This meme, one of the first I’ve posted is very true. In general, the Jewish community at large thinks varying things of Baal Teshuva. In yeshiva we thought them to be a bit off their rocker “if they became frum, it means something was missing” is how people in the yeshiva world view BT’s – which is funny because kiruv is the hottest yeshiva industry, behind getting your BTL and finding the back door way into law school. Non-frum folks think BT’s are absolutely insane and wonder why they couldn’t have slowed the indoctrination process just a tad. Parents usually duke it out and then once in a rare while you hear about the kid who made the parents frum. Feminists think any BT has joined a cult (which in most cases is true) and those off the derech folks will try everythinbg in their power to do “kiruv” to those in the throes of “I had the most beautiful shabbos in the world, time to throw my college education away and become a welfare recipient mode.
What do you really think of BT’s?
Find out more about BT’s on 4torah.com
maybe 1 in 10 get into it for the right reasons. there are so many who fry out after a few years, and a bunch more who wish they could but cant because they have no non frum friends.
I am one and think the meme is pretty true.
What I don’t get is why FFB find secular Jews ignorant and get mad when they become religious. Can’t have your cake and eat it to, folks.
And wow I actually spelled “too” wrong.
I know alot of BT’s who are very erlich people as long as they don’t get involved with chabad which is not real yiddishkeit and become screwed up and cut off their beards and die their hair blonde and end up looking like faggots like Matisyahu. Maybe it is not just Chabad Yitz Jordon became a rapper and a faggot, so maybe BT’s should just not become rappers and leave all rap behind.
unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.
WTF?!
How dare you insult Chabad you unappreciative ingrate son of a prick?
You sound like a mentally insane individual who will die alone. Oh and chabad rules and it would be hilarious if your kids turn out gay.
That dude can’t have kids with his meth buddy/boyfriend anyway..
I agree with you Ruvie. Chabad’s pretty awesome–what got you interested in Chabad?
Actually, I agree with yodawg, and we shouldn’t feed the trolls.
I love this
I think BTs have guts.
Wow, freaks all up in this website now, homophobes, racists.. it this frumsatire commenters, or did they get lost on the way to storm front?
Faggot
You must be one of the lost..
If it makes your life better and doesn’t harm anyone else, more power to you. Of course, that also applies to going OTD or joining the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
agreed!
“if they became frum, it means something was missing”
I truly don’t understand this sentiment. I’ve heard it. I know it’s popular. But it’s mystifying. Of course, people become frum because they are missing something! It’s like saying ‘if they are eating, it means they were hungry’. Well, d’uh!
(It’s meaning, btw, that thing that we we missing.)
*we were missing
Amen!
Feminist BT here, screwing up your stereotypes.
hahahaha *confirming
Um, no.
because only a feminist bt would shout to the world about how shes a feminist bt and that makes her better. see ya next tuesday.
I don’t really understand what you just said.
Epic feminist fail.
How so?
Can you maybe explain more about why FFBs think BTs are “off their rocker”?
Heshy’s written about this in the past.
It’s because FFBs don’t understand why someone else would voluntarily put themselves through this.
See now. You all think that BT’s are crazy and become frum for emotionally unstable reasons. And FFB’s also think so.
But you guys think that FFB’s shouldn’t think so.
I don’t get that. I think people become frum or become OTD usually for emotional reasons. People make huge life changes for emotional reasons. And it doesn’t make me feel at all unconfident about my religion to think that.
Anyone in kiruv who thinks one has to be nuts to become a BT doesn’t really believe in the product they are selling and should get out of the kiruv business now!
no they should steer the wackos to a shrink and spend their valuable time with people who are actualy shayich
Most BT’s are quite normal, but the freakish ones stand out in people’s minds. Bt’s are akward in the beginning, as they have to get used to a whole new world, typically trying to hard to fit in, while not understanding enough. Given enough time, most end up just like most FFB’s.
It’s not like FFB’s don’t have their share of crazies…
One of my best friends is a BT, I think that the frum world needs more people like her.
is she hot?
Aren’t you married? Reserve all comments about hot women for your wife.
Why? His wife won’t know if AriSparkles’ friend is hot 😛
The FFB world sees ba’alei teshuva as crazy because we are–crazy about Torah and its ideals. Crazy about embracing the spirit of the law. Crazy about sanctifying the Torah by engaging it rather than submitting to it and engaging the world under a higher imperative than compulsion. We are seen as crazy for our burning enthusiasm by a complacent world of religious drones who take for granted what we exalt and who envy a passion that they cannot understand. Don’t get me wrong, if I were an FFB I’d probably feel the same. The Torah world needs to appreciate and recognize the BT movement for breathing new life into a decaying exilic Judaism and saving the religious establishment from becoming irrelevant to the national renaissance of the Jewish people.
Ze’ev,
Unfortunately, that warm fuzzy feeling tends to wear off with time, especially for BT’s living in big frum communities. Maybe the getting used to every day frum life, maybe the frum scoundels you’ll encounter, maybe the Yetzer Hara, probably a combination of all of the above.
I respectfully disagree–have you tried living in Israel?
self righteious dickheads like you are why ffbs dislike bts
Awww…what a mature way to have a conversation. Now show me how I’m wrong, or shove it.
dude get over yourself. your only making bts seem more annoying
Listen, y’all, I did not mean to imply that FFBs are all religious drones, which I obviously did. I probably have more FFB friends than BTs, since FFB’s really are more “normal” and “balanced”, and because I HATE being told how to tie my laces or how evil non-religious yidden are. But, like it or not, that tends to come at the cost of passion and fresh perspective, which I think should be valued by all. My favorite Jews are actually gerim, because they tend to come with a lot less of this self-adulating/self-hating baggage.
Is this better? 🙂
What is then the value of your religion, if you view a BT who embraces or “returns” to your religion as utterly insipid?
The truth is that FFBs find it humorous that someone with an English name who went to college thinks they can join their exclusive club. Can’t be done!
They aren’t crazy because they became frum; they became frum because they are crazy.
We think people can and should become frum for proper intellectual reasons, but recognize that many who do are really just socially awkward or emotionally confused.
exactly. if you become frum in college, 9 times out of 10 its because chabad or aish or whatever was the only group that accepted you
You are correct, but so much of kiruv ignores the rational and goes straight for the high-return tactics – emotional appeal and love-bombing.
Sure. I think plenty of kiruv joints are garbage.
As a BT(and a ger, even more perspective on the matter), it seems that FFBs live in a realm of fear and “If only I could….”. For them, the most threatening thing is that a BT realized that they could do what they want and have the mesirius nefesh to give up everything and face family and friends who go against their motivations.
For an FFB, they’re crippled because most of them know nothing of the outside and couldn’t function on their own. For a BT, we are used to adapting to new things(because in the secular world its all about “melting pots” and exposure) to it is way easier.
What is my evidence? Bacon. Or breaking Shabbat. It is so easy to do and yet numerous FFBs have told me they wish they could and don’t really understand why someone would give up the ability to do that. Really, they mentally cripple themselves from the option…so…their reality is altered. All it takes is choice, yet, they fear the choice so much they feel it is beyond reach.
Bacon is so overrated. It’s a disgusting pile of grease and I’m not a healthy eater or anything, but the mere smell of it makes me feel a stomachache from the handful of times I ate it.
I do miss ham, though.
i think that bt’s feel a need to put down ffb’s as being less frum then them (as we can see in the comments) to make themselves feel better about themselves. all the bt’s i know hang out with other bts and talk about how much they miss cheeseburgers and how theyre better than ffbs
You don’t know too many BTs.
I never said FFBs are less frum. I did say that there are more inspired. It’s a generalization, not aimed at anyone in particular.
I think the problem is more that we are told by rabbis that we need to be doing all these things that real people don’t do. I’ve also discovered that people keeping chumrahs like cholav Yis, often keep their kitchens questionably, at least compared to what they tell us we need to be doing. Like I was told that you HAVE to have separate dish drying racks for milchig and fleshig but many people don’t. Some people use half the burners for fleish and the other half milch, but most people don’t make any distinctions.
It’s frustrating to see that you were told to do things very strictly and you discover that everyone around isn’t keeping what you were told to keep. So, most people will tell the people they are doing it wrong.
“I think the problem is more that we are told by rabbis that we need to be doing all these things that real people don’t do.”
This is true for converts as well, although my rabbi explained that not everyone will be doing things the way I was learning.
It became apparent that this was correct as I almost immediately saw things being done differently. Trouble was, I didn’t know which things would be different until I came across the situation.
I suppose it’s best to learn chumrahs and go from there, as long as you have a head’s up that real life does not always emulate ideals.
Judaism needs a ‘traditional’ Jewish Ba’Ath party to clean up the garbage – ffb, bt, secular all need to unite on this to end the corruption in the religious establishment and bring judaism to each and every Jew regardless of social status!
ohmigosh jewish unity? we should totally try that!
Interesting responses, but can anybody explain to me what the essence or value of this “yeshivishe” religion is, whose most dedicated aherents essentially scoff at those who join?
I get the sociological idiosynrasies, but what is the essence of the religion? Or is it utterly vapid?
That has been responded to as well.
The thing about this conversation that strikes me as odd is that we feel we can discuss “BTs” as some kind of monolith. The stereotype seems to be that BTs are emotionally vulnerable, obsessed with fitting into to some imagined ideal, and then burn out after a few years. I’m sure that happens, but I know an awful lot of BTs who simply don’t fit that bill at all…and so that line of discussion gets pretty boring and useless pretty quickly.
If there’s one thing that I’ve learned since becoming part of the “more religious” community in the last decade, it’s that it’s truly filled with *individuals*—BT, FFB, converts—who are striving to carve their own paths based on their personal relationship with Hashem, with Torah, and the Jewish people. And it’s pretty damned cool.
It’s the same mistake that Reform as a movement makes when it fews “the Orthodox” as some kind of monolith, and pretend they have a clue what motivates “the Orthodox,” when in truth so-called Orthodoxy is more a big anarchic cacophony.
yeah but stereotypes exist for a reason. for every person who doesnt fit the stereotype theres a bunch more who do.
the fact is, many bt’s go otd because they finally realize that being religious doesnt erase their emotional problems. and many more stay religious but miserable because they cant admit to themselves that its not working. thats why so many bt’s kids fry out: they pick up the vibe from their parents
” The stereotype seems to be that BTs are emotionally vulnerable, obsessed with fitting into to some imagined ideal, and then burn out after a few years. ”
I quit when I realized that FRUMerica (Frum America) is more disturbing and corrupt than the secular world. Now, that’s pretty hard to do. What really bothered me is that FRUMerica justifies their actions by perverting their “god” to make things acceptable. Now, I have met some very good frum Jews, but the leadership structure is truly traitorous and wicked.
Amen, amen, amen!! I am religious today not because of some kiruv organization, or because of anyone I met in the shtetlized world of FRUMerica, or because of any kind of instability. I chose the Torah path on my own at the age of 26 because it was a path that spoke to me since early childhood. I tried to fit in somewhere into FRUMerica my whole life, but it wasn’t until I moved to Israel that I realized how natural being a Jew could be, and that I could never have lived a double life in the galut.
Whatever problems I have adopted when I returned to my homeland, they are nothing compared to the falseness of a “community” of “religious” Jews who deny one of the most basic principles of their faith (living in Israel), so many of whom have indeed allowed the worst elements of American culture pervert the Torah values of national pride, not to mention those of modesty and basic human decency.
The future of the Jewish people is in Israel, and in the generations to come only those who heed the call of “Lech Lecha” will ensure that their grandchildren will be proud to call themselves Jews. But that means that y’all who are sleeping better wake up *today*.
No amount of ad hominem attacks will denigrate this basic truth. Ignore it at your peril.
I am one so I’m a little biased, but I don’t find BTs any crazier than I find FFB folks. Actually I don’t find them crazy at all (in general).
But seriously I don’t get the dislike of both BTs and secular Jews. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Dislike? You think we dislike secular jews?
hahaha zing
you are supposed to judge people on the scales of merit. this is easy to do for BT since they have in all likelihood looked at the general secular world and discovered something precious in Torah. The trouble starts in that in fact most stereotypes are true. But do tend to fit the BT stereotype. Why it is wrong to look at this is that FFB also tend to follow the FFB stereotype.
This discussion is depressing and reminds me of why I made aliyah.
FFBs always mutter that they want all the Jews to “l’chazor b’tshuva, b’ezrat Hashem”…but as long as they don’t marry FFBs, or join their yeshivas, or try to “infiltrate” their communities. Or they just pity them.
I am BT, and I do believe that becoming observant was the best decision I’ve ever made, and I am satisfied with this path. But it hasn’t been easy, and FFBs need to give BTs more credit.
I think BTs are a breath of fresh air into an FFB community that would go necrotic all by itself.
Gerim are even better.
These are people who consciously chose to change their lives. They, not FFBs, are truly growing.
The stereotype of people who convert or become religious is everywhere…..”fanatically pious or overly enthused to the point of annoying the regulars” Coming from a secular background I look at the OTD folks as secular converts.
Both kinds can make a bad mistake when they have romanticized notions. They will be disappointed. It’s is like marraige. The “romance” is nice and helps make the leap but you had better be sure that you have a realistic view of the faults and will be able to live with them after the novelty wears off.
Massive lovebombing outreach sweeps people off their feet. Converts in Judaism aren’t sought out and “romanced” that way, so there is less attraction for the needy and wounded….not that they can’t also be needy, it’s just they will be looking at something else to fill it.
Kiruv is just more likely to get a few more people who are lonely and in need of love….if once they are “in” the love taps are turned off and their kiruv-mate goes off to find new BT prospects, well no wonder they fry out. Either they can’t find a loving community, or no community could provide the level of attention and love they need.
But that can happen with converts too. There is one at my shul who thinks that they have joined a magic club where God specially protects them and that they are now better than ordinary mortal non-Jews. Yet they are horrifically oversensitive to born Jews and have shouted at one that I know of about the JFB thinking they are better (much to the BT recipients shock). Pesters everyone to observe who is less observant and feels superior, yet actually shrieked in outrage about some comment a Haredi Rabbi made about less observant Jews. Kind of mirrors the BT/FFB thing about who is better. If you yourself are full of arrogance/superiority you will tend to attribute it to others even when it isn’t there.
Love the meme!
Any one interested in this stuff should make the trip over to Passaic, NJ to see BT idealism (which this meme isn’t far off from depicting) brought to life. It’s a wannabe Lakewood in which 90% of that community are BT and the results are absolutley fascinating. The division of schools, the confused davening styles, there’s too much to list. I’m not sure if Hesh has ever written about it but there’s undoubtedly months of FS material available there.