Background of the Oral History of Orthodox Conversion / Gender Identity ProjectSince I started the Orthodox conversion process over a year ago I was stunned and pleased at the affect it has had on my own gender identity. Of course most people who have known me for a significant amount of time have said something along the lines of, “but you’re a feminist, how can you be an Orthodox Jew?” These two reactions, from within myself, and those outsiders looking in, have led to be start a new project collecting oral histories (similar to a StoryCorps (storycorps.org/) style and format) from other Orthodox Converts or Baal Teshuvas who have finished their conversion, or been living an observant life for a significant amount of time.
What will participating entail?
I’m interested in recording about an hours’ worth of interviews from each participant, with the interviewee explaining how they related to their gender during their childhood, what messages they grew up with about their gender from family, society or other religions; and finally how their ideas of gender did or didn’t change during their conversion process, the good, bad and the in between. In case I ever choose to use the material for a thesis I will collect a small amount of statistical data as well and ask that you sign a release, but for now am just hoping to compile an edited audio piece.
I’m interested in recording about an hours’ worth of interviews from each participant, with the interviewee explaining how they related to their gender during their childhood, what messages they grew up with about their gender from family, society or other religions; and finally how their ideas of gender did or didn’t change during their conversion process, the good, bad and the in between. In case I ever choose to use the material for a thesis I will collect a small amount of statistical data as well and ask that you sign a release, but for now am just hoping to compile an edited audio piece.
Why me?
This is open to both men and women. I will collect a small amount of statistical data along with the oral history, and participants are welcome to remain anonymous, but their voice will be recorded. I’m planning on interviewing people in the Manhattan area July 22nd – 31st. If you are interested in being interviewed you are welcome to contact me directly at:
rebecca.greenberg@gmail.com
Heshy’s Notes: I don’t understand gender identity much, I have always known I was a dude – I identify with urinals, vaginas and steamrollers (I also love wrecking balls), I also happen to know I’m a man by the fact that I like to look into holes and big pits.
It would have been helpful if you had something at the top of the post that says it’s a request from Rebecca Greenberg. I read the beginning, thought, “He’s converting to Orthodoxy? I thought he was FFB” checked your name at the top, and thought, “Yeah, it’s written by Heshy” and continued to be confused until I got to the email address.
It seems to me her research will be incomplete unless she also speaks with people who went OTD or who stopped or decided not to start the Orthodox conversion process due to gender issues.
Heshy: You identify with vaginas?
BTs’ and converts’ acceptance and embracing of Jewish gender roles has aways fascinated me. It probably has to do with the fact that a “new” lifestyle doesn’t carry all the negative baggage that it might years down the road.
I’m a lesbian who’s converting (Modern) Orthodox. I can reconcile being a gay Orthodox Jew. But the conversion process makes me hate being a woman and being Jewish doesn’t seem worthwhile unless I am a man. I can’t hear what’s going on during services, I am in my early 20s and want to go to medical school and all people want to do is ask me what nice Jewish guy I’m converting for and when I’m getting married. I’m afraid to even ask questions on positive time-bound mitzvot or else I’ll be seen as having a “feminist agenda”. I don’t want to convert Reform or Conservative because then I get the stink eye if I’m “out-Jewing” them in terms of observance. And aliyah issues freak me out.
I’m femme . I definitely read as straight. I don’t even want to wear a kippah. But apparently tefillin and gemara and – chas v’shalom! – pants are making me into some freaky butch dyke. It helps that I am thin, pretty, and smart enough to keep a low profile, but I hate it. I always thought I was pretty feminine until everyone started freaking out over tzniut.
Not so helpful ’cause I’m not even Jewish yet, just venting…
PS – I’d love to have Sara Hurwitz on my beit din. A girl can dream!
Carlsagan –
I don’t know why in the world you think you’d get the “stink eye” in a Reform congregation for “out Jewing” people. I wear a tallit, have worn teffilin, have told someone I’d pay them for something later in the week because I didn’t want to handle money on shabbat, etc., and not once has anyone ever done anything to make me feel bad for being observant in ways they are not. Except one person once did get a little freaky about me saying I don’t eat dairy with meat.
If you had a bad experience somewhere, maybe you should just try a different reform or conservative shul. There is no reason to subject yourself to a process and/or way of life that makes you hate being a woman.
I challenge you to find a single Reform or Conservative shul in the world that can sustain a minyan where tallit and tefillin-wearing female Jews under 40 would be a significant part of the members. The minyans at HUC, JTS, and AJU being excluded for obvious reasons.
Seriously? I challenge you to find a single Orthodox shul in the world whre tallit and teffilin-wearing female Jews under 40 would be a significant part of the members.
The point is that in Reform shuls women don’t get grief for doing these things, while in Orthodox shuls we do.
Carlsagan,
Some of the issues you bring up are more social conventions than strict halachah, but many people become disillusioned down the line if they find that the communities in which they live look down on their “eccentricities.” We all have our individualized ways of approaching God, but I would honestly ask myself whether or not I am capable of abiding by most of the social conventions of orthodox Judaism before “buying in.” True, the modern orthodox are more liberal (or “lax” depending on the person in question) regarding certain issues, but certain things remain pretty standard: separate davening, you will almost never see women putting on tefillin or wearing tzitzis (so even if you can technically do this, doing so in public would likely create social problems), and a host of other things. Ignoring some social conventions, especially if you are halachically on firm ground, is acceptable, but the more “out there” you become, the more you may risk feel estranged from, and resentful of, the surrounding community in which you live.
If you plan on living a lesbian lifestyle (you didn’t say you would), I would advise you to keep the noahide commandments, rather than convert to Judaism. Though both legal systems frown upon lesbian behavior (as a matter of hashkafah at the very least for noahides), there are probably even fewer sources explicitly forbidding lesbian behavior amongst gentiles than rabbinic sources forbidding it amongst Jews. Not that it’s necessarily permitted either way, but there are far fewer rabbinic responsa in general pertaining to the noahide laws, and as such the legal system is more skeletal in nature. I’m no halachic authority, but perhaps there would be greater basis for leniency with a non-Jewish lesbian, compared to a Jew in this regard.
Additionally you probably observe most, if not all, of the noahide commandments already. If on the other hand you convert, and lose your enthusiasm down the line, you run the risk of becoming just another disillusioned, ex-orthodox Jew. Any subsequent lapse in your observance as a result (and there are many more commandments–amongst Jews–to become lax in) will result in you becoming a sinner.
Disillusionment amongst Jews is common–we (unfortunately) love to bad mouth each other, engage in lots of in-fighting, and disgraceful behavior can be seen by select individuals from across the spectrum–from the most right wing chareidi, to the OTDers. And with the internet, it’s all available for all of us to read, blog about, and otherwise get up in arms about the new Hillul Hashem of the week. These people sap much of the enthusiasm out of Jewish living for those who pay excessive attention to their behavior. As a gentile, you would be shielded from that to some degree.
Additionally, if you became an atheist down the line, or stopped believing in Judaism, but remain a gentile, it is highly unlikely that you will start violating the noahide laws left and right the next day. It would be much harder for a Jewish atheist, by contrast, to maintain their former level of observance.
There are many ways to spruce up one’s spiritual life within the context of remaining a noahide. There are many Jewish books devoted to spirituality, Jewish thought, that are relevant to interested gentiles, as they touch upon issues that pertain to loving God/serving God, and broad issues of belief that are relevant to all people. For what it’s worth, I would plug hisbodedus, advocated by the Breslovers, as this can be a potent, and accessible, spiritual practice for all people.
Hey, thanks so much for this thoughtful response. I appreciate that you took the time to re-write it for me. Becoming a noahide isn’t something that’s crossed my mind at all – I wonder how meaningfully I would participate in a Jewish community this way, and if it would be meaningful to me, personally. I do know that conversion means I’ll be on the fringe wherever I end up (and if I don’t convert Orthodox I just won’t convert), but I certainly don’t want to alienate myself (or others) by being too openly “out there”. I wouldn’t be converting if I didn’t want to become observant, but I have a long way to before everything’s figured out.
Anyway, thank you again for your thoughts – it definitely gives me something to think about. Shabbat shalom 🙂
Yes, exactly. My Reform friend says “What’s tefillin?” and it’s just totally not the norm for anyone to wake up with modeh ani and fall asleep with shema. I’m definitely curious about Orthodox women’s tefillah groups, though.
I don’t really jive with Reform Judaism (too “Unitarian”), but while plenty of Reform and secular Jews have been totally enthusiastic about me being an Orthodox conversion candidate (my local Reform rabbi is just tickled pink by it), I’ve been met with blatant skepticism and hostility a few too many times to actively seek out a Reform congregation. I think I would also feel more comfortable in a community where some level of observance is the norm. Reform Jews have tended to be suspicious or annoyed by halakhic concerns and I’m not into getting grilled on whether or not I think patrilineals are real Jews, for instance. (Some of my family are Jewish, and I don’t want that to earn me legitimacy somehow, either, when I was raised Catholic)
The Orthodox conversion process is honestly pretty discouraging, but I wouldn’t be doing it if I didn’t also find it enthralling. I wish I lived in a larger community. Conservative Jews (where I live, at least), care about halakha in theory but not so much in practice, unless it’s one of the few synagogues that pretty much seem Orthodox minus a mechitza. I didn’t grow up culturally Jewish like they did, so it’s important for me to start out halakhically Jewish.
I’m sure I’ll find a good fit eventually. For now it’s just a ton of hoops to jump through and evading the suspicion of the Orthodox for being too radical and Reform/Conservative for being too, uh, weird.
I wrote a more extended post, but the software at this site failed to post (wont repeat it).
I’d consider being a noahide, but borrowing some additional spiritual observances from Jewish law (ask a rabbi for parameters, though few are knowledgeable in these areas).
Torah study would be permitted, but largely limited to halachos that are pertinent to you, and would generally focus on learning those things designed to advance your observance of anything applicable to the 7 laws. I would include all manner of hashkafic writing, including relevant Talmudic aggadah.
Not a posek, but those are my two cents.
It sounds like you are converting Orthodox for the legitimacy it will confer upon you, but you’re not sure whether you intend to lead an Orthodox life. I don’t want to come across as judgmental, but I feel obligated to tell you that if you don’t plan to live an Orthodox life, including full observance of all mitzvos to Orthodox standards, then you should not be converting under the auspices of an Orthodox bais din. I say this as an Orthodox convert – every time someone converts Orthodox and goes on to be not Orthodox, it delegitimizes conversion for the rest of us. What I mean by that is that if a few individuals who converted with my bais din were not sincere in their conversion, and this was discovered later, then this casts suspicion on the rest of the converts from that bais din. Was the bais din not careful enough? Did they ask the right questions? Maybe the rest of their converts aren’t sincere either. So please, be 100% sure that you are ready to take on full shmiras mitzvos before going through with an Orthodox gerus.
I’m converting Orthodox because I want to be Jewish, period. Same as you. If you’re questioning my sincerity because I’ll be part of the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (etc etc etc), well, I’m just as intimidated by power-tripping rabbis (and drama) as you are and paranoid about having to undergo a geirut l’chumra years from now, but it won’t be because I’m violating halakha.
She’s already spoken for herself, but from her previous posts my perception wasn’t that she plans to go OTD after getting Orthodox paperwork, but that she wants to keep all the mitsvot possible (no one can keep all 613, because all 613 aren’t operable for any individual), but is concerned about specific constraints that Orthodoxy puts on women’s ability to fulfill certain “time-bound” commandments, among other things.
My name is the question.
I would hope that people could find more productive and useful things to do than obsessing over their own navels.
Good for you! I think this sounds very interesting. I would volunteer, but I’m no longer in NYC. Regardless, good luck!!
Woops! And I’m not a BT or convert. Meh. Whatever. I would still do it to help out. Good luck!