I received a phone call last night from a good friend of mine asking me what I thought of the current effort to influence the proceedings of the Rubashkin trial. I had no answer for him and that bothered me. To tell the truth, I haven’t been paying much attention to the Rubashkin. As someone in the Jewish media, I probably should be.
I get at least one text a day from this guy telling me to learn for the zechus of Shalom Modechai Ben Rivka Rubashkin and I have been bombarded with mail, facebook messages and wall posts asking me to help out with trying to convince the jury that the sentencing is way too high. As with the Martin Grossman case of a few months ago, Chabad has been pumping millions of dollars into the PR campaign to spread the word about Rubashkin — they even got a bunch of former US Attorney Generals to send letters that say the sentencing was wrong and so on.
On the frum news blogs like Vos Iz Neias, Yeshiva World News and Matzav, the commenters and articles seem to be claiming the courts are anti-Semitic and if Rubashkin weren’t Jewish he wouldn’t be treated so harshly. I tried to get my lawyer friend who wrote the article on Martin Grossman to write one on the legal issues and what he thought of the Rubashkin case, but he never got back to me.
I decided that I wanted to know what you folks thought of the Rubashkin case and PR campaigns supporting him. Most folks automatically jump to the defense of a fellow Jew, but that’s not how I roll. If I am to support a cause, I want to be sure I am not just jumping on the bandwagon. I also trust that due to the diversity of the folks who read this blog, the comments and speculation should be more interesting than that of the one sided websites that either support or hate Rubashkin – for example Failed Messiah vs. Crown Heights Info. I hope that some sort of conclusion or clarity can be reached based on the discussion this post receives.
The video put out by Chabad is quite good and convincing, and I like the actor they hired to do it.
The guy may have been guilty but a life sentence is way excessive.
I hardly know anything about this case, so I am prepared to make myself look like a complete retard on this particular issue when I respond. If I am way off in my understanding then I am sorry about that.
My understanding of what he did is that we hired illegal immigrants to work in his kosher factory. My question is, SO WHAT? Who cares? He hired people who were looking for jobs. He hired people who had a much worse life in Mexico. He improved their life. Just because something is illegal does not make it immoral. If this is the “only” crim that Rubashkin did then he is no villian, he is a hero, and our justice system is nothing but injustice (I think people already know this by now). Furthermore, he is a non-violent person. Only violent people need to be enslaved in cages because they are a danger for society, non-violent criminals should be forced to pay fines.
Let us review: a non-violent criminal, who improved the lives of Mexicans by giving them employment, is being ensalved in a cage for a long period of time. …. That sounds retarded. And I hope people see the evils of our “justice” system.
And by the way. I am a skeptic (atheist), I hardly ever defend Jewish rabbis. I condemn many actions of Israel and Rabbis whereas my Jewish friends defend them for the sole reason that they are Jews. But I do not care. This is not a Jewish or non-Jewish issue, this is a human issue.
But maybe I completely misunderstand what happened, which may be, and so I find this ruling ridiculous.
He wasn’t doing them a favour, he was exploiting them. People hire illegal immigrants because they aren’t protected by labour laws and they don’t have to pay them decent wages. That is immoral apart from being illegal.
I’m not american so I don’t know what the media coverage is like. It seems strange he would even make the news but that is a different issue.
Illegals actually have the same workers benefits and employers must abide by the same labor laws as legal workers…there is absolutely no difference.
Here in California, the workers comp laws are ridiculous and with any contest or dispute the employer is guilty until proven innocent regardless the legality of the worker.
legally they may be required to, but in practice they do not- the illegal workers are easy to exploit and usually will not complain to anyone because they fear deportation. I used to work at a kosher chinese resturaunt in monsey and they had several illegal workers there who were earning much less than the minimum wage and working 14 hour shifts with no lunch or any other break.
the immigration charges were completely dropped… y’all should follow the case more closely before commenting on it.
The immigration charges were dropped *without* prejuidice, because under Federal Sentencing guidelines conviction on those counts would not have been likely to increase the jail time.
The government can reopen them should they choose to, and a Jury has found that Sholom Rubashkin did employ illegal aliens.
So I look at a few responses and I keep on seeing “exploit”, “exploiting”, “he is exploiting” … and so forth. What am I reading, the Communist Manifesto? You people repulse me with your lack of common sense.
Let us put things into perspective. Why would these Mexicans risk everything that they have, leave their country, to get over the boarder illegally, so that they can end up working in the US? Do they do all of that to be “exploited”? Do they do that because Mexicans have a fantasy to be “exploited”? Use your basic common sense, they do is because their situation in the US is better than their previous situation, otherwise they would not do it.
You people repulsve me. Here we have a population of people that had a chance to improve their life by a little bit and you deny them that opportunity because of your self-righteous attitude. The only people that should make those kinds of choices are the illegals themselves, not you, you are not in their position, and you do not own them, they can make better choices for themselves than you can make for them. Now with Rubaskin closed down these illegals are no longer employed, their jobs lost, and henceforth their overall situation worse off. All because of your self-righteous policies. But of course you do not see it that way, because if you did you would not have the position that you have.
What bothers me almost as much is how none of you spoke out against this unfair sentencing to jail. None of you said that he should not be in jail. I guess, that is fine by you. You people are really repulsive with your self-righteous attitude. You scare me.
The two statements are not in conflict.
Someone can be trying to make a better life for themselves and still be exploited.
This is why I have far more sympathy for the illegal immigrants who are here to work than I do for the employers who are using them to get cheap labor.
To put it another way, the person who steals to eat is less culpable (at least in my opinion) than the fence who profits off them.
“Someone can be trying to make a better life for themselves and still be exploited.”:
To “exploit” means to take advantage of another person in an unfair way. If I make you sign a contract and I hide infromation in the contract then I have “exploited” you. But if I give you an option to work for me for low wages and you agree to that then I have no exploited you because you agreed to the conditions. Use your words carefully. The only reason why “exploit” is being used in the first place is to generate emotional appeal. The real definition of “exploit” does not fit under what Rubaskin did with the illegals.
So that is your first problem, misunderstanding what “exploit” means. Second problem, is that what is “fair” and “unfair” must be seen from the eyes of the person himself. Not through your eyes. For people like you or me who live rather normal lives it is harsh to have the kind of jobs the illegals have. However, you need to look at it from their own point of view. From their own point of view, they are better of, that was their whole reason for running to the US. Thus, they are improving their own life. Ending the business of Rubashkin only harms the illegals. You harm them. I defend them.
“so there are some more laws he broke and needs to serve time for.”:
So because someone broke laws, he has to serve time? What kind of an argument is that? If the government had a mandate for young adults to go to the draft and they refused then they must be thrown into a cage for refusing authority? Some laws are unjust, some laws are just. That is what is at stake here. And what I am saying is that these laws are unjust. What will now happen is that the illegals are going to be harmed. These laws have indirectly hurt the poor illegals. And besides, Rubashkin is not a violent criminal. Why ensalve him into a cage? As I said, you people scare me, with your lack of injustice.
We must break the unjust laws. Civil disobedience is necessary.
Yes I am a communist. If he cared so much he should have paid them the same as american workers. Somebody above said illegal immigrants are protected by labour laws, (although I don’t know how that is enforcable), so there are some more laws he broke and needs to serve time for.
People here illegally are (perhaps justifiably; if you don’t believe in a pure 100% open-border policy, it’s a logical extension not to be thrilled by those coming here illegally, in addition to some of the other potential issues which I’m not going to get into) highly unpopular.
Look at what Arizona just passed (not justifiably) on immigration (
Actually what he did was lie on a loan application, and then tried to cover it up. The government dropped the illegal immigrant charges.
That being said the angle the Jewish media seems to be taking is that he deserves to be punished for his crimes, however the recommended punishment is to harsh. I totally agree with that. If you think about it’s quite absurd that they would recommend life in prison for a white collar criminal. I hate to sound like i’m just repeating what everyone is saying, but it’s true. We have rapists, and murderers that don’t get life in prison. I think this totally disqualifies the prosecutors as being fair and objective, as they should be. anyone that can recommend life in prison for a first time non violent offender, who’s basic crime was that he lied on a loan application (which ironically he prob would have been able to pay back had the government not arrested him) has their head way to far up their ass.
If you want to make analogies, what he did was take out a mortgage on a house that didn’t exist, on land that didn’t exist, from a seller who wasn’t selling it, and then pocket the proceeds.
The loan in question was a secured credit line against the Agriprocessors Accounts Receivable.
It works like this. Company X sells a product to Customer Y. Customer Y has some period of time (often 90 days) to pay. This means that Company X has spent all the money to produce and ship the product, but doesn’t actually have anything to show for it. This can cause cash flow grief.
The credit line smooths that out. Company X sends documentation to the Bank showing that Customer Y has ordered the product, and that it has been shipped. The Bank then allows Company X to borrow that amount of money. When Customer Y pays for the product, the payment is supposed to go into a special bank account (a “sweeper” account) that takes the money back straight to the bank.
Sholom Rubashkin committed two sorts of bank fraud here. First, he diverted money that should have gone into the sweeper account and laundered it through a couple of charities he controlled. This money was eventually paid back, but it increased the exposure of the bank to loss because the money that guaranteed the loan had already been received and then diverted. Please note that under Federal Law, the Bank doesn’t even have to suffer a loss for this to be a crime, just fraudulently exposing a Bank to loss is sufficient, but sentence is dependent on the magnitude of the loss. And for those who think this isn’t a crime — if I steal your car and eventually return it, I still stole your car.
The second is even more serious. He created fraudulent invoices for purchases that never happened, coupled with fraudulent shipping invoices, and sent those to the Bank. This resulted in a loss of $10 million to the Bank. Even if you ignore the diversions of funds above, he was as likely to pay back the millions stolen this way as a Ponzi schemer is to pay back the millions sent out as “dividends”.
followed you in the beginning, until the part where you talk about pocketing the money. he DID NOT pocket the money. by all accounts (prosecution included) the money was reinvested in the business to keep it afloat, which was eventually liquidated to repay the loan.
unlike madoff.
(Somewhere in the spam filter I have an extensive comment on this that I’m not going to retype. Heshy?)
so why didn’t chabad come forward to defend bernie madoff? He also got what amounts to a life sentence for a white collar crime.
Easy, because Maddoff caused the financial ruin of hundreds indivduals (possibly including 2 suicides). Rubashkin lied on bank loans
Madoff got money through fraud.
Rubashklin got money through fraud.
Madoff did more damage. But they both were fraudsters.
“Lied on bank loans” is technically accurate in the sense that “Well, the truly machmir wouldn’t consider it Kosher” accurately describes Bacon.
Sigh, Dave do you think what Rubashkin did was as bad as Madoff?
As bad?
No.
Both criminal fraud with real victims? Absolutely.
My next door neighbor got busted lying on his tax return. He got hit with a hefty fine.
As bad as Maadof?
no
Both criminal fraud with real victims? Absolutely
So, how many tens of millions of dollars did your neighbor defraud people of?
Who said anything about tens of millions. It was a few thousand at most.
The bank told him to lie on the application so that he would access to a higher line of credit, which the bank was willing to provide. He defaulted when he was arrested. He made attempts to settle the money with the bank by selling agriprocessers. However because the highest bid for agriprocessors was less then amount of the loan, the bank did not accept that. When the court sold agriprocessors later to recover any assests Rubashkin may have had, agri was sold for a lot less. This money was then given to the bank. It was a lot less then the bank could have had, had rubashkin been allowed to sell the factory in the first place. I may have gotten minor details wrong, but the point it is: what rubashkin did cannot be begun to be compared to what maddoff did.
Furthermore, fraud is a very hard to define term. And the prosecutor’s use “fraud” when they do not have a better case. In the course of running a business it is very easy to make errors and not meet all the regulations and stipulations of the law. Such mistakes, however intentional or unintentional can be and have been defined as “fraud.”
This simply is not true.
Since the original post is still in the moderation queue, I’ll explain the fraud.
The line of credit was a secured line, secured by the “accounts receivable” of Agriprocessors. All payments would then go into a “sweeper” account that would pay down the line of credit. It was the diversion of those payments that constituted the money laundering, but we don’t need to concern ourselves with that here.
When a company sells a product to a business, the purchaser often has a period of time to pay (frequently 90 days). This means that the seller is out the costs of production and shipping, but does not have payment.
The line of credit serves to mitigate that cash flow issue. Company X submits documentation showing that Customer Y bought a product, and that it was shipped. The Bank then advances the Company the money, secured by the pending payment from Customer Y. Since this is a secured loan, there is lower risk to the Bank, and Company X gets a lower rate (and frankly, might not have gotten the loan at all for an unsecured loan).
What Sholom Rubashkin did was submit fraudulent receipts for sales that never happened, with fraudulent invoices for shipping product that never shipped, to the tune of $10 million dollars.
This isn’t “inflating your income”, this is the equivalent of getting a mortgage for a house that was never built, on land that wasn’t for sale, from a seller who never sold it, and pocketing the proceeds.
I hardly know anything about this case
You’re right, you don’t. Try and read up on it before making your comments – the charges have NOTHING to do with the (many) immigration violations.
Its seems like these days the media likes to go after Religious Jews and vilify them in the best way they could while CEO’s from Wall Street and Goldman Sachs get bailed out. I could be wrong with my perception but I sense a bit of anti – semetism in this case. Yes people who are indicted with tax fraud and embezzlement should be prosecuted equally to the fullest extend . I understand that the media is not a big fan of the Jews and only something like this would happen under the Obama administration ( which ironically earned approximatively 80 % of the Jewish vote ). I do see the point that the video presentation is trying to make and I feel Rubashkin deserves an appeal.
To Skeptic but Jewish : Employing people who don’t have a valid working permit or not a legal citizen is a felony. Its a federal law. I’m sure that there are many non kosher restaurants and facilities that employ illegal aliens .They should be prosecuted for breaking the law as well.
There’s a lot I don’t like about all the press and organized efforts to “save” Rubashkin. People like to point out that he has such a charming family and that the court should have compassion on someone doing so much for so many… but from my point of view those are both reasons for him to have been even more diligent about his business practices. I won’t deny it, I’m a big fan of Chabad Lubavitch, but I’m sick of hearing all the stories (likely lashon hara) about lubavitchers engaging questionable business practices to save a buck or make a buck. We need to be the light unto the nations, and that includes how we make our living.
With all that said though, yeah, this is obviously a guy that’s being used as a target in a socio-political witch-hunt, and we need to do everything we can to prevent him from the injust imprisonment sought after by those motivated by PETA or antisemitism.
I think the Rubashkin case will do more to put Jews at each others’ throats than anything in living memory.
His supporters have seen and will continue to see him as a martyr. Every setback is proof that the world runs according to their 19th century Czarist Russia stories. Every positive development is proof that their magic works and the world runs according to their 19th century Czarist Russia stories.
His detractors use him as a surrogate for every crime committed by any chared. It ends up being about all of their frustrations with the charedim.
The thing that’s really disturbing is the way this always goes. No matter who is accused he’s innocent. What’s more, he’s a tzaddik. It’s all about antisemitism, never about taking responsibility for one’s actions.
Add in the large dose of contempt that is alway heaped on the law – any law from fire regulations to murdering a police officer – and the future looks bleak for charedi Jews. They will continue to act as if the law doesn’t apply to them and receive praise from their community for acting that way. These feelings of superiority and arrogance will blind them to the very real dangers they face when they ignore the legal system. Many will walk into terrible situations and act inappropriately when they are caught out.
Jews outside these insular communities will be further estranged from them.
Wash. Rinse. Spin. Repeat.
Me? I’d say he was convicted, quite correctly, of almost ninety serious crimes. And if he doesn’t get a huge Federal sentence the State or the feds will bring out a few of the other charges they’ve been holding in reserve. He should have spent less time believing his PR and more time cooperating with the prosecution, making restitution and showing remorse before the sentencing phase. He gambled poorly and lost when the other side had a solid case. And now he’s going to go away for a very long time.
I feel sorry for him. He knew what he was doing was illegal from bank fraud to shorting his workers’ paychecks. But he didn’t think the rules applied to him. Now he’s going to find out too late, and his family will suffer for it. But I feel sorrier for the workers who got shafted, the farmers who weren’t paid and the Jews he let down.
Hi I have been following quietly for a while, I’ve noticed that you seem to have extreme distaste (at best) for orhodox jews. Where you once orthodox?
what he did was against the law. as much as I hope that he does get a fair trial and does only get what he deserve. All these video all 2:55 of it spent less then 15 seconds was spent acknolowging his CRIME! He had to break the law to save daddies business……come on he broke the law!
why compare him to the CEO of Toyota, why not compare him to … See Morethe same positions like Conrad Black. JAIL!
… See More
Cosmo Corigliano will likely wake up behind bars this month as a result of his role in inflating the earnings of CUC International Inc 10 years in jail no Parole.
There is nothing on any of these videos that really talk about how he broke the law only hoe he was such a nice guy, he gave charity, he supported schools.
where did thatr charity come from. Was it all from lega gains.
I just think we need to really be able to hear ALL sides of this story
You and A. Nuran are blinded, by your hate perhaps?
No one ever denied that he committed a crime. We are only saying he does not deserve the sentence the prosecution is advocating. Life sentence? No bail?
You foolishly compare him to Conrad Black and Cosmo Corigliano – in fact this helps prove our case. Mr. Black was convicted of stealing money and documents – yet still only got a 6 (maybe 7 – I do not recall) year sentence! Mr. Corigliano (whom I admit I do not know much about) too was accused of deliberate wide-spread fraud for personal gain and yet was only sentenced to under 4 years in prison!
I do not claim this is an antisemitic inquisition against Mr. Rubashkin, perhaps it is just a personal vendetta. But either way, any logical clear-thinking individual can only conclude that the proposed sentence is way out of proportion to his crimes – especially when compared to other people who committed worse financial crimes or even murder.
As such, any true defender of human rights (not just liberal make-believes) would do all they can to ward off this great injustice.
Thank you for bringing up his subject. As a Noahide, I get a lot of emails such as this one. The public defense in cases like this is obviously bs and an insult to anyone’s intelligence.
I know him personally, I know his kids. I’ve eaten at his house for Shabbos and Hagim. He’s a great guy who helped thousands of people financally. He once stopped me on the street to tell me to move my car so I won’t get a ticket. Im telling you he really is a great guy.
I will say this though- he took a risk in his business by hiring 273 illegal immigrants. He knew the consequences if he would get caught and unfortunatly he did. I fully understand why American Gov. is profiling his case because when 10 percent of Americans are unemployed, they need to send the message that we should’nt be hiring foreigners at the moment. Americans need those jobs, more then ever. Maybe im halachically all wrong about this but thats what i think.
That’s what flabberghasters me most: Why bother to make money illegally just to give it away for tzadakah?
Has he never heard that you cannot make a mitzwah out of an aveira? Has he never heard that it is not allowed to benefit from stolen goods? so with his apparent tzadakah he was nichshal people.
But I agree: those who took from him should give back- to him or to the ones he defrauded.
I dont think youve got the facts of the case straight. He didnt stel money from anybody. He lied on bank loans to maintain lines of credit. Wrong? Of course.
No, he has the facts right.
He deliberately defrauded the bank of in excess of $10 million. That is not including the separate money laundering counts.
What was the money laundering about?
Tax evasion?
Drug money?
Fraud money?
Um where do you think the bank gets its money from? It doesn’t magic it up. He committed fraud. It was wrong.
Should he get a life sentence? No thats probably a bit too harsh but thats up to the courts to decide.
The fact of the matter is he should have understood that being a successful high profile Jew comes with responsibilities. What happened to having to abide by the law of the land?
First of all to skeptic but jewish, anonymous, abbandoning eden and Johnny: The case isnt about illegal immigrants it is about defrauding a bank. (The fraud was uncovered as a result of a raid by INS, homeland security et al looking for illegal immigrants)
I was skeptical about the cries of anti-semitism but once the prosecution called for a life-sentence it is the only thing that makes any sense to me.
“I was skeptical about the cries of anti-semitism but once the prosecution called for a life-sentence it is the only thing that makes any sense to me.”
Wow. Life sentence is the only thing that makes sense? I hope I do not end up in your court one day for a late payment on a ticket or something…
you misunderstood, I meant that the cries of anti-semitsm is the only thing that makes sense to me.
I guess i should’ve written “they are”
Ha! I was so eager in my response I failed to comprehend. I apologize.
So, you can show that the Federal Sentencing rules are being misapplied? Or you don’t like the result?
I don’t think Life is appropriate here, but unless you can show that the Sentencing rules are being abused, your objection is with Congress, and not with the Prosecutors.
we agree “I don’t think Life is appropriate here” yay!
It doesnt matter what
never mind i was in middle of typing and decided not to bother
Yes I can show that federal sentencing rules are being misapplied, not on my own though, as I am no lawyer, but with the help of my friends Janet Reno, William Barr, Richard Thornburgh, Edwin Meese III, Ramsey Clark and Nicholas Katzenbach: “We cannot fathom how truly sound and sensible sentencing rules could call for a life sentence — or anything close to it — for Mr. Rubashkin, a 51-year-old, first-time, nonviolent offender.”
That quote doesn’t say the sentencing rules are being misapplied. It just says they aren’t sound and sensible.
Why would they write to a judge that the sentencing rules arent sound and sensible? They obviously meant that the rules are sound and sensible, but were being missapplied.
In case you dont like my understanding of this, i qoute from todays ny times “The former Justice Department officials questioned the interpretation by Stephanie M. Rose, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Iowa, of the federal criminal sentencing guidelines that would apply to Mr. Rubashkin’s white-collar crime. “
Why would the write to the judge that the sentencing rules aren’t sound and sensible? Because since a Supreme Court Ruling in 2004, the rules have been optional.
What you find obvious, I find, frankly, not so much. And unless you can find a quote from them that says the rules are being misapplied, then at best you are offering someone (in this case, a reporter) who agrees with your interpretation.
If the rules are optional why apply them to a first time non-violent offender?
Regardless this is all besides the point, we can all agree that the former AG’s feel Rubashkin should not be given a life-sentence. As to whether it’s because they feel the rules are’nt sound or that they are being missaplied, that is completly irrelevant.
They are optional for all offenders.
And no, it isn’t irrelevant. It goes directly to the claim that the request by the prosecution for a life sentence is driven by anti-semitism. A claim you made at the start of this chain.
If they are following the Sentencing Guidelines as passed by Congress, then your notion that anti-semitism is the only reason to request a life sentence falls.
My notion is sound If the guidlines are optional why apply them here?
They are optional on the Judge.
Some history.
Congress passed mandatory sentencing rules.
In 2004, the Supreme Court ruled that Judges were not required to follow them.
I am unaware of any ruling that says that Prosecutors are supposed to no longer use them in their paperwork with the court.
Stop attacking the straw-man hes really a friendly guy once you get to know him. I’m not trying to convince you of anything agree that a life sentence is inappropriate. As to the Prosecutor’s reasoning for asking we can analyse all we want.
I have my interpretation (aided by a reporter) you have yours.
Now dont forget to sign the petition
Well, it turns out the Prosecutors do have leeway to deviate from the Sentencing Rules.
They just requested the sentence be 25 years instead of life.
That video just made me really angry. It doesn’t matter how great a person you are – if you commit 86 counts of federal bank fraud, you deserve punishment. That’s the way it works in a country with rule of law. The comparison to the Toyota CEO is also totally specious, the cases have nothing to do with one another. In one case there was knowing and intentional fraud. In the other case there was unintentional mechanical failure and the products were recalled. Nice try Chabad, but that’s not very convincing.
Life in prison does seem a pretty harsh punishment, but I doubt he’ll actually get it.
nowhere in the video did it say he didnt deserve punishment.
It seems like you didnt follow the Toyota story at all. They knew about the failures months before the recall (go to nytimes.com search “toyota” its a nice way to scan the development of that story just by scrolling through the headlines)
Now please rewatch the video, so you wont be as angry
I don’t agree. Toyota didn’t take the problem seriously enough, and you can certainly blame them for that, but at the most that’s negligence. Still quite different from intentional wrongdoing.
Oops, sorry, that was me.
Couldnt agree more they are completly differnt negligence resulting in fatalities vs. defrauding a bank so you can stay afloat financialy hoping to be able to ride out the recession and balance your accounts. Both are wrong, but you are correct they are very different.
Also, isn’t the CEO of Toyota JAPANESE? We have no jurisdiction over him for selling bad good here in the US except to fine him.
Has anyone read all the charges against him? Are fraud and illegal immigants the only things against him?
just fraud the charges he was convicted of dont include illegal immigrants
Rubashkin, 50, faces sentencing today for his conviction last year on 86 financial fraud charges. Defense attorneys have asked for a prison term no greater than six years; prosecutors argue that Rubashkin’s combined actions merit a life sentence.
Rubashkin’s supporters have mounted an aggressive letter-writing and public relations campaign to push for a lighter sentence. Defense lawyers also presented Chief Judge Linda Reade with a letter signed by 24 prominent government officials, including former U.S. Attorneys General Janet Reno, Ramsey Clark and Edwin Meese III.
Prosecutors describe the campaign as an orchestrated effort to distract attention from Rubashkin’s crimes. The U.S. attorney’s office in Cedar Rapids has received more than 1,300 e-mails from Rubashkin supporters with “consistent threads of misinformation,” spokesman Bob Teig said.
Teig, who usually declines to comment about Rubashkin and the Agriprocessors Inc. case, said misconceptions have grown so widespread that prosecutors decided to respond. “The focus has really been skewed, trying to paint the defendant as a victim,” Teig said.
Rubashkin’s backers have shown continued support for the former executive since his November conviction in Sioux Falls, S.D. Their efforts include a “Justice for Sholom” website, press releases from a New York public relations firm and prayer vigils in major U.S. cities.
I just carefully read through all the comments here and, while I agree with those such as A.Nuran, who get angry at orthodoxy because case after case makes the news and it seems that those communities ignore the laws and refuse to see the dangers of doing so, I do hope that the punishment for Rubashkin will fit the crime. To say that life in prison for fraud is excessive would be an understatement. I hope his sentence is fair.
“those communities ignore the laws and refuse to see the dangers of doing so”
There are two cases that i can assume you are referring two (not exactly case after case, but lets leave that alone for now) from “those communities”. One is Rubashkin with which you seem to agree with “those communities”.
So basically you have qualms with “those communities” about one case, and you just labeled them as ignoring the law??!!! Because they asked to Martin Grossman’s sentence from death commuted to life imprisonment they are ignoring the law??!!
Girl, what are you smoking?
Touched a nerve, did I? Don’t get all defensive, that wasn’t my point. And try not to assume, ‘cuz you know what happens when you assume…
I will go so far as to ignore the personal attack and admit that I did overgeneralize. What I should have said was “those individuals” not “communities”
On the contrary. I did not attack you personally. I merely blamed the bigoted comment on an outside inhibitor.
So, “Girl, what are you smoking?” was not a personal attack?
That’s right it was an attack on the thing you’re smoking.
But all kidding aside, c’mon. “girl, what are you smoking?” is not a personal attack, it’s a way of saying that i strongly disagree with you. It’s like saying “are you crazy?”. It doesn’t actually mean that you’re crazy, it means that your comment was a ridiculous comment. But I’m sure you already know this, and that you’s trying to deflect. That’s OK. I don’t have a problem with that.
Wrong. I stand by the gist of my comment, minus the overgeneralization.
Black people kill. Actually only some black people kill, but i still stand by the gist of my comment, minus the generalization of course.
HUH??
Ridiculous comparison “Anonymous.” To spell it out for the especially gifted – those who break the law (for whatever reason) need to be punished. However, the punishment should be fitting. That is my point and I stand by that.
Wow Esther again you didnt understand what someone wrote Anonymous (not me) was reffering to your commnent: “those communities ignore the laws and refuse to see the dangers of doing so,” you then mitigated it to “I should have said was “those individuals” not “communities”” and said you “stand by the gist of my comment, minus the overgeneralization.”
Nothing to do with punishing law breakers
“I stand by the gist of my comment, minus the overgeneralization.”
Which implies that the gist of your comment was that “0people” in “those communities” do things wrong, but the overgenerelization was “those communities”.
Hence my comparison stands as a fair analogy.
I love it that even when you agree with the Orthodox you still feel the need to criticise us. Oh well welcome to the right side, we are glad to have you aboard.
Be careful with judging other people, specifically a person like Sholom Rubashkin who is a philanthropist and full with acts of kindness and hospitality.
Somebody in this forum said he deserves punishment because he committed 86 counts of federal bank fraud. This is prejudice and ignorance. Please get the facts right. All these counts are baseless, unproven, and ridiculous.
Did you know that in order to aggravate the appearance of his offense for publicity purposes, the prosecutors returned seven successive indictments, constantly increasing the number of counts until the total was 163. No other employer who was the subject of an ICE immigration raid between 2006-2008 had seven superseding indictments returned against him with ever-increasing numbers of criminal counts.
Even other Attorney Generals wrote to the Judge that the guidelines of sentencing have problems and cannot be applied literally. However, that is what the prosecutors are doing.
Do you want to know what really is happening here? People do not like Jews, specifically not Orthodox Jews and specifically not Chassidic Jews with beards. This is Anti-Semitism in its highest form. Americans don’t like to hear this. But this is the truth. And I think the judicial system has a material flaw. Maybe instead of focusing on health reform, Obama should first improve the Judicial system. Something is not right here.
Sholom Rubashkin is a selfless person who has helped thousands and thousands of Jews and non-Jews in need. He might have made some mistakes but this was to help others. He did not benefit personally from any of these wrongdoings. And if he did then please prove it! But here nothing is proven. They came up with all kinds of accusations trying to increase the number of counts as much as possible (using corrupted guidelines that cannot be applied literally according to other US Attorney Generals). All this with the purpose to portray him as a criminal. People should think: Well if he committed 86 counts, then he must really deserve punishment. This is exactly what somebody here said. And the ignorant and naïve people fall into this trap, as well as the jury.
He himself lived in a very modest house. He gave donations left and right helping other people. His plant was super clean and modern. I know this from someone who visited the plant and interviewed the employees. The workers loved working for him. Even the prosecutors’ witnesses (workers) only had something good to say about him even though they were threatened by the prosecutors to speak against Rubashkin or face 10 years prison. Another example how corrupt this US judicial system is.
Mark Turkan, a former president of First Bank Mortgage of St. Louis, misapplied $35 million in loans, costing the bank roughly $25 million. He was sentenced earlier this year to one year and one day in prison. The CEO of Toyota withdrew information from the public, which caused many deaths and he gets away with a fine. But Sholom Rubashkin who actually did a lot of good to the world, they want to put him in prison for life. What is it, if not anti-semitism?
Mr. Rubashkin did not get a fair trial. Did you know that the judge sent the jury out whenever the defense brought in its witnesses to testify about his generosity and his high character. Is this fair? Did you know that the Judge did not allow the defense to mention to the Jury that Mr. Rubashkin has an autistic child that needs his father? Is this fair? No politicians (like the mayor of Postville and the governor of Iowa) were allowed to testify in favor of Rubashkin. Is this fair? I think the Judge should be independent. But here the Judge herself was one of the prosecutors and who was behind the raid. Is this fair? I think the Judge should be impeached. And I personally think this judicial system in the US has a serious problem if a Judge is able to misuse his/her powers. The trial was biased from the very beginning. All these accusations (money laundering, drugs, weapons, etc) were baseless, ridiculous, and false. They intentionally fabricated lies after lies to get him in prison as long as possible. Nothing is proven. All rumors and lies.
Side note: There are people that were persuaded by the media and are against Rubashkin because they heart about animal mistreatments on his plant. Again, all these claims are false. Rubashkin provided kosher meat and kosher slaughter is in truth the most humane form of killing an animal. Clinical trials have shown that a cow undergoing kosher slaughter does not experience pain but dies instantly. The movements after the slaughter are just reflexes. This has been proven scientifically. Thus, this case is not just against Rubashkin, this is not just against Kosher Slaughter, this case is against Judaism, using Rubashkin as a sin goat. This case is a case against all Jews and I hope people wake up.
Regarding Mr.Rubashkin’s conviction on bank fraud and the subsequent request that he be given what amounts to a life sentence is ridiculous. He never requested more from the bank then his original $35 million dollar line of credit. He might have overestimated the receivables but he always made timely payments with interest on all his loans. Even the bank acknowledged receiving approximately twenty-one million dollars in profit from the interest payments throughout the life span of the loan granted Mr. Rubashkin. The bank was more than thrilled to continue having Mr. Rubashkin as a client.
The reason Mr. Rubashkin discontinued reimbursing the bank for the loans was due to the highly publicized inexplicable nature of the government’s raid on his plant, which resulted in the entire enterprise being forced into bankruptcy, he was left with absolutely no funds.
Did you know that he could have sold the company (after the raid) to pay off the loan? There were investors interested in buying. But the prosecutors hindered any potential sale. They threatened to prosecute any willing buyer. Thus, the prosecutors themselves caused the bankruptcy and the resulting loss to the bank. They could have minimized the loss if they wanted to. They are the ones that are really to blame.
The prosecutors not only destroyed Rubashkins’ business. They ruined the local economy of the community of Postville. Rubashkin’s plant was the only major business in this town. They are the ones that really mistreated the workers and caused increased unemployment. In my opinion, the prosecutors are the ones that really belong in prison for all the evil they did to an innocent and noble person. May we see the true judgment by the G-d Almighty speedily in our days!
“Doing things that are against the law are ok if you’re a good person and give enough money to people who deserve it and didn’t mean to break the law too badly.”
Sorry but in America, your brownie points and rationalizations do not affect your prosecution for crimes commited. Only a fool would say Rubashkin was a bad person. But it takes a real tzaddik to say “Yes, what I did was against the law, and I would like to own up to that.” There was a Rebbe who was recently arrested for money laundering. That was his case, and unlike the fake frummies who deny, cover up, and excuse, he admitted his mistake and agreed to serve his prison time. Breaking the law, whatever the reason, is enough to put you in jail, especially if you get caught and your reasons and side points do not deny that you broke it.
You couldnt be more wrong. Rationalizations are always used in determining how to sentence someone as they should. For example a poor person who steals food to feed his starving family would get a lot less of a sentence than a rich person who steals.(halacha makes no such distinction btw)
Yes that is true. However, I never said rationalizations didn’t affect sentencing, but the majority of these people want all the charges dropped completely because he is a “tzaddik” or your favorite complimentary appellation. See the above post where half of it is completely justifying the crimes in total, not saying that he should have a lighter sentence for being fairly honest about his bank fraud.
I certainly have been hurt from the R fiasco, and I wish the raid had never happened, but calling it Anti-Semitism is simply incorrect and the whole thing could have been avoided if the plant had never broken the law in the first place. Unfortunately the frum business acumen seems to dictate that if you think the government isn’t watching, go ahead.
I agree with you that there is a consequence for what he did. But not life. A life sentence has one conjuring images of rapists and murderers, international drug cartel kingpins and white-collar criminals guilty of gargantuan fraud, like Bernie Madoff. Unlike Madoff, he had no Hamptons estate, no fancy yacht, and no Manhattan penthouse. By all accounts he and his family lived in incredibly modest circumstances. Unlike AIG executives, he did not cost the government billions in bailouts and then get a bonus. The time that Rubashkin serves must be fair and just.
If Mark Turkan, a former president of First Bank Mortgage of St. Louis, misapplied $35 million in loans, costing the bank roughly $25 million and was sentenced to one year, then why do they want to sentence him for life? He should not sit more than Mr. Turkan. And he is sitting already since November because they disallowed him bail, which was another discrimination. Somebody mentioned the prison where he is sitting only gives haircuts on Saturday. As he keeps Shabbos, Rubashkin asked to get a haircut on another day. Do you think they allowed it? He did not have a haircut since 6 months. He has the right to be treated as a human being. Instead he is being discriminated. This is not a great country. May Moshiach come speedily now!
One of the great myths is that life in prison is reserved for the “worst of the worst”.
There are people in America serving life for stealing cookies, or a pair of shoes. I am not exaggerating.
Now, I happen to think this is a shameful thing, but it is wrong to claim that it doesn’t happen under American law.
“You mess with the bulls you get the horns”. If you choose to live and dress like an orthodox Jew, and then proceed to do illegal things AND THEN GET CAUGHT, don’t whine that you are “not being treated as a human being”. That’s the way the cookie crumbles, as you are first looked at as a DIRTY STINKING THIEVING CHRIST KILLING JEW when you’re in Iowa. You say this is not a great country for not being allowed a haircut for your fellow Lubav? Tough. Go move to Israel. If you and any other Lubav’s live in the USA, do illegal things and then get caught, I hope you all get water boarded, raped, infected with HIV, and given life sentences. It is not YOUR RIGHT to read Tanya every day, wear two sets of tfillin, buy oil paintings of the Rebbe, and STEAL MONEY FROM BANKS. You want to steal? Go to Israel and join the Russian and Morrocan mafias there. If you steal here and get caught, MAY THE WRATH OF EVERY JEW HATING JUDGE AND JURY BE BROUGHT DOWN UPON YOU.
Im not sure why people who disagree with you should leave the country. Last I checked in the US people are entitled to their own opinions, and freedom of expression isnt only tolerated but encouraged. If you think everybody has to agree with you and the government all the time, maybe you should move to Iran where that sort of thing is encouraged.
Though I think your level of antisemitism would make even the ayatolahs uncomfortable.
perhaps Michal you should re-read the post you replied to. I am not an anti-semite, quite the contrary, I’m a very proud Jew and Zionist. I merely was stating that frummies should suffer the consequences if they do illegal things and get caught. In my line of work, it would be very easy to steal in a myriad of ways. But I don’t. Why not? First, its immoral. Second, its against the Torah. Third, its illegal. If a frummie thinks he or she is above the Torah and the laws of the country he lives in, then he should get punished, and if a harsher punishment is what happens because he is frum, so be it. Sholom Rubashkin, I curse you and your zombie-eyed Lubavitch supporters, may you all rot.
Anony — I agree with your strong stance, however “it takes a real tzaddik” is wrong. A tzaddik is a righteous person. Someone who knowingly committed almost one hundred counts of bank fraud and then hypothetically would “own up to it”, IS NOT a righteous person.
Well call it a repentant Tzaddik if you wish. A Tzaddik should certainly avoid breaking the law if it is not contradictory with halacha. My point was that it takes a bigger man to stand up and realize what he did was wrong. Fighting charges of things you know you are guilty for left and right is not exactly the proper demeanor here.
A “Tzaddik” does not commit crimes. End of story. At best, he would be a CAUGHT “repentant” Yid. Thats it. Not a Tzaddik. Don’t throw that word around lightly, true Tzaddikim are angels on earth. A greedy pig who knowingly lies and cheats and then hypothetically admits he did wrong IS NOT A TZADDIK!
What he did was wrong. I don’t think anyone can defend it. He broke the law, and there are certain guidelines for sentencing. It’s not anti-semitic…it’s just the way it is.
A life sentence is harsh, but he won’t get that. It’s what the prosecution asks for because they know there will be some bargaining. So they ask for the most possible, and the defense asks for the least, and they’ll settle somewhere in between.
It’s a shame he didn’t express any remorse. He could have ended up with a much much lighter sentence. Someone gave him bad advice.
I feel bad for his family. For him, too. He seems like a nice guy…who broke some laws.
After reading through the comments (and watching the video) It seems like everybody is in agreement: ie he broke the law and should be punished though a life-sentence is excessive.
Does anybody disagree with that?
Let him rot in jail for life
you arent really disagreeing ie you dont think he deserves a life sentence. You just hope that he’ll get it so that he’ll serve as a warning. (Which again, I dont think the American justice system allows for the sentencing of a Jew in order to serve as a warning for other Jews)
He DESERVES a life sentence by being an outwardly dressed religious Jew who committed nearly one hundred acts of bank fraud. That means he knew that if he got caught, it would be an enormous public chilul Hashem. And he did it anyway. So, ROT IN JAIL FOR LIFE, Shlomo.
Um last I checked it isnt illegal to dress as a religous Jew while commiting bank- fraud.
Um you missed the whole point tembel
Isnt there a midrash about the first thing asked of a person at the gates of gan eden is if they were honest in their business dealings?
Personally, i dont know why they have not called for death sentence, now if we could only get the rest of chabad lubavitch to that sentence the world would be a better place and moshiach would come, because we fulfilled G-ds order to smite the idolator
The above comment was a prank, because i left my computer open and somebody cam and commented that
Chris, that is true but a lot of people feel that if they concentrate on commandments which are rational/humanitarian then they are not as religious as they would be if they would concentrate on the uniquely religious commandments, such as praying or learning Torah. Another example is that in halacha giving charity to you relatives takes precedence to giving charity to strangers but some Rabbis feel that if you give charity to your relatives how are you different from non-religious people who help their own anyway. So they think that one must balance out charity to strangers with charity to one’s kin. I think this makes sense but it expresses the general idea that doing uniquely religious rituals is what pleases God more, as opposed to doing rational and humanitarian deeds. The same goes for doing honest business. Some people feel it’s not uniquely religious to be an honest businessman.
“Some people feel it’s not uniquely religious to be an honest businessman.” – what? Everything leading up to that sentence made logical sense, although I may disagree with that logic, but that last part lost me completely.
What would be uniquely religius then? I mean, as applied to business practices?
Esther, the uniquely religious commandments would be the ones a humanist would *not* do. Secular and humanist businessmen also understand the need for doing business honestly because of legal and general ethical considerations. People who aren’t Orthodox Jews are often honest businessmen. But secularists don’t put on tefillin. So putting on tefillin is more uniquely religious than being an honest businessman.
Uniquely religious would be giving 10% charity off your income. There are philanthropists but giving 10% of everything you earn is uniquely religious.
So, if I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that being an honest businessman is not enough on its own. In order to be uniquely religious, an Orthodox Jewish honest businessman should also be giving 10% of earnings to charity. Correct?
What you said is true. Accoding to halacha one needs to do everything, but my point was that Orthodox Jews view the uniquely religious commandments as more important than those values which they share with the rest of the world. That’s why you find someone who is very strict on kosher, shabbos, mikva, prayer, learning Torah, and who at the same time doesn’t pay his workers on time or at all, avoids taxes, disrespects other people. It’s because the emphasis is give to the uniquely religious aspects of Judaism.
At this point, we’re way off the specific topic of the Rubashkin case, but still, this is worth repeating…
It is this exact aspect that turns me off to orthodoxy (and, I imagine, is what A. Nuran was getting at). Rather than being an all around good human being and going the extra mile in order to be uniquely religious, what you’re telling me happens is the following:
A hypothetical orthodox individual (being seriously politically correct so nobody gets their panties in a bunch) will try very hard to live the proper Jewish life – kosher, shabbos, learning Torah, etc. – and will, at the same time, not bat an eyelash at mistreating others, disrespecting them, using their dire circumstances to make a buck off them…the list goes on.
Wrong! A truly Orthodox person does his/her best to keep all of the torah.
You on the otherhand discard what you dont like, thats what makes you less Jewish. You dont adhere (or even claim to adhere) to Judaism you just pick and choose stuff you should do anyway and label yourself a “good jew” while lumping all Orthodox Jews toghether as a result of a few high profile cases of financial wrong-doing by some members, even though they admit what they did is wrong. I know you dont like hearing it but there I’ve said it, now who has their panties in a bunch?
Calm yourself. You’re just angry that I stopped arguing with you on this very subject in another post. As far as I’m concerned, that argument was going nowhere. Its a free country and you’re entitled to your opinion. I will respectfully disagree and leave it at that.
Oh, and, don’t for one second, think that you’re affecting my panties in any way.
Shoot, not even a little?
dont worry im not angry and we werent really arguing you were just not understanding my point. I miss you
Yes, clearly you do. Good luck with that 🙂
You’re right about that but there’s a lot of people who go around calling themselves frum but in reality aren’t. Like anyone who’s ever had a “tefillin date.”
Holy Smirnoff! I would have to differ. How loyal is this person to Hashem that he puts on tefillin to daven and believes as much as six impossible things before breakfast.
I’m not talking about putting on tefillin. People should put on tefillin. I’m talking about tefillin dates. I think it’s
hypocritical to be having sex outside of marriage but still going around calling yourself frum.
https://www.frumsatire.net/2009/03/26/tefillin-dates-are-good/
“less Jewish”? Sorry pal, but if you are born a Jew, to Jewish parents, and you eat bacon every day, you are no “less Jewish”, than the Grand Rebbe of any chassidic sect. You arrogant Flatbush fuck.
My dear fellow NEwYorker, allow me to explain though i’m not sure youre willing to listen.
That was a reference to a conversation I had with Esther on a previous blog.
There are two aspects to Judaism in regard to the nationalistic aspect of course youre right. However in regard to the religious aspect if someone doesnt adhere to the religion, it would seem (to me at least) that they are less Jewish.
For example take Mr. ploni almoni atheist (was born jewish), on a questionare that asks for religion he writes none or atheist (I’d write Jewish). Well is he less Jewish? Again from a nationalistic standpoint – of course no matter how badly he wants out once a Jew, always a Jew. From a Religious aspect – he claims he isnt Jewish, who am I to argue? Therfore I maintain that as far as the Jewish religion goes, if someone is addmitedly non-observent (Im not talking about conservative or reform who claim they have a different way of practicing Judaism, that is a differnt disscussion) then by one deffinition of Judaism (the religion) they are less Jewish.
I’ll give you another example just because there is too much room for confusion:
Suppose you have two guys Mr. A attended the finest universities but never payed attention ever studied just enough to pass a test, and now has a degree. Vs. Mr B. who never set foot in a college yet spent time poring over various works in the local library (think Will hunting). Now who is better educated? If it is meant in the sense of who has a diploma stating that they are educated that would be Mr. A, however Mr. B certainly knows a lot more. My point is It all depends on what is meant by “educated” or in this case “Jewish.” Since Judaism is (partly) a religion I maintain that by admitedly not adhering to said religion, that person is less Jewish (in the religous sense)
Yes, that’s basically my point. I’m not saying that all Orthodox people are that way, nor majority, nor some. I don’t know the exact number. But there is a formidable group of people who live this way. This is the way some people are brought up. Who’s to blame? Who cares, perhaps Rubashkin!
I think it is completely flawed to say “Tefilin are typically jewish, therefore it is more important for a Jew to wear Tefilin rather than to be honest in business”.
I think the whole aim of Davening, Tefilin, Mezuzot, Kriat ha Torah, Limud Torah, you name it, is to remind us that we should be decent human beings who serve the creator to the best of our abilities.
1) If you pick Tefilin and leave “Hin Tzedek” aside, you are picking and choosing, which is exactely what you claim the “chareidim” do not do.
2) If you learn Torah the whole day and it does not even teach you to be honest in business, what are you learning for?
3) If the ones learning Torah become known for advocating fraud, which conclusions will be drawn about the torah? That’s why this kind of Behavious is often termed “Chilul hashem”. Because people will say “What awful religion is this Torah-thing”…
And it’s not that a religion is good or bad. It is the way this religion is put into practice. You can take the most beautiful and noble idea and and derive from it the most barbaric course of actions. Love can become free love. Democracy can mean defending the rights of terrorists. Learning can become a way to exercise power or a tool for spreading dangerous propaganda. Judaism has wonderful ideas but the way they are applied in life is often surprising.
Esther: This is off the topic but I think it is important. Let me try to explain something.
I don’t like titles like orthodox, ultra, conservative etc. What matters is Jewish law, i.e., Halacha. And there are two aspects in Halacha . There are mitzvos (commandments) between man and man and between man and G-d. If this is the discussion you had with Metatron then I can affirm you and 99% of all Jews that consider themselves to be religous and keep the commandments of the Torah as it is codexed in the Shulchan Aruch (Halacha) will agree with me that both parts have the same status and importance. There is no such thing as pick and choose. A true religous Jew that wants to keep the Torah places the same importance to all Mitzvos. The Torah has commandments that are logical and that we can understand (Mishpatim). These are laws like to not steal, do not murder, love your neighbor, etc. And there are commmandments like not wearing shatnes (Chukim) , which we do not understand with common logic. All commandments are equally important as they are part of G-d’s wisdom. It says in Pirkei Avos (In the Paths of Our Fathers): “Be as careful in (the performance of a seemingly) minor mitzvah as of a major one, for you do not know the reward given for the mitzvos.”
It also says “Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa says: Whenever a person’s good deeds exceed his wisdon, his wisdom will endure. But when a person’s wisdom exceeds his good deeds, his wisdom will not endure.”
Chassidus teaches if we do not follow the commandments between man and man, we also do not follow the commandments between man and G-d, since they are all given by G-d. So really all commandments (incl. Mishpatim) are between man and G-d. It is just that some of them (Mishpatim) have an additional aspect that they are also between man and man. The bottom line, we have to work on all of them. Are we perfect? No. People make mistakes. But the Tora is perfect and we have to strive getting better every day by increasing acts of kindness and learning more Tora. Learning Tora is very important as this will lead to more Mitvzos and through the observance of Mitzvos, we become a more refined and better person.
Again, nobody is perfect. But fortunately, G-d places Tzadikim (righous people) in each generation who are role models. One of them was the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Our job is to strive to be like them as best as we can.
Now, I happened to live in a very religous neighorhood in Monsey. Chessed (kindness) is an extremely important aspect in this religous and orthodox world. It is not just davening, learning Tora, Shabbos, and Kashrus. Where I live there is a lot of chessed. People give a lot of donations. According to Jewish law, one should give between 10% and 20%. 10% is the minimum. According to the Baal HaTanya, we should even give more than 20% if we can. Rubashkin was an extremely kind person by giving a lot more than 20% of his earnings. My wife was donating blood on a regular basis. We have neighbors that take care of a sick child (and they already have 8 of their own). There is so much outreach where people go out of themselves to help another Jew by dedicating their time and energy to help another Yid. I could go on and on and on. The Lubavitch Shliach in Teaneck donated his kidney after the organ scandal. Does the media mention all this? They only mention the bad.
When people are in need, people help out here. Rubashkin is a good example. He is a Jew and it is the duty of every Jew to support Rubashkin. How much more so as he did so much kindness and goodness.
There is one point I would like to add. I am an accountant. I see the financial statements of many businesses. Most of my clients are actually not Jewish or secular Jews. I can tell you one thing. If you hear that some frum guys did some bad things with taxes. Let me tell you this. The others are not better. That’s why I don’t like when people judge others. Are these people that critize Rubashkin really so honest in their business dealings? They are not better,. It can happen to anybody. If the government wants to get you, they get you. So my suggestion to everybody here is to be careful in judging others. As it says in Pirke Avos “Judge every person favarably.” And it says “Do not condemn your fellowman until you have stood in his place.” In the meantime, let’s pray for Rubashkin as this is the duty of every Jew and this is part of the Mitzva “Love your fellow as yourself.”, which is a mitzva between man and man.
So, to be clear, your argument is “Well, Orthodox Jews are no more likely to be crooks than anyone else”?
Even if stipulated to be true (and I have no way of knowing), it is clearly observable that the honors and defense given to Orthodox crooks (so long as they dress appropriately and gave the right money to the right causes) speak to the values of the community, and not in a good way.
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain your view and some basics (some of which I already knew, but appreciate it nonetheless). Its refreshing to see someone make a point without being confrontational.
I do have some feedback. First off, see my comment below where I posted a link to the petition I signed to help Rubashkin. The bottom line is, he’s a fellow Jew and of course I’d like to help. I do not want to have an example made of him for the world to see how frum Jews are dealt with when they break the law. On the other hand, he did break the law and while I am fully for him being dealt with fairly, I certainly do not think that his business dealings qualify him as a tzadik and a role model. Not for his family, who I feel for and who will undoubtedly be affected by this, not for the public at large. That’s not to erase every good deed he’s ever done – I understand he’s done many – but I am having trouble absorbing the fact that a person can give more than 20% to charity and help people while at the same time exploiting them. Or did he think that the goyim he had working for him were not people? Or people, but not worthy of the same respect he treats fellow Jews with? I don’t know, but, under the circumstances these are legitimate questions.
Esther: Thanks for the compliment. As far as I know, the non-Jewish workers liked him a lot. Proof: Even the prosecutors’ witnesses (workers) only had something good to say about him even though they were threatened by the prosecutors to speak against Rubashkin or face 10 years prison. (see my first post above). In my community lives somebody who went there and also spoke to the workers. He thought (based on the reports of others) he would see an old and ugly place. He was so superprised seeing facilities that were super clean, modern, with cafeteria, etc. The workers reported they were happy with their compensation and the working conditions. Also, think logically: If they would not like it, they would be working for somebody else.
I doubt illegal immigrants have many choices. Yes, they were happy because working, let alone in a clean place, is far better than not working at all. I also think they were happy because they don’t know better. But he does.
I’ll give you an example from my own personal life. When my family immigrated to the U.S. I was around 14. My mom wanted my brother and I to work part time so she suggested we walk around our neighborhood and ask if they need help in, say, neighboring stores. An office supply store owner was all too happy to use our help. We were on our feet for five hours doing busy work — stapling packets of papers together (no collating equip. in the store I guess). After five hours he paid us five dollars each. Granted, that’s five dollars more than we would have made if we didn’t go into his store, but I think you’ll agree we were still being exploited as the minimum wage per hour then was a little over five bucks. Same applies here. The workers may be happy but they were still unquestionably exploited.
“He is a Jew and it is the duty of every Jew to support Rubashkin.”. So ANY Jew who is accused of ANY crime, no matter how henious, should be supported by other Jews? Or is it only LUBAVITCH Jews who should be supported, as its obvious that you are a Lubav? You Lubav’s are like BT’s, sometimes even more looney. Take your preaching, your “Harebbe Hamoshiach Leolam Voed” kippa, and shove it. I ONLY WISH THE WORST FOR SHLOMO RUBASHKIN AND OTHER JEWISH CROOKS LIKE HIM. LET ALL JEWISH CROOKS AND PEDOPHILES, NO MATTER IF THEY ARE SECULAR OR CHASSIDIC, GET THE HARSHEST PUNISHMENTS FROM THE US GOVERNMENT.
Actually, NewYorker, yes we should. In fact, its a huge mitzva to help save jews who are captive in any way possible. Captive includes jail.
And yes, rubashkin deserves to get a fair sentence, aka no more than 1 year for bank fraud. That is what the frum community you hate so much is doing. They are not trying to get him out of his potential sentence, they are only trying to ensure a FAIR trial in a situation where there is alot of bias.
Also understand that while his case is just another white collar crime, it is actually a direct attack on the jewish community as a whole–not just frummies. PETA and their associates are attacking kashrus. They want to ultimately outlaw shechittah. In their mind, it is inhumane to kill any animal, but they feel shechittah is actually even more inhumane than other slaughtering.
PETA feels that shechittah is inhumane despite clinical tests that it is the most humane in that the animal dies instantly. That is where we see the anti-semitic overtures of an otherwise ethical organization.
You, NewYorker should not be bashing frum jews for whatever pre-concieved misconceptions about the community you have, you should, however take a stand against an unfair prosecution that is clearly not motivated by justice and the law.
This prosecution affects you. Do you want america to be like switzerand where shechittah is illegal? Do you want your favorite steak to triple in price because we have to import it? It is important that Jews do not let their fellow Jews get a sentence they do not deserve.
Right. I forgot, this whole thing started as a conspiracy between PETA, the Bush Administration, and a Butcher’s union.
Yeah, those groups always work together, we should have known.
One year for that level of bank fraud?
Really?
Serious?
Esther: Please see my reply below.
Esther: Not that I want to have the last word. I don’t know how much the workers were compensated and whether they were exploited. Thus, better I don’t say anything. As an accoutant, I have seen firms where they paid their workers a minimum wage and cash on top. Thus, it might look low on payroll but not when looking at the total. Again, I am not making any connection because I don’t know. I give you the last word.
Metatron,
Whatever some people may feel, giving priority to one mitzvah while violating another is an excuse. I cant say “well I put on tefilin this morning so its OK to take a kickback from a vendor at work”. Did HaShem or our Rabbis give us some blanket license to be do wrong by our fellow man? Obviously not. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
American Jews, and in particular, American Orthodox Jews, should be very careful not to do anything that even smells like an illegality. Look at what happened with the pigs in the Deal, NJ scandal. From that bust, one frummie is accused of selling organs for transplants. Because of that lowlife, the ENTIRE EUROPEAN and MIDDLE EASTERN press has come up with a 21st century blood libel, that Israelis secretly kill or kidnap Palestinians to get their organs for Jews who need them for a transplant. See what ONE PIECE OF GARBAGE LOWLIFE FRUM SCUMBAG did? Do you see the domino effect he caused? Same with Rubashkin. Secular Jews, American Gentiles, and sometimes the entire world looks at one ONE Orthodox Jew has done that was illegal or immoral, and draws their own conclusions on an entire group of people. Let Rubashkin rot in jail for life. Let his sentence be a warning to other Jews, orthodox or not, that if they are thinking of doing something illegal, perhaps they should not, as look at the harsh sentence Rubashkin got.
Of course Jews shouldnt steal. That being said be careful not to sound like you are justifying antisemitism. Antisemites will always find something about us that they dont like, its not our job to tiptoe around as if we are terrified of them. (Ironicaly this goes against many shmuzen ive heard in yeshiva.) For example was it Sharon’s fault that the intifada broke out when he walked on har habayis, or was it Hrshel Greenspan’s fault that kristalnacht occured? I maintain that it was not in both case it is obvious that they (the arabs and nazis) had planned the violence for a while and were merely looking for an excuse to begin them. Rubashkin did defraud banks but dont justify anybodys labeling of an entire community based on that.
Judging a community by its wrongdoers is wrong.
Judging a community by how it reacts to wrongdoing in its midst is not.
Do you believe a life-sentence is appropriate for his crime? If you dont you are squarely among the Orthodox in this regard
No, I’m not squarely among the Orthodox in this regard.
I think he is guilty of numerous crimes (look at all of the Orthodox posts on various forums and in schools and in meetings claiming he is purely innocent).
I don’t claim that “everyone” commits fraud.
I don’t claim that it’s a giant conspiracy to get the Jews.
I don’t proclaim him a new Dreyfus.
I think he should get a sentence of between 15 and 25 years in prison. Show me a consensus in the Orthodox community that that is a fair and just sentence for his crimes. You cannot.
Great!!! Dont forget to voice your opinion that you hope he doesnt get a life sentence. Ther are numerous online-petitions you can sign. Make sure to choose one (as I have) that doesnt say he is innocent.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Waronkosher
I just posted a link to a petition I signed in relation to this case. Unfortunately, its awaiting moderation.
Another person not based in reality. If I walk around the South Bronx or Bed-Sty at three in the morning (as opposed to Monsey for example), being white, I stand a good chance of being mugged and possibly killed. You would say “thats wrong, you should not increase your odds of being a victim of a violent crime just because of the location”, but thats ridiculous. Same here. Yes, judging a community by a few wrong-doers is wrong, but thats REALITY. So either learn to live with it or pack your bags and move to Israel.
You speak as if you are talking about some idealized, utopian society where we can all be judged as individuals, and not as JEWS. I give you credit for bringing up Greenspan and Kristallnacht, but the world is what the world is. As someone who is heavily immersed in business in two worlds, both the religious Jews world and the gentile world, I can say, that EVERY TIME some frummie is caught doing something illegal or immoral, I am bombarded with hearing the most vile anti-semitism about Jews from gentiles AND secular Jews. Thats the truth. Thats reality. I experience it on a regular basis. So, I stand by my previous post of “be careful”, and “let Rubashkin rot”, as a warning to other Yidden.
I too am heavily immersed in the business world. Maybe I make a better impression on my co-workers so that they dont label all of us based on what they read in the paper about a few.
Your insinuation that somehow you do not hear what I hear because I “don’t make a good impression” on who I deal with is laughable. I do not have “co-workers” as you do, I am a one person operation. When I am in Manhattan conducting business, I do not wear a kippa, and when I’m in Boro Park I do. And I know what I hear when I’m in Manhattan. So take your non-deserved patting on the back of self righteousness and shove it up you tuchus. Chamor.
Maybe if you wore a kipa it would help offset the damage done by others. Or do you work exclusively with bigots, who would judge all religious Jews even when they know the honest religous Jew – NewYorker.
and now we’ve come full circle because if you maintain that theywould still judge all of us based on the actions of a few, well then I dont think you can blame those few for casuing those feelings
Maybe if you got in your car while its parked in a garage, and the car was running, and you took a hose and put one end on the exhaust pipe and the other end inside the car, you would not live very long. I don’t know for sure, but try it and get back to me.
You are a very angry individual with a chip on your shoulder. I’d get some therapy, but dont worry when you finally snap and kill somebody and they try to give you the lethal injection, we’ll rush to your defense and try to lower your sentence to life-imprisonment.
Please excuse me for taking you seriously
no chips on my shoulders. not angry. just DISGUSTED at so called “frummies” like you who have blinders on and a one track mind regarding any “frum” person who does wrong “the judge is an anti-semite”, “the sentence is not fair”, “he gives tzedakah”, “he has a nice wife and kids”. To quote Jack Nicholson; “Shut up, shut up, shut up, SHUT UP!”
YOU SOUND VERY ANGRY. and namecalling doesnt make your case stronger, youre coming of sounding a bit like a lunatic. At first I disagreed with Stan, but he makes a good point and without sounding like a lunatic
Thanks
NewYorker – your comments on here are strong and you’re all over the post taking a stand and defending. I agree with alot of what you’re saying and yes, my new friend Stan does seem to have an idealized view of orthodoxy. So, since you don’t seem to have any issues replying, why haven’t you responded to me on the “Stuff Single Girls Like?” post?
It seems like you misunderstood NewYorker (cant say I’m surprised youve misundertood me many times too).
Here goes: NewYorker doesnt claim I have an idealized view of orthodoxy he claims I have an idealized view of the world. In a senses he is right our disagreement is whether an individual who does something wrong, resulting in all members of that society being lumped into that category, should be blamed for that bad name. I maintain that wrongdoing of an indivdual is in now ay reflective upon that society, and outsiders (such as yourself) should realise that he is just an individual and in no way reflective on that society.
Now on that part we agree (I assume). Our disagreement arises now, ie in the real world were it does reflect on us. I claim: well then the antisemites who lump us all together are at fault not the individual wrong-doer. Whereas he maintains that thats the world we live in and people are responsible for the outcome of their actions, even when that outcome is a result of unavoidable bigotry.
You crack me up. Now you’re going to tell me what other people mean???? Hahaha.
And now I’m an outsider. What exactly am I outside of? Won’t you please explain, since you love talking to me so much.
Oy vey, Im beginging to suspect there may be something wrong with you, but I do like talking to you so here goes:
New Yorker said “You speak as if you are talking about some idealized, utopian society where we can all be judged as individuals, and not as JEWS.”
To which you replied: “my new friend Stan does seem to have an idealized view of orthodoxy” (btw im glad we are friends, and theres no hard feelings)
I pointed out that youve misunderstood Newyorker. reread the qoute, he doesnt claim that I have an idealised view of Orthodoxy (we probably have the same view, our argument though strongly worded is actually quite limited). He says I have an idealized view of society . and he’s right I kinda do, (see previous comment where I pinpoint the exact point of contention)
As for you being an “outsider” NewYorker wrote “EVERY TIME some frummie is caught doing something illegal or immoral, I am bombarded with hearing the most vile anti-semitism about Jews from gentiles AND secular Jews” You are an outsider in the sense that you are outside orthodxy and you too judge us based on the actions of a few on this blog you wrote: “who get angry at orthodoxy because case after case makes the news and it seems that those communities ignore the laws and refuse to see the dangers of doing so,” “mistreating others, disrespecting them, using their dire circumstances to make a buck off them…the list goes on.”
To clarify, I was not replying directly to what NewYorker said (“You speak as if you are talking about some idealized, utopian society where we can all be judged as individuals, and not as JEWS”) – I was stating the opinion I am forming of your view based on many of your comments, not just this thread. You don’t have to agree with it, but that is the conclusion I’ve come to based on comments you have posted.
Now, if we’re going to be friends, you’ll need to filter the output and quit being so insulting (“Oy vey, Im beginging to suspect there may be something wrong with you…”). There are ways of stating your opinion without insulting the person you’re disagreeing with. Learn them. Use them. If you want to keep talking, you’ll need to learn to play nice.
Got it my apolagies: your reply to NewYorker “I agree with alot of what you’re saying and yes, my new friend Stan does seem to have an idealized view of orthodoxy.” led me to believe that you were replying directly to him.
Almost fell off my chair. Glad to see we can finally agree on something.
The actual intent of my comment to NewYorker was to bring attention to the fact that, while he (?) seems to have no issue answering on this post, he has yet to respond to me on a different post.
Almost fell off my chair. Glad to see we can finally agree on something.
The actual intent of my comment to NewYorker was to bring attention to the fact that, while he (?) seems to have no issue answering on this post, he has yet to respond to me on a different post.
and besides, I dont think the American justice system allows for the sentencing of a Jew in order to serve as a warning for other Jews, so your argument doesnt really make sense.
By the way, meanwhile an Israeli Organ-Dealer ring got busted by Israeli police. Among the people selling organs were the poorest of Israeli society, i.e. arabs. And it seems that some of them were coerced at some point of the procedure.
So it turns out meanwhile that the rumors “invented” in summer were not even rumors, but corresponded to a reality.
Screw the Gentiles. That sounds harsh sure but antisemitism will always be around. They don’t need us to provide them with crazy ideas. What you are advocating is modifying our behaviour to fall in line with the Gentiles idea of morality. Halacha should be the only thing we fall in line with. Never try to define yourself the way the goyim do.
How about you show some love to your fellow Jews (even when they commit crimes) and see how much better that feels than railing against them.
When you call the police, who responds to help you? Gentiles. If your house is on fire, and you call 911, who responds? Gentiles. If a nation attacks us and tries to invade where you live, who responds? Gentiles. Who picks up your garbage twice a week? Gentiles. And you dare say “screw the gentiles”? How dare you, in this country, the BEST, most UN-ANTI-SEMITIC country in the world outside of Israel, knock fellow Americans who are gentile? You pig. You slob. You neb. Do me, a Jewish-American a favor, pack up your crap and move to Israel. You lowlife scum.
You seem like such a sweet person if only all frum jews were like you and were mekadesh shem shamayim
I don’t advocate disrespect for non Jews. On the other hand the police, firemen, garbage men, and everyone else you quoted is paid for with TAX PAYERS MONEY. They aren’t Tzaddikim doing Chessed. They are doing their JOB, many of them quite dissatisfactorily in fact!
I did not say non-Jews are Tzaddikim, nor did I infer that. All I said was when you’re in trouble, who can you call to help you out? Non-Jews. Yes, they are getting paid for it, but would you risk your life every day being a police officer on the streets of New York City for $39,000 a year? How about a fireman? No, you would not. SO SHOW SOME RESPECT for those non-Jews who work for modest salaries and would put their lives on the line FOR YOU AND YOUR FRUM FAMILY.
I have an idea for a new post. All the financial scams that that jewish people like. We can start with the Section 8 scam, no tax on cash, lying on tax returns,
If anyone has any more just include them below.
Its only a matter of time that it all comes crashing down.
Funny because I have a list I wanted to do – what about basement shuk property tax write offs and cheating the government out of food subsidies in schools and camps.
But it’s not just the Jews, it’s everyone – we are just better at it than most.
I wouldn’t say everyone.
Hell, that sort of shtick would have you ostracized in many communities in this country.
Both sides of this case have been completely ridiculous.
First, the Rubashkin defenders. I’ve been hearing a lot of people, especially people from Chabad, that Rubashkin is perfect and never did anything wrong ever. For years, ever since the whole scandal with how he was restraining his cows. There are plenty of ways to restrain cows for shechita that don’t cause them stress. And there’s people saying “so what if he hired illegal aliens, everyone does.” Just because you might not agree with it being illegal, it’s still illegal.
Second, the prosecution. Rubashkin hired illegal aliens, but that crime usually gets probation, not prison time. The bank fraud Rubashkin committed usually would get 10-15 years, with a minimum sentence of six years. Having a life sentence for a first time non-violent offender is ridiculous and might qualify as cruel and unusual punishment.
One thing I’m fed up hearing about regarding this case is antisemitism. The more “antisemitism” gets thrown around, the more you’re going to build up hate because it comes across as Jews are allowed to break rules but they’re so damn righteous and nice, they really shouldn’t get penalized.
If you had pictures of the prosecution in Nazi regalia or proof that in cases they had versus Jewish defendants, they called for unusually stiff sentences, then you can cry antisemitism. But you don’t!
Exactly. I don’t think the ridiculous sentencing request by the prosecution is motivated by antisemitism. Rubashkin tried to stand up to the unions and he lost. Now the unions and a pro-union administration are trying to throw everything they can at him.
This also.
VERY well said!
I agree with the former Attorneys General who wrote the judge a letter indicating outrage over the suggested life sentence and suggesting that a single digit sentence would be more appropriate.
I’ve hardly read anything about the case, but from what I’ve read, it seems that they threw the book at him, which is well within their rights.
I’ve seen it happen to other Jews in states that don’t have much of a Jewish population, it seems to be their way of warning Jews that “if you come to our turf, you’d better behave”.
Poor guy and his family, they are going to suffer, while the judge and jury sleep easy at night thinking they did the right thing, even though worse criminals are getting away with worse crimes.
@Phil; Yes, the courts are/were within their rights to throw the book at him. But, “Poor guy and his family”? Hell no. The others at the op of the food chain, which includes a brother, a son, and a nephew, had to know something. You can’t be in a family business and not know. And he’s not the only one in trouble. Look up Rabbi Weiss here in Albany. His son in law. He plead guilty to three of four counts of child endangermant. He admitted to placing his unit in contact with the bottom parts of two children(not his own), and was recorded on tape telling said kids to lie to their parents and the police about it. This f*er’s wife is raising money for her father *AND* her husband. They *BOTH* n eed to rot in prison. Because we’re the Am Hanivchar, people will either love us,(therefore, watch our every move), or hate us(and watch our every move). If we so much as lie on our taxes, touch a little kid, or screw with immigrants, that’s it – we’re done for. People generally don’t respect those who think higher of themselves(or try to, at least), but trip up every once in a while. i experienced it in my last job. i was an IT administrator; hired directly by the owner(a chabadnik, big ba’al chesed, ba’al tzedaka, etc.). But, because i had this special “connection” with the owner, “the masses”(front office people, showroom people, warehouse people) saw me as “one of HIS”, and not “one of trhem”. i left early on Fridays, i had extra days off, i never worked Saturdays(never mind i had it off legitimately, or worked 10 hours days to make up for it). But, the second i opened my mouth and said something off color, or backahdnedly insulted someone without knowing, i was brought to task. Simply because i was Jewish, and special to the owner. i was supposed to “suffer” like the rest of the “masses”, and not be treated any differently. i lived in a fishbowl, always looking out, everyone looking in. i had to be more productive than everyone around me. i couldn’t take smoking breaks every 45 minutes(not that i smoke). i had to always be working on 4 or 5 things at once.
You get the idea. You want to say he’s suffering? i say good. Let him rot in jail for giving Klal Yisrael a bad name. By screwing a whole bunch of illegals, he screwed with the rest of us. When you’re at the top, and everyone is looking up at you, you need to set an example. He’s not it.
ah this guy gets it! excellent!
Also, just because the prosecution dropped the 60-something immigration charges, doesn’t mean he’s “innocent” of those counts. In reality,as Jews, we need to look at it like this: he screwed with immigrants, he lied on paper, he lied to OSHA, he didn’t follow the rules. HKB”H is meting out punishment in the form of the judicial sentence. For anyone that learns Daf Yomi, not 4 months ago in Bava Basra(and a few weeks ago in Sanhedrin via reference)did we learn that one who tries to do a mitzva with stolen property is still branded a sinner, is still o’ver la’avim on several counts. Yes, he might have been a ba’al tzedaka(he used to ship cases of fresh hamburger patties to his former chabad-shliach-son-in-law here in Albany for Chabad events), but giving tzedaka from illegal gains is still a sin. Also, “Deena D’malchuta Deena”: The Law of your land is your law”. If it goes against American Law, but not Torah Law, it’s considered to be against Torah law. Therefore, if thievery, fraud, conspiracy to defraud, et al, are illegal, then it’s illegal for Jews as well. He’s getting what he deserves.
The above “Anonymous” was me, BTW…
Say what you will, a life sentence in prison is extremely harsh. If it’s American law, so be it. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right. The USA is one of the world’s most immoral countries.
What’s even worse, is that the judges have the discretion of applying the strictest or most lenient rules as they see fit.
Esav hates Yaakov, no love lost between goyim and Jews. Give a non Jewish judge in a predominantly non Jewish state a reason, and he’ll lock you or any other frum Jew up and throw away the key.
Have you ever spent any time in prison? Do you know what kind of people he’ll be spending the rest of his life with? Whether or not it’s right or wrong is one thing, but knowing what he’s facing as a frum Jew, makes me feel bad for him, his wife and kids.
As for the law of the land being the law, what happens when the law forbids teaching Torah? Are you saying that the czarist and communist judges were right for throwing the Lubavitch rebbeim in jail?
What about the laws against speeding or burning stop signs? Do you believe that we are going to burn in hell for traffic violations?
Phil,
You crack me up sometimes. I’m pretty sure you never spent time in prison so why ask us? Anyway US law doesnt forbid teaching Torah. Far from it.
Chris,
The only time I spent in prison was a couple hours visiting a friend in a Texas prison one Purim. That was more than enough for a lifetime.
I was referring to old Czarist / communist rules that forbade teaching Torah in Russia. Many Jews lived there at the time, and obviously didn’t have to follow the law of the land.
THIS.
This line sums it up best: “Because we’re the Am Hanivchar, people will either love us,(therefore, watch our every move), or hate us(and watch our every move)” or as they say dam-ned if we do, damn-ed if we dont. We cant win with antisemites they will always blame us and find fault regardless of whether any actual wrongdoing occured (as did in this case).Please dont excuse anti-semitism by blaming Rubashkin or anybody else for that matter
I think this line sums it up best:
“If we so much as lie on our taxes, touch a little kid, or screw with immigrants, that’s it – we’re done for.”
Yes, that’s right and it is nothing to do with antisemitism. The solution is easy: don’t molest children or exploit immigrants.
Accusing the whole world and media and legal system of being antisemitic because some people are antisemitic is just as bad as accusing all Jews of being fraudsters because some Jews are fraudsters. I’m not accusing you Stan of doing that btw.
His defenders are making Jews the story by protesting and defending him as a JEW even though he is guilty as charged. If 100s of people dress up in stereotypical Jewish outfits and put themselves in the media as self-proclaimed Jews defending a Jew for being a Jew , the media will focus on the Jewish angle and the public will notice. This is more newsworthy than his crimes which are pretty normal.
I have no sympathy with the banks, they defrauded everybody and ruined the American economy, but that is another issue.
That line cracked me up to it kinda sounded like he was saying if only antisemites didnt bother us so we could touch kids in peace.
(Dont worry Ra’anan I know thats not what you meant)
@Stan; i hadn’t thought of that, but maybe Shalom Rubashkin’s son-in-law did. He was put in jail for only 60 days for touching Chabad kids, then telling them to lie about it. And it happened in a mikvah. then he proceeded to beat up one of the kids when he said he wouldn’t lie. Go figure.
BTW, the above Anonymous was me. Also, i do think this punishment is excessive, giving that others have received less for far worse. But, when sleeping with dogs, one expects fleas. Too mother-f*ing bad. Break the f*ing rules, get the f*ing time. HKB”H is testing him. And us, and the lawyers. Look, everyone’s nisyonot are their own, and not for us to comments or question. Will he actually get it? Who knows? But HKB”H is pulling the strings. he’s holding all the keys, and guarding all the doors, to quote a great movie. He’s giving Rubashkin a test, with the possible result of spending his life having the opportunity to daven, learn, repent, and think of ways to fix his wrongdoings. Let us ALL remember that HKB”H sets the rules, and gives out the punishements.
i think kosher meat prices are way too high, and I can’t believe this wasn’t mentioned yet. why is maple leaf sliced turkey breast 1/4 the price of the kosher brand??
I don’t think someone who runs a business that grossly overcharges on food items could be deemed a philanthropist.
It is just counter intuitive.
(i don’t think the selectivity of treifa and the mashgiach wages can justify the retail prices.)
A few years ago there was the kosher meat shortage but that’s not an issue any more. Kosher meat is usually a bit more expensive but I haven’t seen that big of a price difference. I know at Publix the trief Tyson chicken nuggets are $9.00 a package where the kosher Meal Mart chicken nuggets are $9.60 a package. Try looking at different stores and you might find better deals.
@Anonymous. As a Jewish Food/Kosher Food professional, i can tell you to shut your ppie hooe. Kosher meat is expensive for that very reason. There are several more stpes in kosher meat fabrication that require human intervention, and cannot be completed by machine. Requiring human hands, ears, eyes, etc. bumps up the prices a lot. Add transportation, and you get a hefty sum added to the bill. Jews in Kansas City(either one) might pay $8 a pound for the stuff i pay $10-$11 a pound for. i live 143 miles due North of New York City. Going down to Brooklyn or Monsey doesn’t get me a much better deal, either. i might pay $1 or $2 less a pound, but it’s still high. i don’t have a choice. At the time before SMR went to prison, there were only NINE slaughterhouses in the whole country supplying kosher food on a full-time basis(several others were part-time). Now, post Rubashkin, there are up to a dozen more, but because they are small businesses and companies, their prices are not yet in line with the one house that did %40-%60 of all national production. Please… know what you are talking about before opening your mouth. You are waaaaaaaaay off base.
to ben the lawyer.
I think you gave an accurate analogy by comparing falsifying invoices, for a “secure” line of credit. to getting a loan on property that never existed. A lot worse than just “lying on your mortgage application”.
However in this case MOST of the line of credit was in fact based on legitimate invoices. Only 10 million of it was fraudulent. The rest the banks loses, are NOT HIS FAULT OR PROBLEM.
The problem on this case, as well as the problem with Rubashkin, personally, is that he is a mixed bag. Not a master criminal, nor is he innocent and doe eyed.
Today in America we have three types of white collar criminals. 1.Fraudsters like Madoff
2. everybody who ever applied for a credit card, or no doc mortgage
3. Legal Criminals, those who don’t seem to have broken any Laws, but have still managed to be dishonest, and defraud the entire economy.
Actually, I just focused on the fraudulent invoices because that’s the easiest to break down as outright “this is wrong”.
For the others, there were two general groups of wrongdoing.
One was lying on the application (and note, contrary to your assertion everyone does not lie on applications). Specifically, he was found by the Jury to have lied when he certified that he was operating the plant within the law.
The other was money laundering. Remember that the money was due back to the bank when it was paid by the customer. Instead, he diverted the funds, laundered them through two Jewish charities, and then eventually returned the same amount to the bank. This had the side effect of increasing the potential loss to the bank because he had diverted the collateral for other purposes. Again, if I steal your car, and eventually return it, I still stole your car.
Also, under American law, material fraud that exposes the lender to risk is a crime in and of itself, whether or not the lender lost money. The penalty is based in part on the amount lost OR the amount the criminal intended they lose, whichever is greater.
In this case, they lost the amount of $16 million (if we exclude the 10 million we agreed on earlier). Do you really think if he had said, “Well, I hire illegal immigrants to work the plant, I don’t pay the cattle sellers on time (*), and I’m going to divert payments due the bank for my own purposes until I get around to paying you back”, they would have loaned him that money?
If not, his fraud is material, and the losses count.
Two last thoughts. People who do sleazy things but do them within the law are sleazy, but not criminals. I may not like them, I may refuse to assocaite with them, I may lobby my representatives to make those activities illegal, but they aren’t criminals.
And I am not a lawyer. I am just an educated layman.
(*) The cattle sellers would be at the front of the line for any repayments, which reduces the amount of assets available for the bank.
That really doesnt sound so bad. Thanks for clarrifying
I have a question for those with such absolute faith in American justice. Why has not a SINGLE banker been convicted over the past two years, for what they did to the economy.
Why is it that the only people getting the hammer or those with crimes peripheral to the ACTUAL damage done to our country.
sorry my first comment was meant for “Dave the lawyer”
I lost interest in this thread as soon as the name calling and vitriol came out. Can’t we disagree in a civil manner? Lets all act like big boys and girls and take it down a notch.
Good Shabbos, you bastards.
(Just kidding)
Hahahahah. My sentiments exactly.
Here here. Bastard. 😉
Guys, you’re missing some facts.
He defrauded a bank out of 25 million dollars. “Oh but he didn’t take it for himself!” sure he did, he took it to prop up his failing business. And the federal guidelines recommend life in prison for this. “Oh, but other people who committed similar crimes only got 6 years!” Right, but they made a plea bargain and pleaded guilty. Rubashkin was offered a plea bargain, and he turned it down in favor of going to trial. That’s the chance you take when you go to trial, that you may have to face the full brunt of federal recommendations of sentencing.
Thank you for pointing out that act. i forgot about that.
The video bothers me more than the case itself. The speaker emotes way too much, irritatingly. The case against the Rubashkins is not competely airtight but that doesn’t also mean there isn’t a case to be made against what was alleged to have done: e.g. exploit migrant workers, inhumanely slaughter animals, commit bank fraud. Those are serious offenses, and needless to say it’s not exactly kashrut.
I agree that the speaker in the video is a weepy pansy, but his points were well made. I never heard allegations of Rubashkin slaughtering animals inhumanely. In fact, proper shechita is probably the most humane way to kill an animal.
If you never heard allegations about improper treatment of animals at Agriprocessors, you weren’t paying attention.
Also, while it may be unlawful to hire illegal aliens, I wouldn’t call it exploitation.
1- They shouldn’t be here in the first place.
2- They are happy to have any job. No one forced them to work there.
If anyone is guilty of exploitation its the illegals exploiting the U.S. Flouting immigration laws, undercutting American laborers and sucking billions of taxpayer dollars in welfare, foodstamps, healthcare and other government entitlement programs while the rest of us have to dial ‘1’ for English.
Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Welfare, Foodstamps, Medicare, or Medicaid, and have not been since 1996.
And those who willingly hire illegal immigrants are the problem. And let’s not be naive enough to think that SMR didn’t know that his work force was heavily made up of illegal immigrants.
If no one hired them, they would go away (just look at how the construction industry falloff in the recession drove the numbers down). Companies who choose to hire illegals (because they can pay them less, because they can often pay them below legal standards because they know they are unlikely to go to the law), are the ones creating the incentive for illegal immigrants to enter this country at all.
Congrats Alex on the most absurd statment, there were many made but yours deffinatly takes the cake!!As many hyave pointed out, he was not charges he was convicted of do not include anyhting about illegal imigrants. He wasnt even charged of inhumanely slaughtered.
Ive gone through the laws of kashrut, and I assure you, nowhere does it say that if the animals were treated inhumanely, or workers were exploited, that it isnt kosher. (though its obviously wrong). Feel free to add your own stringencies on the laws of kashrut, but dont be an ignoramus
Actually, the Jury found that he was hiring illegal immigrants. It was one of the underlying facts in the fraud charges related to falsely claiming to be operating the company within the law.
The charges directly related to illegal immigration were droppped “without prejuidice” (meaning they can be reopened) primarily because under Federal Law they wouldn’t have been likely to increase the sentence.
Alex,
We believe shechita to be the least painful way for an animal to be slaughtered. That doesn’t mean it’s painless, nor that it’s nerves won’t react after being slaughtered. Go to any slaughterhouse and you’ll see lots of blood.
Slaughtering animals is NOT a “serious offense” despite you and Peta may think. It’s thanks to these slaughterhouses that we have yummy steaks to put on our BBQ.
Hey Phil. Actually I’m all for the humane (kashrut) slaughter of animals. I’m an omnivore. The problem is that Mr. Rubashkin wasn’t following the rules and allowed all sorts of abuses. Don’t drag me in with the PETA people, please.
Alex,
If Rubashkin’s plant had valid shochtim and a glatt kosher hechsher, I assume that they followed the halachic requirement related to the slaughter of animals. That’s about as “humane” as Jews need it to be.
Peta knows nothing about what makes an animal kosher or treif, their smear campaign is nothing more than another silly attempt at trying to shock people out of eating animals. They did the same with the poor chickens, pigs and baby seals.
If the Rubashkins broke rules regarding illegal workers and bank fraud, that’s got nothing to do with the kashrut status of the meat they sold.
You guys all crack me up with your “illegal immigrant” stories, pointing the blame at each other. What makes you or any other white people “legal citizens”?
Do you think that the first nations & native Americans wanted you to come here to slaughter them and steal their land?
Do you think that poor Mexicans looking for work should have less rights than your greedy ancestors did?
You silly immigration laws allow terrorist muslims to enter the country, set up shop here, have babies and preach their garbage to their youth so they grow up wanting you all dead, while the same laws forbid poor, hardworking Mexicans from entering to support their families.
American justice is comparable to Sodom and Gomorah.
Phil,
You are much angrier than usual lately, whats up? Everything OK?
Anyway you live in Canada, basically you railing about US law is kinda silly.
Chris,
I didn’t realize my ranting makes me sound angry, maybe Hesh’s more serious topics bring out the best in all of us.
I really don’t care too much about what the USA does, we have more than our fair share of immigration issues here in Canada.
However, when I have to wait hours in airports and take my shoes of every time a fly so someone can check between my toes for bombs, I think of all those those “sweet, innocent” muslims that put us in that situation to begin with.
I had very little tolerance for the arab / muslim world, and the more of them I encounter, the less I like them. This is in sharp contrast to any other ethnic group that I had stereotypical ideas about, I usually gain more tolerance and understanding for them by interacting with them.
Phil,
Bubeleh,
All countries have immigration policies, most of them far stricter than ours. Try sneaking into Mexico. You’ll find yourself locked up for minimum of 2 years. You don’t like how this country came to be? You find me a country that wasn’t founded by some sort of conquest, war or colonization. Your arguement doesn’t hold any water, unless you’re challenging the idea of sovereign states in general, in which case you’re completely nuts. Like it or not, the U.S. is an internationlly recognized sovereign state and as such must defend her borders.
Don’t turn this into a racial thing. The path to citizenship is open to all people of all races. Just do it legally, dont sneak in the back door.
My ‘greedy ancestors’ came here LEGALLY with nothing but the shirts on their backs after a beautiful vacation in Hitler’s camps. They built themselves a life, paid their taxes, and became productive CITIZENS.
The answer to your question is, yes. poor Mexicans, or anyone else who isn’t here legally have less rights than citizens, be they naturalized or legal immigrants.
It’s not the immigration laws that allow Muslim terrorists to slip in here, its the general lack of enforcement. But thank you, you’ve just made a good case for stricter immigration policy.
‘Sodom and Gomorrah’
That equvalency is too stupid to merit a response.
Zvi,
I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of the immigration laws many countries have in place. Maybe now you know what the Mexicans must have felt like when Americans colonized much of the Southwest 150 years ago. What goes around comes around.
Fact is, when the govt. puts immigration quotas on any given country, it’s a racial thing. A fair system would be to let people in on a “first come first served” basis no matter the origin, but then you’d be overrun by Latinos which seems to be the big fear for white Americans.
As for people taking advantage of them, I’m all for it. Cheap labor would bring manufacture back to the US instead of having your companies outsource it to Chinese slave laborers. Maybe then your economy would come out of the gutter.
Heck, if were up to me, I’d bring back slavery instead of locking up criminals in prisons and spending billions to give them gyms, steaks and satellite TV.
What goes around comes around? Are you saying Mexico is trying to colonize our border states? It’s not that far-fetched. I’ve always said the constant influx of millions of illegal aliens from Mexico was an invasion. If this is true, that would more or less put us in a state of war. All the more reasons to tighten our borders.
As far as national quotas, I dont think its as much a racial thing as a socio-economic/ cultural / level of education thing, all of which are legitimate concerns. We want people to come here and pull their weight and contribute positively to our society. Not that it makes a difference if the feds dont enforce the law anyway.
There are many ways to bring down the cost of manufacture short of “exploiting poor Mexicans” The biggest obstacle IMHO is a huge out of control labor union lobby which has the current administration in its back pocket. Another way would be to lower the tax overhead by cutting spending. One way to do that would be to STOP PAYING FOR THE HEALTH CARE OF MILLIONS OF ILLEGALS. 10% of Americans are unemployed, believe me lots of them would do the jobs that people have Mexicans do today. And whatever gains are made by having all this cheap labor available are more than offset by the amount of tax money absorbed by illegals (many of whom dont work at all) in government entitlements.
I do agree with you that our prison system needs serious reform, but that’s a different discussion.
Zvi,
All I know is that I’ll take Speedy Gonzales over Ahmed the terrorist any day, despite whatever education and “culture” Ahmed might bring with him.
We have that problem here in Quebec, they recruit immigrants from French speaking countries, mainly the middle East. The Arab population in Montreal has quadrupled over the past 20 years. Just because they are “legal”, that doesn’t make them any more civilized or less Jew hating than they were back in their homelands.
Phil.
That is a good argument for national quotas.
Speedy Gonzales is not always the good natured migrant day laborer. Sometimes he’s the ruthless drug dealing gangbanger, or kidnapper (Phoenix, Arizona has the 2nd highest rate of kidnapping IN THE WORLD!). As much as 1/3 of our federal prison population is made up of non citizens. There is also a major drug war going on in Mexico that threatens to spill over our borders. I dont see it as a choice between Gonzales and Ahmed. Close the border and keep them both out.
Zvi,
I they had closed the border to Shylock 65 years ago, we wouldn’t be having this conversation today.
Immigrants are what built your country to what it is today. Before they showed up, Americans where a bunch of naked dudes with feathers on their heads hunting bison from horseback.
I say have those darned immigration people do a better job at profiling potential immigrants. That way, you’ll get more desirables than undesirables.
Actually, horses were introduced to the Americas by Europeans. Dude, I’m not against immigration. I’m against ILLEGAL immigration. Shylock came legally. If some Mexicans want to move here, let them apply for a visa, like anyone else who wants to come here from another country.
I’m what NewYorker calls an American Gentile. I got one of those emails (probably forwarded to me accidentally) asking me to go to a online petition site. I don’t sign anything I don’t research. So, I visited some of those sites carrying PR hype in support of Mr. Rubashkin. I did little fact checking of the hype. If I am correct, these PR types are lying to fellow Jews. The stories twist the truth and mislead the reader. There are 60’s-style charges of discrimination which everybody else has wised up to. The ones that anger me the most are ‘why do they want to put Mr. Rubashkin away for life when Mr. X only got 2 years?’ A little research shows Mr. X was charged with a different crime, or entered into a plea bargain.
These same PR tpes must also troll message boards. If someone speaks out about what Mr. Rubashkin was found guilty of, the person is accused of being anti-semitic by Rubashkin supporters. That person is not anti-semitic, he is just against white collar crime. But, he gets labeled an anti-semite.
Times change. What worked in the 60’s and 70’s no longer does. The prosecutors probably sized up their enemy correctly: a bunch of militants thugs. So, they brought in the heavy artillery. Its all a big game.
I expect someone to reply to this post calling me a bigot or an anti-semite. Well, I am a bigot. An equal opportunity bigot. I am predudiced against villains, scoundrels and thieves, regardless of religion, race, national origin, etc.
Well said. As an orthodox Jew I couldn’t agree with you more.
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