I’ve been hanging with quite a few folks in the process of converting to Judaism lately and all of them have told me their dismay when having learned that they would have to pick up their lives and move to LA or NY in order to complete the conversion process. Is this just part of the conversion process, that part where the agent rabbi says that if you really want to be a part of this you have to do as I say? Or is it part of a larger conspiracy to scare away converts who don’t feel like plucking their families out of their established communities to start anew in a far away land?
Either way, it bothers me, it bothers me that these fine folks who have sacrificed so much to join our religion and have come so far, only to be told that they must take their children out of school, quit their jobs and sell their homes just because the Beis Din feels that their communities aren’t good enough, that smells fishy to me. I can understand this if these folks who were converting lived in places without Jewish communities, but every single one I have spoken to lives in a community with shuls, kosher food, eruvim and mikvahs, so what gives?
If the beis din told the families that they would be finding them new jobs, a place to live and a proper school with friends for their children it would be one thing, but it seems that the beis din is merely saying that if you don’t move – you can’t complete your conversion. It’s like being told there’s no cholent left at Kiddush, such heartbreak and such pains and it seems you cannot do anything about it. Sure, many choose the option to leave and start anew in a large city, but what if you own a house, have children and careers, etc.
I was told of a woman in the Bay Area who wished to convert, she was “frum” for many years and had always walked to shul every shabbos, but the beis din didn’t like the fact that she owned a house 5 miles from the shul, they told her that she couldn’t complete her conversion unless she moved to within 3 miles of the shul, so she has never been able to convert, so you may say that she didn’t want it bad enough – she should have sold her house, but we have no idea why she didn’t sell the house – we only know that this beis din ruined this woman’s life for what they deemed a too far walk.
Apparently there are Batei Din sometimes keeps female converts on a leash until they marry, not giving them the documentation until they have vetted the Husband to be..
A thorough reformation of the (orthodox) conversion process is well past due. There are enough stories of everything from thoughtless false-steps all the way to abusive behaviors that would justify this. Your post is too serious for a satire blog. But some of the stories I know about would make for good parodies of what a Beis Din should do.
The problem is that there is no forum or venue from which anyone can make any credible changes. At best you simply start a knife fight between OU, RCA, Rabbanut, various Edah Charadi groups, Sefardic leadership etc. Hopefully Moshiach will come and we’ll learn that we all need conversion, since the only real Jews are members of the Yuchi tribe in Oklahoma (hey, they celebrate sukkot…).
Full disclosure: this was a requirement given to me by a RCA-approved beit din, but I was moving anyway.
The issue really isn’t moving. Beitei din have required moving within a reasonable distance to an orthodox community since the dawn of time. The MAJOR shift is that they’re now requiring converts to swear, during the same swearing at the mikvah that you accept the yoke of the mitzvot and will raise any children as Jews and cast your lot with the Jewish people, that you will provide any children with 12 years of orthodox day school education. That limits the community choices a lot, but more importantly, it just shouldn’t be something required like that. It’s a goal, but there’s the mitzvah to raise a child according to his way, and what if that children is not made for a yeshiva education? Or what if they want to go to an arts school or a science magnet school? Or what if that child is special needs, and the yeshiva schools are (to my understanding) just not built for special ed. My concern is that, by requiring this as a condition of conversion, I will have to choose between the best interests of my hypothetical child and allowing someone to try to revoke my Jewish status (and since I’m female, the status of those hypothetical children). That’s not a choice required of born Jews, it’s not a requirement of Jewish mitzvot to have this kind of luxury, and it’s yet another condition on conversion. I also know that it’s cutting off the majority of American Jewish communities from the benefits of having converts in the community.
This post is painfully true. It seems that rabbis expect more of converts than they do Jews who were born Jewish. And then it seems like no matter who does your conversion there are a group of rabbis to say that its not valid and you’re not Jewish. As a homosexual I gave up on an Orthodox conversion long ago so I guess I’m pretty prepared for a lifetime of criticism
A few gay guys I know simply lied (very well, apparently) to their Orthodox bais din and got their conversions. Sadly, none of them are still “frum”. I don’t know why they bothered.
I doubt that you have the whole story in these cases.
Making the conversion process difficult and demanding is definitely in the spirit of Torah. Perhaps there are ways that things can be improved – but telling one side of a story – when you heard it without hearing the other point of view is so lopsided and absurd as to make what you are writing irrelevant.
Stick to what you know about – or so a little bit of journalistic work – call the Rabbi on the beis din and ask him why if someone really walks to shul each week, he could not make a change in the policy. Perhaps you have not a clue what the real story is. That is more than likely.
You’re bringing too much sense to this blog.
yeah
ive never been here before
probably wont be back
“Making the conversion process difficult and demanding is definitely in the spirit of Torah.”
As they say, Citation Needed. The Torah has nothing to say on the subject, the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch very little.
the tamlud is clear that we do what we can to reject him. as is rambam and shulchan aruch. (from memory, BT Yevamos 47a, Rambam Issurei Biah 14, s.a. yoreh deah 268) the midrash sees that this should be done 3 times in the conversation that Naomi had with ruth where she used to word Shovnah 3 times.
come on.
You can say “i dont accept the talmud, shulchan aruch, or rambam as authorotative at all, for i am conservative – or masorti since that makes you feel better” but to say “in fact, conversion was meant to be a cake-walk, like my conservative one was is asinine.
You may be a wonderful person – many people who have conservative conversions are – and if you are on the way up, we are here to embrace you. But we cannot chance the objective standards of truth. If you touch the wine, we cannot drink it.
I fully accept the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch but the simple fact is that neither of them says anything about the hoops and shenanigans going on these days. Besides that I kind of doubt you really know what going through a conversion entails. It is not a “cakewalk” I can assure you. You cant know if you were not there.
Even if there were an Orthodox Beit Din here, I dont know if I’d double down my paperwork. The more machmir than thou types would never be satisfied anyway.
you are right. i can not know what it entails, though i am studying now, and will likely be preforming such things in years.
i do value what you are saying.
Know though, that the difference between one orthodox beis din and another is far different than that between orthodox and conservative. there is no comparison. a conservative conversion isnt good. an orthodox one is. it really is that simple. Rabbanut may only like some and not others – but its members are not so bureaucratic. The Rabbis there and everywhere understand waht is legit and waht is not. and so do you and i
“a conservative conversion isnt good. an orthodox one is. it really is that simple.”
Please do read up on the subject. There is no one standard for Orthodox conversion to begin with. The Torah warns us over and over about not treating proselytes badly, it is a genuine pity that some consider “oh well s/he is not really a proselyte” a valid loophole.
It would certainly be more kind were the more machmir types to show compassion to gerim whose education may have been lacking rather than to dismiss them entirely.
I, too, know of someone required to move to complete her conversion. We are old high school acquaintances, and she was living in the north suburbs of Chicago, not an area wanting for Jews (even Orthodox ones). She was told she had to move to an Orthodox community in the City if she wanted to move forward on the process. She did.
If you’re tired of Orthodox beit dins monopolizing the concept of Judaism, then convert another movement like me. (Bonus: only the people who care will show up on Shabbat, so nobody talks!)
It’s unreasonable to be required to do more than 613–you’re already rejecting your community/birth family’s religion/etc.–unless they impose the same standards on other Jews and actually bother to help them achieve it.
This isn’t meant to minimize the problems with O conversions, but to hope that critical-thinking played into choosing a denomination to convert and maybe help people realize Conservative Jews aren’t the blasphemous heathens they are made out to be.
@julie
conservative judaism is simply not the same thing as orthodox judaism! Conservative judaism doesnt accept that the torah was given as it is by god at sinai. This is a massive difference, among so many others.
if you converted as a conservative jew, and did not accept to keep the 613, then it was no conversion. and if you did accept that, then you werent converting as a conservative jew any more than if a person converted to Islam mentally while being baptised by a priest.
You’re pretty ignorant of Conservative Judaism, but then again, most frummies are.
i am orthodox – but i have an interesting background, and i would venture to say that i have far more knowledge of conservative judaism than most of its members. so to respond to your comment of ‘nah-ah, your the one who has the butthead,” i reply “i know you are but what am i.”
will someone here play p.e. teacher and step in ???????????
It’s kind of hard to keep all 613 since a whole bunch of them deals with Beit HaMikdash and sacrifices and stuff.
By the way, does the Orthodox require their converts to keep the mitzvah of yishuv haaretz?
the orthodox see yishuv haaretz as a mitzvah kiyumit, that one can fulfil but is not obligated to. see igerros moshe.
613 is an expression.
our sages tell us that Jacob (among the other avot) fulfilled 613. now he never destroyed an ir hanidachat, preformed yibbum, remembered the maasseh miriyam.
Isak – the foolishness of both points in this comment makes you completely irrelevant.
How convenient! 😉
By the way, the feeling of irrelevance is mutual… 😉 😉
so we agree that you are an irrelevant person
perfect
I guess my English is better than yours.
you cant even spell your own name
also you would really have to say “my english grammer,” or “my usage of the english language is better,” “my English” is improper – English is not yours or anyones.
try this screen name “irelevantIsakWhoThinksRambamWasReconstrictionist”
so we agree that you are an irrelevant person
perfect
I guess my English is better than yours.
you cant even spell your own name
also you would really have to say “my english grammer,” or “my usage of the english language is better,” “my English” is improper – English is not yours or anyones.
try this screen name “irelevantIsakWhoThinksRambamWasReconstrictionist”
They don’t have creative explanations for that like they did with his marrying sisters?
there are some very creative, and true explanations.
one of the best is that of the Ohev Yisrael (lech lecha)
Protip: if you are going to whargarble in blog comments it is better to pick a user name.
if you converted as a conservative jew, and did not accept to keep the 613, then it was no conversion. and if you did accept that, then you werent converting as a conservative jew any more than if a person converted to Islam mentally while being baptised by a priest.
Wait, so a person was another religion and decided to convert to Islam (in their head?) while getting baptized by a priest…?
This is a really crappy comparison, Anon. A much better one would have been something like “It’s like converting to Methodism but thinking you’re becoming a Catholic,” or something. This third level of conversion is just… well, confusing.
On the plus side, nice job comparing apples with dump trucks.
Why would I want to go to a shul where nobody talks? Seems awfully boring.
Anon- i agree completely. its either all the way – orthodox -or its not valid!
As a conservative convert pursuing orthodox conversion, I can’t be completely against non-O conversions. Over 90% of the other orthodox converts I know (both complete and in-progress, which numbers about 50) have had a prior conversion. One put it best (and it’s meant to be funny), “it’s a gateway drug.” And I know orthodox Judaism wouldn’t be the same without these wonderful converts!
that is certainly true! In fact, surpirsingly, many orthodox converts (a shocking amount really) have been involved in other religions as well. Im sure God has his plan for why so many spiritual seekers have spent time in Ashrams, but we cannot say that since some good has come from funny places, that worshiping cows,or bhuddah or the rest of them (even if many peopel then left that for Torah) is in any way authentic
this is clear
Anon- i totally agree! if its not orthodox then its probably invalid. i i dont think conservative is a valid easy way out of the process- if there’s a process of conversion, its there for a reason!
you rock glamgal
Try going to Israel with an Orthodox conversion and you’ll find that the rabbanut there thinks that even your Orthodox conversion is “probably invalid”.
false
just false
One could cite many cases supporting Isak’s opinion, like the case of Ivanka… 🙂
A member of our community wanted to convert, and went to the Seattle Beis Din to see about doing so. He was married to a Jewish woman, and they had kids. The husband had been shomer mitzvot for about 5 years at that point, and was extremely keen to convert. This is a family that to my knowledge commits an average $20K to their shul each year, are active in the community, own a house that is less than a mile from the shul, and he has a high powered job in the city they live in. The beis din told the husband that since there isn’t a day school in their city, that they would have to move. When he laid out all of the reasons why they needed to stay in the city they were living in (family, parnassah, links to the community), the beis din refused to take him on for gerus. He ended up converting with a more reasonable beis din elsewhere in the US.
I wrote the earlier post about the day school requirement.
My community has a day school, but it is a “community” school (aka, not orthodox), so it’s unacceptable.
To all the people who say: “convert orthodox or you’re not Jewish” : Why should gerim be forced to send their kids to an Orthodox day school, while other Orthodox Jews don’t have to? Does “shomer mitzvot” mean something different for gerim than it does for other frum Jews? A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. If you observe halacha like everyone else in your frum community then you should be allowed to convert without extra rules made up by the RCA / Agudath / whoever.
Not validating the otherwise ridiculous requirements, but in general, they are holding Gerim to a high standard because “we have enough Jews who don’t do what they’re supposed to be doing.” Some unfortunately interpret this in ridiculous ways, but it’s somewhat true. We’re not out there for numbers, and the potential ger wants to join us so they’d have to jump through whatever hoops we decided on.
all jews would be forced by beis din to do things right if we had the power
in the times of the powerful beis din, if a perosn wouldnt shake a lulav, we would beat him until he did. and so with eating matzah etc.
and so too with giving his children authentic Torah education.
the fact is that we only have the levergage on the converts, but if we did ahve it on the rest we would be obligated to exert it. this is not debatable from a tlamudic and halachik standpoint
If the Rambam was alive today, I very much doubt that he would be sending his children to what you call “authentic Torah education”.
Isak – you think the rambam would not teach his children his 13 principles?
thats what authentic torah educataion means.
he would also tell t he boys not to talk to girls, as he wrote in issure biah.
he would also say that you have to learn torah, and anyone can do so even if they are not from t he tribe of levi
you see, he was not conservative
No, he was not convervative. And if he lived today he would base his theology on the knowledge we have today, not on medieval knowledge, and thus he would probably be branded an apikorus by the haredim.
The Rambam would probably burn down most Kollels because these are men not making a living and supporting their wives. He would probably also retch at all the people who avoid science and math education or learning other langauges starting with English.
Yes yes, the Rambam said, those who read Talmud the whole day long do not work at all. This is as simple as that. The rambam would hate these fundamentalists.
all jews would be forced by beis din to do things right if we had the power
in the times of the powerful beis din, if a perosn wouldnt shake a lulav, we would beat him until he did. and so with eating matzah etc.
and so too with giving his children authentic Torah education.
In other words, if you had the power, you’d have even less Jews because there’d be less people willing to put up with your crap.
I’ll make sure to keep praying that the Third Temple doesn’t show up any time soon.
If they make unreasonable demands, why not look for another more normal (orthodox) bet din? (see @Mordechai).
@glamgal, why are non-orthodox conversions not valid? Only O rabbis have the magic Jewish Fairy Powder that turns people Jewish? I think all the problems in this area are 99% politics, 1% halacha.
Um isn’t it obvious? We’re not talking the difference between a moddox and yeshivish conversion. Only an orthodox conversion is actually dedicated to following the halacha (and thus is universally recognizable). Again, some of the non-halacic issues aside, even the most observant conservative conversion would not be in accordance with the basic halachot of a Jewish conversion (we can’t count it if you’re not believing in all 613 mitzvot, or even just having people who are valid rabbis and witnesses performing the conversion).
No one expects you to be already aware of what the halachas are or where they come from, but that lack of knowledge doesn’t somehow invalidate what the orthodox side is doing. If you have to ask, that’s the difference between you and a Rabbi who has spent a lifetime learning exactly these things.
” Only an orthodox conversion is actually dedicated to following the halacha (and thus is universally recognizable). ”
Universally except in Israel where the Rabbinut gets to pick and choose retroactively.
They beg the question. They start the argument where they want to finish. Orthodox say their the right ones, therefore, it must be true, rigith?
{ Sifra 18.5 } Hence even a gentile who obeys the TORAH is the equal of the High Priest..What does this mean ? 2 Sam. 7:19.”This is the Law of mankind;Lord God”… It is not stated this is the Law of the priests or Levites or of Israel BUT the Law of mankind…The universalistic scope of this talmudic statement is most impressive and contradicts todays narrow and discriminative actions done by many modern Rabbis…
It is politics and attempting to monopolize the entire religion like the Charedim in Israel… They’re like the Christians who say “we’re the only real Christians and everyone else is wrong.” They just want to feel exclusive and somehow better about themselves.
and you just said that they are all wrong julie – so you are the one who has to monopolize the religion.
its either you or them, since you are saying opposites that are irreconcilable.
you are just as closed minded as they are
If they’re so wrong, why do non-orthodox Jews care so much? Orthodox Judaism actually doesn’t care at all about non-orthodox Judaism. It’s a non-entity like Christianity with no effect on halacha. For the Non-Orthodox, their whole movement was created out of a rejection of what we now call Orthodoxy, and thus they have something to prove to everyone, including themselves. It doesn’t make the orthodox feel better to reject non-orthodoxy, but it certainly makes non-orthodoxy feel better to bash the orthodox.
For the Non-Orthodox, their whole movement was created out of a rejection of what we now call Orthodoxy
Oy oy OY! I beg to differ. Before the appearance of the Reform movement there was no “Orthodoxy”, there was just “Judaism” – a Judaism which seems to me much broader and more flexible than present-day Orthodoxy. The proof: look at Sephardi Judaism, they don’t have “Reform” etc., but they’re (still) much more open, creative and flexible.
Re. why non-Orthodox converts care, it’s not that they enjoy “bashing the Orthodox”. It’s because in order to convert they’ve had to learn about halacha, Torah study, mitzvot, etc. and once they go through the process they find that they’re more observant than most people they go to shul with. They find the MO world very attractive, because that’s basically the type of Jews they are – but there they get treated as if they weren’t Jews. However, if they decide to go for an Orthodox conversion the bet din is going to make them jump through a Haredi-ish loop, not the MO loop. I think the difficulty of the situation is quite evident; that’s why they’re unhappy about it. (Perhaps you think that MO isn’t “valid” either…)
FS Fan,
Observant Sephardim aren’t any more open, creative or flexible than observant Ashkenazim. In fact, Sephardim are much stricter when it comes to allowing conversions.
You are right about one thing: There is only one Judaism. Conservative and reform has nothing to do with true Judaism, they are cheap imitations meant to appease people that aren’t interested in playing by the rules.
Yes, there’s only one Judaism: the one practiced by Phil and his rabbi. Although, come to think about it, I’m not so sure about the rabbi.
Sephardis who come from some Arab countries aren’t very open to conversions because where they come from they could get in serious trouble if they converted a Muslim.
FS Fan,
As if Jews in Europe wouldn’t get into trouble with the church for converting christians. You might want to read up on your history.
It’s one thing to argue about whether or not to put a matza ball in your soup on Pesach, it’s quite another to allow non Jews to convert and marry Jews.
I have nothing against secular Jews. If they don’t want to practice, don’t.
I do have a problem with people like conservative and reform charlatans (so called rabbis) that parade around shitting all over halacha and creating fake converts in the name of their bogus movements.
phil
you are right
we all know it
Anon,
Of course I’m right 😉
I thought I knew it all until I just watched a news clip about a so called conservative rabbi in New Jersey that will be officiating a gay marriage between to Jewish guys.
I wonder if he’ll make them sign a ketuba, or if he’ll have the chutzpah to have them recite the part about being married according to the law of Moshe and Yisrael when they exchange rings :0
Anon,
Of course I’m right 😉
I thought I knew it all until I just watched a news clip about a so called conservative rabbi in New Jersey that will be officiating a gay marriage between to Jewish guys.
I wonder if he’ll make them sign a ketuba, or if he’ll have the chutzpah to have them recite the part about being married according to the law of Moshe and Yisrael when they exchange rings :0
QQ Fail on your part. No one said what was around then was called orthodoxy. Orthodox is a definition ironically created by the Reform to distinguish who was following the “outdated” Judaism and who was a part of Neo-Judaism. In our times, as I even stated explicitly before, we call ourselves orthodox, although as far as we’re concerned, we’re still the same Torah Judaism. Rabbis before the distinctions were created would find what is now called “orthodox” far more acceptable than what is now called “reform”.
Also your response about non-orthodox converts ending up in different movements has nothing to do with the non-orthodox’s active rejection of orthodoxy vrs. the passive rejection from the orthodox side.
As mentioned before, I don’t care for the excessive regulations they put on converts and MO or Haredi makes no difference to me (there should be more MO Batei Dinim that actually handle this stuff).
“why do non-orthodox Jews care so much? ”
Here’s a funny thing: I’m a convert who davens at Chabad, keeps the commandments as much as possible, studies Torah and Talmud, wears tzitzi etc etc etc but I get the bonus treatment of a hairy eyeball from some other Jews because my conversion was under a Masorti rabbi. I get the bonus double serving of cr*p from the outside world for being a Jew and an extra serving inside the Jewish world from some folks who whisper to each other “did he open the wine bottle?” and so on. I went into this knowing full well what was in store, but sometimes it still ruffles my feathers.
That is why this “non-Orthodox Jew” cares so much.
Phil,
Dont bother, we’ve already had this conversation, I’m just addressing Synapse on this point.
@ Chris_B
If you knew what you were getting into when you converted Masorti, why would you be upset because people don’t think you’re Jew. It was your choice, right?
Because logic and emotion are not the same. Because of the blatant double standards all across the board. Because even if there were an Orthodox beit din here for me to re-certify (there is no word for this) some people would still mutter and doubt. There have been numerous posts here about problems within Orthodoxy concerning Orthodox converts after all.
Again, I was answering Synapse’s specific question.
The care because Israel made charedi orthodoxy its official religion through the rabbinate, this is why they care.
I also had the day school requirement as part of my geirus. Years later I had a situation with one of my children who needed special ed. I called the rabbi who converted me (and who was also on the beis din) and asked him what I should do. Under those circumstances he told me it was acceptable to go outside the day school system for that child. Obviously I don’t know how it might be held for others, but that was my experience.
Thank you for sharing this! That makes me feel a little better!
You got lucky. There’s this guy who blogs quite a lot about his two adopted children and how the beit din won’t convert them. He’s frum, he lives in a frum community, is raising the kids in a frum family, etc. But one of the kids has special needs and can’t go to an Orthodox day school. So what does the beit din say? They say he doesn’t care about raising them as Jews because he “won’t” send them to a frum school, so the kids can’t convert. It’s terrible.
you have no idea what the real story is
you are just running your mouth
If it’s the same person I think it is, he got the green light for his kids a few days ago.
That’s great to hear.
If that man lives in the NY/NJ area, tell him to look into sending his child to the SINAI school. It is a MO Yeshiva for children with learning disabilities. So, there are options out there.
Judaism is very particular about who is accepted as a true convert. At times, there were complete moratoriums on conversions, such as during the reign of David and Shlomo hamelech (kings David and Solomon). During David’s reign, converts were deemed “unsinscere” due to fear of the regime, during Shlomo they were deemed unsinscere due to Israel’s status as a world leader at the time.
I can understand rabbis wanting to ensure converts sending their kids to Jewish schools. Even Jews that attend public schools USUALLY end up non observant and intermarried within 1-2 generations. Jewish education is the only way of ensuring our continuity.
I feel sorry for potential sincere converts that are put through ever increasing rigourus demands, but Beth din has valid reasons for doing so in most cases. It not all about money and politics and not every religious rabbi is a Tropper.
As for other “smart” ideas of potential converts fooling themselves and others by going conservative or reform, those conversions are 100% bogus, you may as well get you geirus in a gumball machine.
I have relatives that married conservative converts, they know absolutely nothing about Judaism except for Charlton Heston as Moses, Fiddler on the roof and Manishewitz Matza. They don’t observe basic laws such as Kosher or Shabbat, so what makes them Jewish? A pricked prick?
I know nothing about reform conversions, but there are many orthodox opinions that conservative converts need to be treated at least as doubtful converts, since they are circumsized and immersed in front of a court.
Its the fear that they call themself jewish and they will mix in, in the coming generations
“As for other “smart” ideas of potential converts fooling themselves and others by going conservative or reform, those conversions are 100% bogus, you may as well get you geirus in a gumball machine.”
Phil, be careful!
Keep in mind that you might, you just might be wrong in regards to the validity of non-Orthodox conversions, and if you are wrong, you’re commiting a very serious aveira by calling these converts bogus.
Zld/Isak,
Though there MIGHT be a HANDFUL of conservative converts that are POSSIBLY Jewish, the vast majority haven’t followed the process of Learning Torah and Halacha and living as observant Jews for a period before their conversion.
My relative in question fell in love with a non Jew, and they decided to marry. At this point, the guy is alreay invalid according to most opinions, since he had an alterior motive.
Next, the guy wasn’t interested in following religion whatsoever, despite claiming that he wants to become “Jewish”. The orthodox rejected him after he wouldn’t agree to a 3 year waiting/practice period, so he chose the conservative “express” version:
3 months, a few kindergarden level Sunday classes about Avraham, Moshe, the crossing of the red sea, I could have taught him more from my 2 year old daughter’s coloring book. As he was already circumsized, a simple prick in the prick, and yippee your one of us.
Today, they don’t keep kosher, Shabbat, Yom Tov or any other Jewish laws. What make them Jewish? Some fake certificate in his wallet? Thank God his wife is Jewish, at least the kids are full Jews.
If these are conservative standards, I cringe when I think of what reform’s standards might be.
Phil,
Those are not typical Conservative standards just so you know. I must say I dont know what THE standard is even though I’ve tried to research that question. As far as I can tell there is no standard set by the Reform, Conservative or Orthodox movements, it seems to be entirely up to the community in question.
Note that I’m not trying to defend the Conservative movement, just pointing out that it seems to be a Your Milage May Vary situation in all cases.
Chris,
The case I was referring to happened in Texas, where conservative is much closer to reform. I even now of one place in Houston that made a Bar mitzvah for a kid with a catholic mother, she got an aliya too. In Montreal, the 1 or 2 conservative synagogues are “frummer” if I may use that word.
Anyway, this is exactly the reason that you can’t expect frum Jews to recognize conservative conversions. There are no set standards.
Of course that is fishy. Still you should not judge all Conservative conversions based on that than Orthodox conversions based on Rabbi Leib Tropper.
Chris,
Unfortunately, the lack of acceptable halachic standards used in conservative conversions makes them unacceptable to mainstream Judaism.
Though a conservative convert might be equally or more sincere than one that converted through an orthodox rabbi, it isn’t the norm.
Converting in order to marry a Jew invalidates a conversion, just as not practicing staple rules like Shabbat and Kosher. As most conservative rabbis don’t enforce these rules, we consider their conversions invalid.
Phil,
If there were an accepted reasonably widely adopted set of standards for conversion for either stream I would concede the point. Since there isn’t we are still stuck at opposite ends of the table.
I do recall an opinion in the Talmud which said that marriage was OK after all, but dont recall the source, but that is just one sub point of the overall issue. Shabbat and Kosher are obvious baselines anyway.
Lets let this rest for now, I dont think either of us can add anything constructive. I’ll close out with if I ever make it to your neck of the woods, drinks are on me.
Chris,
I’ll definitely take you up on it if you decide to visit, I’ll reciprocate the offer next time I’m in Tokyo. Just don’t pour my wine unless it’s Saki 😉
Yes, I don’t think we should have conversions at all. It boils my blood when I hear of people who convert and years later are still living somewhere without a shul, school, or anything frum. Then we have to worry about if their geirus was actually good, and if in a few generations, we will unknowingly be marrying non-jews.
“I don’t think we should have conversions at all.”
Well, you’re kind off at odds with Jewish tradition there, so.
Remember that David HaMelekh was a decendant of a convert.
but dont froget isak, you dont care at all for jewish tradition
only modern knowledge
@ Daniel
This is the reason why many Orthodox conversions are being called into question. An Orthodox Rabbi shouldn’t convert anyone unless they’re living in a community, following mitzvot, keeping kosher, observing the Sabbath, etc….
This is really not something to joke about. Do you know how many people are still carrying the scars of past experiences? The hurt I still carry around. The feelings of neglect, betrayal, isolation. There were 3 crock pots! 3. Damn it. 3. I have to smell the cholent cooking through 2 hours of davening, and then somehow soldier on after being left with some hardened sponge cake and seltzer. There is no justice in this world.
The five mile business I can understand, but changing from cities with all you need for religious life is something else.
There’s no across the board with Orthodox, either. They gave me a hard time and I was fully sincere. However, I know two girls who just figured it would get them married and they weren’t one lick sincere.
Before you go saying who am I to say that. Well, they told me. One said she wanted to convert because she dates Jewish guys and the other one also said she only wanted a man with money and she figured Jewish guys have money.
I guess, I understand the hoops and whistles that converts have to go through, where others may consider them double standards. Not only must converts show that they are confident in the faith and shomer mitzvot, but also must show an intention to learn and embrace the Jewish culture despite the challenges that can and will arise due to being born outside of the culture. Coming to conversion with stipulations (not being willing to move to what the Rabbi considers a better environment to cultivate a Jewish spirit and home) could be seen as a sign that the convert will be weak in the face of spiritual challenges down the road.
As for the question of Orthodox versus Conservative (or other) conversion, from my understanding, the fundamental belief that the Torah was divinely given to Moses is put into question by non-Orthodox Jews (correct me if I’m wrong on this) and Rabbis in the Orthodox tradition are ordained through a rigorous process that centers around this principle, so that a person going the through the conversion process with a non-Orthodox Rabbi wouldn’t be converted under the true meaning of the Torah.
OF course one might say that the mere humanity including the yetzer hara of a potential convert could be seen as a sign that she or he will be weak in the face of spiritual challenges down the road as well.
Just as an FYI item and in this case it does not refute your comment, there are Masorti/Conservative Rabbis out there of the old school, closer to what ModOx used to be. I was lucky enough to study with one. Unfortunately the Conservative movement in the US seems to have adopted that and other modernishe foolishness as you point out. As for me when someone brings up multiple authorship I consider that to be fighting words 🙂
For a long time I didn’t understand why anyone would want to covert, then I realized at some level they had the pintel yid (Jewish spark).
I feel more comfortable with “born Jews” because I am a B’aala Teshuva and they seem to accept me with all my ignorance and help me to learn. And as part of my return to Judaism, I moved three short blocks from my MO shul and learned about kashrut (not in that order). I try to be helpful to potential converts, but trying to make it too easy does not test their resolve and I’ve been burned a few times. And in terms of the Israeli rabbinate, they have acknowledged certain conversion Beis Dins and their conversions. So anyone converting with a US Beis Din should be sure to go to one of the acknowledged courts. And your Orthodox rabbi should know which they are.
May you all be written in the Book of Life and sealed for a Good Year.
Linda
Linda,
Where is it written that you should “test their resolve”? Just as an FYI the Torah is very explicit about being kind to the sojourner and stranger who dwells with you. Just a reminder.
I don’t test their resolve at all! I don’t know what I said would indicate that I did. What I meant is that after hosting overnight, I had a potential convert just disappear and not explain why. She was facing a rough go as a Ger as she was Black and had no family support for her conversion, so I understand. However, after being friends, I would have appreciated a “good-by.”
I leave testing the resolve to the rabbeim. And I remember Naomi tested Ruth’s resolve three times.
In the past I’ve gone out of my way to offer meals, loan books, etc. I’ve now learned to wait until asked to go beyond what I would do for any new person moving into the shul, which is offer the first Shabbos meal. Then I wait and see. And if the potential convert is male, it becomes more complicated as I must have two Jewish men present if I invite him for a meal (See Laws of Yichud).
And while I only returned to Yiddishkeit some eight years ago, I suspect I am at least as knowledgeable as most given my Partner in Torah from Lakewood, lectures at the Richmond Torah Center, and friends in the community, as well as membership and classes in my MO Shul.
> I don’t know what I said would indicate that I did.
This:
>I try to be helpful to potential converts, but trying to make it too easy does not test their resolve
I’m not picking on you particularly, its just that many FFB/BT or just plain Jews by birth seem to forget sometimes. On behalf of all those you have helped, thank you.
Chris,
I believe rabbinic law requires some kind of “resolve testing”. Conversions were outlawed at certain periods of our history particularly when it became too hard to test resolve.
In king David’s era, the surrounding nations were deemed to be “living in fear”, due to his military successes. They feared that converts would have an ulterior motive, so they put a moratorium on conversion into effect.
In king Solomon’s era, Israel was the world’s superpower. Everyone wanted in because of the peace and prosperity, so again, converts were suspect to have ulterior motives. Moratorium was extended.
Testing a converts resolve is not equal to dealing harshly or being unkind. Futhermore, the Torah commands us to treat converts with extra kindness, nowhere is it mentioned to extend that extra kindness to potential converts.
Modern Rabbinic “law” in this area includes all sorts of mishigos not found in the Talmud, SA/AS, Mishne Torah, etc. Thats the point of this post anyway.
Last I noticed, we don’t have a king of the line of David right now and it would be a big stretch to say those conditions applied now. As for “potential” converts it depends on what ran you hold with. Some of our so called gedolim would tell you that anyone who isn’t a Jew no matter if they are interested in adopting our life or not are not worth the time of day. I personally find that to be a very odd reading of Torah.
Chris,
Mishneh Torah does suggest “testing resolve” when dealing with potential converts, I believe S.A. does so as well. Of course, there are limits, and common sense / decency should prevail, even though that isn’t always the case.
The general consensus is that ulterior motives (such as marriage) cast enough doubt to invalidate the conversion. While some Ortho rabbis may bend the rules, many frum rabbis (especially sephardim) won’t allow it, at least from what I’ve heard.
I’ve got MT on this computer, maybe you could tell me where that is because I’m sure I missed it. I don’t have an SA with me but do have PDFs of Talmud. Again, based on my reading which is lacking the education that so many have, I don’t see that really written.
As for the “general consensus” it always amazes me how the Rabbis seem to know better than the Talmud or Rambam who said that particular reason was actually OK. Then again, we can only go to the judges in our time.
Check Mishnah Torah, hilchot issurei biah (forbiden relations) chapter 13, laws10 thru 13. Should give you a general idea of what I wrote above.
If your hebrew is good enough, you can check it out at:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/lessons.cgi?date=28062011&r3=1&Java=y
Chris,
Looks like my other comment got stuck in the filter due to the link I embedded.
Check Mishnah Torah, hilchot issurei biah (forbiden relations) chapter 13, laws10 thru 13.
Got it right here. Not following you. You mean the bit in Halacha 10 about “In the Diaspora, however, he must bring proof of his conversion”? Is that understood differently than written?
Sorry, they are double numbered on the link. Try laws 14 and 15 in the same chapter.
17 seems to nullify 14-15 in terms of “ulterior motive” but IANAR. I’ve always found it very interesting that this whole section, RAMBAM seems more lenient than the Rabbis in charge of gerut today. Once again, the “judges in your time” qualifier applies.
Its 4AM here and I’m knee deep in migrating my mother in law’s WinME computer to a Win7 computer so I’ll just beg off this thread for now.
Thanks
Chris,
I don’t think the intent in # 17 is meant to nullify 14-15. It’s what happens when the geirut was done run by simpletons bedi-aved/”by accident”. Knowing how the Rambam felt about people such as the “conservative” or “reform” equivalents of his day, I doubt their modern day counterparts guys would even qualify (in his eyes) as ignoramuses, let alone simpletons.
And yes, Rambam is more lenient than today’s poskim in many cases. Important to note, that Rambam isn’t the final authority. Typically, his rules are followed unless S.A. disagrees, except in a few cases that are more of grey areas.
Anyway, good luck with the upgrade.
Good points. On this matter however, Rambam has so much more to say than the SA.
As for the upgrade, I sure wish I could have convinced MiL to go with Apple this time. So much easier….
Chris,
I haven’t had much trouble with Intels, but I typically won’t switch OS without upgrading to a new machine at the same time. Keeps things much cleaner.
Speaking of upgrades, have you ever considered “upgrading” your conversion?
It was a new machine, Win7 and WinME don’t play nice together with networking. I’ve done cross machine migrations on OSX spanning several OS versions that went really easy.
I have considered getting OJ paperwork just for the sake of whatever. I could scan in the paperwork and do one of those t-shirt transfer prints onto my talit. Or something. It would mean dealing with a brit din on another continent, rabbis who don’t know me or my wife and would mean anything to my local community. I think the only reason would be for if/when we decide to make aliyah.
Chris,
I hear you. I’ve hade some network compatibilty issues with Win 2000 / Win 7 myself.
OJ papers are one thing, keeping up with frum standards are quite another.
Only serious issues related to conversion levels are marriage & kids. If you’re already married and not planning to have kids, I guess it won’t make too much of a difference to anyone except yourself if you stick with status quo.
You may face the “don’t pour my wine” thing from some religious people, but I imagine you can live with that, especially in your neighborhood.
Whatever papers I hold, someone will always be frummer than me, someone will always judge. Thats what you have to accept when you join the tribe. Born Jews never fully know what that is like. Even I was rocking the blackest of black hats, someone would always take issue with me pouring their wine. That said, one of these days I’ll get new papers.
We get it too. Their will always be a frummer than thou dude ho won’t eat in your house, and even a frummer one that won’t eat in his house, etc. etc. Of course, no one is calling my Jewish identity into question, so it’s not going to be half as bad. But at least you can appreciate that your potential descendants would have an easier time if you got better paperwork and lived the part to go along with it.
Chris,
I hear you. I’ve hade some network compatibilty issues with Win 2000 / Win 7 myself.
OJ papers are one thing, keeping up with frum standards are quite another.
Only serious issues related to conversion levels are marriage & kids. If you’re already married and not planning to have kids, I guess it won’t make too much of a difference to anyone except yourself if you stick with status quo.
You may face the “don’t pour my wine” thing from some religious people, but I imagine you can live with that, especially in your neighborhood.
Whatever papers I hold, someone will always be frummer than me, someone will always judge. Thats what you have to accept when you join the tribe. Born Jews never fully know what that is like. Even I was rocking the blackest of black hats, someone would always take issue with me pouring their wine. That said, one of these days I’ll get new papers.
We get it too. Their will always be a frummer than thou dude ho won’t eat in your house, and even a frummer one that won’t eat in his house, etc. etc. Of course, no one is calling my Jewish identity into question, so it’s not going to be half as bad. But at least you can appreciate that your potential descendants would have an easier time if you got better paperwork and lived the part to go along with it.
I think we should require all converts to live in Eretz Yisrael, since that is truly the only place where you can properly perform mitzvos.
Requiring someone to move to LA or New York is just silly. There is nothing holy ab out those cities. But if you are going to take on the Mitzvos and become Jewish, then REALLY take on the Mitzvos and move to Israel. This should be a no brainer.
DD,
Following that logic, we should all move there. Besides, living in Israel doesn’t necessarily make you perform your mitzvos any better. If you’re not a farmer, you don’t have too many more mitzvos than those of us living on the outside.
I agree Crowin cock… we SHOULD all move there!
Something I only truly understood last Shabbos. Jews are a tribe and tribal. In any tribe there are rituals that a potential member must undergo. If someone wants to dispute the rituals, whatever they are, then the tribe does not have to accept the person into the tribe.
And all the complaints about non-Orthodox conversions not being accepted (in Israel or by the Orthodox) lose their potency.
If a person didn’t go through the accepted rituals by the Orthodox tribe, that’s unfortunate but does not make them a member of the Jewish tribe by Orthodox standards.
I have sympathy for those folks, however, they can always convert Orthodox if they go through the accepted rituals and promises (and go to a Beit Din approved by the Orthodox rabbinate in Israel).
Joining a tribe by adoption is never easy.
Thats very observant of you. Most people in the tribe cant even put into words what exactly it is. I only realized it when r tzvi freeman of chabad.org wrote a piece on it.
Then so many things finally clicked into place. The chessed, the closemindedness, the focus on religiosity to the extent of even overshadowing the core spirituality .
Thats very observant of you. Most people in the tribe cant even put into words what exactly it is. I only realized it when r tzvi freeman of chabad.org wrote a piece on it.
Then so many things finally clicked into place. The chessed, the closemindedness, the focus on religiosity to the extent of even overshadowing the core spirituality .
Thanks, OfftheDwannaB
“very observant of you”…well I try.
Of course many Orthodox beit din around the world might not agree that the Israeli Rabannut holds the authority of the Sanhedrin of yore.
The issue was having the Orthodox conversion accepted in Israel, not whether “the Israeli Rabbinate holds the authority of the Sanhedrin of yore.”
If a converted person wanted to be accepted by one of those other Orthodox beit dins as Jewish, that person would need to convert by that beit din’s criteria.
And in Israel, it’s much more important to perform the mitzvahs properly.
I don’t plan to move to Israel until the Mosiach comes or rampant antisemitism breaks out in the USA (whichever comes first).
Moving INTO a war just doesn’t seem sensible to me. And I suspect it’s going to get much worse after the whole PA thing at the UN.
In theory, I’d love to be able to move there. Main issue is finding enough income to replace what we have here. Secondary issue is having my kids drafted into an army that cares more about playing politics than about actually protecting their soldiers.
As such, I probably won’t move their until I’m forced to or until I’m ready to retire, whichever comes first (unless Mashiach or the lottery comes thru before then).
If you do not know the specifics of this woman’s situation, you might find it appropriate not to disparage the rabbis. The woman has chosen her priorities & made them very clear to the vaad. She is a welcome participant in the community. The rabbis are doing their jobs very well in this case.
I am a BT, and I once couldn’t understand why anyone would convert Orthodox. After doing my best to be Shomer Mitzvot, Shomer Kashrut, and Shomer Shabbos for 8 plus years, I am happier than I’ve ever been. I can trace my female line for 7 generations, and I am sure I was born Jewish. But if G-d Forbid, I learned I wasn’t, I WOULD convert now. And since I am 66, hopefully the Beit Din wouldn’t make me move to a community with Orthodox Day Schools. The likelihood of me having children given my unmarried situation and my age is below that of Sarah, Rebecca, and Rachel, our matriarchs of blessed memory. G-d willing, I won’t have to face the need for conversion. I do my best to help potential converts by inviting them for meals. Once I know they keep kosher, I accept invitation for meals at their homes. Orthodox conversion is a very complicated issue. I understand potential Orthodox converts in Canada have to come to the USA’s beit dins.
The rules for conversion get stricter and stricter day by day – this is not the spirit of the Torah, historically it was never like this before (only in times when conversion was banned), one could cite many instances even for mass conversions… This show the narrow minded attitude of jewish leaders, and the authoritarian thinking of many followers who do not push for an inclusive judaism and maintain injustice.