You may have noticed that I don;t poke my head into Israeli politics, I don’t understand them much and when it comes to what “pro” and “anti” Israel may mean I don’t really know an since I don’t automatically assume that the JDL is pro Israel and J street is anti-Israel I may get myself shot – so I stay out – but after being forwarded the NY Times article (I know they are rabidly Anti-Semitic – sue me) about the situation regarding stipends for Charedim who don’t work in Israel – I figured I had to throw my uninformed opinion into the mix.
My first response was “hold the truck up, you mean to tell me that for sitting around and learning or doing nothing, Haredim get paid by the government and someone who is considered a Haredi Rabbi said something about this bassackward practice is considered amalek?”
In America it’s quite different, the generation before the current one worked, so we have some form of support system, we also tend to get jobs at some point – there are thousands of Charedim (yeshivish and chassidish) that work full time, many making a lot of moneyt so they can support yeshivas if they feel like doing so, but this doesn’t seem to be the case in Israel.
I myself don;t really believe that people sitting in yeshiva learning and bettering the world, but if they have a support system to do that and aren’t really hurting society by learning ancient texts and drinking instance coffee (this might be hurting society by keeping instant coffee companies in business) while their wives slave away at their basement photography business and sheitel washing companies I’m cool with it.
What I find most interesting and I know it;s been said a thousand times before, is that these people are taking handouts from a government and state they choose not to support nor acknowledge, this is insane. I know Americans take handouts, I have many friends sitting in yeshiva who are on food stamps, medicaid and WIC, but they would be on those even if they were working and not being paid enough and many of them being true Republicans look at themselves as hypocrites and want to change – is that the case in Israel?
its looks like theres a problem with ur don’t/don;t spellcheck
looks like you have a problem with spelling your
this headline is more antisemetic than some of cnns
If I remember correctly, Maimonedes did not look favorably on the Yeshivish lifestyle that did nothing but study and left all the work to others.
You’re correct and that’s what makes this all worse. The Haredim in Israel don’t work or they paid under the table (robbing Israel of money even though they feel free to accept handouts) and they treat anyone who opposes this economically retarded model as an anti-semite. Simple economics and common sense say this system needs to be reformed without having to go to what Rambam and the Torah say is moral!
Rabbi Chaim Amsellem is a great, courageous man and I hold in much higher esteem than I do the “Gadol” Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who allows Shas to tar him as Amalek. The whole thing is disgusting.
The Haredim of the day burnt the Rambams books – I wonder if that had anything to do with it.
Your ignorance is blatantly showing.
For the majority of Jewish history, there were only two “categories” of Jews. A shomer shabbat, and a mechalel shabbat.
“Hareidim” is a political term (recently created), for the group of Jews who didn’t puss out and copy the culture of the times, but is frequently used to blanket anyone who is serious about keeping Judaism pure – in the face of the “We want to be like the Goyim” people, regardless of their true present day political stance.
Those who burnt the books of Maimonides were none other than the greatest Rabbis of their generation, including the holy Rabbeinu Yona of Gerona. It was legitimately viewed as a threat to Jewish thought and survival.
It only became clear who the Rambam really was later, and they regretted their actions, and attempted to undo the damage.
> the group of Jews who didn’t puss out and copy the culture of the times
They did copy the culture of the times, it’s just that the times they copied was 19th century Poland instead of 21st century America. Despite pictures you may have seen, Moshe Rabeinu didn’t wear a shtreimel.
> Those who burnt the books of Maimonides were none other than the greatest Rabbis of their generation… It was legitimately viewed as a threat to Jewish thought and survival.
They burnt the Rambam’s books because he drew heavily on Greco-Muslim philosophy and radically reinterpreted many key concepts in Judaism.
What dress has to do with this – I don’t know. I hope your understanding of chareidim in general goes deeper than cloths.
“Didn’t puss out” means kept the value which has always defined a true Jew, that Torah and Mitzvos are the absolute most important things in the world, and override EVERYTHING.
I was unaware of the exact sources of the Rambam’s knowledge of secular philosophy. I always thought it was straight Aristotelian theory. Does that have anything to do with Greco-Muslim?
> What dress has to do with this – I don’t know. I hope your understanding of chareidim in general goes deeper than cloths.
It’s not just clothing. Chazzanus is opera, Shabbos morning drashos started as imitation of Sunday morning sermons, Chassidic dynasties function almost exactly like the dynasties of the petty aristocrats of Eastern Europe (complete with fighting to expand the Rebbe’s/nobleman’s territory), many old niggunim are Eastern European folk songs and the dances at simchas are copied straight from Eastern European peasants.
> “Didn’t puss out” means kept the value which has always defined a true Jew, that Torah and Mitzvos are the absolute most important things in the world, and override EVERYTHING.
Fair enough. But they’ve also invented some new values, such as that Torah IS everything, to the exclusion of anything else.
> I was unaware of the exact sources of the Rambam’s knowledge of secular philosophy. I always thought it was straight Aristotelian theory. Does that have anything to do with Greco-Muslim?
Yes
The Rambam lived at least 1,500 years after Aristotle. I dunno about you, but I would think that Aristotle came a long way in those years, yes?
The Rambam, like Sa’adya Ga’on before him, was responding to the philosophy that was prevalent during his time. It wasn’t just straight up Aristotle, but the brand of it that was revitalized by the Islamic intellectuals of the time. The Rambam, you have to remember, wasn’t just writing about some Dead Greek Dudes he took a fancy to; he was responding directly to a belief system that was en vogue during his time, and was causing many Yidden to detract from their Judaism. So he systemized a philosophy that was compatible with this neo-Aristotelian thought, only it was Jewish, not Muslim.
Israel is a welfare state. They happily support anyone who doesn’t feel like working, and give odd stipends even to people who do work.
My opinion on government programs is to oppose them always, but take anything they offer- better me than the next guy.
“Happily” might be a bit of an overstatement. Ask any secular Jew in Tel Aviv what they think about paying high taxes to support a bunch of parasites, and I doubt you will find a favorable response.
The problem is that as the Israeli government operates under a parliamentary system, forcing odd coalitions and inevitable capitulations to parties interested primarily in robbing the Israeli people of their hard earned Shekels.
If you really opposed government programs, you wouldn’t take them. Telling people that you don’t support bank robberies but will happily pocket the stolen cash spilling from the robbers gunnysack, lest the shmuck next to you pockets the money, hardly reflects well on your character. As a side, if you are collecting welfare you are either not making much money, or you are committing fraud, a crime punishable with serious fines and prison time. I would recommend finding a better paying job, or stop committing fraud.
When daniel says, “My opinion on government programs is to oppose them always, but take anything they offer- better me than the next guy,” he is NOT indicating that he is not really opposed, nor is he committing fraud, or being hypocritical. He is dealing with an actual situation that exists, that is not of his own making. In Israel, as in the US, the government robs (steals by threat of force) the productive to support the non-productive. If the government has not yet robbed daniel, don’t worry – it will, soon enough. Daniel is logically and morally correct to get everything he can, particularly legally, from this monster. Rest assured, he will not end up ahead, but he is entitled to minimize his net losses.
The situation is not at all comparable to that of a bank robber, who is robbing a third party. In daniel’s case, he IS one of the many victims, or will be soon enough.
Wrong.
By enlarge, people who qualify for welfare, do not pay any income taxes. Therefore, it is highly suspect that a welfare recipient has been “robbed” by any government. More likely, he is the recipient of someone else’s hard earned money, making my analogy perfectly apt.
Telling me about what the government “will do soon,” is based on mere speculation, not the facts.
Here are the facts: a couple with 2 children making $50,000 (the average American family), gets a refund of $34 in 2010. The maximum annual gross income in order to qualify for food stamps in the state of NY assuming the same couple and 2 chidren: $44,100.
Like I say, if you are collecting welfare, you are either poor and don’t pay any taxes, or you are misrepresenting your income, not paying any taxes, and committing fraud.
The lifestyle is personally offensive, and I find it a chillul Hashem. My bobbe and zaidy came here from Europe and worked for a living. If I married a guy who wanted to sit and learn all day and force me to support him and cook for him and clean for him a big belly and a kid on each leg, my zaidy would rip his hair out in distress.
BTW, The so called chareidim that are against the state, won’t ever accept any money from the state either, namely the Satmars.
From what I’ve heard, Reb Yoel figured that if any “temeim” supported the Satmar yeshiva system, they would eventually try to impose their “tamei” ideas in return for their support. The Satmar yeshiva here in Montreal never accepted any money from the Quebec govt. when all the other yeshivas (and are still) were doing it.
Back to Israel, they feel that they were in Mea shearim before the zionists, therefore have the right to live their, but I hear they won’t even collect welfare from the state.
I don’t know if my sources are 100% accurate, does anyone know any different?
Partly true. You have to give the Satmars and even Neturei *spit* Karta props for consistency. There are plenty of other sects which are happy to take the money but still oppose the State of Israel since it wasn’t a divinely created theocracy.
For the most part, Satmars and other groups who share their ideas (like Briskers), don’t take money at all. For anything.
Of course there is the unlikely but occaisonal exception who folds to the pressure of needing to feed his children yet not be ostracized by his entire community.
Can you say parasites?
They’re only parasites according to an ideology which doesn’t value Torah learning.
Unless of course you refer to those who don’t learn at all, and just take money while pretending to learn. In that case I think everyone would agree with you.
Nope. They’re parasites because they do no productive work, have no intention of ever doing so, look down on those who do and believe the rest of the world quite literally exists for their benefit.
Like I said, (if they really are learning) they’re only parasites according to people who don’t believe in the value of Torah learning, the way it’s described quite vividly in many places in the Torah, Talmud, and commentaries.
If you can state “as fact” that they do no productive work, then they can say you, and your life, as well as the lives of the entire world, exist for their benefit – quite literally.
It’s all a matter of what you believe.
this has been an issue that i’ve been discussing or rather arguing with my friends for the last few years. there is no way this system is sustainable. but people argue that “torah is everything.” that is not the answer to a problem that will destroy chareidi society in the next twenty years! rabbi amsalem had to guts to point out that the way the system is going, it will implode. he is not against kollel, he is against EVERYONE going to kollel.
and i agree with you heshy, that if someone wants to sit and learn instead of work and it doesn’t hurt anyone, then who cares; however, it is hurting the whole chareidi population. i think the chareidim themselves are the victims here. they are brainwashed into thinking that “torah is everything” means that if you do anything else you are mevazeh torah. they get suckered into this and only realize when its too late to get out, or sometimes never.
Yep, if you do anything else…. LIKE don’t even even tie your shoes. You must wear loafers instead.
This is widely considered by outside analysts and many within the Israeli government to be the greatest existential threat to the State of Israel.
More than a generation has grown up under the system. They get no education in “secular” subjects which would help them survive on their own in the real world. No English. No mathematics. No science. No history. No civics. Their education is entirely in religious subjects and a very narrow range at that.
They do not participate in civil society and do not have job skills. They are dependent on stipends and charity. Their leaders use disbursement of charity for social control. They do not serve in the military despite the presence of Charedi units which permit service under conditions that conform to their level of religious observance. This makes much legitimate work unavailable to them and separates them from the education in technical and social skills which would help their self sufficiency.
Meanwhile the women in the community have to take low-paid menial jobs to make ends meet while raising the children. Their education does not qualify them for much, and the ever-increasing levels of separation reduce those opportunities considerably.
Even the Netenyahu government which always tries to be very politic on the subject admits it’s cut heavily into other important areas of the nation’s business such as military training and readiness and, yes, firefighting.
So we have population which has an unsustainably high birthrate – even Arab birthrates are falling – does not support itself, depends on transfers from an increasingly unfriendly non-Charedi majority and is hostile to the country and culture in which it resides. It is only the practice of bloc voting for religious parties, the Israeli system of proportional representation and (decreasing) foreign charity which has allowed the system to go on this long.
The lines are running together on this graph at a point well into disaster.
This is true.
The system will solve it’s own problem in due time.
It can’t go on like this forever.
And how much misery are you willing to permit in that time?
How much disaster when it breaks down?
Point is, the “stark realization” method is effective and efficient. You can avoid the whole struggle to convince people it’s what’s good, by just waiting for everyone to realize on their own.
Anyway, why toil on building a sand mountain which the wind will naturally build on it’s own? Every thinking individual realizes the situation by now, and those deeper into the “just learn” mindset will find out in due time.
Even if you get them to realize a bit earlier. You hardly saved them anything. The first place these people will go will be training, and they’ll be busy with it for quite a while regardless.
The “system” will not solve itself. Building and maintaining a first-world industrialized economy takes well-educated hard-working people. To pretend that the Haredi are suddenly going to churn out physicists, chemists, doctors, and engineers, while maintaining utilities systems, sophisticated fighter jets, and fast-paced emergency rooms, is a fantasy.
As the gap between the secular and Haredi closes, forcing the secular to assume an even greater burden of the tax bill, they will leave for greener pastures, taking their education and skill sets with them. I don’t think I have to spell out the rest of this story.
A very good point. Things don’t automagically just get better. This could severely damage The Israeli culture and society for generations. And it could have profoundly divisive effects among Jews for even longer.
Whatever ‘long term damage’ there is to be concerned about, already happened. Besides, I think the situation will pick itself up quicker than you’d expect.
Look at where Israel is in a matter of 60 years.
The Orthodox community gets things done pretty efficiently when they actually decide to accomplish.
My guess is 10 – 15 years from shock realization till the worst of it is over.
Not even close. And the fact that you think it has bespeaks a profound ignorance of history and economics. But those are secular subjects after all.
The Torah community never really went according to the rules of “History and economics”.
If they did, the last kollel would have closed in 1970.
My dad was career in the IDF (combat medic 7+ years) and what makes me madder than heck is the thought that its ok for other peoples family members to risk their lives defending Israel but the charedim just won’t pick up a gun and shoulder some responsibility.
I think the govt. needs to impose a ‘no army no welfare’ rule. Seriously.
I know all the arguments about why they sit and learn but they would do just as great a service to themselves and to Israeli society and for general ahavas yisroel if they just did their service and then got to learning.
The secular Israelis are fed up and it makes all religious people look bad.
The inability and unwillingness of the charedim to participate in Israeli society is one of the greatest challenges to the modern state of Israel.
So we should go serve in a secular army which soaks the Golan and Gaza with their soldiers’ blood and then gives it to the Palestinians to make the US happy?
The only way chareidim will EVER join the army is if the state is run by religious Zionists.
But that’s not happening any time soon either. The Israeli government doesn’t allow anyone religious to get any place high up in the military. All the decisions are being made by secular Jews, and they will do anything and everything to keep it that way.
All this aside, when the state originally began and needed the support and cooperation of the religious, they promised them that they would always remain exempt from military service as long as they are still learning.
Yes. You. Should.
You are happy to let better men and women than you die in your place. And you spit on them for doing it.
Every bite of food you eat is at the expense and out of the generosity of people you despise.
First take part. Put your own children’s lives on the line. Do things that aren’t precisely and exactly to your liking for the common good.
Until then shut your kugel hole.
One of these days we need to clear up what terms like “Better” and “Common good” are all about.
hey if theyre paid to do nothing, its good b/c then theyre doing nothing instead of messing up things by burning dumpster and btw spell check doenst cut it anymore
a thought–although i agree that this model of living is fiscally ridiculous, as a religious Jew i believe that torah learning is extremely important, and if i can’t do it myself, i am supporting it by paying taxes to the state which eventually turn into kollel stipends.
If everyone “Learning” would acually be doing so, you might have a point.
Unfortunately, there’s an entire society of people who by default – will be living on welfare. “Learning” is just the term used for “We can’t work because we refuse to join their army”.
Living here in Eugene Oregon I live alongside many hippies and militant anarchists. Even though they hate the State, they happily accept any and every dime the state will provide.
The intelligent anarchists who do this have told me they are well aware of the contradiction in what they’re doing and that they are “bleeding the beast.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that phrase.
If I had to bet I’d bet that the vehemently anti-Israel people accepting these handouts who are thoughtful about what they are doing would state that they too are “bleeding the beast.”
Bleeding the beast. Wow. That is a new level of denial.
Yeah, I’ve had people I manage come up and tell me they can’t work out the rest of their shift because “if I work two more hours this week it’ll mess up my unemployment” more than once. :^( Wearing an ANARCHY t-shirt, too.
Employees are allowed to set their own schedules, and many purposely work ~just~ enough hours to continue receiving full unemployment benefits, food stamps and the like. Food stamps are bartered and sold (well, the food stamps are actually in the form of a card that can be handed off to another).
Then there’s the milk scam …. Oh the stories I could tell. :^(
Nor are ANY of these people religious Jews, LOL.
The black market in the Haredi world is really huge. All of those gov’t surveys that say 60% of Haredi men don’t work are based on official payroll numbers. Many Haredi people work full time under the table for cash only. It is very easy to do in Israel – especially if you are “enrolled” in Kollel and receiving a stipend. The gov’t doesn’t go into the Kollel to check if you are learning, its basically on the honor system. The gov’t just assumes you don’t work if you fit the Haredi profile. Lots of Haredi people own apartments, cars, etc…. They are not poor and Bnei Brak is not a slum.
Also Israel is a welfare state. I work full time and get lots of gov’t services and stipends (630 NIS per months for having 3 kids / free health care / free schooling) because that is the way the system works. Everyone wants a piece of the pie (Russians, Ethiopians, Haredi, African Refugees). We pay an 18% sales tax on EVERYTHING and gasoline costs $8 a gallon. What do you expect?
PS I work full time in Israel and am not Haredi – Just telling it like it is.
Whoa, that is CRAZY! I wonder if that’s one reason they want to get a handle on who gets to be considered “really Jewish”? So that tons of random people do not just convert at the Reform temple down the street after a 1 week course in Judaism and then “make aliyah” LOL? ;^D
On the surface, this is something they use. However, most of the people they are turning away are American girls in their 20’s who have middle class parents to pay their way if they ever moved to Israel.
Reform conversions haven’t been taken serious in ages, Conservative almost as long. No, right now they are targeting Modern Orthodox converts.
Do you really know people who had their MO geirus ‘revoked’?
If so, what were the reasons?
I find it very hard to believe that any authentic Rabbi would retroactively invalidate a proper geirus for something as trivial as state finances.
The cases that have been in the news have been MO but NO I don’t PERSONALLY know any of them. I also don’t talk to Jews outside of the online world anymore. I don’t even do very much of the online world like I used to.
You don’t talk to Jews outside the online world?
Umm… Can I ask why not? Like, are you upset at the frum community or something?
im ain kemach ain torah- it is a very great thing to learn torah all day but sometimes the mundane fundamental issues of life are necessary to deal with! what about the ten kids who are left in a dilapidated old apt with no food in the fridge?! (if there is a fridge) people need to make some effort t o make a living, it is practically stealing to live off the government that way. people who work to earn a living but spend spare time immersed in torah are just as respected.
additionally, by going out into the ‘workforce’ it gives a person a chance to practice what they spend hrs upon hrs studying so they can gain additional insight.
i think it was the chazon ish who owned a taylor shop, and he would close the shop for the day as soon as he earned enough $ so he could go back to learning.
Ynet touched up on that issue a while ago. Its not only the Charedim who receive government stipends. I noticed how crowed the malls and cafes are during the day when everyone should be working.Olim do not count since they have entitlements. Israel was founded on socialistic principles where there is no opportunity to advance. Whats the point of working at a low wage when you can live off the welfare system? There is not much incentive to work hard because employees are not offered that many bonuses or benefits. While I think its wrong to feed off of taxpayer’s money, I think adapting a more capitalistic approach would help Israel’s economy in the long run and it would certainly encourage more productivity.
It is only the Charedim who take more than they contribute and who are pretty much completely dependent on it. The tu quoque fallacy is still a fallacy.
Watch what you say. We have capitalism here in the US and so many educated people are making the same or not much more than unskilled workers who don’t even speak English.
Michal,
You make a very good point. I think the situation would be different in Israel however, because people there are astonishingly more ambitious. The people there will go into whatever businesses will bring more money.
I have no doubt that all kinds of programs for higher education (compatible with the chareidi lifestyle) will spring up all over, as soon as it becomes acceptable to work. Once that happens, watch out! Seriously…
I don’t know how familiar you are with frum Israeli culture, but they are real do-ers. They’ll go out on a limb and work themselves to death for crazy hours if it means pulling in another few thousand shekels a month.
But the sad part is, we still have a while till those “Work barriers” finally come down…
Yankel,
It seems that an increasing number of so called chareidim are getting into the lucrative field of shnoring. Not only do they shnor from the state, but they travel around the world going door to door and from community to community.
We’ve had a huge influx of Israeli shnorers ever since the USA got stricter border security after 911. I once asked a seemingly young and healthy guy why he does this for a living. He was brutally honest, he said he earns a lot more even after paying his airfare and hotels than he would if he had to get a real job.
It is sad to see all this wasted talent and ambition being channeled into coming up with the best sob story in order to be able to support extravagances such as buying apartments for your newlywed kids.
I’ve never been to Israel, but I have a friend who was raised in Jerusalim with peyos and the whole nine yards. He is adamant that he was not technically chareidi since his family is Ashkenazi. So, my info comes from him.
I don’t know, people want to make money in the states if you go into whatever makes money, by the time you graduate college it no longer pays. I see something happening to Accounting cuz everyone is going into it. Either the pay will plummet or the CPA will get even harder.
@Drew: re Rambam, check out:
YELLOW PAGES POSTER: http://twitpic.com/3khjcx
You’re all missing a very important point here. Anyone who doesn’t go to the army or do sherut leumi, cannot legally work. Therefore, no chareidi can get a normal job, even when they are old enough that the army doesn’t want them anymore.
I’ve spoken to Yerushalmis about this issue. They say that the day the “work barriers” come down there will be a stampede of chareidim charging towards the work force, and systems of higher education compatible with chareidi life and values will spring up all over.
These people don’t enjoy the life their living. It sucks to live your life knowing that the only “Success” you can aspire to, is that you’ll meet a rich guy from America who will help support you and marry off your kids.
I estimate that roughly 10% of the current kollel population will remain there when that finally happens.
So you ask, “why don’t chareidim go to the army or do sherut leumi?”
Good question.
For quite a few reasons, some more valid than others. Community, religion, environment, idealistic, etc. The list goes on.
Fact is, that’s not changing – ever. So at this point, the decision to solve the dillema lies in the hands of the government. Will they allow chareidim into the work force without prior service for the state, and save millions of dollars each year in stipends, as well as develop their country’s economy, or will they keep the popular “Chareidim are ruining our country” comfort cushion alive.
Every human needs 3 things: Food, shelter, and someone to blame.
The chilonim need to see a real disaster approaching to shake their hold on #3. We still have some time though. This system (although bound to fail) can go on for quite a while still to come.
So, how does that explain the communities in the US that have large numbers of their members go to kollel full time and depend on tzedakah to survive? It may be true that many Israeli chareidim would work if given the chance, but will there really be fewer people in kollel there than there is here in the US?
i think the point is that in israel, they are stuck. even if they ever decide they want out, they are locked out of all jobs. they are brainwashed to stay in a system until middle age, at which point they are locked into the system and cannot get out even if they learn how to think for themselves.
in american, many kollel men realize after 5 (or even 10 years) that they cannot maintain this lifestyle forever, so, difficult as it is at that age, they start pursuing some career, and they do have the chance of being successful. (although i think this is also sad because it is so much more difficult to start your career in your 30s than in your early 20s. but at least there is that chance) in israel, they don’t have that option. their only option is to leave their community, and go off the derech, or buy into this unsustainable lifestyle.
First of all – it’s not NEARLY as bad in the US.
The one area which is still problematic is Lakewood, and it’s almost over. I mean people are starting to go to work right and left there.
Secondly, once the greater majority goes to work, there really is no more problem. We actually want 15-20% in kollel. The problem is when EVERYONE feels they are obligated to go, and actually do, and it’s the 15-20% which are working.
The point is not “People in kollel”. The issue is that there is a standard practice which cannot survive being “standard”. It must be the exception as opposed to the rule.
Then what would stop a Chiloni from wanting the same benifits? Not all Chilonim and Non-Haredi Dati folks are Zionists so much so that they are willing to go to the army. If there was an option to opt-out of the three years of required army service, many others would want to take advantage. The Israeli Government needs to keep the status quo in regards to the allowing legal work ONLY after Sherut L’umi in some form.
The Hardei leaders are planning for the future. According to the NYTimes article, soon the majority of school children will be Haredi. Eventually those children will become adults. They will be able to vote in the political leaders that will make policies to benefit their way of life. They assume that, “we keep on having large families, we will eventually be able to take over the state.”
Rabbi Amsellem is a true hero for saying what he believes and not cracking under the pressure of the leaders in his community.
So instate a special “Didn’t go to the army because of religious reasons” tax.
Amsellem might be a ballsy duche, but he’s still a duche.
But Yankel, if they are truly unemployed and their only income is already coming from the taxpayer’s pocket, how would they be able to pay a tax?
I mean to say, let them work even without going to the army, and in place of their service for the state, have them pay a
larger percentage on income tax for 10 years, or until 200,000 shekels or something.
Ah, got it, that’s a good idea.
So I take it that there’s no one here who is pro the system in Israel.
is there anyone anywhere who is pro that system?
As of now, with the demand for army service, this arrangement is the best option from a religious standpoint. We’re hoping the govt gets smart and realizes it’s time to give in or continue to let your country get ruined.
I know charedim in Israel who own businesses, yet never pay a cent in income taxes. It’s all off the books. So officially they’re living below the poverty level, but actually they’re not quite as poor as you might think from the statistics.
So they are liars, thieves, professional beggars and lower than whale dung.
But they wear the right costume so its all OK 🙂
When the Russian guy in the black costume (sent by the government) beats you bloody for daring to stand on the street and look chareidi, and when an anti-G-d “Jewish” state decides to dig up your grandfathers bones for a highway – cause its cheaper, and when they decide to do a forbidden autopsy to a Jewish corpse, then you’ll lose some of your attitude.
Some of these “Jewish” governors are quite German.
I count at least 90 members of the Kenesset who are secular. That is a 29 seat majority. Why doesn’t the Anti-God state just scale back the welfare for haredim, it’s not like the haredim vote Kadima or Likud anyway. (Shockingly, there are still some Labor holdouts in Bnei Brak–but mostly the older ones)
Oh and I will never forget that picture in the New York Times capturing the faces of protesting haredim when they found out the bones they were protesting from being taken out—were BYZANTINE. Priceless.
It’s because of two things
Israel’s system of proportional legislation guarantees gridlock and coalition governments. It makes the bloc-voting religious parties kingmakers. The price is, well, pretty much whatever they want.
The secular majority is under the mistaken impression that the parasites can be convinced to take part in the economy and civic society. They are wrong. These are theocrats whose agenda is to make everyone into copies of themselves, by force if necessary.
I agree 100%. Israel needs to rid of the PR electoral system, and replace it with a district based AV or FPTP system. I believe the Kadima Party included this in their party manifesto.
I know lots of people like that right here, and not a single one of them is Jewish, though.
1. The community(s) that are anti-Israel (or anti-zionists) do NOT take any funds from any Israeli govt agency nor do they participate in any of the govt sponsored welfare programs.
2. Those that are taking stipends and services of the government are Israelis that vote (sometimes multiple times) in every single election thereby increasing the ‘Torah’ party representation in the Knesset as well as municipal offices.
3. I do believe in this singular instance, the NY Times; as much as they’re totally self-Jew-haters etc; got it right! The article was NOT that off the mark. The 2nd half of the story dealing with the educational component and work training programs, was pretty good.
4. As a former Kollel dude (only 7 months) I totally agree that the situation is OUT OF CONTROL. The Gemara in Megillah says that there should be 10 Batlanim (persons that don’t work but rather study Torah) that the community supports in any town. This has been turned on its head. It’s 10 people that work and everyone is playing the Kollel game.
5. Unless someone is seriously considering a life of Torah (Teacher, Bais Din, Rabbi etc) there should be absolutely NO safety net extended for those just warming a bench. I say go to work and join a Daf yomi shiur or similar before or after work. The financial problems of the community are just getting worse and worse each passing year. With more and more children being born the crisis is mind boggling and will get only worse. My father (a musmach of Reb Moshe) worked from the day he got married (with Reb Moishe’s full blessing) and learned more Torah each day before, after, and during work than most Kollel guys do full time. He’s retired now and studying in Kollel full time (no stipend) and he keeps telling us that the system is messed up. ‘Learning in Kollel’ is secret code for ‘I really don’t give a sh*&’)
6. What really roasts my kugel is that the same Kollel guys living on government stipends have the sheer audacity and Chutzpah to disparage other people (varying makes and models) that stand in front of them in-line living on those same stipends.
7. My children (besides one that wants to be a Dayan) will NOT be doing the mandatory Kollel deal. As parents, we will support their career options and assist them in attaining them.
8. Given the opportunity I’d replace the bulk of Kollels with job training schools.
Disclaimer: I am a Shteimel wearing, Boro Park living litvishe chusid that sits on Mizrach vant in my Shul and while I’m proud to support Torah and Chesed institutions, I have made the educated decision to never support a Kollel other than Kollels that are specific for Choshon Mishpat study or the like which is almost always comprised of super serious guys committed to a life of Rabbonus etc.
An honorable man who values religion and the real world.
My hat’s off to you, sir.
Allegations that people who are learning Torah are “doing nothing” are not necessarily fair. I think someone who is seriously learning Torah would argue that he is doing something of great spiritual value for the Jewish people, even if it is something intangible.
Once before on this topic I said I was reminded of what Thomas Merton felt upon first visiting a Trappist monastery, although of course that was a Catholic situation. I have found the passage I was thinking of to actually quote it this time.
Now, these contemplative and fully cloistered monks might be subject to the same accusations as observant Jewish men studying the Torah. They are involved with religious practices and study, day and night. They hold no secular jobs and are largely supported through the almsgiving of others. But Merton wrote:
“The eloquence of this liturgy [customary worship] was even more tremendous: and what it said was one simple, cogent, tremendous truth: this church, the Court of the Queen of Heaven, is the real capital of the country in which we are living. This is the center of all the vitality that is in America. This is the cause and reason why the nation is holding together. These men, hiding in the anonymity of their choir and their white cowls [religious garb], are doing for their land what no army, no congress, no president could ever do as such: they are winning it for the grace and the protection and the friendship of God.”
Rearranging a few words, and of course substituting Israel for America, I can well imagine a sincerely observant Jew learning Torah on a stipend feeling just the same. Now, whether the taxpayer should be compelled to pay alms may be a different point. But to say that someone who is sitting and learning Torah is “doing nothing” isn’t right.
This is, indeed, what their argument would be along the lines of. God didn’t allow us to conquer the land due to the Army, but due to the learning of the pious. The army they fight for is the Army of God.
This, you will find, is why the hatred between Chareidim and Zionists is so deep-seated in Israel. It’s not like in America, where I can be a heathen living amongst Chareidim, and we may make each other uncomfortable; but in Israel, it gets quite heated. A Rabbi of mine in Israel, who’s actually a member of the Soloveichik family, was moving to Ramat Beit Shemesh. He found himself a nice apartment. He was warned by the broker that this apartment was in a Chiloni (non-religious) neighborhood, and they don’t take kindly to Rabbis. He said “I don’t care, I grew up in the South Side of Chicago, and all my neighbors there were black, and we got along just fine!” But the broker said “you don’t understand…it’s a lot more complicated than that.”
My father still remembers when he first visited Tel Aviv. Before that, the only Israel he knew was Jerusalem. He spent half a year in a Chareidi place in Talpiot, the kind where they expected you to wake up in time for Vatikin, learn until midnight, and only stop to eat and to pray. So when he first saw a place where people were violating the Sabbath, eating shellfish, listening to punk rock, and going to topless beaches, he could’t believe he was in the same country. Many of them, he noticed, hoped that the Palestinians took over and threw all the Chareidim into the Sea. The hatred is pretty deep-seated.
Monks except for certain mendicant orders are not and never have been supported by almsgiving. They are independent self-supporting brotherhoods.
The mendicant orders were those (like the order of St. Francis) that had taken orders of extreme poverty such that all they literally owned was a robe, a staff, and a pair of sandals. Since they did not own the means to make a living, they begged for their food. None of these monks had wives, children, a home, a car, or for that matter a change of underwear. This was an important part of their spirituality.
For example, if you go to the website of the monastary that Merton joined (they all have websites of course) it says the following:
>>Gethsemani Farms offers handmade Trappist cheese, fruitcake and bourbon fudge on-site and by mail order.
This is of course, made by the brothers themselves (presumably when not under the influence of the bourbon fudge).
The head of religious education at my church is a monk. His order all have degrees in education and make their livings by being paid by individual parishes to run their education programs for them. His name is Brother Robert, he is about 65 years old, the size of Friar Tuck, and is kind of a like a very large and friendly St. Bernard dog. 🙂
Catholic Mom, thank you, I was just going to ask after your last post, then how do these cloistered monks support themselves?! :^D
Perhaps delicious fudge and cheese will provide the answer for these kollels, LOL. :^D Man, that fudge looks DELICIOUS!
p.s. I hope you saw in the FS forum that I wished you a merry Christmas! :^)
I didn’t but thank you very much! It was indeed a beautiful Christmas for us with a lovely midnight mass with the kids singing in the choir, grandma (my mom) over the next day for present opening and a wonderful dinner (cooked by husband). Unfortunately there was a massive blizzard the next day and I slid on the ice and dented somebody’s car so now my insurance will probably go up, but I am trying to maintain a serene Christmas spirit about it which means I am trying not to curse right in front of the kids. 🙂
And of course, for those into Belgian beers like yours truly, we all know about the Trappist ales. I say you can’t go wrong with a Trappist, esp. Chimay Grande Reserve. If I ever go to Belgium, I gotta visit these abbeys to see for meself. Legend has it that the best beer in the world is one of those no-name brands they don’t sell in a store, but if you go into the Abbey itself, they will sell it to you in a plain black bottle. I keep forgetting the name of the Abbey, but this is well known amongst Belgian beer connoseurs.
Ghottistyx,
That’s funny, I find the trappist ales the least appealing of the Belgian beers. I’ve tries most of them, maredsous, morte subit, chimay, etc. I prefer Stella and Chouffe more than any others.
I always found it strange that monks openly brewed beer or made liquor like benedictine. I was under the impression that they were forbidden to drink unless it was was wine for ceremonial purposes.
Why would monks be forbidden to drink? Jesus drank wine as is documented in many places in the NT. His first miracle was to turn water into wine.
And on a slightly less reverent level, Benjamin Franklin once said “beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Catholic mom,
I did say “unless it was was wine for ceremonial purposes”. I assumed it might be a sin for monks/priests to use wine outside their religious duties. Is a priest allowed to get drunk?
No one is supposed to get drunk. St. Paul lists “drunkards” as among those who “will assuredly not inherit the kingdom of heaven.”
There was an argument in the NT between the ascetic followers of John the Baptist who “neither eat nor drink” and those of Jesus “who came eating and drinking.” St. Paul tells us that among the “gifts of the Spirit” that mark a Christian is “self-control.” There have been Christians since the Reformation that interpret this to mean abstinance from alcohol (to the point of using grape juice for communion.) Catholics are not among these. 🙂
Catholic mom,
That’s funny, I occasionally go to a place named “Pub St Paul”, they’ve got a devil in their logo and have live rock bands play there once in a while.
I don’t have a clue as to what the differences between catholics and christians are, then you get the Romans Greek and Russian orthodoxes makes it even more confusing, not to mention pentacostals, baptists and protestants. Growing up in a frum Jewish lifestyle, a church is a church and a cross is a cross.
From what sect are the “celibate” priests that keep getting busted for molesting kids?
Those would be the Catholics unfortunately.
Don’t feel bad — 98% of Christians can’t coherently explain the differences between the various groups or what is the basis for the differences. I just happen to be in the educated 2%. 🙂 But in brief there are two types of Christians:
1. Those who believe that there is One True Church and they’re it (the Roman Catholics and all the Orthodox Churches). Everybody outside the One True Church has less than the fullness of Truth but may still be good Christians as far as their feeble and wrong understanding lets them be. God gives continuous revelation to the Church so that doctrines may be taught which are not explicitly found in scripture (kind of like the “Oral Law.” )
2. Those who believe that there is an “invisible” Church (i.e., not a single unified organization) that consists of all the various Protestant sects that they more or less agree with. If it isn’t explicitly spelled out in scripture, they don’t believe it. Hence they believe that 90% of the practices and beliefs of the Roman and Orthodox Churches are totally wrong and thus that they (we) are all going to hell. Of course, given that they have no single unified teaching authority (unlike #1) they schism with each other approximately every six months.
And then of course there are the “mainstream” Protestants that originally fell into category #2 but now just love everybody and feel that religious doctrine is totally unimportant and the main thing is to sing kumbaya and give group hugs.
Monasteries and convents have either been supported by rich patrons or their own work. And they can only recruit. They don’t reproduce.
The Talitban breeds out of control and does not support itself.
My Gram was Catholic. How many times did I hear that G-d helps those who help themselves.
That quote isn’t in the Bible. It isn’t from the Saints.
It’s from Benjamin Franklin, revolutionary, libertine, atheist and member of the Hellfire Club.
What you don’t understand is that they are NOT learning full time. As others have pointed out. They say they learn but they don’t do squat. I asked a kollel guy one time for a run down of their schedule. I found out that in his kollel they spend much of the day playing basketball.
In the states, the women work as speech therapists, Special Ed SIAT workers, OTs, Social workers, Sheitel washers, bookkeepers or whatever else and they love telling people that their husbands learn. It’s a big ego and status thing to have a learner, reserved for FFBs of course. That’s alright, the FFB women can have the lazy bums.
BASKETBALL?! :^O That’s insane. I am surprised it is even allowed.
Come and think of it, I’ve seen it. Running joke is that there’s a positive correlation between how schtark one learns and how good their jump-shot is.
You haven’t been reading this blog long enough. Usually Foosball is the time pisser of choice for kollel leaches- I mean yungermen….
I think Hesh has been in Yeshivas and seen this $hit.
You talked to a kollel guy? He heard your voice?
You realize, of course, that he was overcome with lust at the sound of your voice. He stopped thinking about Gemara for days afterwards. He might even have thought about you and touched himself which is worse than murder. You debased his soul and will certainly go to hell for it, you temptress
Hahah, I used to work for him and his wife. He was usually home during the day…. he was like a modern yeshivish type, though. I think he wanted to step even further left but his wife wouldn’t have allowed it.
Hey, c’mon don’t say “They” with that paintbrush.
I personally know many many serious Jews, people who’s genuine dedication to G-d would be respected in all circles, who live off government stipends (as well as kollel donations from US).
Whatever you could draw up as the ideal “Kollel guy’s schedule” – these people are already doing, and more.
At the same time, I still remember Ezra who worked behind the counter, usually in jeans and a T-shirt. One day we see him in a white shirt, with hat and jacket on, so we asked if he was going to a bris or something, and he winked and said “Lo, hayom yesh bikara”
(“Nope. Today the govt is coming into yeshiva to count how many students are there, and if the ones listed are really attending.”)
But the majority of those listed in “yeshiva” or “learning” actually are – at least to some extent. Many of whom are putting in a full day of strenuous dedicated learning. If you keep up with all the seforim being put out these days, you’ll know what I mean.
Good. Let the Chareidim who learn full time live like monks…no marriage or children for as long as they are learning. If they can’t even be bothered with shoelaces, they certainly shouldn’t have time for …siring children (and all that entails).
AztecQueen, I’ve heard about the shoelace thing before, that’s why it’s incredible if they are allowed to play basketball. Isn’t that a bigger bitul torah?
Mahla, you read it here. We all know it. It’s one of Heshy’s favorites.
Aztec,
Leave it to you to say something like, “siring children (and all that entails).” How come you got a cool purple guy with glasses? before I put my eye on here I had the ugliest pic, one of the unhappy faces.
They cheat on their wives with gentile women and prostitues, by the way. I have a black friend who used to live in Crown Heights and they used to try to pick her up ALLLLLLLLLLLL the time.
You’ve told me before about the cheating and prostitution. The point is, if they are so busy learning that even shoelaces are “bittul Torah”, then they should be like monks in EVERY facet of life–and that means NO NOOKIE at all!!
The gemara says that one who says “mai ahani lun rabanan” translated: what do the rabanan do for us, or in what way are they bettering the world? is an apikorus. the blatant apikorsus and sinas talmidei chachomim expressed by some people here is shocking. Heshy maybe its time to pick up an “old text” and begin studying yourself, hashem yeracheim!
Rabbis, yes. But “batlanim”, as the Gemara in Megillah defines as the people who sit and learn torah and do nothing else. What of them? He’s not questioning those who are learning to actually make something of it, but those who simply want to be on a Kollell salary, usurping welfare money, etc., and do nothing else with it. Staying in the proverbial Ivory Tower…what good is all that learning if it’s not being used to actually better the world? Trapped between the walls of a Beit Midrash, it’s quite a waste.
we dont study torah just to become a rabbi, Its not like studying to be a doctor where the whole point is to “become” a doctor. Torah study is a means in and of itself, the greatest thing a person can do to “better” the world is to study torah without any objectives. “AL TIKRI BONAYICH ELA BONOYICH” studying torah builds the world, all bracha comes to the world through the limud hatora of these people you so disgust, they are giving the world so much more than they are takeing, “Kol haolom nizon bishvil chanina bni” [including protecting the state of israel from her enemies “much much” more than what the army itself is doing], if you r smart you will support them and encourage them to keep learning. THEsE are basic tenements of our belief as jews
And what exactly does your learning Torah gratis “build”? What possible good does it contribute to the world? Are you speaking of some great lofty metaphysical beyond that heathens like me are never going to benefit from anyway? If your manner of answering me is any indication of what you think of those who disagree with you, then I find it hard to believe that you intentions are really for world peace at all. I can’t help but detect a bit of venom there. The only thing you demand peace for is for your ilk.
Now let’s try this again. Aside from inheriting some great promised Garden of Shambahla or some other Sugar Candy Mountain, what good does learning in Kollell as a profession really do to the world at large?
“Venom”? if u want to see venom look at the 80 replies above of the way people talk with disgust about lomdei torah. building the world is meant literaly, parnasa health protection etc. see gemara berachos 17b kol haolam “nizon” bshvil chanina bni talking about Mezonos [parnasa]
You can believe what you wish. But it is crossing a line to expect secular and less religious Israelis to be discriminated against and take it quietly. And yes, it is discrimination, albeit a political necessity in Israel’s corrupt PR electoral system. University students in Israel don’t get the same army waivers, (if any at all!) like people who are “Sitting and learning.”
> The gemara says that one who says “mai ahani lun rabanan” translated: what do the rabanan do for us, or in what way are they bettering the world? is an apikorus.
The gemara was written by rabanim. If you wanted to keep the hamon am from questioning your authority and privileged place in society, what would you do? Brand such a line of questioning as apikorsis.
> all bracha comes to the world through the limud hatora of these people
Says you. Yes, I know, and a whole bunch of rabbonim who – guess what – had a vested interest in making sure that learning was seen as the source of all good in the world.
> [including protecting the state of israel from her enemies “much much” more than what the army itself is doing],
Really? So why is it that 2000 years of devening didn’t return us to Eretz Yisroel, but a century of political maneuvering by secular Zionists did?
Put down the Gemara for just one second, look at the world around you, and tell me what good it’s contributing. If you plan on spending the rest of your life with your nose buried in the Gemara, then we have nothing to discuss. But assuming that you really care about the world at large; what good do you hope to have it all accomplish? Good, I mean, not just for those deeply engrossed in their studies as you are. What about those whose tafkid in life is not academia?
The gemara also says a man should not marry until he’s learned a trade, built a house and planted a vine. It also says that a man who does not teach his son a trade teaches him to steal.
Look my point here is not to explain why some gedolei yisroel feel that it is necessary in todays generation to learn in kolel for at least the first years of ones marriage, i am merely taking people to task for mocking torah [some “old text” to quote heshy] and lomdei torah saying that they dont better the word. Those words unless said in ignorance are pure apikorsus, there are hundreds of mamarei chazal that studying torah brings physical good to the world. It seems many were asleep during hashkofo shiur
I am not teasing you but asking in all seriousness. Do they have basketball where you are learning?
I do not know people who play basketball besides for bain hazmanim [between semesters] or fri afternoons i personaly can count on one hand the times i played any ball [besides a 2 on1 baseball game against my 2 boys]in the past 10 yrs it may actually do me some good to be a little more active
Kolel Man, I believe you. I don’t think you’d lie to us here. However, from what others are saying, it does seem as though there are ~some~ who do abuse the system.
Mahla, they lie. He isn’t going to admit on here that he plays foosball or basketball.
Even if the Gemara says to learn, then why can’t one learn outside of work. Also, if studying the gemara in and of itself is supposed to make the world a better place, shouldn’t the women be studying, too? I mean, after all, they claim that we’re actually closer to G-d than men, so I would think we should matter other than to be told that everything is not our concern.
Kollel man, Fri afternoons? if they have that kind of time, they should be helping their wives prepare for Shabbos. That’s selfish and yes, I was told that they play basketball. Why would a kollel guy tell me that if they didn’t?
This whole basketball thing is childish, we can discuss issues here not what some yutz may or may have not told you, the fact that u believe such ridiculous stories that no kolelguys are serious about learning and just sit around all day and play ball, doesnt say much for u, yes there may be some who abuse the system and they should go work, but on a general level the kolel guys i know r quite commited and serious. as far as how overworked the woman are, that is true and they will be duly rewarded for their efforts, most of them believe this and r happy to be a partner in their husbands torah learning, if it becomes to much for them they can a do discuss it with their husbands, i know plenty of people that after an honest assesment and talk with their rebbe went to work of some sort, so were not all that bad and shalom bayis is quite good as good as in your communities
If a newlywed man wants the luxury of being able to stay in kollel after he’s married, let him:
1) Save up enough before marriage to supplement his wife’s income while he’s off learning.
2) Find a rich daddy in law or sponsor to support him while he’s in kollel.
3) Find part time / after hours work to supplement his income.
The idea of the state paying for kollel is ridiculous. It’s not the state’s responsibility, nor should it be the taxpayer’s burden.
Hillel worked as a woodcutter and lived on the equivalent of 1 loaf of bread every day, just so he could attend yeshiva.
R. Akiva and his wife slept on hay and lived like paupers after being disowned by her father (one of the richest dudes in town) for wanting to learn Torah.
Take an example from our sages instead of expecting those who you disagree with to be forced to foot your bill.
Either:
a: Moshiach is about to be publicly announced
b: The world has already ended
c: THIS is the best idea ever,
because both Phil and I agree on it!