As much as I respect Lubavitchers and hang out at chabad houses, I understand that people dislike chabad for many reasons, some founded and some unfounded – the number one reason being the messianic stuff(which no one has ever been able to explain to me if it is really against halacha or just not politically correct). When you hang around chabadnicks long enough you learn to be able to tell the difference between the Meshichist and Anti-meshichist chabadnicks pretty easily.
Unfortunately, there has never been a PR campaign from chabad to dispel the common snag idea that all members of chabad believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and I think that is one of the reasons many people think so. One of my biggest issues with the concept of the Rebbe being Moshiach is that it really belittles the Rebbe’s accomplishments as one of the Gadol Hadors of the 1900’s. I am super proud, that the only funeral of a great Rav I have ever attended was the Rebbe’s lavaya (my father forced us to go and I’m glad)
I wish more chabadnicks would make videos and write posts about the issues and explain to people the heart break that goes in on chabad communities with regards to this issue. I think the video below is a really good at the issue – not just some angry anti-chabad rant, which it commonly is.
Sunday January 10, 2010
24 Tevet 5770
PUBLIC NOTICE
It has been brought to my attention that on the 10th of Teves (Sunday December 27th) this year, a day on which our Rabbis decreed that we are obligated to fast, as stated in Shulchan Oruch (Code of Jewish Law Ch. 121), a small group of individuals organised a festive meal at which they ate, drank and rejoiced. They subsequently publicised their actions by posting a film of the festivities on international websites, together with the message and implication that such behaviour is highly commendable and is connected with the coming of the Moshiach.
I therefore wish to state unequivocally and to emphasise in the strongest manner that the above actions, being as they are contrary to the explicit rulings of Chazal and Shulchan Oruch, are totally unacceptable at any time or in any place. That the perpetrators of such misguided deeds should then endeavour to make their behaviour known all over the world, constitutes a massive and reckless Chillul Hashem which can have no justification. In addition, these actions do not represent that philosophy and way of life taught by Chabad Chassidus, in any way or form. They are totally contrary to the wishes and directives of the Rebbe and those who carry on his holy work. To present such conduct as being in accordance with the Rebbe’s teachings and message is a complete fabrication, and can only serve to destroy the good name of Chabad in the general community.
In light of the above, I find it necessary to rule that until the perpetrators of these deeds stand before a Beis Din of three Rabbonim, and seek forgiveness and correction of that which they have done, they are to be ostracized by all members of the community. They cannot be counted as part of a minyan (for davening) or mezuman (for bentsching), and one may not answer Amen after their Brochos. They cannot be given a Aliyah to the Torah or honoured with any other Mitzvah (see Shulchan Oruch, Yoreh Deah Ch. 334 Para 2). Similarly, one should not speak to them or have any business dealings with them.
May the Al-mighty restore His broken fences, and put into the hearts of those who have gone astray, a spirit of true Teshuvah.
Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Telsner
Yeshivah Centre
shut up cave man
I think the majority of chabad sits in the middle. ie. “The rebbe is a perfect candidate for moshiach, but if it were someone else its also good.”. The classic “but hes dead” arguement is irrelevant, the chain of events are pretty simple. Shofar/Eliyahu announces moshiach has arrived, tzadikim are immediately reserected, moshiach brings jews to israel etc… Its unwritten that Moshiach must be alive when eliyahu comes and announces his coming, additionally there is a gemora in sanhedrin, last perek, which can clearly be read to insinuate that moshiach can come from those who are not alive(but it can also be read other ways).
The fact that this discussion has gone out of chabad circles is unfortunate, not because we are embarrased of the discussion, but because any moron can use the outliers against chabad which means actual discussion is unusual. The people that fakewood is quoting are actually deranged. I know them, so in good concience I can claim that they are mentally unwell, and it would be unfair to glean anything of their behaviour to what chabad actually believes
If I wanted a Moshiach who came back from the dead I’d become a Christian. No more sitting in the dark on Shabbos and I could eat bacon.
thats funny … and exactly the reason chabad peoople avoid discussing this, not that i cant answer, but i would be lowering to your level
I still would not eat bacon and nor would I desecrate Shabbos, but I believe that this type of mechayah masim was done before a little more than 2 thousand years ago. This line of thought started Christianity. In any event, we want Maschiach now!
I’m confused bais rivkah girl, do you think torah validates moshiach min hamasim or not? … (hint: what christianity says is not relevant to the answer) My answer : tayku
Sad Lubab, I believe that he will be from the living. I do not want to insult anyone’s beliefs, as I believe that the Rebbe was an important person, but sadly I do not think that he is (was) the Maschiach. I truly believe that we will not see Maschiach until we treat each other much better.Please daven for Maschiach’s arrival and please treat each other with more kovod.
You would if you had experienced baccon and a real weekend instead of being an old lady in a rigid young body
SORRY BUT YOU ARE IGNORINT TOO.
YOU ARE IGNORINT
The man in that video is no longer with us, bde. He has many beautiful videos.
is this for real??
yeah he is sadly dead, he died i think 7 years ago, his family doesnt want to reveal the cause of his death from what i heard.
This posts and posts similar to it remind me of a Russian fable about an elephant and a dog. The elephant was walking, and the little dog was yapping, thinking that it actually matters in any way to the elephant.
What a genius.
He ceased following the Lubavitcher because he needed a physical Rebbe.
So he became a Breslover.
Hasn’t the Breslev rebbe been dead for over 200 years?
lol, love it!
The thing is, there are several leaders of the Breslov movement today that function like Rebbes — you know, they are highly revered for being great tzaddikim and people come to them for advice and blessings and so on. R’ Shalom Arush, R’ Eliezer Berland, etc.
There are even bizarre incidents like this (the unnamed Rav may well be R’ Arush), which sound like Ba’al Shem Tov stories.
http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/2009/02/snowstorm-and-heavenly-beis-din.html
it seems to me, while the man in the video is articulate, he may not actually think for himself, and look up sources for himself. The very fact that he says Prof David Berger is in a secular university (Head of Revel- YU) and that he started the anti-meshichist movement is simply wrong. There were many litvishe and chassidshe rabbonim/rebbes who were against lubavitch for decades before david berger’s book came out.
So while it may be true that the rebbe could have been a candidate during his lifetime, what would have been so wrong for the man-in-the-video to say that we have to look or recognize a candidate during our lifetime? Why does he have to start going into explanation or apologetics for those that believe the previous (R’ MM Schneerson) Rebbe is moshiach?
the chain of events are pretty simple. Shofar/Eliyahu announces moshiach has arrived, tzadikim are immediately reserected, moshiach brings jews to israel etc… Its unwritten that Moshiach must be alive when eliyahu comes and announces his coming, additionally there is a gemora in sanhedrin, last perek, which can clearly be read to insinuate that moshiach can come from those who are not alive(but it can also be read other ways).
And if this is true, then the Yidden are going to freak out when Eliyahu arrives and announces that Moshiach is a recently resurrected guy who was a carpenter from Nazareth in his former life.
Of course, it’s not politically correct to make a big fuss about mashiach. This is for good reason. When Jews make a fus about mashiach, what do you get, Bar Kokhba, Shabbetai Zvi, Jacob Frank, feh, who needs it? Hashem will send Mashiach whe He feels good and ready to do s, and meanwhile the rest of us should stop worrying about it. When mashiach comes, he’ll come, until then, let’s just do the best we can to make the world a tolerable place. And the first way to do that is to stop talking about mashiach.
And if this is true, then the Yidden are going to freak out when Eliyahu arrives and announces that Moshiach is a recently resurrected guy who was a carpenter from Nazareth in his former life.
see, its exactly this stupidity that ensures that you will never ever be able ot see this in an objective manner. For once can we have a discussion about jewish moshiach without someone equating belief in moshiach to christianity??
The big problem that I have with Chabad, aside form the messiah nuttiness, is that they are big on forcing Chabad minhagim on people who have no Chabad background. And they imply that their minhagim are the only authentic way to be Jewish. Plus, they are total right wingers on the Arab-Israeli conflict, which I don’t think is a viable way to ensure the continued existence of Israel. And, of course, like all of the kiruv klowns, they act real nice and open when they’re trying to convince you to become frum, but once they recruit you, then you’re under their thumb and have to conform to all of their extreme community standards.
wow, ur really good at over generalising and spewing BS. Havn’tyou ever heard of Sinas Chinum??? Stop wasting your time putting down fellowjews and start working on yourself!
The big problem I have with idiots is that they are idiots. But of course, it can’t be helped.
My real problem with Mishichistim is that they have allowed the Rebbe to be discussed by such garbage.
can I know what exact minhagim you are talking about?
I think you responded to a wrong person.
Every group claims their “package of minhagim” is the most authentic path of Judaism. (I’ve never heard of any group, lubavitch included, say their way was the _only_ authentic path of Judaism.)
J.C,
Stop talking about moshiach??? Are you insane??? We only pray for him about 20 times a day…
To all you yechi people on here, see previous posts regarding this topic for the same argument gone over for the Nth time and get over your stupidity.
R. Krinsky, the closest person to the Rebbe still around that was the Rebbe’s personal assistant, summed up the yechi movement and it’s loud, in your face style, best in his recent interview with Mishpacha magazine:
When you bang a ladel in an empty pot it makes more noise…
Phil,
I’m no mishichist but there are two sides to everything. R. Krinsky & co. are being disingenious in concealing what the Rebbe did and didn’t disapprove of. It’s wrong to pretend that nun alef-nun gimmel were not clearly the instructions for us to follow in later years. There’s no chiyuv to push the Rebbe is moshiach issue but I wish they wouldn’t censor the Rebbe the way they do.
Chosid,
Read the mishpacha interview first. R. Krinsky clearly said the Rebbe disapproved and was more vocal about it in the earlier years.
And never mind the no chiyuv thing, the Rebbe himself clearly ruled (based on Rambam) that no one can be considered Moshiach until they rebuild the Beis Hamikdash IN IT’S PLACE. See previous posts to the related topics for the exact source of the Rebbe’s letter that states this fact.
The REAL Chabad leaders today are making steps to distance themselves from the yechi freaks and reconcile with the rest of mainstream chassidim and orthodox Jewry.
If I were in charge of the movement, I’d have each and every Yechi sign torn down, and every yechi freak that adds yechi to bentching and davening put in Cherem. They could start their own cult elsewhere. I think Postville is a good place, that way they can even have yechi shechita.
Ok and ask Rabbi Groner his opinion.Or Yoel Kahn. Or simply look at the videos. As far as your second point, just suffice it to say that there is a difference of being the metzius of moshiach bruchnius and being melech hamoshiach al pi halocha.
The Rebbe referred to the FR dozens of times as the moshiach of his generation.
Chosid,
If the FR was moshiach according to the Rebbe, how is is the Rebbe moshiach too?
All of the above contradict the mainstream view of Judaism that believes that the potential mashiach is always alive in a physical sense in every generation.
If Rashi in Sanhedrin holds the moshiach coming from the dead would be Daniel, how does R. Groner or anyone else today dare argue with Rashi?
Furthermore, if screaming yechi at every possible interval, and making flags, yarmulkas, talis bags and underwear with yechis on them end up segregating Lubavitch from the rest of mainstream orthodoxy, doesn’t doing so cause a chillul Lubavitch in addition to Chillul Hashem?
Besides, what right does anyone have to add parts to davening and bentching? Doesn’t tehillas hashem skip yigdal and akdomus because it was authored at a later date in history?
If the yechi people are right to add their baloney to davening, why hasn’t tehillas hashem been re-printed to include yechi?
Maybe we should change the Shabbos kedusha to read “al yedei Menachem Mendel” instead of “al yedei David”?
Or how about adding it to kiddush levana, since we’re already saying 3 sholom aleichems and 3 siman tovs, might as well add 3 yechis and 3 hail mary’s once were at it…
Well, a lot’s been added to davening over the last few hundred years. Look in the second book of the RMBM’s MT Sefer HaAhava. For a Yachid, from Barachu until Tachanun is the entire tefilah – no ptichat Eliyahu or psukai dzimra, no korbanot, no alainu. He even gives a one paragraph Amida for mincha for those who can’t take a break and pray.
MadMax,
I was referring to the Tehillas hashem stringency of not adding anything to the that came from an “unidentified source” beyond a certain point in time. Not exactly sure what the criteria is.
Yechi definitely didn’t come from any valid source. In my opinion, it was authored by a schizophrenic that escaped from a mental home.
It’s sad someone affiliated with Lubavitch doesn’t know the answers to such simple questions.
Chosid,
It a lot sadder that people that call themselves Lubavitchers have destroyed much of what 7 rebbeim took 200 years to build, turning what was one of the most respected factions of chassidus into the laughinstock of the frum world.
I’m no mishichist as I mentioned before. I don’t add anything to the harachamans besides what’s written in sefer haminhagim. I DON’T scream yechi after davening. I just know there’s 2 sides to every story and that fault lies on all sides. Just as you see fault with the mishichisten, I see fault with the antis. I see absurd censorship which can’t possibly the will of the Rebbe. I see empty, cold Judaism and forcing divisions among shluchim. I’ve got news for you we have been hated since day one. The hate has just taken a new form when the snags found another excuse to hate Lubavitch. Wherever there was respect, it certainly still remains. This isn’t after all a popularity contest. Let the Rebbe’s words represent themselves without this absurd censorship.
Chosid,
Their is no censorship, the Rebbe’s sichos and letters are clear for all to see.
And yes, many have lost respect for the movement due to it’s leaders not coming out against the yechi people strongly enough, and for allowing them to make a mockery out of CH and especially 770.
Why don’t you check out all the Rebbe “sightings” on Youtube, they remind me of the crackpots that keep seeing Elvis show up all over the place .
Nobody but a Lubavitcher learns them. And more importantly, what I’m referring to wasn’t edited in Likutei Sichos or written in any letter. I am speaking about the Rebbe’s behavior, not writings.
You clearly did not learn the Sicha of 2nd of Nisson 5748 where the Rebbe explains what Yechi is about.
One of the things that this announcement include is that the time has already came that those that are in the dust should arise and rejoice.
IS IT OK TO SAY THAT?
http://www.chabad.org/554614
My only thing is that this man obviously hasn’t read Berger’s book. Might have read an abstract, or perhaps he’s merely speaking conjecture, but he clearly hasn’t read the book. Bad enough he doesn’t even know who Berger is (thank you Neil P., you can argue about YU being “secular”, but it’s not like he’s some random man with a PhD from NeverNeverland University).
Berger’s book begins with a history of meshichism, from the last 10 years of the Rebbe’s life. Yes, I have friends who were at the Rebbe’s levaya who can confirm that it all started with 20 or so people dancing and making a scene; they said that he was “playing possum” like Moshe Rabeinu did when he went up to Har Sinai, and those who thought he was dead were like those who participated in Cheit Ha’Eigel. Berger discusses that, and then discusses how that grew to the movement it is now. There is very little in that part of the book that can be argued with.
The part that can–and is–argued with is the part where he holds the entirety of the Chabad movement responsible for Yechi’ism. He is even willing to go so far to not only denounce Yechi’ism as Avoda Zara and the rest as aiding-and-abetting; he’s even willing to call THE ENTIRE MOVEMENT ovdei avoda zara until they publicly denounce Yechi’ism. It’s a bit harsh, I admit, but if he had read it, at least he’d know the argument. Agree or disagree, it is well argued. I think Berger has much in common with the man in this video in that he believes that Chabad NEEDS to move on, and that they made a HUGE mistake in their willingness to cling onto a dead rebbe.
On a personal note: my first exposure to the movment was in 1993–right before the Rebbe was niftar. That summer, I was in Camp Regesh, and made a close friend who was a Lubab (currently, we’re both off the derech). They used to daven at a small Chabad shteible about a mile away from Ramapo High. From what I remember, his stepfather would ALWAYS make us walk out of shul right before Shir Shel Yom (or, if it was Shabbos, right before Adon Olam), and I didn’t understand why. He’d rush me and my friend in getting our tefillin off and hurry us out of the shteibel. One time, I stuck around and heard the kids reciting “Yechi Adoneinu…” and the adults repeating it. His stepfather heard me listening, and pulled me away from the door, forbidding me to hear those filthy words. He never did explain to me his beef with them (I can only guess). I haven’t seen the man for about 15 years. I did ask my friend (who I’m still in touch with), he has no recollection of this at all, and even if he did, I know it’s kind of a sore topic for him. So yes, even back then, there were those who were reciting “Yechi Adoneinu…”, and those who were viciously opposed!
So is it or isn’t it against halacha?
According to Rav Aharon Soloveichik, “[the idea of Moshiach being from the dead is] repugnant to everything Judaism represents.” Here is a page which has several articles about Rav Aharon’s opinion.:
http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/ras.html
NB the last article: Rav Aharon REFUSES to condemn Chabad as a whole, in part, or even The Rebbe himself. He had a great amount of respect for The Rebbe, and praises him a lot. But those who think that he could be moshiach, he thinks are “incredible!”
The way I see it, Soloveichik was not willing to go as far as Berger in issuing condemnations. Berger was even willing to go so far as to get the RCA to issue a statement in 1996 that “there is not and has never been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial, and resurrection before completing it.” According to Berger, it is mamash avodah zara. My understanding of Soloveichik is that it’s simply foolishness to believe it, and has no place in Judaism–but he wasn’t willing to go as far as Berger to condemn the group itself.
FOUND IT!
Rabbi Gil student presents a persuasive argument on the subject:
http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/moshiach_chap6.pdf
In summation:
(a) NO QUESTIONS that those who see the Rebbe as God or an essence of God are def. apikorsim
(b) to say that the Rebbe is DEFINITELY moshiach violates the Rambam’s 12 ikkar, that we must WAIT EVERY DAY for moshiach till he comes
(c) To say that the Rebbe COULD HAVE BEEN the moshiach is NOT apikorsus, BUT it “goes against Klal Yisroel’s concept of moshiach”.
In the article, he explains in depth.
I hope you found it helpful!
I dont understand why you feel that you have to change who your Rebbe is. Obviously there are many lubavitchers who are not meshicist and still regard the Rebbe as their Rebbe.
Your arguement That the Rebbe himself said he was moshiach is first of all very controversial b ut also, why would a chasid of the Rebbe be anti.if theRebbe said he was moshiach? Obvousely there are great Rabbi’s in Lubavitch and others who do not believe th Rebbe declared himself moshiach.
Many belive that the sources for the Rebbe saying this are taken out of context.
However, I do agree that there is still ALOT of ambiguity on the subject and that is why it is so controversial.
But like i said, i think its a huge shame that u feel that u had to change ur Rebe beause of this confusion.
Well you can have someone you follow – but in my view having a rebbe was someone you can talk to.
It’s similar to folks who go according to Rav Moshe or Rav Yaakov.
Here’s a PhD dissertation by an OTD former meshichist about whether the Rebbe thought he was moshiach
http://stores.lulu.com/atzmus
I dont understand why you feel that you have to change who your Rebbe is. Obviously there are many lubavitchers who are not meshicist and still regard the Rebbe as their Rebbe.
Your arguement That the Rebbe himself said he was moshiach is first of all very controversial b ut also, why would a chasid of the Rebbe be anti.if theRebbe said he was moshiach? Obvousely there are great Rabbi’s in Lubavitch and others who do not believe th Rebbe declared himself moshiach.
Fashion,
The Rebbe NEVER said he was moshiach. Period. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either ignorant or full of sh*t.
sad lubab, the gemara u quote is highly disengenuous; when the gemara says that moshiach can come from the dead it then goes on to say that if this would be the case, he would be dovid hamelech himself. also, eve if not, is the rebbe the best candidate from the dead? what about, i dunno, chizkiyahu hamelech who the same gemara says blew his chance to BE moshiach, or anyone else for that matter. face up to reality kid. btw, there is a very common psychological phenomenon (which occurs in almost everyone) that gives people the need to have someone to look up to, or even to guide them, this is why people follow celebrities (its also one of the reasons that people are attracted to religions like christianity and buddhism). according to a very prominent kiruv rav who most lubavitchers do not like at all (you know who i mean) this is why they held onto the rebbe and continue to do so. dunno how true it is, but i think for a certain percentage it may well be.
I’m with HJ on this one. Thinking the the Rebbe is the best possible candidate from all the tzaddikim that are no longer with us is self centered and egotistical, as if Lubavitch were “the only show in town”.
Let’s take it one step further, why not the Alter Rebbe who wrote Tanya and Shulchan Aruch or Frierdiker Rebbe that was reffered to as Moshiach by the Rebbe in his sichos?
Self-centered and egotistical?
Are you saying it’s self-centered and egotistical for a regular human to say who will be moshiach? Or are you saying it’s self-centered and egotistical for the lubavitch rebbe to be the messiah?
Your second question doesn’t make sense to me unless you are asking the first question. Please clarify.
Drum,
It’s egotistical on the part of any Lubavitcher that thinks that out of all the tzadikim we’ve had since King David, the Rebbe is DEFINITELY the king Mashiach, no questions asked, no other candidates even come close.
Phil,
Is it fair to say that you feel it’s egotistical for any _person_ to decide that any one person is definitely the Messiah?
Have you heard a Lubavitch rabbi say that the Rebbe is definitely the Messiah, no questions asked, no other candidates even come close?
Drum,
Every time someone says yechi, he is making a statement that he believes the Rebbe is “Moshiach vaday”, otherwise it would be forbidden to refer to someone as Moshiach. (See the Rebbe’s response letter I posted in a previous post for source).
And though it may or may not be egotistical for a person to believe that a specific person MIGHT be moshiach, it definitely becomes egotistical when a group of people not only decalres it, but puts banners in the street and flags on cars. As if they had the scoop on who moshiach is and the rest of the frum world are a bunch of blind idiots for not seeing the truth.
Anyone not learning Chassidus today when it is so available, is denying himself the ability to understand Elokus- G-dliness
So before going into Moshiach, check your pulse and check if you have a clue to whome you are davening, you may be davening to avoda zara, you may be an apikores, so stop fighting about Moshiach and start learning pnimiyus hatorah and all your questions will disappear. Taamu ureu ki tov Havaye.
Chassidus Chabad will open your eyes and you will get a total new perspective on what is a yid. what is Torah, Halacha and the entire porpuse of your very existence, need help? go to your local Chabad Shliach, in NY? sit down with a normal bochur in 770 or get in touch with jnet.com have a personal Chaver teaching you Chassidus
May we be zoiche in our time to hear pnimiyus hatorah from Moshiach as stated in Rashi first posuk shir hashirim
Before one dabbles in “Pnimiyus HaTorah”, don’t you think it would be wiser if they knew first what that Torah was to begin with? Chassidus, my friend, is one possible derech; but let’s not confuse Chassidus with Metziyus! I’ll give myself a healthy dose of it once in a while, but understand that much as it may enhance the Torah, understand that it’s not the Torah itself. I wouldn’t totally deny it, but I wouldn’t make it my essence either.
Full disclosure: I live in Israel, where my kids go to a state funded, Chabad run school; there is an openly Messianic Chabad Shul in my neighborhood, and the same people run the school and the Shul.
At my request, the teacher in my daughters class stopped saying Yechi after reading the Torah portion, due to my objection to teaching children that R. is the Moshiach.
At my request, the Rabbi of the shul explained to me “what Chabadnicks believe”. I assume that the poster “Shaliach” is a Chabad Rabbi and can make corrections to what I’m saying. The conversation was about a year ago, so this is what I remember. He said that all Chabadnicks believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. No one believes that he is G-d, and when they pray to the Rebbe it is in the same fashion that people pray to other Nifter Tzadikim to intervene with HaShem on their behalf. According to him, there are two groups in Chabad; those that believe that the Rebbe is Alive, and those that believe that he is Nifter. Those that believe that he is Alive believe that his body died, but instead of his Neshama going to Gan Eden it stayed in this world to aid people. Those that believe that he is Dead, believe that his Neshama did not stay in this world. Both believe that he is *the* Moshiach.
I feel fortunate that when I went to college, my campus Chabad shaliach came from an older generation of shlichim, and had a much more intimate knowledge of the Rebbe and Chabad’s history, than many of the younger messianic folks.
And he had no problem telling me that the “yellow flag” crowd was utter nonsense. Would he say it on YouTube? Probably not, but he generally avoids controversial subjects in public. His job is to hand out matzos, candles, lay tefilin, lead minyanim, and if you’re really interested- he handed out invitations to a place called Morristown.
Personally, I would prefer having a living rebbe, who I could approach with questions, learn from, etc.
As for Chabad, seeing that after two centuries of being led by a single figure, it now has no living rebbe as its guide. Perhaps there should have been an Eighth Rebbe, and a Ninth, etc, each with his own potential to be Moshiach, until the true Moshiach is revealed to the world.
Hey Serge, you woulda gotten a kick out of this dude I used to eat by when I was living in the Old City of Jerusalem 10 years ago. His name was Yonah Mendelsohn. This guy was old enough to have fought in 1948. By profession, he was a wine-maker; so he actually had correspondences between himself and The Rebbe where The Rebbe referred to him as “Sar HaMashkim”! This guy is as close as anyone ever got to turning me Chabad.
Anyway, I had eaten both Friday and Shabbos Lunch by this man. Great host, awesome food, and the best part for me was that his English was terrible so I got to work on my Hebrew a bit–he was very accommodating, and worst comes to worse he’d have his wife (who was fluent in English) translate for us. So toward the end of lunch, I asked him in my broken Hebrew what he thinks about Yechi Adoneinu. He got PISSED OFF! He started screaming at me “SHTUYOT!” and carrying on about what an insult it was to The Rebbe’s memory! I turned to his wife and asked her to help me out; I tried explaining that I think it’s ‘shtuyot’ as well, and tried apologizing for insulting The Rebbe’s memory. His wife tried to concede on our behalf, and he started yelling at her for defending us! (poor lady). Thankfully, we got through to him, because he still gave me an open invitation to his house anytime I wanted (and I hit him up plenty). But yeah, there’s my experience with an old-school Chabadnik and his vitriol toward these pezzonovante Yechiniks.
My favorite quote of that weekend. He was selling us on why he loves being a Chabadnik so much, and the analogy he gave us was of his days in the military. Chabad, he explained, are like the Tzanchanim (paratroopers); they jump into the heat of the battle and rescue people. He then went on to compare Chabad to another Chassidic group, Karlin-Stolin. This group is famous for screaming the entire davening on the top of their lungs! I’ve got stories about them, but they’re for another time. So anyway, he compared the Karlin-Stolin chassidim to “Petzatzot”, bombers. All that screaming they do, it’s like they’re dropping bombs on you; but Chabad, they jump in the battle, and they rescue you.
Didn’t Matisyahu switch to Karlin-Stolin?
What it comes down to is this:
The Rebbe could have been Moshiach. As to this there’s no question. He was clearly a viable candidate while he was alive.
Could he still be Moshiach after his death? There is a passage in Maseches Sanhedrin that seems to imply that this is the case. Rashi clarifies that this IS in fac the case, that Moshiach can indeed become Moshiach after having been nifter. You really can’t claim that the Rebbe, or any other person who wouold have been a viable candidate during their lifetime, is no longer a candidate once they’re, unless you’ve decided to be koifer in the Gemora and Rashi.
The Rambam states that if a person is KILLED, not if he DIES, if he is KILLED, then he cannot be Moshiach. The Rebbe was not killed, he died.
So ultimately, there’s no chiyuv to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, but just the same, there’s no issur to believe it, or anything even remotely wrong with it. Yes, some people feel uncomfortable with it, but it’s not your place to condemn things just because you don’t believe in them. There is no legitimate Jewish source (unless you’re a David Berger chossid) that says Moshiach cannot have died before being Moshiach, and we have several sources, including the Gemora, that he can.
This has nothing to do with what I believe. I am not a Lubavitcher, I’m just a kosher Yid who sees a bunch of great people being persecuted and slandered for reasons of politics. Meshichism comes down to personal conviction. It’s not something that you have to believe in, or something you can’t believe in.
Eitan,
a friend of mine wrote this back to me after sending him your comment:
Sefer Shoftim, Hilchos Melachim, Perek 12, Halacha with my paraphrasing:
1 The moshiach will come in the future and return the kingship, establish a government, build the Bais HaMikdash, gather the dispersed of Israel, establish the administration of Jewish Law, bring Karbonos and do everything else in the Torah.
8. If there is a king that is worthy, meaning he follows the Torah B’csav and Torah SheBaal Peh like his father David, and stregnthen all of Israel and he fights the wars of Hashem, then he is a presumed Moshiach. If he suceeds and builds the Bais HaMikdash and gathers the dispersed Jewish people he is definitely the Moshiach.
9. If however he does not succeed or he dies, then know that he is not the one, but is rather like the other dead kings.
This is just my free abridged translation.. Read it at Mechon Mamre
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e511.htm
For fun read the next couple of halachos about Yoshke and the Moslems and their errors.
In any event, I don’t think that the previous Lubabitcher Rebbe z’l fought the wars of HaShem. He certainly failed to rebuild the Bais HaMikdash and to gather the dispersed.
I can’t find the source, but there is allegedly a Rambam that Moshiach must arise from Eretz Yisrael and be unknown before that.
In any event, this is like the situation with R’ Akiva and Bar Kochba. Rebbi Akiva thought that Bar Kochba was Moshiach. When Bar Kochba was killed, that was it and R’ Akiva knew he was not Moshiach.
Eitan,
A lot of people could have been moshiach, does that mean they are all moshiach?
As for the Rambam, you seem to forget everything else he said, about gathering the Jews to Israel, and rebuilding the Beis Hamikdash in it’s place.
Rashi also says that if moshiach comes from the dead, he will be Daniel.
The yechi declaration runs contrary to what Jews have believed for nearly 2000 years, that’s why it offends and even angers some people.
What’s worse, is that the yechi people are so in your face about it, shouting it in shul in middle of davening, putting flags and banners in the street, on their homes, cars, tallis bags, yarmulkes.
Can you imagine every Jewish sect doing the same? What kind of chaos would we have? Would anyone accept mashiach when he finally shows up if he wasn’t their icon?
The entire idea is absurd, for lack of a better word.
The point that I was making about the rambam was that his actualnwords say that if the person is killed, as in attacked and killed, as was the case with bar kochba, he cannot be moshiach. It seems that merely dying does not disqualify you, and the Gemara attests to this.
Aditionally, rashi says that if moshiach cokesfrom the dead, he will be LIKE Daniel, not necessarily Daniel himself.
But the main thing I’m trying to get across over here is that this is soley a matter of personal conviction. Lubavitchers that believe that the Rebbe is moshiach believe that he is GOING to be moshiach. Everyone knows the beis hamikdosh hasn’t been built yet. The belief is that the rebbe will in the future be the redeemer. This is a personal conviction, without support or dissent in halacho. It’s clear that it’s possible, so you can’t really argue against it besides to say that you don personally believe in it.
As for the in your face yechi people, yes. They can be alittle annoying and embarrasing sometimes. But at least they’re excited for moshiach. That’s more than I can say for a lot of Jews. The best thing to do is to let it roll of your shoulder.
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If the rebbe is Moshiach, when did Eliyahu HaNavi appear to the Beis Din HaGadol to inform them of his arrival, as is the consensus of our Sages in Eiruvin 43b?
Just published a comprehensive book on this topic from an Halachic viewpoint, covering all aspects of the controversy. Called “The Alternative” (to Moshiach Bow), it is available at Amazon and Mazo Pub;ishers, If you send me a mailing address, I will forward you a copy.
The idea of a Moshiach coming and fixing everything is beyond niave and divorces humanity from any responsibility of fixing OUR problems. Its childish to think if we doing our ocd rituals a magic man will come on a donkey and fix what we have done. Grow up
here are my questions and observations about the subject…
1. the gemera that says moshiach can be min hameis and if is he will be like daniel. the gemra includes rejected opinions and one cannot paskin halacha from gemera. there is clearly a seperation between different eras of Jewish leadership and taking halacha direclty from the gemera is clearly no how halachic decisions are made today. furthermore the Rambam who does elaborate hilchos mashiach doesn’t claim that moshiach can be min hameis.
2. tzadikim don’t die claim. there is an interesting gemera that talks about how rebbe yehuda hanasi wasn’t actually dead after he passed away and they knew this was the case because he would make kiddush for his family. first of all assuming we take this literally. at what point did rebbe yehuda hanasi die b/c clearly he isn’t still making kiddush? secondly when was the last time the Rebbe made kiddush?
3. the Rebbe was against saying yechi. many make the claim he supported it. the truth is at a certain point the Rebbe wasn’t going to fight with anyone. furthermore those who made publications and declarations about him being moshiach when the Rebbe was still with us were told to stop and that by continuing such activities they were working against him
4. the rebbe said moshiach will be born on tisha b’av (yes the neshamah of moshiach can literally be within an infant because this is the day in which moshiach will be born and it is a specific person which is born on this day who will later be revealed to us to be moshiach. moshiach will be revealed to us. it isn’t on any person to become moshiach)
5. The Rebbe says in his sichos that moshaich will be of flesh and blood and will fulfill mitzvos as a living person. doesn’t sound like moshiach could be from the dead to me.
6. from lekutei sichos… “When the Alter Rebbe was by one of these Gedolim, the discussion turned to the question of from what group Moshiach would be, Chassidic or Veltlicher, and the Alter Rebbe answered – ‘Moshiach will be a Veltlicher. Why? Because if he will be a Chossid the Veltlicher Jews will not want to go out of exile, but if he will be a Veltlicher, the Chassidim, who are kabolas-olniks, will anyway automatically accept him, since for them the main thing is to go out of exile.” the Rebbe asserts that moshaich won’t be a chassid. so then how is the Rebbe moshiach?
the yechiniks have their own agenda and they purposely distort the Rebbe’s teachings.