The walls in my yeshiva dorm were painted white, thus one of the favorite places to stash cigarettes was to tape them outside of the package to the wall. It was a strange practice, made even stranger when those same folks would take the cigarette off the wall, tuck it behind their ear and tell the dorm councilor they were going down the block to CVS, when in reality they would go past CVS, find a dumpster and go smoke behind it. Then you had the kids who kept their cigarettes in their freezers, shoes, cereal boxes and other regular stuff that was located around the room. In fact, cigarettes were kept in pretty much the same places that porn was kept and I always wondered if it was really worth the trouble.
To this day I have never smoked a cigarette, not one puff on purim, not one drunken puff in the bathroom as a 12 year old, nothing, I didn’t even smoke weed until I was 27, so I am not what you would call a smoker, but I always wondered about the Yeshiva smoking culture. I used to think that in order to truly be yeshivish you had to smoke, it was what those kids who wore white shirts and black pants did for fun, they smoked cigarettes, made barbecues between sedarim and went to casinos during out shabosim.
I could never stand the smell of cigarette smoke, it always nauseated me somewhat, it still does, but when you got called into the Rosh Yeshivas office you couldn’t make that excuse. He was what you may call a smokestack, constantly puffing on a cigarette while telling others not to smoke, I never understood how one could be a true role model by telling someone not to do what they were doing themselves. You may say that he knew it was a bad thing, but you see, he was telling the high school guys not to smoke, it was merely an age thing – not the age 18 thing by the way, considering the fact that some beis medrish guys were under 18 yet afforded the privileges of smoking.
As far back as I can remember, there has been a debate about smoking. Like most debates, it’s the modern orthodox versus the frum. The modern orthodox rant about smoking and its harm and the frum say that the yeshiva guys need a way to relax and masturbating kills millions of Jews and smoking will just kill one and maybe exposed to the second hand smoke – it’s cool to smoke to relieve stress.
People have been bugging the Rabbis to ban smoking for sometime, but that’s obviously a slippery slope. Could you imagine a rabbinical ban on transfat, alcohol, cholesterol and gas guzzlers? That means no one could slurp the gefilte fish jelly out of the jar, eat kishke, make Kiddush or shuttle their 13 children in one car, that would seriously inhibit the ability of the frum community to take care of itself.
I doubt the rabbis will ever seriously tackle the issue of smoking within the frum community. Part of me wants to say it isn’t so bad anymore, but the second I start hanging around my yeshiva mates again, I realize that as a non-smoker I’m the odd man out.
For some reason I have a feeling that Wolfish Musings or Honestly Frum has spoken of this topic before – it’s totally their type of thing…
Its on its way out (albeit slower than general society) Ner yisroel bans smoking inside any of their buildings although allows it outdoors, there are tops 20 people who can still be found smoking, and even they do so discreetly behind the dorm. Lakewood is slightly behind, and officially bans smoking in dorms although this isnt as strongly adhered to. However smoking in the beis is gone, and the number of smokers doesnt come close to what it was even 5 years ago
I’m really glad to hear there’s progress. It’s a horrible addiction, clinically demonstrated to be much harder to break than heroin or cocaine, on a par with meth. End-stage lung cancer, COPD or emphysema are horrible ways to die. The idiots who say “I’ve got to die. Might as well be cancer” has never seen what they do to a person.
Tobacco is the only consumer product which will kill you if used as directed. I hope the Orthodox rabbinate gets together and declares it assur as a form of (slow) suicide.
Having done a shiur on Shmirat Guf for our synagogue’s Mens Club and having spent eight years as an in-hospital physician at the VA where literally every day included at least one person on my census with lung cancer, where I pushed the chemotherapy myself, and most days with one or more patients with disabling emphysema or chronic bronchitis, the two famous rabbinical positions are of considerable interest by their divergent reasoning. The first is that of Reb Moshe Feinstein who disallowed public smoking but permitted private smoking, citing the verse that we skip on Rosh Hodesh Hallel that “HaShem protects the simple.” In 2006, the Halacha committee of the RCA recommended that private smoking be regarded as assur. The point of contention was the inevitability of tissue damage or disability. When Reb Moshe made his ruling, everybody had an Uncle Louie who smoked unscathed, dying in his 90’s of something unrelated. By this millenium, there is sufficient biopsy evidence and sophisticated lung function testing available to conclude that at least microsc0pic damage is inevitable, therefore the practice assur.
The progress is heartening. I disagree with a lot of things the very Orthodox say and do. I wouldn’t wish those fates on anyone. Better they should live to 120 and have a chance to come around to other ways of thinking 🙂
masturbating kills million of jews. smoking kills one. that has got to be the best line EVER
Does that mean you are allowed to masturbate while your wife is pregnant? Or should you impregnate others?
Don’t even get started on the Family Purity laws. They get Chiroptera-Scat Crazy pretty quickly. Go (or don’t if you’re wise) to sites like “Guard Your Eyes” which proclaim that masturbation is worse than murder and make young boys feel guilty about nocturnal emissions.
Some of the stuff is custom. Some makes sense. Much is ancient and outdated weirdness, a mishmash of Middle Eastern and European superstitions. The majority as near as I can tell is the personal quirks of thousands of years of legal scholars with a talent for making an awful lot of stew from one oyster.
In all fairness, a lot of the weirder stuff is part of the modern obsession with Saudi-style gender segregation. There is a rich and sometimes richly wise tradition buried under the present day psychosis.
As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time at guard your eyes, I must say that your portrayal of the site is completely off base. The site does NOT say masturbation is murder, and SPECIFICALLY says NOT to feel guilty (EVER) about nocturnal emissions. Encouragement is presented in a completely relaxed and nonjudgmental manner. I often agree with the things you write, but you tend to over-dramatize, and in this case it seems you have completely misunderstood the goal and style of the Guard Your Eyes website.
P.S.
Great line Heshy!
I know. That’s one of the funniest lines Heshy’s ever come up with.
Love the masturbation line.
What amazes me is how so many poor Jews can afford a couple pack a day habit. Even if you go to the Reservation and get your cigs tax free it’s still expensive. If you buy them legally it’s what, at least five bucks a pack. Say a couple thousand a year.
For that price you could get a metric butt-load of chickens, pay the shochet to slaughter them, and have meat every Shabbos. Or buy enough live minks to make shtreimels for every one of your male relatives.
Just FYI in the city (that would be NYC Heshy 😉 ) its almost $15.00 a pack now something like $11-$13!
12 x 365 x 1.5 = $6570
Wow. Buy the chickens, a couple cows and two used chest freezers. Have kosher meat a couple times a week plus your regular food budget.
Drug addiction is expensive.
Addicts have no concept of value.
What was/is the yeshiva brand of choice?
I remember way back when I was in seminary the Badatz put out a calendar and one of the months featured Kent cigarettes (I think, could have been L & M). It’s one thing not to assur smoking. It’s another to actually endorse it.
I personally think smoking is horrible but to assur it is no good. People will just do it anyway due to addiction and then everyone is doing an aveira so how is that better?
Heshy, thanks for the mention, I am not sure if I ever wrote about it but I might have mentioned it. I agree fully, knowing what we know about the dangers of smoking it is simply dumb that these people have not figured out how bad smoking is for you. Smoking has been banned by some of the so called gedolim but like the internet and other things that might be an inconvenience it has gone whole ignored. Fish and water people worry about but things that can actually kill you are OK for some reason. It’s messed up.
Invisible bugs in water and mis-characterized nematodes in fish aren’t a physical addiction. It’s easy to buy a filter or pay more for your lox. Stopping smoking is incredibly difficult.
If I’m not mistaken, Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski has written on the subject. His basis is his interpretation of the RaMBaM’s interpretation of “VeChai BaHem” in which he prohibits ANYTHING that is mekalkel the guf. He also prescribes working out, eating healthy, getting a good night’s sleep…So according to Rabbi Dr. Twerski, if the RaMBaM were alive today and was aware of the evidence of the harms of smoking, he’d definitely be against it.
He was a doctor. They’ve been trying to get people to eat right, sleep right and exercise since at least Hippocrates and Galen.
Exactly. And what better way to do it than to make it Halakha?
The force of anti smoking Nazis is strong at this site.
If it were heroin which is less addictive and much less deadly would you whinge about the “anti smack Nazis”?
No? Why not?
i would. the war on drugs is a disaster! prohibition causes more problems than it solves. you’re assimilated with american puritans. 🙁
Yes i would. I don’t think it’s wrong controlling anything that could be called” victimless crime”. Would it be used with moderation, good. If it’s used harmfully with an exessive measure let darwin sort out these people (i don’t really like to use darwin since ia’m not atheist but you got the point). Especially since the Torah does not prohibit usage of plants.
Really the toah doesnt permit the usage of plants? Well I have this delicous hemlock (a plant) cocktail is it mutar for me to drink it? For that matter i have a rope made of vine (again a plant) am I allowed to hang myself with it?
Besdides Smoking can hardly be called a victimless crime, it is harful to people around the smoker who are forced to inhale second hand smoke, furthermore it places a huge financial burden on our health care system, a burden we are all forced to carry.
Not to mention the financial burden on the family and the extra work – usually for the male smoker’s wife – of cleaning the air and scrubbing smoke stains.
passive smoking is a myth. the who anti-smoking propaganda admits 2nd-hand smoke is harmless. non-smokers who are married and co-habit with smokers for decades have no increased risk of cancer or any other health problem, so you are not in danger from contact.
the health risks of smoking are over-rated. but smokers pay bilions of dollars tax on cigarettes, more than enough to cover their medical expenses. actually most of the risk is genetic, so you should ‘ban’ everybody with inferior genes. you should force everybody to smoke and create a master-race of super-puritans immune to lung-cancer. meanwhile smoking bans drive clubs and pubs out-of-business and health-nuts plan to live for 100 years a burden on the state.
americans are weird, you just ‘ban’ anything you don’t like and expect people to obey.
“the extra work – usually for the male smoker’s wife – of cleaning the air and scrubbing smoke stains.”
:-/
this is really not a concern of government, or your concern. besides, women also smoke.
You’re right about the second hand smoke. My grandpa died in 1984 of lung cancer at age 69. He was a very heavy chainsmoker. By logic my grandma should also be dead. She’s still plugging away at 90.
true, death is inevitable but not by smoking. all my grandparents/uncles smoked and none of them had cancer – and none of them were hit by a bus either — aha, The Science shows smoking protects against being hit by buses! (that’s ‘irony’ btw americans)
simple question: Do you think smoking is
a. good for your health
b. bad for your health
c. has no effect?
Same choices for second hand smoke
persistent smoking increases the risk of certain health problems, like lung cancer by 700% , which is not as much as it sounds. the health problems are over-hyped for propaganda but the risk is real. susceptability is mostly genetic. personally i enjoy smoking so for me it is worth the risk.
2nd hand smoke is a lie, this lie discredits the whole anti-smoking ‘movement’. — also, the kind of people who would form a movement to interfere with the personal enjoyment of other people have their own serious problems. SERIOUSLY, this is a medical condiion, the taxpayers should pay for your treatment.
persistent smoking increases the risk of certain health problems, like lung cancer by 700% , which is not as much as it sounds. the health problems are over-hyped for propaganda but the risk is real. susceptability is mostly genetic. personally i enjoy smoking so for me it is worth the risk.
2nd hand smoke is a lie, this lie discredits the whole anti-smoking ‘movement’. — also, the kind of people who would form a movement to interfere with the personal enjoyment of other people have their own serious problems. SERIOUSLY, this is a medical condiion, the taxpayers should pay for your treatment.
why would they interfere with personal enjoyment, when there is no health risk? Im excited to hear your paranoid propaganda
In my own opinion, smoking is harmful to the SMOKER. My grandpa died a horrible, prolonged death. His brothers also died of smoking related cancers. Second hand smoke however isn’t nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
what extensive research. Im surprised all studies arent discarded in favor of your opinion. Is the global average temperture rising? no need to measure just ask the other shim to look out his/her window.
“passive smoking is a myth. the who anti-smoking propaganda admits 2nd-hand smoke is harmless.”
I would love to see even one article/study that says this. It doesnt have to be from a reputable publication, can you please provide a link?
Thanks
all reputable studies show this. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/326/7398/1057 http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_article/7085
i posted some links i guess they are suspected spam, ask google about enstrom and kabat and read spiked-online, a reputable website.
all really?
“WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control” (PDF). World Health Organization. 2005-02-27. http://www.who.int/tobacco/framework/WHO_FCTC_english.pdf. Retrieved 2009-01-12. “Parties recognize that scientific evidence has unequivocally established that exposure to tobacco causes death, disease and disability”
“The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General”. Surgeon General of the United States. 2006-06-27. http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke. Retrieved 2009-01-12. “Secondhand smoke exposure causes disease and premature death in children and adults who do not smoke”
“Proposed Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant”. California Environmental Protection Agency. 2005-06-24. http://repositories.cdlib.org/context/tc/article/1194/type/pdf/viewcontent/. Retrieved 2009-01-12
“Tobacco Smoke and Involuntary Smoking” (PDF). International Agency for Research on Cancer. 2004. http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol83/index.php. Retrieved 2009-01-12. “There is sufficient evidence that involuntary smoking (exposure to secondhand or ‘environmental’ tobacco smoke) causes lung cancer in humans”
You should use wikipedia more often, its great. It will help you find actual reputable studies
no, the increase is less than 200%, it is meaningless. ask wikipedia about “advocacy research”
I see so your nameless sources are the only ones that are acceptable. got it.
The surgeon general, WHO are all out to deprive you of harmless pleasures.
Did you actually read the words I wrote?
I didn’t say anything about the health effects. I was talking about the stains and smell.
i adressed this point: it is not your business if people want to stain their own house. the smell of other people’s houses is their wn concern.
Dude, you don’t have to be an atheist to accept Darwin. Don’t forget, Darwin himself was a devout Christian until the day he died and was NOT calling for the world to become Atheistic. I challenge you, READ On the Origin of Species before you go around bashing it and tell me what about it precludes God and Religion. The answer is NOTHING. It’s all about how you read it. In fact, there are plenty of theologians–Jewish, Christain, et al–who have systematized theories that are compatible with both God and Evolution.
Also, don’t forget that Evolution, like all things scientific, is constantly changing as scientists discover new things. There are some possible holes in the fossil records, such as the pre-Cambrian explosion, which may be a tiyuvta (to use the Yeshivish term) to Evolution. Scientists have their possible explanations, but they don’t all agree on one.
What he said. But I warn you, the process is a little different than what you’re used to.
There are no poskim. The purpose of learning is to enable you to come up with completely new things, not simply preserve past wisdom or interpret it for current issues. There’s no equivalent of Chumash, Mishnah, Gemara or Shulan Aruch.
Every scientist expects his or her work to be refined, overthrown or incorporated into something new. Darwin was a genius and careful researcher who revolutionized huge parts of biology and gave it its most powerful organizing principle. The world has moved on. His work is important historically but is 150 years behind the times.
If you want to read The Origin of Species or The Descent of Man just follow the links. A better place to start might be the extensive talk.origins FAQ
Just Say No
Im actualy pro smoking its a simple logical progression
(this is old but just in case here goes:)
The world would be a better place if there were less stupid people.
People who smoke are stupid because smoking kills.
Therfore: smoking is good because it makes the world a better place
It’s not a matter of being stupid. The tobacco companies’ internal documents show that they have just about zero chance of hooking adults. Their marketing strategy has been based on hooking minors for at least the last 30 years. Once you’re hooked your chances of quitting this incredibly addictive drug are very low.
What’s more, smoking doesn’t have immediate consequences. By the time the addicts die they have already bred and raised their children.
Excellent points.
The problem is that cigarettes are still legal.
Nazis? really?
That’s right. Godwin’s Law strikes again!
godwins law ALWAYS remains true. could be about a convo on computers. godwins always right
hitler was a notorious anti-smoker health-nut, you’re in good company.
a. you made that up
b. hitler loved mashed potatoes, do I have to give them up as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany
interesting thanks for the link my apologies for doubting you. The comparison still makes no sense and is offensive though.
and hitler loved commenting anonymously on blogs so we are all in good company
hitler liked to tell other people what to do, that was his problem. it is fine to dislike smoking, or mashed potato, or jews. it is not fine to force the world to conform to your preferences.
Wrong!!!! Hitler telling other people what to do was NOT his problem. Killing and persecuting Jews and other monorites was.
It is completly fine to force the world to avoid proven poisons, that poison people around them, and place a huge financial burden on all society
hitler was an authoritarian, authoritarianism is in general bad. the principle that people are free to choose for themselves is important. but actually, you can rage against this principle, we are free to choose whether YOU like it or not, you will never be in a position to force anybody to conform to your preferences. but it is inevitable if the government is allowed to enforce conformity, sooner or later you will be in a position of non-conformity and you will take the consequences you enforced on others. the government/king john may not ban smoking, IT IS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE.
passive smoking is a myth (invented by nazis!). smokers pay more in tax than the state spends on their up-keep – unlike frum jews btw. 🙂
according to you the government should ban certain foods or at least enfrce diets becase obesity is the biggest problem in america. they should ban sports because people will get hurt and require treatment. cars will definitely be banned. doctors constantly kill patients, hospitals will be banned – this will save the tax-payers-money! people might be hit by a bus, buses are banned. life is risk, they should lock everyody in a cell lined with cotton wool for their own protection. i mean kill people before they are born, if they live they will inevitably die, life is a health and safety risk.. ????
btw, there is more in common with nazi-ism, it is the idea that the state owns our bodies, also the petit-bourgeois obsession with hygiene and cleanliness, the persecution of out-groups and net-curtain morality… i hope you read the wikipedia article, it is very interesting
TO EACH THEIR OWN. life is short and should be enjoyed, smoking is enjoyable for some people. everything enjoyable has a risk.
“we are free to choose whether YOU like it or not, you will never be in a position to force anybody to conform to your preferences.” Wrong again! as a voting member of the AMA I plan to impose more of my evil schemes on all of you (insert maniacal evil laughter)
” unlike frum jews btw’ more stupidity. Most frum Jews pay there full share of taxes, and most do not get welfare, and ALL dont send their kids to public school, so we are deffinatly paying more than we receive (in comparison to the our tax brackets)
Your next paragraph made even less sense buses, sports and the like provide important functions other than death. Cigarettes while enjoyable, are proven to be poison. Whats more, they are harmful to those around them who do not choose to partake in them.
I actually agree that to each their own, and what you do is nobody elses concern (as long as it doesnt harm me). however those people should pay their health costs that can be attributed to their poor behavior out of their own pocket. dont want to wear a seat-belt? fine but when you go flying through the windshield why should all of us cover your hospital bill
Hitler also drank water, ate regular meals, wore clothes, used with silverware, read books, warmed himself with fire, went to a doctor when he was sick, got married and paid his bills.
By your standards Jews should be starving, naked, freezing, sickly, fornicating, illiterate deadbeats who fress with both hands.
Your attempts at argument really are pathetic.
if you don’t like my attempts, try slavoj zizek, john stuart mill, kant on enlightenment and freedom, and adorno on authoritarianism. or go look in the torah and see where god said ‘no smoking’.
found it!! Devorim (deuteronomy) 4:15 “venishmartem meod es nafshoseichem”
Only if you tell me where the Torah says no playing basketball on shabbos. Or how about where the Torah says we should wear yarmulkes? And only being allowed one wife (I’m told that takkanah has actually expired…)?
Along the lines of John here, “U’shemor et Nafshotaychem” can be applied to smoking ASSUMING we accept the ample evidence in the medical field that smoking is harmful. As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread, if the RaMBaM were alive today and had modern medicine at his disposal, he’d almost definitely say that smoking is against halakha (based on his interpretation of Shemirat HaGuf…)
And remember, the Torah is SUPPOSED to be a living book. Just because something’s not mentioned in the Torah, doesn’t mean it isn’t so. After all, by your “show me where it says this in the Torah” argument, we should be allowed to drive on shabbos, shouldn’t we?
Wait a minute. Hitler married Eva Braun?
That’s ridiculous. How would you feel if you had asthma and were sitting outside talking with friends and then some lowlife smoker comes over and starts blowing smoke all over the place and you started having trouble breathing? People like me have to deal with stuff like that all the time. Smokers are some of the most selfish insensitive assholes around.
i took great pleasure that the rabbis never busted me for smoking. I think thats what kept me smoking and now ive quit for over 3 years but with all the restrictions in the yeshiva world there has to be some liberties and personally i equate cigarettes with seat belts its a personal preference
At least masturbation doesn’t reek. Its just repulsive to see people doing that in public. Abortion doesn’t reek either. The procedure only kills one person after all. Many of those who are Pro Life view abortion is a cruel and barbaric act.
I think smoking is a lame ass excuse for wanting to relax. If you need to calm your nerves down then take up yoga or learn some breathing techniques. Smoking is a revolting habit and seeing cigarettes dangling out of peoples mouths epitomizes lack of class. It figures if that crowd dresses up like 1930 gangsters, they may as well smoke like them in order to look the part.
you’re totally wrong. proper posh people all smoke, it is classy. these mealy-mouthed anal health fads and obsesssion with cleanliness are embarrassingly lower-middle class. 🙁
i love the smell of smoke, i think smoking looks sexy. and there are worse smells created by teenage yeshiva boys 🙂
….this message brought to you by the Altria Group, owners of the Philip Morris Tobacco Company 😀
PROHIBITION era gangsters are cool. the puritans always lose.
If you need to take a stimulant to relax you aren’t relaxing. You’re staving off the first signs of withdrawal.
i hope not! smoking is super-cool and sexy. the health risks are over-hyped, ‘passive smoking’ is a total myth. these stupid health fads and commandments are a new secular religion for their empty lives and their anomic society.
ps- i’m not a yeshivah student but i buy cigarettes from chinnese smugglers, f*k the puritan health police!
www.
That picture of the two bochurs smoking is priceless…who owns the copyright to it? I think it would make a great avatar…
They should ban smoking as a chumra against breaking Shabbat.
A girl I knew who became BT once told me that there hardest part of becoming frum was not smoking on Shabbat because she was addicted and it was hard for her to go a day without smoking.
Bubba, could they use the nicotine patch on Shabbos as long as they put it on before Shabbos started, I wonder?
Maybe. I’ve heard of people putting smoke in bottles before Shabbat though.
Are you sure that’s not a bottle of djinn?
Hesh,I have never smoked either… for thesame reasons… I hate smokers actally I loose respect forfolks that do.. I am prejudice of iti guess. ..
Chasidus says smoking is good the smoke is spiritual… always reminded
me of native americans…
Smokers are either mamesh rude or ignorant I have true distain for the habit…
Native American use of tobacco was a lot different.
First, there weren’t any of the literally hundreds of added chemicals the tobacco companies use to addict you to their brand.
Second, it was a sometimes thing, surrounded with ritual. They weren’t drugging themselves every half hour with what the RJR papers called “A metered nicotine delivery system”.
What about that so called all natural American Spirit?
“Natural” doesn’t mean much. It’s certainly not certified Organic. Could well be loaded with the same addictive agents and extra poisons. And we’ll never know because those are proprietary trade secrets. Unlike almost every other consumable tobacco products don’t have to include ingredients.
And there’s still the question of how much and how often. From what I understand tobacco wasn’t something Native peoples used every day, let alone twenty or thirty times a day.
Classy. So you hate me.
Concerning something from months and months ago…
When you signed yourself “FrumGer” I thought you meant you were a member of the Gerer Hasidim, not a Ger
That’s right, Godwin’s Law strikes again.
That’s true, but the RaMBaM Was trying to establish this not just as eitzah tovah, mussar, et al., but as HALAKHA, ie that God COMMANDS us to take good care of our bodies. Given that, and that no bona fide doctor nowadays approves of smoking, if Maimonedes was alive today and had at his disposal the current Medical Science data, he would most PROBABLY consider it assur to smoke. According to one expert on the RaMBaM I know, he is also VERY against ever getting drunk, and those who try using him as an excuse to get drunk on Purim have grossly misinterpreted him!
AAAAH, never try to use a cellphone browser to post commens. This was supposed to be in response to A Nuran’s post about the Rambam being a doctor.
There are 440,000 smoking related deaths annually in the U.S.
Hey look, it might not be that pleasant to see yeshiva bochrim doing something the world looks down upon and sees as outright disgusting, (sort of like being rude), especially considering the idea that these Jews consider themselves to be the ‘most important’ and ‘most dedicated’ sect of our nation, but in all honesty, it’s the least of the evils.
Imagine how much worse it would be if gambling or girls would become the things yeshiva guys get involved with when they’re a bit more adventurous. (Very rarely do the more timid ‘naturally behave type’ yeshiva guys smoke).
This is compounded by the fact that the overwhelming majority of yeshiva smokers almost always quit completely once they get married.
Your right, it’s not pretty, but considering the options – it’s the best one. There needs to be at least some degree of ‘rebellion’ in many of todays teenagers, this is the most favorable of them, and sometimes the habit just sticks for a while.
Bottom line: Big deal.
Years back the Minnesota Department of Health had a couple great ads.
One showed a beautiful woman striding away from a bed with a look of utter contempt on her face. In bed an equally handsome man sat with his dejection matching her scorn. Then came the voiceover “It’s a medical fact. The more you smoke, the less you poke.”
The other was a montage of animals – cows, pigs, monkeys and a few other followed by a chicken, all with cigarettes. The caption “It isn’t any more natural for you than it is for them.”
Frankly, I’d be happier if the young men were into young women.
It’s natural.
They would make better choices when it came to marriage because they would be operating from knowledge instead of ignorance.
They wouldn’t marry too soon out of desperation to get laid, wrecking the lives of the poor girl and three or four children.
They would know how to act around women. Orthodox and formerly Orthodox women I know complain that young men in the community are completely ignorant and awkward.
They wouldn’t proposition random hookers and Gentile women as much. A couple recent news stories on “Johns Class” showed an inordinate number of kippot in the audience.
And many other things.
Yeah, yeah “Shomer Negiah”. That has evolved a lot, an awful lot, just in the last few decades. When my parents were teenagers there were dances and social events, yes among the Orthodox. They both dated socially in college and afterwards, and nobody thought it was immoral. By the bye, my mother reports that the only men she had to slap were the rabbinical students “All hands,” she says.
“Frankly, I’d be happier if the young men were into young women.
It’s natural. ”
Please forgive me, but are you nuts?!!
Natural? That’s your reasoning?
Should a cancer patient not take chemo because it’s “not natural”?
Is “natural” somehow more important than halacha and logic?
Do you really think that the yeshiva world would be a better place if the boys were involved in girls?
“They would make better choices when it came to marriage because they would be operating from knowledge instead of ignorance.”
I married out of ignorance and I’m very happy. Most of the people I know married out of ignorance and are happy. The amount of people who end up in trouble are equal in both societies – notwithstanding the ‘knowledge’ that all the mod-ox have.
“They wouldn’t marry too soon out of desperation to get laid, wrecking the lives of the poor girl and three or four children.”
What’s wrong with you? Do you really think this is something that happens often enough that you can say “they”?
“They would know how to act around women. Orthodox and formerly Orthodox women I know complain that young men in the community are completely ignorant and awkward.”
You are correct in their being generally awkward, but the price of correcting this is way too expensive. (I hope you’re not saying you think yeshiva guys are better off hanging out with girls and accumilating countless aveiros punishable by death – all just so that they should not be awkward with women…)
“They wouldn’t proposition random hookers and Gentile women as much. A couple recent news stories on “Johns Class” showed an inordinate number of kippot in the audience.
And many other things.”
So 100% of the population should suffer because of the .001% who are busy with hookers…
“Yeah, yeah “Shomer Negiah”. That has evolved a lot, an awful lot, just in the last few decades. When my parents were teenagers there were dances and social events, yes among the Orthodox. They both dated socially in college and afterwards, and nobody thought it was immoral. By the bye, my mother reports that the only men she had to slap were the rabbinical students “All hands,” she says.”
Are you conservative or something? Are you in denial about the Sinai thing? I don’t know which “orthodox” you refer to, but it certainly isn’t the one I came from. We’re obviously not on the same page.
You seriously need to be a little more open-minded if you can’t understand why anybody would choose smoking (often very lightly) for a few years as a better alternative than Krisus.
I’m a big believer in the big picture, and in being educated about the reality of the world we live in, and in doing what G-d really wants from us even if it doesn’t appear to be yeshivish….
but by totally disregarding their entire belief system, you have crossed the line of reason.
You should try to get your hands on old family or shul pictures. American Orthodox Jews of the 1930-50s didn’t dress like the earlier generations or the current generation.
You should try to get your hands on old family or shul pictures. American Orthodox Jews of the 1930-60s didn’t dress like the earlier generations or the current generation (especially the women).
Correction: After doing a bit of research, it seems that there was in fact a pretty widespread occurrence of these events, albeit not in my family.
Regardless, whether or not it was done or even the norm in the past – does not in any way make it right. Can the upcoming generations look back at us and determine that lashon hara is ok because we’re generally not careful with it?
“Shomer negiah” is not a made up yeshivish concept. It’s a halacha just like kashrus and shabbos. If your not prepared to commit your self to it’s obligations, so be it. But please don’t change the facts of right and wrong.
It’s a pair of words whose meanings have changed drastically back and forth over the centuries in response to local conditions, current fads and other agendas.
In large parts of medieval Europe Jewish boys who were betrothed to girls often moved with the future in-laws. Petting which didn’t lead to pregnancy was allowed between the future spouses.
In ancient Israel young women went up in the hills and danced at night to attract young men whom they wished to marry.
Old photos of Bukharin Jews show the men in fezzes and the women in hijab but no more and perhaps somewhat less covered up than their Muslim neighbors.
19th century Russian Jewish women who became “working women” out of economic necessity – for instance when their husbands were drafted for ten year hitches – were not ostracized. Elsewhere in European cities and towns observant Jews’ customs were all over the place, some more strict and some less, often mirroring the practices of the societies in which they were embedded.
In Ottoman Turkey a couple centuries ago same-gender purely physical relations within certain social bounds were common and accepted among Jews, Christians and Muslims They were publicly forbidden. Opposite-gender ones outside of marriage and the ever-common exploitation of servants and slaves were less acceptable.
Orthodox customs in Europe and North America were much less restrictive a generation or two ago than they are today. The customs of today’s neo-Romantic Orthodox are at least as restrictive as Salafist Muslims or the those prescribed by the Persian Ayatollahs.
All of these people were “shomer negiah” by the standards of their time and place. All would claim as loudly as you that their customs were traditional Torah-compliant Judaism.
I leave you with one of George Bernard Shaw’s best insights:
BRITANNUS (shocked): Caesar: this is not proper.
THEODOTUS (outraged): How!
CAESAR (recovering his self-possession): Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
from Caesar and Cleopatra
To your first point: Yep, ignorance is bliss: Don’t you wish you were a cow?
B) yes it does happen often.
C) You’re stupid. Actually it’s comical to listen to you. There is no price to pay for sleeping around a bit, other than STD’s or unwanted babies if you’re stupid enough not to wrap it up. Noones being punished by death, relax dude.
D) it’s alot more than that percentage. And as a technical point that would be 99.99 percent if there’s .001 who are into hookers.
AND THEN WTF WAS THIS? IS THERE NOONE ELSE WHO SEES THIS AS REMOTELY HYPOCRITICAL?
“You seriously need to be a little more open-minded if you can’t understand why anybody would choose smoking (often very lightly) for a few years as a better alternative than Krisus.
I’m a big believer in the big picture, and in being educated about the reality of the world we live in, and in doing what G-d really wants from us even if it doesn’t appear to be yeshivish….
but by totally disregarding their entire belief system, you have crossed the line of reason.”
“There is no price to pay for sleeping around a bit, other than STD’s or unwanted babies if you’re stupid enough not to wrap it up. Noones being punished by death, relax dude.”
So we’ve finally come to the determining factor of this argument. You don’t believe there is anything wrong with violating the Torah….
Well in case you were not aware (which seems to be the case), there are many people out there who do in fact believe that there is what to lose. Actually, this is a Jewish site, so I find it surprising that you can’t imagine why anyone would think so.
Like I said, your entitled to your beliefs, but you are not entitled to tell others what to think. And if others (who include most of your own ancestors) think that actions considered by the Torah to be punishable by death are worth refraining from, then recognize their belief, agree or disagree, and be on your way.
On the other hand, smoking will put an expensive tenacious monkey on your back. If you do it long enough it will kill you.
Gambling is even worse since it involves more of your brain’s reward circuits and more pleasant chemicals.
lol anti-smokers are so judgmental and moralistic!
Especially those of us who used to be smokers and still have many friends who smoke and plenty of them have tried to quit.
Smokers have the right to stink up their own clothes and kill themselves. But they have NO right to impose their stench or poison on anyone else.
you have no right to expect the world to revolve around you! you live in a society so you have to put up with the smell of other people and their annoying habits. if you can’t bear to be contaminated, go purify yourself in a cave in the desert! i agree with slavoj zizek about narcissistic american puritans.
personally, i like the smell of smoke. there are much worse smells created by teenage boys :/
How do you survive 25 hours without your disgusting stinking filthy habit on Shabbos?
I also like the smell of tobacco as a note in other scents such as incense. That said, it’s addictive, deadly, and makes one smell foul to non-smokers.
your right not to smell other people is less than the right of other people to smell however they want. your right not to be annoyed by the existence of other people doing something you don’t like is less than the right of other people to enjoy their ‘annoying’ habits. you need to relax, you should take up smoking
Don’t pat Lakewood on the back that much. Its the LAW! You can’t smoke in a public building. Why can’t this be the law in Israel too?
Cmon give credit where credit is do.Regardless of whether Lakewood is considred a public building, Lakewood had this rule a long time before the law went into affect (the law began april 2006, lakewood’s rule is at least 10 years old).
It is the law (in many places anyhow). Not that that matters. I’ve been standing in the central bus station. Huge “No Smoking” (in Hebrew) sign on a main pillar in the middle of the inside entrance. Yet, I’ll see a pack of teenagers (15-16) smoking underneath with a cop right next to them bumming a cigarette. In Israel, like many European countries, they have banned smoking for lip service, but in practice most people don’t really care and just keep smoking on due to the attitude (more important than the law).
hamas banned women smoking in public recently..
But what about the smoke produced when the women blow themselves up?
They like humus, can I still like humus?
And the owners of the cafes said they would ignore the order. So did the women the BBC interviewed.
excellent! fight the power, just like yeshiva bokhers!
That’s exactly the reason yeshiva guys smoke. Bec. they know the power doesn’t like it, but they can’t do anything about it because it’s ingrained in the culture. Everything else that’s fun is Ahssered by the Hanhala and can get you kicked out of Yeshiva.
Guess the image tag doesn’t work…
Here’s what it was pointing to
Nope not a Gerer Chossid- I probably wouldnt be on this site if I was… I’m a mix of MO with a twinge of Lubav chassidus & minhag….. typical convert -over kill on everything to make up for the years of goyishness… but cant go completly black hat yeshivish either…
Should I offer to send tax free cigs to fellow Jews? Most packs cost approx. $2.50 for the major brands here and I can put quite a few into a flat rate priority mail box.. I quite smoking over 35 years ago nd still wish I had one every once in a while.
You’d help Jews commit suicide?
As an avid non-smoker, I have always been disgusted by the yeshivah smokers. I don’t understand it. Why do they start? Who are they trying to impress? There are no girls around the beis medrash to be cool for. Are they emulating the cool guys? Too what end? Yeshivah guys can’t go around saying they don’t know that smoking is bad for them. They know all about it. They can read the warnings.