch says something, it doesn’t matter what the purpose is, it’s halacha.
TRS, do you live in the real world?
And what did people do before R Yosef Karo wrote the S”A and R Moshe Isserles wrote his addendums?
The shulchan aruch isn’t Torah MiSinai, despite what you may have learned in yeshiva. Halacha was a LOT more heterogeneous before the 18th century.
“Nu, who told you you’re allowed to shake a woman’s hand? “
I’m a 40 year old adult. I don’t need to ask my mommy (aka the shulchan aruch) before being able to judge whether shaking a woman’s hand in the workplace will lead to lascivious thoughts.
Let me explain my position thusly: I don’t care what you do (I mean, as a Lubavitcher [and more importantly, as a Jew] of course I do, but that’s not relevant here), and as long as you’re not trying to force anyone else to do anything, well, in my books you’re all right. At the same time, it bothers me greatly to see Judaism perverted. Do what you want, but don’t try to cloak your actions in the mantle of Judaism.
So yes, to answer your question, I do live in the real world. Am I perfect? Obviously not. Do I claim that my sins are in any way supported by the Torah or Halacha? Absolutely not.
re: Halacha: Whatever happened two hundred or two thousand years ago matters not. What matters is the common tradition we’ve received from our forefathers as it’s been brought down into our time. All I know is what I was taught in Yeshiva, and that’s all I need to know, because the entire Judaism is based on tradition, on what people learn in Yeshiva.
re: workplace: Good for you. But what does that have to do with whether it’s right or wrong?
Oh, with child molestation, fraud, organ trafficking, and a plethora of other Chiluley HaShem, shaking hands during an interview is perverting Judaism.
You do realise that your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, is not a logical statement, and makes it appear as if you are incapable of rational thought, right?
You do realise that your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, is not a logical statement, and makes it appear as if you are incapable of rational thought, right?
Actually, what is taught in Yeshiva has rarely been normative Judaism. As a matter of fact, only someone living in the 20th/21st century who has been to yeshiva could be so ignorant as to even think that for a moment.
Most Judaism has historically existed and been practiced outside of the walls of Yeshivot (arguably going back to pre-mishnaic times), yet you would claim that none of that qualifies as Judaism?
But unless you’re a rav and really know the halchos around it, you’re not capable of judging that according to Judaism. There are plenty of Rabbeim that say shaking hands in the workplace is a needed thing, and there are others who are more strict. Within the context of this discussion, Shomer Negiah here is more focused on the attitude “I’m not shomer negiah, that’s not really a halacha, I’ll touch whoever I want at parties.”
IMO It’s better than the kids that are shomer in public and not in private. But honestly, it would do these kinds of kids best to actually learn halachos. I have more respect for someone who knows what they’re not doing than someone who says X is stupid when they haven’t done any research into the topic.
Rabba,
Beware of the workplace handshake. Kif from Futurama got pregnant by touching Lila’s hand 🙂
Thats partially true, but before it was confirmed that it was Leela it could have just as easily have been Zap’s brood. So are we not, too, supposed to shake men’s hands? Or share toilets? I think it was the uncle or something.
Fortunately, halacha isn’t based on Futurama, otherwise aliens might be considered arayos as well.
One shudders to contemplate how Dr. Zoidberg came to look like a lobster!
Thats partially true, but before it was confirmed that it was Leela it could have just as easily have been Zap’s brood. So are we not, too, supposed to shake men’s hands? Or share toilets? I think it was the uncle or something.
Fortunately, halacha isn’t based on Futurama, otherwise aliens might be considered arayos as well.
One shudders to contemplate how Dr. Zoidberg came to look like a lobster!
there is defference between touching Derech Chiba – in a loving way, and touching in proffesional way – handshake. The more u avoid touch the better, but there is room for liniancy in proffesional touching, no heter for kissing and hugging though
It needs to be Derech Chiba, for the “touch” to be forbidden. Shaking a hand for business reasons (for instance) without lingering is not forbidden according to the guidelines. Dovid Hamelech is responsible for the prohibition against unmarried women going to the Mikvah. The purpose was that the Halacha on the books, rightfully mentioned earlier is about Niddah, which people followed closely. However as long as they went to the Mikvah they were leading a somewhat Licentious lifestyle. In order to curb this behavior he ruled against the Mikvah in order to incentivize the masses not to behave inappropriately therefore setting the mores of a social standard not necessarily pertaining directly to Halacha.
But, it was OK for him to bone Batsheva’?
As they say, if you have the gold, you make the rules.
Also, your logic is flawed. You wrote “Niddah is an issur kareis, just saying.”, implying that touching a woman who is a niddah is also an issur kareit. That is utter and complete nonsense. Having sex with a woman who is a niddah is an issur kareit. The prohibition of touching such a woman is a simple geder.
I never said touching was an issur kareis. It is possible you misinterpreted what I wrote.
Actually, there are poskim that rule that touching the opposite gender b’derech chiba is yehereg v’lo yavor.
Wish I could remember the source but it was a t’shuva about a man and a woman traveling in a carriage across the polish/russian border. The man is pretending that the woman is his wife, so that she can travel under his papers. They ask him to prove it by kissing her, or else they will kill him.
Rabba / Feivel,
It is a strict geder when it comes to women being touched “derech chiba”. Rambam rules that if one were to fall lovesick to the point of dying, he wouldn’t even be allowed to converse with the woman if she were behind a wall, lest the daughters of Israel become hefker.
Yeah, you my find poskim that are more lenient, but the general idea goes to show how strict a geder can become.
Shomer negiah was put in place as a geder for derech chiba touching. Business handshakes don’t fall under derech chiba unless the guy or gal have crushes on each other.
I can see how some women might be offended, but most would respect your decision if it’s religion based, especially if you’re visibly frum.
Look maybe that is your opinion but there are poskim which disagree with you.
Feivel,
Surely, a guy that feels up his girlfriend is transgressing more than one doing a business handshake, just my opinion.
I leave it up to the poskim to argue this one out, as I’m no rabbi.
:-/ this would depend on how you look at it.
The one feeling up his girlfriend is probably doing other prohibitions other than just the touching.
Either way this type of logic does not justify the hand shake. If both are forbidden by halacha… they are forbidden by HASHEM.
Feivish,
Handshakes weren’t forbidden by Hashem. It was recent poskim that did so, and I don’t think all poskim agree that it’s actually an aveirah. Very different from derech chiba.
There is actually a machlokes rishonim on that very point. The Rambam held that touching a nidda would be ossur per Torah law, as it is included in the words “lo sikravu.” Other rishonim held that is would only be ossur per rabbinic law. Either way it is ossur, absent some heterim (shelo bederech chiba, osek bemelachto, etc.).
TRS – It is forbidden for a woman to go to Mikveh without being married properly.
Is this really true? What if a woman wants to go to the mikvah, say, before Yom Kippur?
Is she going under the conditions which would enable her to cease being a niddah? No. So yes, I should have clarified my remark.
Well David, it really depends. Read this and tell me what you think, then read it again: http://mechon-mamre.org/i/5121.htm
The real criteria are:
Does it lead to gilui arayot? Specifically, one of the various biblicaly forbidden relationships, including according to the Rambam sexual relations outside marriage?
Is it “Derech Taavah v’hana’a”? Are you fulfilling a desire or deriving pleasure from it?
If the physical contact doesn’t meet those criteria, then it’s likely not forbidden. I’m guessing that this is the reason many Rabbi’s ( even Charedi ones ) allow shaking the hand of the opposite sex in cases where not doing so might cause offense.
I just want to point out, that in literally hundreds of encounters during the course of my life, never, not even on one occasion was any women offended that I didn’t shake her hand. If you smile and say “Pardon me but my religious beliefs forbid me from touching any women that I am not married to” no one gets offended by that.
The only people I can see getting offended are certain liberal feminist Jews that cause it to be a self fulfilling prophecy.
And back then, most MO (even “Haredi”) people were unaware that a married woman covering her hair is halacha, not minhag, and many didn’t do it. The ignorance of the 50s in a weak state of Judaism in the world isn’t an excuse for being lax about halacha now. As mentioned before, there are a million halachas you break before you even come to worrying about Shomer Negiah. Whether you are “shomer” or not is irrelevant because if you’re worrying about it, you have other things to fix first.
Exactly. Just because 80% of world Jewry doesn’t keep Kosher doesn’t mean we don’t have to.
No, actually it not. It’s Minhag – specifically, if the husband doesn’t care, the woman doesn’t have to cover her hair. If he does care, warns her, and she doesn’t cover it, then he can divorce her without giving the ketubah. It all depends on the husband.
WHAT hair covering used and HOW MUCH is completely minhag, sure, but a married woman covering the hair is all over halachic literature as mandatory, and pretty strongly mentioned in the Torah itself (Mentioned just the other week in the case of the Sotah, part of her embarrassment is forcing her to remove her hair covering). Forgetting that, the Gemara in kesubos is clear that a married woman can’t go out anywhere with her hair uncovered, and Shulchan Aruch in Evan HaEzer talks about it being Erva and that it halachically must be covered to show no more than a tefach. If that’s not halacha, I’m not sure what you think is.
Do you let your wife out of the house more than twice a month? Do you speak to married women, ever?
Does your daughter go to a school where she learns Torah?
Do you fail to put on Tefillin during Chol HaMoed? ( this is a d’oryta by the way )
The point is that not everything that once was halacha is stay halacha forever. Hair covering is a Rabbinic gader against giluy arayot ( Daat Moshe ) and a Minhag Bnot Yisrael regarding tzniut. I have discussed this with Rabbi’s and know of numerous Sephardic and Yeminite Orthodox Rabbi’s here in Israel who hold that it is not required.
Many things are relativistic to community standards. For instance, Rambam states explicitly in the Mishneh Torah that the permissibility of a man shaving his genitals is relative to community standards.
Why bring this up? The Askanazim, many of whom claim hair covering is something d’oryta with mystical significance ( i.e. that it is inherently forbidden from the Torah and chok, like para aduma ) allow the wearing of wigs as a head covering. Sepharadim on the other hand generally forbid the wearing of wigs and encourage the bandana / cloth style hair coverings. Why? Because hair covering is a Rabbinic gader meant to indicate that a woman is married when she goes out in public. Why was it customary for single women to also cover their hair when going to a public place like the shuk? Because she would then look like a married woman and then the Muslims wouldn’t feel free to rape her. This is also the reason female US soldiers have military issue burqua’s in Saudi Arabia for when they go off base.
However today in western society hair covering is not the generally accepted method of indicating that a woman is married, wearing a wedding ring is. In fact, if a woman goes out of her house ( sinner ! ) in a western country then it’s really more important for her to wear a wedding ring than a head covering.
In relation to the use of the word ervah, it simply means something which could lead to forbidden sex. According to Rambam one of the negative mitzvot related to giluy arayot is to not perform any action which might lead to forbidden sex. In his time showing hair meant you where available, thus it was forbidden. Today it doesn’t mean anything.
http://www.urimpublications.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=UP&Product_Code=hr
Intriguingly, editor Lynne Schreiber’s opening essay notes that in three “serious halachic communities of a century or more ago Lithuania, Morocco and Rumania women did not cover their hair at all.” Schreiber promptly busts one “popular revisionist perspective,” that Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik was upset that his wife did not cover her hair. She was, Schreiber says, from Lithuanian background, and in fact “individuals who spoke personally with Rabbi Soloveitchik about the matter of hair covering attest to his insistence that his wife’s practice of not covering her hair was, in fact, halachically sound, although no one will go on the record to quote the Rav’s reasons in part because he apparently swore them to secrecy.”
Schreiber adds that no former students of the Rav would go on the record for her book, for fear that haredi leaders would annihilate their rabbinic careers. However, that omission is more than compensated for by her footnote listing halachic authorities who ruled in writing “that there is no obligation for a woman to cover her hair in a society where modest women generally do not.” These include the 19th-century Iraqi rabbi Ben Ish Hai, the most popular Sephardi posek before Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.
“It it really taken less seriously today? Yes & no. A couple of hundred years ago among traditionalist Jews, the roles of men & women were different, and social interaction was much more limited (though much less limited than in charedi cirlcles today.) So negiah wasn’t an issue. It just wasn’t something that would come up normally so didn’t need to be guarded against.”
They didn’t even have a word for it back then! As I’ve stated several times before, the word “negiah” is never found (in the sense that it’s used here) in the gemara or any of the poskim. This meaning of the word was introduced in popular speech in the last few decades (possibly by NCSY).
“Shmirat negiah”
Thanks for proper Dikduk.
That was in response to Bar Bar Chana calling this Shmirat Negi’a.
Why do my comments appear in the wrong places?
Because we are not Taliban.
I have spoked to some RWMO who are shocked, SHOCKED that a frum man would shake the hand of a woman in the workplace, or even consider a kiss hello (chas veshalom, chas veshalom).
This obsession over speration of the sexes is so destructive, i dont think the frummies can even see it.
It’s a worthless compulsion.
Hahaha @ “Breaking shomer negiah is more of a lease agreement.”
For me, it was something that really just happened. It never even crossed my mind that I would touch a guy before marriage. All of a sudden, on a long and romantic date with my later-to-be-husband, the kissing started. And omg once it started, it was like, how can we stop it? We both felt guilty and would try for time to stop but it always just happened again. I think the enticingness and incredible passion that we felt at the time just didn’t measure up to ‘it says in some book somewhere that you aren’t really supposed to be doing this’. Finding out afterward that this was somewhat common did make me feel better. We never had sex before marriage and I would not advocate that to anyone. But truthfully, I look back on the make-out sessions that we had during our engagement and have very fond memories….
I wonder how many people who were shomer are now gonna NOT be. 😀
Actually Heshy plenty of non-Orthodox Jews keep some laws of kashrut but not at “Orthodox” standards. For example they might keep separate dairy and meat pots and pans and dishes. But rather than searching for a can of corn with a heksher on it they will read the ingredients on the can. That was how we kept the Jewish co-op kitchen on my college campus. I thought that was what keeping a kosher kitchen always entailed until my friends who grew up MO told me otherwise and I learned how to search for hekshers and the importance of avoiding Triangle-K products.
My family, on the other hand, consists of Italian Jews who think of proscuitto as its own food group, so the fact that I refrain from eating pork in addition to not eating bread during Passover makes me Very Religious. Mind you those are really the only kashrut rules I follow!
Guess what, that’s what **everyone** did up until all the kashrut cartels started operating about 100 years ago. Here’s something that will shock you – you can eat food cooked in a gentiles house on their treif pots and pans as long as the ingredients are kosher. You’re allowed to assume that 24 hours have passed since they last used and cleaned the utensils meaning that their treif pots are now parve. Straight out of Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah. I would of course caution you to look it up yourself to check for any “gotcha’s”.
the gotcha is that we only rely on 24 hours passing if the food was already cooked.
there is a discussion whether we may view the gentile’s having already cooked the food to sell as a bidieved circumstance or not. It seems we can.
Actually it’s what “everyone” did, even when the hechsher organizations operated, and it was fine, until 30-40 years ago when food product ingredients went from relatively regular to today when you couldn’t decipher half the ingredients without a chemical encyclopedia, not to mention the million other problems.
Exactly. When you look at ingredients things aren’t what they might sound like. Like one time there was new brand of cheese flavoured chips, I read the ingredients and they seemed fine. Then I went online on the website of those chips and found out what it meant by “enzymes” was from pork. Another thing is a lot of drinks have red dye number something which is made from beetles. A lot of these fancy chemicals that didn’t used to be around are why hechshers are necessary.
go to kashrut.org
Negiah exists purely because it’s assumed that we have no self-control, and any touching will obviously lead to sex. My girlfriend and I tried it for several months, and we found it incredibly difficult. We have plenty of self control: we don’t have sex or even make out. but just the simple things like holding hands makes the relationship so much more meaningful. I don’t get how any couple ever stays together without touching at all.
Not only sex but also inappropriate thoughts and actions when you should be learning Torah, that’s the line anyhow, are part of the reason negiah is in place. In the ideal Torah world, you only date with the express point of getting married (obviously the younger they got married the easier that was) and soon not years down the line. Regardless, it’s not only about not having sex, and it’s not about you personally.
Negiah isn’t ideal for secular society because secular ideas of what’s good doesn’t always match up with what Torah thinks so of course they conflict.
another thing; being or not being shomer negiah is really just another rung on the ‘interaction with people of the other gender ladder’. Sure its a lot more cotraversial and fun to talk about, but its really just another step in that intergender relationship interaction. Some men feel its halachically wrong to even look at or talk with women. Some think touching is really fine as long as its not sex. (could be some even think sex is just fine though I doubt anyone frum would admit that). And there’s a whole lot in the middle. So its not like a clear cut ‘i do this even though its against halacha’. Theres a lot more on the discussion board here.
If everyone wore gloves things would be so much easier. You wouldn’t have to worry about breaking negiah by shaking hands. You also wouldn’t have to worry about diseases as much like swine flu and whatnot.
..and condoms too I guess.
Hahahah!! =P
This sounds just like Christianity. Christians believe human nature is against God from day one and it is impossible to live without committing sins. No person is capable of actually keeping all the laws of the Torah, no matter how hard they try and it is the barest minimum to get into heaven to keep every single observance. God had mercy on mankind and provided a sacrifice of His own son, and acceptance of that sacrifice is how people believe they can be forgiven permanently. The laws are meant to encourage love and respect for God and just life in general, but the laws longer have the power to count against people if they aren’t able to do everything.
Christians and Jews really do have a lot in common. Too bad we haven’t been the best of friends.
*facepalm*
It appears that the missionaries have discovered frum satire.
Hesh, block this guys IP address
Not meant to sound like a missionary. The strictness of the beliefs just reminded me of what Christians believe like. Sorry guys.
So you’re saying we are both organized religions with laws? Yes, yes we are. The big distinction here is you accept that you won’t observe the laws. We don’t, as is evidenced by the fact that the one law that people seem to accept not observing (which also happens to be one of the hardest to keep), is being called out by even what many consider to be one of the most liberal jewish authors/bloggers of our days. Get it?
You make an excellent point; however, I don’t think anyone could quite grasp the Jewish psyche better than a Jew (frum or not frum). =P
What’s wrong with missionaries? I’m down with a little religious debate action – isn’t that what we are doing here anyway.
I’m not sure how much Christians and observant Jews can actually speak to each other, let alone debate about religion.
It seems like we have commonalities, and it probably wouldn’t hurt us to know a little bit more about each other.
Can Christians and Jews be friends on frumsatire.net?
I will debate fairly if anyone is interested in talking with a Christian about beliefs. I’m not actually a missionary, I never went to school to be one. I’m an illustrator/graphic designer.
I tried a New Testament class this semester at my college and failed it miserably. My reading comprehension is too bad for actual missionary work.
Christianity in general is just shocking. It is hard to talk about the beliefs without sounding like a missionary. Judaism doesn’t require Non-Jews to keep the laws of the Torah anyway.
I was never Jewish at any point in my life, so I agree I wouldn’t understand the Jewish psyche as well as an actual Jewish person.
I decided a few years ago to study Judaism, almost to the point of converting to it. I believe it is important to understand Judaism and things that could possibly be offensive to Jews. Christians are so clumsy, they are offensive without meaning to be alot of the time. I might say things I don’t naturally agree with, just to see the reaction here. It is just meant to stimulate discussion. I never mean to hurt anyones’ feelings on purpose.
I just found this excellent post (date 2/23/2008) at lookstein.org:
I think the term “Shomer Negiah” is worthy of a sociological and etymological study, which may prove to be a fascinating case study.
As far as I am aware, the term has no halachic significance whatsoever, and was in fact invented by American Jewish teenagers, probably sometime in the 70s or early 80s. Several years ago, one began to see it in print in books of general Jewish interest (and later on, even in books aimed at a non-Jewish audience), but not yet in actual halachic literature. Today I have seen it in some informal halachic sources like internet responsa and the like; I wonder if and when it will ever enter into the mainstream of genuine halachic discourse. If it does, that will be a shame, because the term is actually inaccurate.
The Hebrew word “Negiah” means “touching”, and when people use this term in this context, they are of course referring to the prohibition that bans physical contact between members of opposite genders who are not married to one another. However, the term is not accurate because there are situations where “touching” is actually completely permissible (as in the case of a doctor or nurse performing a physical examination, taking pulse or blood pressure, etc.). Conversely, there are many forms of interaction that do not involve “touching”, but are nonetheless covered by the same halachic prohibition (for details, see Shulchan Aruch, Even Ha’ezer chapter 21). The correct halachic term (deriving from Vayikra 18:19 upon which it is based) is “kreiva la’arayot”. The law prohibits certain types of “approaching” or “coming close” to a person of the opposite sex. Often, but not always, this involves touching – but the touching in and of itself is not what is prohibited.
I recall, many years ago, hearing an anecdote that told of a group of teenagers who had the opportunity to meet with Rav Soloveitchik, zt”l. The story went that he told them they could ask him about any topic they were interested in, and they asked him to speak about “Negiah”. Purportedly, he was confused and had no idea what they were talking about, as to him that term was only relevant in the esoteric laws of Tum’ah and Kodshim! I was told that once someone explained to him what they meant by that term, he laughed and explained the concept of “issur kreiva la’arayot” to them.
By the way, when I was a kid, the term was “Issur Negiah”, or simply
“Negiah”. I only began hearing the term “Shomer Negiah” (sometimes
abbreviated simply as “Shomer” – because after all, we all know what we are talking about!) perhaps 5 or 6 years ago. I imagine that the addition of the word “Shomer” at the beginning is simply meant to differentiate those who keep this law from those who do not, as in the case of businesses that advertise themselves as “Shomer Shabbat”.
Rabbi Alan Haber
Director
Michlelet Mevaseret Yerushalayim
I just found an excellent post by Alan Haber (dated 2/23/2008) on the lookjed list about the origin of the term “shomer negiah”:
http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,16761,16771#msg-16771
“As far as I am aware, the term has no halachic significance whatsoever, and was in fact invented by American Jewish teenagers, probably sometime in the 70s or early 80s…I recall, many years ago, hearing an anecdote that told of a group of teenagers who had the opportunity to meet with Rav Soloveitchik, zt”l. The story went that he told them they could ask him about any topic they were interested in, and they asked him to speak about ‘Negiah.’ Purportedly, he was confused and had no idea what they were talking about, as to him that term was only relevant in the esoteric laws of Tum’ah and Kodshim! I was told that once someone explained to him what they meant by that term, he laughed and explained the concept of ‘issur kreiva la’arayot’ to them.”
Just my two cent here…
I grew up in co-ed jewish school & was shomer negia – though not for lack of trying 😉
After yeshiva & college and then dating I got engaged. Being shomer negia when engaged is tough – even though I always had been. There was a time when we were up late one night and extreemly tired, her head did come to rest on my shoulder momentarily – THAT was the extent of the touching we had. She was saying that she was told by many of her friends that many aren’t shomer negia when engaged – I wasn’t going to be swayed by that “everybody-else-does-it” argument.
Shomer Negia is possible and its all about self control.
Actually, once you are engaged the laws get stricter, because it is assumed that the temptation increases. For example, it becomes problematic if you are both invited by the same family for Shabbos, generally one of you will have to sleep in a different house.
Is being shomer negiah rational or even possible if a Jew is not planning on getting married in the near future? I can understand how not touching a member of the opposite sex makes sense if you’re going to get married before age 20 or something, but otherwise it seems to me like a form of sexual repression that will do more harm than good. I think it is more of the changing norms of marriage, careers, and gender roles that makes shomer negiah a more “flexible” issue, so to speak.
ps. I know what you mean, Heshy, about Kosher being a non-negotiable thing, but some Jews do have their own way of keeping kosher. For example, I don’t eat pork or seafood but I don’t separate dishes, just my way of keeping kosher (though I’m not what you would really consider frum… )
If all your dishes are glass you wouldn’t need to separate them anyhow (maybe you’re more frum than you thought lol).
There is only the Torah’s way of keeping Kosher.
Your way is not kosher at all.
🙁
Esther – I’m glad you’ve decided to reevaluate the Torah way of life based on its own merits, not on the duplicity or human failings of people who have hurt you in the past. We all need to keep in mind that our words and actions affect not only ourselves, and our own individual relationships with G-d, but everyone around us. I can only hope and pray that something I’ve done in my life has influenced one person to come closer to Torah, and not – G-d forbid – to go away from it.
The yetzer hara for justification is very strong.
Humans are great at rationalizing their problems away.
Be Shomer Negiah. All arguments against it are just your yetzer hara, and I think you have to admit that.
Except for the argument that “shomer negiah” is found in no text more than a century old and is a misapplication of the actual halacha regarding arayos (read Issurei Biah 21:1). If you actually ever learnt halacha, rather than have all your information based on what someone with an agenda claimed to be halacha, then I think you have to admit that.
Personally I think it’s problematic if the main reason you’re getting married is that you just can’t wait to touch each other anymore. What if after a few months of marriage when you’re not as obsessed with negiah anymore, you realize that they weren’t really the right person for you and you were totally blinded by the fact that you just really wanted to kiss them?
If a single girl goes to the niddah, what other Torah objection is there? Please don’t give me gezeirahs.
Mikvah*