I was in Berkeley a couple shabbosim ago and thought about how much time it took for them to take out and put away the Torah. They take it out, walk it around and everyone kisses it,the women put it away and they make a big deal of walking it around the ezras nashim and then stand at the ark while the congregation takes forever to sing a bunch of songs before everyone had to sit though a speech which proved to me that no matter how pro-woman I am – I can’t stand their divrei Torah in shul. In yeshiva we took the Torah out there was no sing song, if you wanted to get some play, you had to walk up to the Torah for a smooch – it never just came to you with open legs.
Those are the two extremes and it’s pretty obvious, the frummer you are, the less time you spend dealing with pesicha and all that jazz. Left wing modern orthodox and hippie shuls take the longest, modern orthodox has a whole range, but the frummer the shul the less likely they are to walk it all around the shul like they were taking a road trip or something. The frummer folks tend to sing less and just want to jump into laining.
This is all just my personal observations, but of course I tend to observe a lot more than the regular Yid – so that kind of makes me an authority on the practices of them in their temples. So now I bet some of you are wondering why this happens to be, why someone who’s less religious would make a bigger deal about a Torah they tend to follow less than the more religious folks? It’s a good question and my attempt at answering it may fall flat, but the simple reason is that when you live a Torah life you tend to take out the Torah more often – how many people who are in attendance at the average lefty shul are coming on Mondays and Thursdays to shachris? How many of them are going to be at shabbos mincha? It seems to me that the whole song and dance that goes on is more about the song and dance than the actual Torah that doesn’t seem to be being followed much by these crowds.
Pretty insightful observation. I would extend it a bit further to say that davening in shuls is inversely proportional to the frumness- the less frum- the longer the davening. Same explanation as you gave- if you only go to shul once a week, once a month or once a year, you kinda need to get your monies worth. If you go a dozen times or more a week, you don’t have a lot of tolerance for a lot of songs and carrying on. So I say- to each his (or her) own. Maybe that’s why there are so many different kinds of shuls- something for everybody.
Actually, you can extend this. The frummer the person, the LESS important the shul is, compared to the home. In a really frum community, all the action is really at home.
But as you go from chareidi to reform, the synagogues replace the home as the core of Jewish life.
Just gave whole kiruv-y type class on this. It was all about the role of the shul and Rav in traditional Judaism. The women I talked to were really very confused/excited about this. I’ve always been surprised that to most of the not yet religious women all their religious activity only occurs in shuls= I was once teaching basic brachos to a little girl who told me “Oh I know the prayer for bread, but don’t we only say that when in a synagogue?”
I think that there’s something to this. After I finished my giyur, I spoke for a group on Shabbat. One of the women asked me if I felt “different” after the conversion. I told her “not really,” which surprised her. I think that this is because until I’ve got my own family/home life, I won’t really be doing things that much differently than when I was in process.
Hell yes, i fail take advantage of the pen something have a regard for this but that didnt have time, may i repost this The longer your shul takes to parade in language away the Torah, the less frum
Could also be that all that singing is the only connection some people have to the Torah all week. The frummer the shul, the more chance that the congregants are people that learn Torah every day.
I though I mentioned that
Speaking from the UK – Similar inverse proportions apply to talking in shul – the more left wing the more the “church like” decorum – the more right wing (with the exception of shtieblach) the more of a “market place” it becomes with kids running around and the backchat of the kehilla.
I think that I agree with this, as far as petiha goes (with the exception in #1 below). I don’t know if I buy it as far a shul services in general go, to the extent that commenters above are arguing.
1. You have to control for nusah – on a Monday-Thursday with tahanun, there’s only so quick that you can get out of a Sephardic minyan. Plus, even the more “yeshivish” Eastern (Moroccan [even though Morocco is in the west], Syrian, Temani, generic Sephardic) shuls that I’ve attended take more time with the singing in general. The hazzan even says brikh shmeh out loud in an audible voice rather than buzzing through it!
2. How maqpid is the shul on qorbanot? The “Lithvish” Yeshiva in New Haven (where I finished my conversion) takes longer on weekdays than the Young Israel because they say everthing. Shabbat is a different though, but mainly because they cut out “An`im Zemirot” and the YI rabbi gives longer derashot.
Maybe frumness is directly correlated with weekday service length but inversely correlated with Shabbat/Yom Tov? (Thus, in less religious communities , the services are the shortest of all, i.e., non-existent.) This still wouldn’t account for the most consistently “efficient” shul I’ve attended, the Harvard Hillel Orthodox minyan.
How about the deqorum during Shaharit?
And why isn’t there ptiha during qorbanot?
One must always watch their “P”s and “Q”s
take, for instance, the state of South Dakota, with a population less than the city of San Francisco. they probably count only a few hundred Jews among that…there appears to be only 2 synagogues in the entire state, not even a Chabad house, so it is likely that Synagogue Of The Hills, in Rapid City serves as a community and cultural center in addition to a shul, or ‘temple’ as seculars prefer.
The way you are describing the difference between male and female laining is exactly the same way men and women have sex! Men are in and out, done and keep the woman/Torah locked up. A woman needs to romance, take her time, and form a deep connection with her love/Torah, which let’s face it irritates a few men. Perhaps G-d had this in mind when he gave the Torah to us women first?
Yeah, that’s not the case. The “extended version” of Torah parading is due to the novelty of davening and the rituals of Tefilah for the uninitiated, ignorant and unaffiliated Jews that feel the need for Shabbos morning davening to fill the vacuum of Hollywood or Broadway entertainment. In fact, the Chazzanim of yesteryear were in fact competing against Broadway in those larger shuls that had a high concentration of non-observant Jews. Observant Jews that have a close, frequent relationship with G-d through daily Tefilah Be-Tzibur are not looking for extended pomp and circumstance rituals though they do appreciate a Baal Tefilah who can enhance their personal Tefilos. Nothing to do with any imagined Male-Female spiritual rivalry.
So let me think about this:
Day minyans- Orthodox definitely take longer than Conservative, pretty consistently. Conservatives tend to cut corners on length of tachanun and repeating amidah, things like that. Don’t have enough non-shabbos experience with Sephardim to comment.
Within Orthodoxy haven’t seen much of a pattern yet.
Shabbat- Definitely Reform has shortest service since they cut out almost everything!
With Conservatives I’ve seen both very long and very short services. At one extreme, some Cs have triennial cycle (which reduces time spent on Torah reading), cut down a bit here and there, and get out in two hours and change. At the other extreme some Cs do everything Orthodox shuls do PLUS spend half an hour telling each other how wonderful the bar mitzvah boy is. (Generally the larger the C shul the longer the service because of this). With a bar mitzvah I have seen some C shuls get almost to 4 hours.
With Orthodox: Sephardic the longest because they spend an hour on Pseuki d Zimra (and move the Torah in and out slowly too). Not sure I see much of a pattern otherwise.
Why is half @ss mumbling everything considered frum? Did the Leviyim mumble everything when they were singing in the Bet HaMikdash? Doesn’t Psukey DeZimra mean “Chapters of Song”?
Definitely. They stood in a disorganized mob on the steps shuckling like it’s a weight loss program and each one davened at his own pace to his own preferred melody. This is where we learn how to say kaddish yatom.
Everyone knows that the more monotone, unenthused a wend lightning quicken we davening, the more frum you ar.e. Singing is for secular jews
“no matter how pro-woman I am – I can’t stand their divrei Torah in shul. ”
Always another dig. No wonder you’re still single. (Satire, schmatire–I don’t find anything funny about sexist remarks.) What else can’t you stand about women? I suggest that you take Shana’s comment to heart.
Aw, this is an exceptionally excellent blog post. In theory Let me prepare such as this equally — bringing time period along with actual work to make a great document…still exactly what do WHEN I mention…MY PARTNER AND I put things a lot and never often acquire a thing done.
Um… what?
Why do the women sing and sing and sing? Why does a cantor in a conservative shul drive you insane behaving like he’s in Lincoln Center instead of Shabbos services? Talk about drawn out! Why does one Jew bow down in slow motion, almost far enough to see the back of the shul through his legs? Why does someone who donates money for anything insist on everyone knowing and preferring a plaque to anonymity? Because they are holier than Tao.