If you hang around liberal and non-Orthodox Jews for a bit you start hearing some key phrases over and over again. Tikkun Olam and Jewish Values are two that come to mind and I’ve been wondering lately about Jewish Values. Mind you, these phrases are spoken without the context of religion, God, Torah or halacha and mostly in the supposedly tolerant nature of culturally yet not religious Jews. Maybe someone can help me out here but if you want to talk about Jewish values outside of the context of the Torah or God, how do your Jewish values differ from anyone else?
I hear a lot of talk about community, tzedaka, fondness for minorities and social justice, but these are not Jewish values, they are across the board mostly liberal people values. What does being Jewish have to do with wanting to fix the world and rid it of it’s intolerance and poor inhabitants? Why always the talk of Jewish values? Then again, I fear that if the liberal Jewish values espousing crowd would try to use Torah and Halacha to back up their views, they may be shot down in the name of many anti-Jewish value ideas expressed within these two fundamentals of Judaism.
I’ve noticed that religious Jews rarely speak of Jewish values and when they do they sound like extreme versions of the Republican party. It seems that Judaism follows politics when it comes to values, we take what we want from the Torah and choose to ignore what doesn’t fit our agenda. We must ban gay marriage, but honest business practice gets thrown out the window. On the left there is much talk about treating everyone with respect, then why can’t religious people be treated with respect as well?
More on 4torah.com about Jewish values.
If you think that liberal values (like tolerance and taking care of the poor) are not Jewish values, then you really need to brush up on your Navi.
And you really need to brush up on your chumash.
And also your navi: “Zichru toras moshe”. Malachi 4:4.
(And we’ll bicker about who really takes more care of the poor a different time.)
“Love the stranger.” That is Chumash.
Read Yeshaya. He had some choice words for those who neglected everyone while parading around in their piety.
And choice words for those who are tolerant of deviations from piety.
None of you got the point of the post, if those Jews espousing said values are not basing them on Judaism (religion, Torah, God) then why are they in fact Jewish? They can just be plain old values.
If those liberal values, while important, are not unique to Judaism then they do not define Judaism and Jewish observance as non-Orthodox streams imagine they do. You don’t have to Jewish to be a good person.
“Jewish values” comprise mizvot, Halachot, and minhagim, and the obligations thereof, even if they coincide with values of non-Jews but living a Jewish life comprises those things that non-Jews don’t do and to which they are not obligated.
Otherwise, why make a meaningless distinction?
So it appears that out of 33 comments you’re the only one who understood my dilemma.
As a BT, I face this dilemma all the time with my non-Frum family and friends who think voting Democrat is the only manifestation of Jewish values.
The whole Lakewood has a huge voting problem. On one hand they want to vote against democrats because of their stance on gay marriage. The problem is that if a republican wins the presidency, bye bye food stamps, welfare, HUD, and all the other free-bee’s that supports and sustains the Lakewood community.
I guess in Lakewood, “WORK” is a four-letter word
I didn’t know they give out Heads-Up Displays in Lakewood. Perhaps it’s for brainwashing from the “stunning rabbis” (I kid you not, that’s come in the mail before). Is that where Google Glasses got the idea from?
Liberal values such as tolerance and taking care of the poor are Torah values, just not the way liberals apply them. Tolerance is good, but tolerance of evil, such as dictators who want to wipe other countries off the map, is anti-Torah (Midrash- “One who has mercy on the cruel is himself cruel”). Helping the poor is a Jewish value, but giving handouts to poor people that do not incentivize them to work is anti-Torah (see the Rambam’s levels of tzedaka).
I’d have to say that your post distorts the Torah’s own directives.
Tolerance is defined as “sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one’s own” or “the act of allowing something.” In fact, these are exactly what the Torah does not permit.
The Torah is very intollerant, and not only in respect to homosexuality but in respect to the dynamics of social change. It’s easy to pick on the verses that are in line with liberal values, but hey, you will find, for instance, that Obama is conservative on some things and Romney is liberal on some things — that’s not the point. Highlighting the parts of Torah that reveal its intolerance is what this is all about.
Liberals Jews tend to make a mishmash of Torah values and society’s values, then re-brand it as tikkun olam.
Non-ortho Jews also like to quote Devarim 16:20,, “justice, justice shall you seek”, as the basis for Tikkun Olam being a Torah mitzvah, but they totally ignore the peshat that relates it to only court cases, not to political platforms of “social justice”. Astonishing how they will twist Judaism to fit all their preconceived notions of how the world should be, instead of seeking to understand what Hashem wants from and for us Jews. In other words, they elevate man’s desires above G-d’s. Shameful.
Whereas Orthodox Jews want to make sure that justice is sought as long as the criminals being sought aren’t Orthodox Jews…
> but they totally ignore the peshat that relates it to only court cases
As opposed to the pasuk that tells us to follow the rabbonim, which is referring to court cases but is interpreted by OJ to mean that one must follow everything said by a rabbinic authority.
Free will lets us obey or not. Intellectual dishonesty and theological bankruptcy willfully twist and misquote sources both d’oraita and d’rabbanan to suit political aims. Just my am haaretz opinion.
please explain this. i am a used to be baal t’shuvah and was told “follow the rabbis” is a deraisa commandment to follow the halachah of the rabbis. not just (it was never even mentioned) cour cases.
Please clarify.
tuvia
I think one of the things that irks non-orthodox Jews about Orthodox Jews is very much reflected in this post and the comments. Orthodox Judaism today very much emphasizes ritual and custom to the seeming exclusion of “values.” So what are these “values.” I would suggest that you start by reading the haftarah portion that is read on Yom Kippur. The first time I remember actually paying attention to it, I was astonished. The navi says- a day of fast is meaningless unless you help the oppressed and the poor. It is a powerful starting place to “Jewish Values” that you all seem to have so much trouble identifying. Another place to look is “ki geerim hayiteem be’eretx mitzariim.” Because we were strangers in the land of Egypt, we must be kind to strangers among us. A third place to find these values is in parshat kedoshiim (the first part). Leaving over the corner of your fields for the poor (value: don’t be a chazir and keep everything for yourself, think of the needs of others). I think it is a terrible reflection on all of your Jewish education that you view Judaism strictly as a bunch of halachot to be scrutinized and fawned over. I’ll never forget a sermon I heard from a great Orthodox rabbi who said- think about the fact that when we say kiddush, we cover the challah. Why? Yes there are technical reasons but what is the value being transmitted? That when we bless one item, the other items should not be exposed and be thought of as outside our blessing. That we need to be mindful of our actions and how they are perceived by others. Just because some of these values coincide with what are today considered “liberal values”, does not diminish their importance in Judaism. It would take a whole volume to teach you people about Jewish values, but this is as good a start as I can condense into a post.
Are you serious?
You think frum jews have a problem when it comes to tzedaka? You’ll notice we are probably the only culture in the world where shleppers come from across the world, and walk into our prayer houses, and ask for money to help with their kid’s medical treatement… and we give them money!
Every city has gmach which gives out loans without interest, and food for poor people, and guest houses near hospitals, and every chessed imaginable. In many neighborhoods, you literally cannot think of a gmach which doesn’t already exist.
In terms of percentages of earning, we give many times over the amount of tzedaka as the average american.
You have got to be trolling.
Very predictable response. Read the haftarah- it calls for more than just tzdeka. It calls for an attitude of helping the afflicted and downtrodden. If you think that all the things you mention conform to what the navi is talking about, then mazal tov- you have Jewish “values (and you didn’t even realize it).
Also, I never read anywhere in Jewish texts that Jews’ tzedakah obligation was limited to just helping those who are Orthodox Jews.
Again with the canards! Yad sarah helps only Orthodox jews? It is probably the biggest provider of social services in israel across every line.
You are seriously bigoted. Seriously.
And yes, I am quite certain that my community is very good at everything the navi talks about. I have seen it all: Halo pros l’raev lachmecha… to the end.
Yad Sarah has a budget of 100m shekels/yr, of which 97% is provided by donations.
So, charitable donations of ~$25m/yr.
The Jewish Federations (whose donors are predominantly if not almost exclusively non-Orthodox Jews) spent more than $160m funding programs and emergency campaigns in Israel and overseas in 2011.
OK. And there are many more non-orthodox jews than there are orthodox jews.
Also, I am not familiar with the Federations work in Israel, but in America, it has largely left the realm of tzedaka. They support hospitals, universities, and all sort of stuff like that, which doesn’t do much to help anyone.
How much of that Tzedakah goes outside of the Orthodox community, much less outside of the Jewish community?
See above. We give way more charity to non-orthodox jews than non-orthodox jews do.
Also, so what if it is mostly limited to jews? If I give huge amounts of charity, much larger than any other segment of the population, and I choose to help my own people first–that means I don’t care about poor people?
What a bizarre charge.
The point is that we have mutually identified a Jewish value- charity. And charity can take many forms, whether its money or supporting policies that help the poor. Dont you think that supporting meals in schools for poor kids is just as much a form of tzedakah as putting money in a pushka?
lol.
Are you seriously comparing when I take money that I earned and give it to a poor person, with when you vote for politicians who will force me to give them money which they will distribute to the poor?
There is no common value here. I am feeling people’s pain and sharing what I have with them to share in their plight and have them share in my plenty. You are assuaging your guilty conscience.
Supporting policies that help thousands of people is as important as giving charity to one person. One form is global and one is local, both important. By the way, did anybody ever mention to you that you are a rigid, self satisfied blow hard who cannot accept anything that you did not conceive of yourself?
Supporting policies is garbage. It gives up nothing from yourself. The whole point of chessed is to change yourself by giving up from yourself.
You are the first to mention that. Has this conversation come to insults now? You show your true colors right fast.
People have died fighting for policy changes (see civil rights movement), so please do not diminish its importance. You come up with a definition of charity that suits your argument. There are other ways to define charity, or dont call it charity at all, just call it helping people who need help. Isnt that the highest form of charity? Not surprised nobody called you what I called you before since you probably do not know more than a few people who do not think like you.
Way to change the topic talking about the civil rights movement. I’m happy to agree that the civil rights movement was an important and valuable movement, and I would be part of it.
And as it happens, I am an environment where very few people think like me. And all the people are very smart.
Was supporting civil rights a Jewish value?
Being smart means being open to new ideas
I just read through this post and all the comments (slow day at work). What I think is missing is a basic understanding of the mitzvot. Each mitzva contains within it not only a set of rules, such as do not perform avodah on shabbos, but also a set of values. like humans are not the masters over the universe and need to set aside a day that is removed from regular human pursuits. You cannot have one without the other; the rule part of the mitzva is as important as the value part, and vice versa. What disturbs me about so much of Orthodox practice is the over-emphasis on the rule part, without striving to integrate the value part into daily life. So you want to know what Jewish values are? They are the subtext and message of each mitzva and if these values are combined with the performance of the mitzva, then you have the equilibrium that I believe the torah strives for. Many of you seem to be able to see things as only black or white- the performance of the mitzva is paramount and any attempt to include values that are not part of the performance is heresy. People- we need to have both or we are just a bunch of rule following automatons, not living and feeling humans.
Shlomo Zalman: That is a complete canard and you know it. As I noted, the orthodox do much more tzedaka and chessed than any other segment of the jewish population–by many times over.
I don’t know how you are not embarrassed to make up such lies.
Tzedakha is a Jewish value because it is a mitzvah. Paying taxes for goverment imposed social policy that often contradicts Jewish values is merely Dina d’malchutcha dina.
Why isn’t it a form of tzedakah to support policies that feed hungry children?
Because you are not giving your own money. You are volunteering other people’s money, which is neither selfless nor noble.
By supporting a policy such as food stamps or in-school lunch programs for poor kids, I don’t think you are “volunteering other people’s money” so much as advocating how tax money should be allocated. In any event, if you believe a cause is right and benefits society and is consistent with the Jewish value of providing for the poor (leket comes to mind as a form of this kind of help that is not per se charity), I believe Jews have an obligation to support it. Unless we are all living in a society where we get to say how our taxes are spent, dollar for dollar, this is the reality of our political process. You can choose to say- I am going to only give charity directly to those I choose, or you can say- I want to live in a society where people are provided for on a basic level and don’t have to depend on people like you deciding whether they are worthy or not of your charity.
Looks who’s back. I thought you’d be embarrassed to post again on this thread after you viciously and baselessly attacked us as not caring about poor, when in fact it is quite proven that we care much more than you do.
Amazing.
Why cant we strive for both? Support policies that help the helpless and follow halacha? Why must our Jewish lives stop at the door of the shul?
Dan- your care for the poor is limited by your definition of it- giving money to people you choose to give money to. Please read the yom kippur haftarah. It doesn’t speak of your form of charity at all. It calls for a much more extended form of caring- “break the chains of the oppressed ” comes to mind. I’m not knocking your charity. What I am saying is the navi calls for a transformed society where the oppressed and downtrodden are set free. There’s more to helping people than putting money in a pushka, it’s about creating a society where people don’t have to rely on your hand-outs if they are unable (note: I did not say unwilling) to provide for themselves
If you are referring to welfare policies, that is giving money. That is, you are giving my money.
If you are referring to things like market regulation and want to do so in ways that change society, I generally think such schemes are unwise. I don’t think you can say I don’t care about poor because we disagree about how markets run.
We don’t need to get into a discussion about which policies would achieve these goals. The point of Heshy’s post and the comments here is that there is no such thing as “Jewish Values.” I think we just agreed on one- caring for the poor and downtrodden and extending it beyond simple charity. There are lots of others. Read the post from Shmuel Zalman above. A truly wise man.
I’m not discussing Heshy’s post. I’m responding to “Reb Yid” who makes up false and malicious charges that Chareidim don’t care about those value, when the clear facts prove that they care about them much more than you do.
Shlomo zalman’s post above is a lie and easily proven so. And was probably written by you.
This is one of the biggest struggles I have with the orthodox world, it seems to be bent on only supporting our own…so if there was a similar St Louis ship from Africa filled with goyim would we also allow it to be turned away from our ports?
and these Jews would be the first to yell at the rest of the world when the rest of the world sits by when Jews are in trouble.
Goy refugees from Africa? Got it for you. What have you done to help the continuous trickle of Afrikaaner refugees from the cultural genocide in Sud Africa?
Dan- you must have accidentally set your reply on auto-repeat. Whenever anybody challenges the Orthodox on their world view, you come back with- the Orthodox give more money than anybody else (by the way, do you have any hard data to back up this claim? I have a close friend who is a fund raiser at the UJA in New York and she raises tens of millions of dollars a year from non-religious Jews. Just sayin…). In any event, I said nothing about charity in my comment. I was making a broader point about Jewish values. And for the record, much of what I said I heard from a prominent Orthodox rabbi. So if you are going to respond, please make your response on point and stop calling everything you don’t agree with a “canard.” It may seem that way to you, but I would call it analytical thought.
Actually, it does prove the point. We give so much charity because we DO care about people, and because we ARE trying to incorporate the torah’s values into our lives.
There are many criticisms one may honestly make about our community, but this is absolutely not one of them. And for you to get up and make your ridiculous blood libels, is quite outrageous and frightening.
And I don’t deny that irreligious jews give a lot more tzedaka than the general population, and I am glad of it, and commend them highly for it.
And I don’t really care what some prominent orthodox rabbi said. Many of them are idiots.
Never criticized chareedim for not giving charity, particularly to their own communities. My issue is that they view halacha (which includes giving charity) as rituals to fulfill, not a premise for a total world view that encompasses people who are not like them. Show me one significant chareedi organization that helps starving people in the Sudan, or Tsunami victims in Japan or earthquake victims in Haiti? Sure, people can choose to take care of their own first or even primarily, but not to the exclusion of taking care of anybody else? I await your response!
So why don’t you stand up and say what you really think about the prominent orthodox rabbis? For it is from them that everyone else draws conclusions about the whole. Yes, we are guilty of that. But why is the sane chareidi community not more vocal about the policies that do not represent them?
And also, why are you, a Jew, using the term “blood libel” at another Jew? Whatever happened to Ahavas Yisrael, a Jewish value if there ever was?
In the States? What Orthodox charities are giving charity to the non-Orthodox Jews in any great amounts? Because the Federations are primarily funded by non-Orthodox Jews.
Dan- how is my post a lie? I am not saying that Charediim do not give tzedaka. I am saying that they (by and large) tend to view Judaism as a series of intricate rules and restrictions and lose sight of the fact that there are critical values behind these rules that are supposed to transform the person into a person that is highly sensitive to the needs of others and acts on those needs. Part of acting on those needs is not simply giving charity but ensuring that we live in a more just and fair society. You seem to see words like “values” and “fairness” and “helping society” as treif and I guess that is because you were exposed to Jewish thought by only halachists. Try reading (with an open mind) some Heschel and then we can talk (or is he treif too because he wasn’t affiliated with some yeshiva somewhere?)
It is a lie because it is a false accusation. Everybody, you included, knows that chareidi jews are much more likely than other segments of society to care about helping the poor, and doing chessed, etc.
I don’t see those words as treif at all, and I believe in them. As do all chareidim, as everyone knows. That is why this is a canard.
You don’t know a think Dan about Federation if you say they help Universities. They primarily fund social programs here and in Israel. And since when is supporting a hospital “not helping anybody.”
By some of the arguments in this thread, orthodox Jews who pay both day school tuition and taxes while getting no tax break for removing theid kids from public school rolls are giving a LOT Of tzedakah to the non orthodox, the vast majority of whom fail their Jewish kids by giving them a public school education and laughable supplemental bar mitzvah training as a poor substitute for Jewish education.
Now, I feel better for both making a rhetorical point and taking a swipe at the Jews who are afraid their kids will be “too Jewish”
“Just because some of these values coincide with what are today considered “liberal values”, does not diminish their importance in Judaism.”
::applauding::
… But are not a substitute for Judaism.
Tolerance? Please tell me where you find evidence of it in Navi? Or in any Torah portion for that matter? The command to wipe out the 7 nations of Israel was not becuz they were “evil”, or murderers, or anything else. They chose to worship idols. They chose to practice their own religion, as it were. And yet God said to kill every last one of them for not worshipping only Him. Yet liberal Jews would kill themselves to defend everyone’s “right” to worship whomever they want. That is NOT a Torah or Jewish value at all. Judaism demands our INTOLERANCE, not our “live and let live” posturing just to save our own necks.
Obviously, nobody is calling for tolerance of Nazis and criminals. What people do call for tolerance about is other people’s viewpoint, even when it differs from yours. It is a very dangerous thing to read about the conquering of the Land in Shemot and draw modern day geopolitical lessons from that. I think what is described there was what was done there and then. I don’t see where we are told to do the same thing in every situation like that.
Oh really? Maaseh avos siman l’banim. It is very much a lesson for future generations. Nobody is talking about Nazis and crimianls. I’m talking about such things as participating in a church service, inside the church, commemorating MLK’s birthday. It happens here in Baltimore every year. Then the so-called rabbis invite the goyim into their “temples” to use the building for their idol worship as well. That type of “tolerance” deserves to be met with venom worse than that of a king cobra. But the liberal reform Jews will flock to such things in the name of good neighbor relations and tolerance.
And furthermore, did you know that Reb Moshe himself told a man who was asking if he could attend a minyan of conservative & reform Jews in order to say kaddish for his parent, during shiva no less, that it was better to not say kaddish at all than to join them! You would call that the worse form of tolerance because it involves other Jews. I say it’s pure daas Torah and we should all emulate it.
Going to a church service and commemorating MLK day are two very different things. I agree that there are those that take things too far in the name of “tolerance”, but there are people who take things too far in the name of “halacha” as well. Arguing from the extremes is just not helpful. What is wrong with acknowledging the work done by MLK? I think he did great things. Yes, he was human and like all humans (including your so called “gedoliim”), he was flawed, but his work changed the lives of everybody in this country for the better.
Ok, let’s try this again, and this time read before you open your trap.
The church service WAS the commemoration. It was in honor of MLK. It was held IN a church, ON MLK day. NOT 2 different things. Got it? Are we clear Lt. Caffey? Are we clear?
A Jew is forbidden from entering a church. It is forbidden to allow goyim to hold their services in a shul. But, since where the reform congregate is not a shul, and the Torah they have in their ark is pasul anyway, maybe that’s how they get away with it. Or maybe, just maybe, it’s becuz libs like you have the attitude that if they aren’t bothering you, why bother them.
P.S>, the RMBM himself says that the way to bring the person back from 1 extreme is to have him go to the opposite extreme first.
And so what to you suggest that we do about it, Pinchas? How are you going to implement your “venom worse than that of a king cobra”? Threaten the rabbis? Bomb the Reform temple? How about the church too since we’ll be burning up idols? This is no longer the world of three thousand or even three hundred years ago. Tolerance for differing customs within the rule of law is what allows us have over 300,000,000 people in the United States without tearing each other to bits.
If those Jews want to participate in a service in a church, how does that hurt you? They and their congregants have to make their own choices about what is right.
I just think you are a nosy a**hole who likes to tell other people what they should and should not do.
Typical American liberal response. Stop thinking like an American and start thinking like a Jew.
You obviously have a different idea of what tolerance is than I and other OJ’s do.
For you, it means not only letting people do what they want, but supporting it in every way possible. It means marching for gay rights and gay marriage, because God forbid if you don’t, your post-Holocaust mentality makes you think that after the gays they will come for the Jews again. It means voting for a politician that supports gay marriages, affirmative action, and any number of social disease foddering laws.
For me and my friends, intolerance doesn’t mean blowing anything up (though I for one do wish it was possible). For us tolerance means putting up with having to sell a house to a negro becuz the gubment says we have to, like it or not. It means I wish my black and Hispanic neighbors would live in a different part of town, but I tolerate them as best I can. I do not now, nor will I ever invite them over, have my kids play with theirs, or go to their bbq or have them to mine. It means tolerating a JCC being open on Shabbos becuz there’s nothing we can do about it. But support it? Fight for it? March for it? NEVER! Meet the new Orthodox Jew of 2012, aka the Jew Klux Klan.
Are you for real? If so, you are scary and a chillul hashem
WTF-ever. Gotta love how these same old phrases come up all the time. Tolerance, chillul Hashem, tikun olam, blah blah blah. It’s all bullshit excuses for not following God and following the American flag instead.
Yeah I’m scary. I have a bad back, diabetes, and I smoke 2 packs a day. If you’re scared of me you’re an idiot. But I’ll tell u this much. If I had enough money to fund an organization similar to the old KKK that liked Jews, I’d be writing a check right now.
Why is being in sync with American values not consistent with being a Jew? I take back what I said. I am not scared of you. I feel sorry for you and how you view the world with such hostility.
What, exactly, makes the Torah pasul?
if it’s written by an apikorus, it’s pasul, and is required to be burned. reform/conservative = apikorsis. now if it was done by a OJ, its not pasul, but those using it are.
The sad thing is that so few Reform and Conservative Jews care enough about Judaism to become sofrei stam (or any other religious role) that most Reform and Conservative shuls’s scrolls are probably written by Orthodox Jews who don’t even recognize their Jewishness.
Nah, they are probably written in china.
Why would an Orthodox Jew not recognize the Jewishness of a reform or conservative Jew born to a Jewish mother?
Jewish is as Jewish does.
Halachically, lots of people are Jewish.
But not that many people actually try to *be* Jewish.
I will simply yell Ahavas Yisrael, Ahavas Yisrael, Ahavas Yisrael at the top of my lungs until you get that point. Are we clear? Are we clear?
pulling on your pipe is against halacha — you’d have to burn every house in the community down. take a black light to the bedroom for confirmation, but i think it is possible you might find some transgressors…
If king Shaul would have listen’d to G-d and he would have wiped out every single trace of Amaleik, men, women, children, and animals, then we would not have had a Hitler. That’s Jewish values. And if there is no G-d than Hitler did nothing wrong.
> If king Shaul would have listen’d to G-d and he would have wiped out every single trace of Amaleik, men, women, children, and animals, then we would not have had a Hitler.
You have genealogical charts showing Hitler’s descent from Agag? That’s incredible! You must share them.
> And if there is no G-d than Hitler did nothing wrong.
How do you figure? Do you imagine that without God, there is no morality? Because even with God, there is no objective morality. And once we get past the myth of an objective morality, morality is the system(s) that have developed, biologically and socially, to promote good for the species. Under every moral system, murder is wrong.
So Why don’t you stop the gays from murdering each other with AIDS? Why can the gay lobby do whatever they want and get away with it?
See kooloytoyra.blogspot.com, (Click Sep. 25, 11)
According to Hitler’s G-d, he was right to wipe us all out. Read the X-tian bible. The Gospels have some horrible things to say about us.
You read the Gospels. Find a statement that encourages the murder of Jews, or anyone else for that matter. According to the Gospels, you are not even supposed to raise a hand in self-defense.
“Resist not evil. Do good until those that persecute you. If any man strike you on one check, turn to him the other also.”
That was Jesus himself. Or how about:
“What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all!”
That was St. Paul
As far as Hitler and Nazi party, they explicitly and repeated rejected Christianity as a “weak” “Jewish” religion. Their religion was the pagan religion of Woton and Valhalla. See Hitler’s eulogy at the funeral of Reinhard Heydrich (2nd in command to Himmler.) Hitler even ordered that crucifixs be taken down in Catholic hospitals so that when German babies were born, the first thing they saw would not be “that Jew.”
Cat. mom,
I guess you forgot about the inquisition, where thousand of Jews were tortured and burned alive for practicing Judaism in hiding. And the hundreds of church based pogroms and expulsions that occurred in Europe during the middle ages.
Christian priests always found a way to incorporate Jew hatred when it suited their cause, and their followers were only to happy to carry out atrocities against us for about 1000 years.
Save the “jesus was a jew” crap, for some “odd” reason, it never seemed to work in our favor.
None of that is in the gospel, however.
Based on the comments on this thread, what would be your bet that the various folks involved would start an Inquisition of their own (rooting out people who “pretend” to be Jews but actually aren’t, at least by their standards) complete with stake burning, if they were living 500 years ago and happened to have the power to do so? Are tolerance of complete rejection of your religion (as you perceive it) and non-violence (in word and deed) towards those who you perceive as rejecting it “Jewish values?” Not that I can see here.
Cat mom,
Tough to tell, I wasn’t around 500 years ago, nor were we in any position of power at that time.
What I can tell you is that when we were in charge of Israel during biblical and Mishnaic periods, we did control religion in our country. Visitors were allowed, but “permanent residents” had to renounce idol worship and observe Noahide law as a minimum.
To the best of my knowledge, we didn’t actively seek out those that were trying to cheat the system (the way the inquisitors did), Jew or non Jew. However, rules were in place to punish offenders in accordance with Torah law, in which idol worship was a capital offense.
In that sense, liberal values such as freedom of religion and freedom of expression had no place in that society during that time period.
Bingo. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Cat mom,
I’m just happy to live in a country where the church has virtually no power anymore.
Up until about 100 years ago, the Quebecois were ruled by fanatic priests that pretty much had the unsaid power to rule as they wished. They rebelled, and today, the Quebecois are the least “observant” of all catholics in North America. In fact, 85% never marry, they simply live with their spouses as “common law marriages”. Futhermore, most Quebec use sacraments as their cursewords.
Unfortunately, their hate for all religion is spilling over into other religions, they are actively trying to ban Jewish/muslim religious symbols and education.
On the bright side, they still have xmas, most profitable period of the year for Jewish merchants.
Quite sure that holiday was invented by Yankel the peddler, but that’s a story for another time 😉
Unless you’re a Canadian, you live in a country where the Church never had any power. On the other hand, if you’re a Quebecois, that explains a lot. You have, however, dimly begun to grasp that after radical secularism finishes destroying Christianity, you will be next.
Anon,
I think the muslims are in line before us.
That was me, of course. No, the radical secularists love the Muslims (for now). It’s that “bad bad Christians, awful Crusades, poor Muslims are the victims” thing. You wait though — by the time this century is finished the secularists will be organizing their own Crusade. I mean — those of them who are left.
Cat mom,
There is no love lost between muslims and Quebecois. A few of the more liberal ones court them, but for the most part, “Pure Laine” Quebecois don’t like any changes to their culture. All races, religions and languages that are not white/catholic/French speaking are seen as threats to their identity.
In attemps to keep a French speaking majority, the Quebec government has been importing immigrants from French speaking countries, such as many of the arab countries originally colonized by France, Haiti, Cambodia, etc. As these populations/cultures explode in comparison to the Quebecois, they grow more weary of them.
not factually true. I’m calling you a liar. The Notzri religion ===did=== slowly gain ground in Eretz Yisrael, EXACTLY BECAUSE it did NOT run into any crushing persecution. It exploded amongst the Nations, of course; and it was the Nations who, in the beginning, persecuted it. The Jesus Cult has been established in Bethlehem since before the destruction of Herod’s Temple (the guy was like the Robert Moses of his day, loved to build by taxing working-class Jews). It’s only the Muslims who bothered it in Bethlehem.
“Ye are all of your father, the Devil.” John 8:41.
At that point, I stopped reading.
Way to take a quote out of context!! Geez, you didn’t just stop after you read that — you didn’t read anything before it either did you??
A specific group of Jews are looking to have Jesus condemned (and executed) as a heretic. Jesus is arguing with them:
“I know that you are descendants of Abraham, yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have heard from my Father and you do what you have heard from your father.”
[Jesus is setting up an argument that he is faithful to his father, God, in doing what God wants, while they [the ones trying to kill him] are not following their father, Abraham, but rather the Devil. Therefore, they are not sons of Abraham, but sons of the Devil.]
“They answered him ‘Abraham is our father.'”
“Jesus said to them”If you were Abraham’s children you would do what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You do what your father did.'”
“They said to him ‘We were not born of fornification, we have one Father, even God.'”
“Jesus said to them ‘if God were your father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my words. You are of your father, the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desire. ….He is a liar and the father of liars. But beause I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? He who is of God hears the words of God, the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. ”
The argument goes on for some time, and ends with the men picking up stones to kill him, but Jesus escapes.
Read the entire thing up until that point.
They were following the Torah. Since the G-d of the Torah does not impregnate mortal women (thought it was a favorite pastime of the Greek Zeus), J– was preaching a false G-d. That makes him a navi sheker. As we learned in parshas Re’eh, a navi sheker must be stoned to death.
And obviously anyone who refers to a specific group of people who are trying to kill him as “sons of the Devil” is preaching the extermination of the Jews. Notwithstanding that he himself, his family, and every single person he knows is a Jew.
If this is your example of the “the X-tian bible has some horrible things to say about us” I’d say you have some serious reading comprehension problems. (Though I like the justification that they really should have killed Jesus. Of course, if somebody said that they actually DID, you would be all over yourself. The fact is, the Jews persecuted the Christians long before the Christians persecuted the Jews. Several thousand early Christians were killed by Jews in Cyprus, for example. Of course, later the Christians got the upper hand, became way more numerous, and were in a much better position to get pay-back. Which proves, as far as I can see, not much except that human beings have a strong tendency to act like turds.)
Hitler was hardly X-ian. He advocated restoring pagan Germanic religion.
Heshy- I am very disappointed in you. It seems that ever since you got married you have drifted to the right with the rest of the frummies that come out of the woodwork here from time to time. I’ll bet that over 90% of the people posting here in support of your point of view never read a book written by a non-Orthodox Jew or a non-Jew. They were also taught by people who never were exposed to these things either. So, of course, the only thing they know about is halacha and intolerance and fear and loathing of anybody that is different from them. Heshy- I put my faith in you that you would expand the horizons of these poor souls, not feed into their bigotry and shallowness.
had the Jews wiped out the Cennaanits COMPLETELY like G-o told them to, they never would have been EXPOSED to their evil, and they would not have learnt from their evil ways. (Psalms 106) (See kooloytoyra Feb 4, 11)
You’re the first in many ages to call me too right wing, all I get are emails from right wingers attacking my “liberal” views, but you may have noticed that I try to bring up all viewpoints, I almost like to brag that I’m one of the few bloggers to promote cross cultural and intra-faith dialogue. Just because I write something that smells too right wing for you does not mean that I myself have come right wing and visa versa…on the frum Jewish scale I would rank in left of center by most peoples labels, but from a charedi perspective my social tolerance (or live and let live way of living and breathing) would probably put me up there in the uber liberal categories.
Us BTs have read books from both sides. And we have seen the light, leaning rightward like Heshy since he got married. 🙂
Ever since he got married? Did you JUST start reading this blog, or does the meaning of the word “satire” befuddle you?
I think people here need to read more Levinas.
Or better yet, people should read Bava Batra 8a just to see the list of things that a town taxes for. And they should read through 11a
You’re a girl, so you have no bizniss looking at a Gemara.
And in general, all you libs and and righties take Heshy much too seriously. This is FrumSATIRE, not Tikkun or Commentary magazines. Jeez!
Whoops! Did my BT fingers just type a reference to JC? Good thing I’m going to the soon for my annual teshuvah dunk.
Deut 15:7
Personally, as I’ve become more religious I’ve actually become more liberal politically- maybe its because I’ve moved gradually through Conservative and then more to Orthodox environments.
So I’ve assimilated both some of the universalist values of liberal Judaism and the ritual observance of Orthodoxy.
I am exactly the same way, it also had to do with moving out of NY…wherfe you begin to see the community as a whole, not just some fragmented orthodox paradigm.
Values, if they are objective, can’t be Jewish. There can’t be Jewish chemistry or Jewish mathematics. Even if Jews do these things, that does not make them Jewish. and even if only Jews did them, they still would not be Jewish. Only subjective values can be Jewish. The reason we learn Torah is that because of the evil inclination it is hard for an person to discover on his own true objective values. So we need to learn Torah to discover these values.
However if someone would say then fine Jewish values are subjective-so what? Then it will follow that if we all took an attitude of approval towards Adolf Hitler, then Adolf Hitler would be good. Beside this there are other objections to Subjective values.
I think it is important to note that to the Rambam, the values of the Torah are objective and not observer dependent.
Jewish values are the 13 ani maamins.
The Torah is the bedrock of Judaism, so accepting it as G-d’s word is the ultimate Jewish Value. If you do not accept this, then the phrase has no meaning, as it has no ultimate foundation. Without accepting the Torah, “Jewish Values” are whatever people want to say they are.
But using the Torah….
Core Jewish value: Accept that all mankind is made in the image of G-d, which means everyone has to be treated with a core basis of dignity. Many halachos flow down from this – consideration for others in everything from avoiding embarassment to tzedakah to loving the stranger.
The Big Ten would also be among the obvious Jewish Values, even for those who reject the Oral Law.
“Why is being in sync with American values not consistent with being a Jew?”
Sometimes it is, but not consistantly. American values equals not impinging on rights set forth in the Constitution, nothing more and nothing less. Reference all the hoopla about the circumcision using the mouth to draw out blood issue. Reference the gay marriage issue. These are not Jewish values that can be given or taken away. But in America, what was once forbidden can be legalized, and vice versa. Gay marriage will never be permitted in Jewish law.
The value of human life is paramount, right? BUT, does American law say anything about chosing death over adultery, idol worship, or murder? No, so clearly the values are not the same.
You can also see from various places in Talmud and other sources that the “value” placed on non-Jews is vastly different than for Jews. The laws about damages, theft, rape, even murder are different. So even those values that we consider universal are not as equal as you think. No, I don’t believe it’s ok to kill a goy or steal from a goy, but the laws applicable to these things are very different. So really, in the end, a Jew’s life and property is in fact more important and more valuable than a non-Jew’s. I bet that stings a lot of libs out there. Seems that the credo “All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others” holds true for us.
If you’re referring to the ‘chosen people’; up until Mt. Sinai, every nation had the option of accepting G-d’s Torah and being the ‘chosen people’. G-d went around to all the nations and asked them if they would like to accept the Torah. And they asked “what does it say in the Torah?” And he answard, you can’t do this or this etc…. So they said “forget it.” But the Jews accepted it. Contrary to popular opinion, this world does not come for free. Now if you want the Torah you can convert, and join the Jews. But you will not have an easy life.
When the Jews threw away the Torah, G-d kicked them out of Israel, and it says in the Torah that at the ‘end of days’ the Jews will come back to G-d, and he will return them to Israel. According to the Church this was never supposed to happen. The “Jews” that would come back would really be the christian’s.
Can you imagine? After what they did to us in the Inquisition they want to be the real Jews!
And they asked “what does it say in the Torah?” And g-d answered.
And they Responded, “we have to cut off our WHAT???” and they then rejected Torah.
“He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice and love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-d.” (Michah 6:8)
Pretty simple. Actually Chavakuk simplified it even more: ” the righteous shall live by his faith.”
Also, if the other main religions take their ideas from Judaism, then of course, the line of values will be blurred, yeah?
I’m a liberal Jew because I don’t believe that ancient/medieval scholars > modern scholars. I think that Torah is alive and needs to be continually explored, debated, and studied. Now, when it comes to ritual observance, I am much more in line with Orthodox Judaism than I am with liberal Judaism. And even right now within liberal Judaism, there is a large movement towards more ritual observance (many more people my age, in their early 20s, are starting to keep shabbos and kosher, daven at the appointed times, etc. Not to be confused with BTs). Many of us are very involved in Jewish and non-Jewish charity and outreach organizations. We view our purpose here as leaving the world a better place and getting closer to HaShem through prayer and study. How are these not Jewish values? One can argue about how one improves the world and when and how to pray and what to study, but at their core, these are intrinsically Jewish values.
Nothing wrong with performing those rituals and doing tikkun olam. But with each ritual you perform, each mitzvah that you fulfill (intentionally, or not), you move close to the spirit and letter of those “ancient/medieval scholars” and farther from the “modern scholars”.
Reading this discussion has been, for the most part, a thoroughly discouraging experience. “Can’t we all just get along?” Not in my lifetime, apparently. There’s no need for external enemies when we are all, right, left, and center, so eager to form up as a circular firing squad at the slightest provocation, real or imagined.
I think perhaps a great deal of the umbrage that has been taken above comes from mistakenly equating the statement “X is a Jewish value” with the statement “X is exclusively a Jewish value.”
Just because, for example, most Americans who have nominal Jewish status and/or identity value unrestricted access to abortion for any reason and paid for by other people, does not make abortion a Jewish value. Jewish law (i.e the codification of real Jewish values) does NOT permit abortion, other than requiring it when the mother’s life or health are in danger.
A belief that Jewish values are democratic in nature or based on populism, is totally incorrect. Jewish values come from God-given Torah, and to put man’s secular political platform above God’s commandments is not Judaism or Jewish values, it’s a complete INVERSION of Judaism. Nobody can be forced to believe or observe, but those who neither believe nor observe should STFU and stop saying what they do is Judaism or based on “Jewish values”. Just my opinion.
Hitler did nothing wrong!