I was in Berkeley for shabbos and the scholar in residence was this Rabbi who tries to spread the “Jews should save the environment” gospel, which I’m a bit iffy on. I wondered what the point of having a Jewish environmentalist speak to a shul full of Jewish environmentalists was, the modern orthodox shul in Berkeley uses compostable forks made of corn for God sake and they have 4 different garbage cans – so I doubt his speach made any impact whatsoever on the shul.
He spoke about the Jewish responsibility to the environment, which I agree with, but many orthodox Jews don’t or they just don’t care and I was wondering about that. After I slept through half the speech I started thinking about frummies and the environment and how it makes no sense that they wouldn’t be more active in trying to save it.What that entails is up for a big debate, my theory is that buying local would make a huge difference, but who am I?
Then again, frummies tend to be right wing and somehow, somewhere along the line the right wingers decided to be against environmental movements and the lefties decided to be pro, so naturally many frum folks think that “believing” in global warming or trying to recycle are left wing agenda items and they refuse to be associated with the evil baby killing, drug using, gun banning, communist lefties.
I heard a pretty frum friend of mine say that “it’s all fun and games until Lakewood is under 20 feet of water, then they will wake up and realize that it shouldn’t just be treated as another political issue.” I don’t know about the science behind it, but I every orthodox person right or left who works in the science fields has told me that Global Warming exists and is a problem (at least for those living in the south)
So do Jews have any sort of responsibility to the environment? Should we try to be a light unto the nations when it comes to the environment? Or we do we just brush it off as another left wing immoral agenda?
frum people inherently disregard any earthly issues.
its an up-hill battle getting to heaven. no pun intended.
If you want my honest opinion, I think it is because of religion. They believe God will bail them out of this mess. But obviously this does not just apply to Orthodox Jews.
God doesn’t bail you out – you need to do your part, if God is bailing everyone out why do we worry about anything?
They would think that by personal dilemmas. But they don’t think God will let the world destroy itself.
Evangelical Christians used to feel the same way about environmentalism: indifferent at best, hostile at worst. Now there’s a nascent Evangelical ‘green’ movement asserting that caring for the Earth is a religious duty. After all, God enjoined stewardship over the Earth to Adam, Eve & their progeny …. Perhaps frum Jews would be amenable to the same argument.
In fact, I’ll quote some from the Wikipedia article entitled ‘Christianity and Environmentalism’ since all of the relevant scriptures cited are from the Old Testament:
“Beginning with Genesis 1:26-28, God instructs humanity to manage the creation in particular ways.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)
Adam’s early purpose was to give care to the Garden of Eden:
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. (Genesis 2:15)
Green Christians point out that the biblical emphasis is on stewardship, not ownership–that the earth remains the Lord’s (Psalm 24:1) and does not belong to its human inhabitants. Leviticus 25:23 states:
“The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants.”[1]
As a result of the doctrine of stewardship, Christian environmentalists oppose policies and practices that threaten the health or survival of the planet. Of particular concern to such Christians are Global warming, renewable energy, and all other practices that contribute to climate change or threaten to deplete natural resources. Many Christian environmentalists have broken with conservative political leaders as a result of these positions.[2]”
Noah seemed to be environmentally conscious, the biggest floor of the ark was reserved for garbage. Can you imagine how bad it smelled? If he were more likes today’s crowd, he would have dumped it all overboard.
The global warming yuppy advocates take the issue too far though. If the earth is warming enough to melt glaciers, then the water is also going to be evaporating at a faster pace, which will counter balance the effect. Simple grade 3 science. Water levels are down in most areas, so, if anything, global melting some glaciers is a good thing for most of the civilized world.
As for your corn based fork using rabbi, did anyone mention that they might be kitniyot?
“then the water is also going to be evaporating at a faster pace, which will counter balance the effect”
what gets evaporated comes down as rain. it doesn’t dissapear.
Shmul,
Good. Maybe it will rain in areas that are having droughts.
Or flood other areas (Bangladesh, the Netherlands…). What about seaside cities? What if a formerly dry area gets so much water now that their infrastructure can’t handle it and there’s cholera and other water-borne disease due to the flooding.
I think there’s not a whole lot we can do about it now but dismissing it is idiotic.
Mordechai,
There was plenty of flooding around the globe before global warming ever was an issue. The only reason it might look worse today is because of the population explosion in those areas.
What about all the current droughts and record freezing temps in Europe, Florida and the Soutwest last winter? I suppose that global warming as well?
Reminds me of Al Gore’s famous global warming speech in New York a few years back. It was in mid winter, NY hit a record freezing temp that day.
Yeah because the one or two temperature increase in the oceans that causes ice caps to melt is enough to make them boil.
Those corn forks only work for cold food.
1) Primitive magic: Invisible Sky Friend will make it all better if they mutter more incantations and obey ever-stricter taboos. Invisible Sky Friend’s Best Friend told them so. Remember the “causes” of drought, famine and disease a few days ago?
2) Hostility towards Science means hostility towards unpleasant things scientists discover. “F****ng Magnets. How do they work?” Jews as Juggalos.
3) A lot of the Orthodox have trouble with the idea that the Earth goes around the Sun. They almost all live in big cities. They have no knowledge of history. How do you expect them to know any better?
4) Innumeracy. With the pathetic state of Yeshiva “education”, even worse than regular American and Canadian education, most can’t grasp statistical reasoning at all. The arguments and conclusions are in a language which they simply cannot understand.
5) Politically the Jewish Right has become an appendage of the Christian Right. Since their Masters are professionally allergic to any environmental concerns their Jewish dupes and slaves are, too.
R’ Nuran,
While I realize this is a ‘sh’as ha’koshar’ for you to express some of your love and admiration for the Frummy-O’s, everything you mentioned is purely theoretical.
The real reason why a Torah-true Jew is not overly concerned with the future of the environment, is because we believe history here on earth will max itself out at 6000 (229 years from now), and at that point G-d will destroy the earth and subsequently recreate it.
So if you find any environmental problem which will manifest itself between now and then, and which also happens to be worth the trouble and inconvienence to try and solve it, THEN we can offer the good ol’ excuse of “You’re not gonna get the whole world to go along with it, so if you want to be the only idiot in a hybrid and with 4 garbages – be my guest, while I enjoy my SUV. Because in the end we’ll all just suffer the same fate anyway.”
And if the world at large DOES in fact begin to care for the environment, without a doubt the OJ’s will follow suit. Not necessarily because of it’s inherent importance, but simply not to make a ‘chilul H-shem’ by openly countering the efforts of the world around them.
Doubtful, the way you people act shows you don’t give a crap what people think of you.
Would you care to elaborate?
I just don’t get it. Let me see if I have it right… God created the world and then we humans have no responsibility to make sure that the world retains the balance and beauty with which God imbued it? What does this have to do with right wing politics and left wing politics? Can’t you think for yourself? Just because the same people who favor the right of women to have abortions are generally the same people who are environmentalists, somehow that make environmentalism traif? The narrowness of so many in the ultra-frum community never ceases to shock me. God created the earth and humans in God’s image and commanded us to guard them, but environmentalism and careful adherence to a healthy life-style play no role in Jewish practice? I’m sorry, I’m never going to understand how that is the case.
Sure they play a role, but NEVER at the expense of fulfilling commandments, learning torah, or the developement of a torah observing community.
Keep in mind, open-mindedness means accepting the possibility that narrow-mindedness might sometimes be the correct approach.
Be careful not to be hypocritical in your zeal to open up and explore.
lol @ 2! it is true giraffes are awesome. 😀
Your surroundings affect you, you better move out of the Bay Area…. G-D created everything and he will make sure everything will continue to exist the way he intended for it to, our efforts are merely a statement to G-D that he doesn’t do enough so we have to help him by protecting the environment that he created, where is your Emunah!!!
If this is a POE it’s remarkably close to the actual beliefs of the Religious Right.
What’s a POE?
(Wiki was giving me all kids of Edgar Allen Poe info.)
To quote from RationalWiki:
So a POE is either a fundamentalist argument or a parody which is indistinguishable from one.
Blarg. Edit –
So a POE is either a gonzo fundamentalist argument or a parody which is indistinguishable from one
Well, I’m neither and that is my belief, if you were a Jewish believer that believes in one G-D you would agree with my previous statement.
hehsy, caring for the health of our planet (our living legacy just like our offspring ) and the future we leave our children means being environmentally and eco caring. any one who doesn’t think so can kiss ass. g-d made the planet and we have to honor it and take good care of it like a gift…!
In the same was you wouldn’t dump your garbage can onto somebody else’s lawn you should not dump your garbage on the world.
Sensitivity towards how our actions affect others is an obvious theme of orthodox Judaism.
Thinking that g-d will protect us from the world being polluted by our actions is like thinking that god will clean up my neighbors lawn if I dump garbage on it.
shmuel you rock. i almost want to be more observant after your post. however that ain’t gonna happen. just doing mitzvahs when i can and looking at the worlds lawn to keep clean.
As a Christian who has worked in the frum community (Chabad Lubavitch), I must admit that though I love the Jews I worked with, their complete (!!) lack of concern for the environment made me cringe. Plastic, plastic, plastic, everywhere. Families of 10 kids—all diapered with plastic. Plastic tablecloths. Plastic water bottles. Heck, I’ve even seen disposable plastic cups in a family kitchen!! And, of course, no recycling bin in sight (not that I support over-using plastic and rationalizing it by recycling, but not recycling anything at all adds insult to injury).
Global Warming is happening, and as fast as Moshiach may come, Global Warming is coming even faster, and the NO ONE, not even the frum community, is going to escape it. We are all going to pay the bill that comes with this senseless consumerism. If we want to minimize the costs of this bill, everyone, including the frummies, must pitch in.
Religion is not an excuse for trashing the earth. If anything, it is the contrary.
I think it’s time to have some children for you instead of just aborting them.
Way to make yourself look smart.
Thank you.
Douchebag, go back to youtube
Hell no, i like it here.
Yeah cuz self identified Christians are into abortion.
@Mimibou
You have to understand when you have 8 kids, you go through alot more products than a family of 2 or 4. Plastic diapers, I mean what else should you use? Cloth diapers? Yecchh, they leak and you have to wash them yourself or hire a diaper service to come pick them up and wash them and the charge money for that.
I come from a large family and we do use alot of plastic, but that is better than someone scrubbing dishes all day. Imagine all the water wasted, besides for the poor person doing the scrubbing.
Maybe that in itself is a reason not to have 8 kids.
I understand where you’re coming from, but unfortunately, I don’t think that rationalizing this is the right thing to do.
What did people do before plastic diapers were invented (the 60s)? Plastic is expensive (esp. with many kids, you save money when using cotton, perhaps even when you use a service), promotes skin irritation (lack of air circulation), and potentially leaches chemicals into the skin of the baby. The number of children in a family does not really make a difference: it is highly unlikely to have more than 2 kids in diapers at a time, and plenty of people do that.
With modern cloth diapers, the problems of leaks are no more an issue than with plastic, and washing them is much less polluting than using plastic (as long as you don’t wash them one at a time in hot water and dry them in the dryer even when the sun is shining). And given the size of the family, there is hopefully going to be more than one person doing the scrubbing.
The larger a family is, the larger its carbon footprint. It is not the job of the small families to live in straw huts while the large ones go on with business as usual. After all, we have to keep in mind that God created this earth for humans to populate it, not destroy it.
Sorry if this is long, but I hope you understand what I mean! 🙂
Mimibou,
I think your attitude is on the hippi-ish side. When you have many young kids at home, they take up your time and energy. People will do whatever they can to save time, which includes using disposables, especially diapers. Never mind the fact that washing them is revolting.
The big polluters are manufacturers. A single factory pollutes more than hundreds of households, they should be the ones people are after, instead of people harassing housewives to hang their clothes and scrub diapers.
@Mimibou
I agree with Phil. This is small potatoes compared to pollution by industry. The carbon dioxide spewed by cars, coal plants and private jets is what people should be concerned about.
And being a hippie radical is not for everyone. You suggested hanging clothes to dry on a warm day. Well, I have allergies and would not hang my clothes out to dry as the would exacerbate my allergies with pollen all over my clothes.
i blame the OU for putting their labels on every piece of disposable kitchen ware
Mimibou,
Not that sure that conventional dishes are any better than disposable ones.
How much freshwater is “wasted” washing dishes?
How much fossil fuel is burned powering the dishwasher or hot water tanks?
How much soap and cleaning agents are dumped back into the water?
how many toxic chemicals are use to make plastic/paper plates/utensils and the packaging it comes in?
First of all, the ultra-orthodox don’t care about global warming simply because it’s being pushed by the left and is seen as a liberal agenda. If the right start to agree with it, the Ultra-O world will accept as well.
Secondly, the global warming movement is definitely pushing an agenda. Recycling anything other than aluminum cans causes more pollution than it saves, the endangered species act hasn’t saved a single species of animal from extinction (not to mention that there’s more today than ever before in history), reducing emissions has a negligible effect on the climate temp, and eating organic is worse for the environment. And when a real solution for GW is presented, like a chemical spray into the atmosphere, it’s shot down simply because it’s unthinkable to use human-made Tam’eh chemicals on the atmosphere (this solution and Al Gore’s response are quoted in SuperFreakonomics).
The earth is heating up because of natural reasons that we have nothing to do with, and people with solutions are being blocked to push the self-flagellating agenda of the hippies.
You are very wrong in the general case and in the particulars. I will only address one particular right now. There are dozens of species which have only escaped extinction because of the legal protections of the Endangered Species Act and related legislation. Among the most notable are the wolf, the lobo wolf, the bison, the bald eagle, the golden eagle, the peregrine falcon, the leopard frogs of the Southwest, the cougar, the green sea turtle and all of the great whales.
I used to think the ESA was made sense too, until I saw this vid:
http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/167725/detail/
Now I know it’s just Bullsh!t.
Just make sure that Sarah Palin doesn’t get to see this…
Don’t worry, Bullsht bashes the bible too, she wouldn’t go near it. Plus they show nudity.
Imo, Bullsht is one of the best shows out there. I don’t agree with their opinions all of the time, but I think they do solid research, and Penn Jillete is pretty entertaining.
Nothing beats the bullet-catching trick they did in the mid-90’s…
I’ve watched a few since you put me onto it, and whilst there are some that are informative and well researched, quite a few seem to be little more than just swearing, ad hominem attacks and making blanket statements with no proof (for example in the second-hand smoke episode they claim that there is not a single paper that shows any damage by second-hand smoke, I know this to be incorrect as my course assignment for my biology A-level [kind if like the English equivalent of a college major] was on the dangers of smoking and there are PLENTY of peer-reviewed studies proving the dangers of second-hand smoke). Overall, its much like almost anything else, sometimes on, sometimes way off.
No, definitely. I noticed that on the self-esteem episode (a subject I had researched on my own). Penn Jillete says something blanket like “There’s no connection between self-esteem and depression”. That’s just absurd. I can point you to those studies that don’t exist showing the correlation.
But overall, I still think it’s much better than average TV, (and probably more truthful than the news).
Thanks, A. Nuran. I was going to mention this too. When I was growing up, you had to go to Alaska to even get a chance at seeing a bald eagle, and then your odds were minuscule. Now, we have them near my home in southern Ohio. They have been taken off the endangered species list. 40 years ago, they were on the verge of extinction. Now they are thriving. No one should dare say that the Endangered Species Act does nothing!
“Not that sure that conventional dishes are any better than disposable ones.” Do your research.
“How much freshwater is “wasted” washing dishes?” Less than the amount of pollution which making plastic dishes creates.
“How much fossil fuel is burned powering the dishwasher or hot water tanks?” How much fossil fuel is required to make single-use dishes, again? Do your research and use EnergyStar certified machines.
“How much soap and cleaning agents are dumped back into the water?” Number 1 reason why you should make your own with borax, washing soda, and citric acid. Also, good machines (eg. Bosch) use minuscule amounts of soap (about a teaspoon).
So your arguments are easily taken down, Phil. Sorry man!
Mimibou,
I’ll concede the fossil fuel thing, but making plastic dishes doesn’t use nearly as much water as people washing their dishes. Quite often, dishes are washed by hand, larger amounts of soap are used, and most people I know don’t make their own soap.
Polyethelene resin is one of the byproducts of fuel refining. As long as people need fuel for vehicles and home heating, you’ll have plastics, styrofoam, polyester, etc. What else would you have them do with all the byproduct if not to produce it into consumer goods?
Of course, we can revert to horse and buggy, but the methane gas animals produce would cause more damage to the ozone than people’s cars. On the flip side, the amount of sh*t shovellers required would reduce unemployment. 😉
Well, no matter how you put it, the fact is that we will eventually run out of oil to make fuel and whatnot. Eventually, we’ll have to switch to nuclear, water, solar, and wind power, and byebye polyethylene! In the meantime, plastics are ruining our health (read a little bit about the chemicals which plastics leach in food, air, and whatnot), killing animals who try to eat them, fill our dumps to the point where nothing biodegrades (not even a hotdog), and make us dependent on big business. If plastics have uses that are good for humanity, I’d rather save them for those particular uses instead of wasting them on making trash.
Your claim about methane gas doesn’t make too much sense when you consider that we have tons of animals around already and nothing drastic’s happened yet. “Reverting to horse and buggy” would not change much to this. The earth was made for animals, not for cars. But honestly, I never mentioned horses to start with. There are plenty of other means of transportation which are far less polluting than cars (electrical trains and the subway, for example) without us all having to become Amish.
Anyways, that’s it for me. Night!
I wonder what’s really worse for the environment, washing dishes by hand or using a dishwasher. I think the dishwasher’s worse, but I could be wrong.
Actually, I thought so too, but I was wrong! I read somewhere that EnergyStar certified machines use less water than washing by hand. That is, if you don’t rinse the dishes before putting them in (unless they are really sticky) and if you only start it when it’s full. Many machines even have an energy-saving mode, too.
That’s great news for lazy people like me! 😛
perchance the” somewhere” you read that was a EnergyStar advertisment? I know thats where I read it
No, I’m not that dim. 😉 It was actually in a publication from my the town where my parents own a cottage.
It is true. People who buy a dishwasher save money on their water bill. The dishwasher recycles the water and resprays it on the dishes. Then I think they do a rinse with clean water.
Just read through all the responses. I am completely stunned that not once have I seen any reference to “bal tashchit” or the commandment that we not destroy nature needlessly. It stuns me when frum Jews don’t care about the environment, because it’s a mitzvah, for crying out loud! There is a perfect example of how even the frummies pick and choose which mitzvot matter to them.
I suppose that “needlessly” is a word that can be interpreted in more than one way…
Exactly Bal Tashchit specifically commands us not to waste the bounty that God has given us. That bounty includes everything in our environment.
some types of environmentalism are just a substitute for religion and politics. There is nothing necessarily leftwing about environmentalism, the misanthropic malthus-ian or conservative”Not In My Back Yard” types are far-right and blatently racist, anti-progress, anti-3rd wold, snobbish against the working class and non-white ‘breeders’, looking foward to the apocalypse and destruction of human civilization – these types might be more popular with frummies.
I’m a communist, IMO global warming is just a big distraction, environmentalist attempt to create a narrative for their a-political religion. There are serious environmental issues to deal with but they preach salvation through unplugging cellphone chargers. People bicker about what might cause theoretical future global warming while we are destroying our forests and oceans.
Mimibo, why do you hate jews?
I do not hate Jews! As I said in my first post, I have worked in the Jewish community for years, and I find the culture and religion fascinating.
What frustrates me, however, is the lack of concern that I observe when it comes to caring for the environment that WE ALL SHARE. You wouldn’t have a big party and then slam the neighbors with the cleanup bill, right? Same goes for the earth. And it’s not just the Jews that frustrate me in this aspect, believe me, we have plenty of Christians doing the exact same thing, and it doesn’t make it any more right. But it seems extremely widespread in the Jewish community, and considering its exponential growth, it’s concerning. I do hope things change a little bit, but that usually takes time.
I’m sorry if it sounded like I hate Jews, I really do not. I have learned sooo much while working with Jews, I am so thankful for the experience.
But no matter how sweet and wonderful people can be, that doesn’t make it alright to live off plastic 24/7.
And honestly, why would I read Frumsatire if I hated Jews? 🙂
Don’t worry about that *sshole. I didn’t see any anti-semitism in there. Some people just cant handle criticism, even about using too much plastic.
We just brush it off as another left wing immoral agenda.
IIRC you are the one not covering your hair , therefore picking and choosing between commandments.
show me where it specifically says hair covering is a commandment instead of dat yehudi.
“ve porah es rosh haisha” by the sotah.
The Frum community does care about the environment as you can see from these links from Sviva Israel’s activities.
http://www.svivaisrael.org/programs_en.asp?id=14
http://www.svivaisrael.org/programs_en.asp?id=16
The problem is that the environment is not very high on the Frum community’s very long list of priorities. This is regrettably why many Frum communities often look the way they do.
Think about your average charedi person living in Israel. Sure, they have lots of kids. But they’re poor, so they consume few resources. They don’t fly on planes numerous times each year, unlike most secular western environmentalists. Their main passtime is Torah Study, which although it is based on books made from trees, is still far more green than most hobbies and passtimes of other groups (like international travel, etc.) And there is a growing environmental consciousness among some Orthodox Jews, from the settlers in Bat Ayin growing organic crops to Breslover Rav Avraham Greenbaum teaching a study course about Torah and the environment:
http://www.azamra.org/earth.shtml
Mimibou: so defensive!
Why yes, defense is a normal response to aggression, and I want to make it a point that I love Jews even though I’m not one! 🙂
creepy.
Frummies are right wing the republican party caters to right wingers… the republicanparty pushes the agenda of corperate interest. Most businesses need to pollute to turn a good profit. Massive propaganda and general brain washing get otherwise smart people to believe bullshit.so because bush said this about israel and I liked that then ill believe him on this…
That goes for both sides.. I personally think that we are living an unsustainable lifestyle but I also think that our climates goes through warming and cooling periods…the middle ages was like a mini ice age… it warmed up then cooled off then warmed up again. This is nature. Volcanic explosions put as much co2 in the air as our cars do. Co2 is food for plantlife- so is warm “green house weather” it would actually be good for the food shortage if our planet were warmer. Does that mean I don’t want my winter? Of course not. I like cooler weather better than warm weather.
That all being said I hate what mass production, non desposible items, corperate greed is doing to this planet. There are health risks involved. Its a shame we live so unsustainably.. we go paper less and to e-cars but then we have e- wast that’s harder to get rid of.. but I am not going to make blanket statements either. We need to conserve andbe more efficient but everyone flying to geneva to talk about pollution caused morepollution then it solved… I don’t see obama driving a prius to camp david or a hybrid air force one. Much of this shit is for looks pretention and general hipster-ness.. its posh to b green. Having a patagonia zip up vest does not make you cool or special.
Ever see some houses in Monsey? I don’t expect their owners to become tree huggers overnight, but do they have to leave so much garbage on their lawns?
People with big families have no other choice but to use disposable crap. I hate the stuff but its so cheap and I don’t have extra hours to do dishes. Also FYI recycling is pretty big in Israel I see pretty much everyone recycling.