Dear Heshy,
I know that you live out of town and consider yourself frum, so I hope that you and your out of town readers don’t take this the wrong way, but I always felt that those folks who moved out of town were sacrificing on their yiddishkeit for a higher quality of life in the secular sense. To put it bluntly, I really don’t hold out of towners to a high standard, unless they traveled to far off places to do kiruv. Kiruv is a lofty enough enterprise to give one a heter to move away from the centers of frumkeit, but to merely leave because you can’t make it in a regular frum community is no excuse.
I should make one thing clear, unlike most frum Jews I agree with you that many east coast cities that frummies consider out of town are in fact just extensions of town. New Jersey, Connecticut, and Baltimore for example are quite in town, while places like Denver, Chicago, Phoenix, and Detroit are definitely out of town.
How can you consider yourself to be frum, when you put yourself in such a dangerous situation? You live in a place without a minyan factory, multiple mikvos, yeshivas, pizza stores, or an eruv and you expect to stay frum. How can one stay frum without all of the conveniences of frum life. The temptation to leave the path is strong enough that I was a Posek I wouldn’t allow anyone to leave the NY/NJ area.
I’m curious as to how you or anyone reading this can justify your decision to leave a large frum area to go to Siberia?
Proud life long Brooklyn resident.
Dear PLLBR,
Don’t worry, I take no offense to your theories because they are pure nonsense. Unfortunately, your viewpoint is shared by many in the frum community whether they state it so plainly or not. If the NY metro area was such a good place for frum Jews, why is the Off The Derech community mostly from that area, you seldom meet someone from a true out of town community that went off the derech. Why is it that most of the complaining, kvetching, and general annoyance at frumkeit is from those who call the large Jewish communities home? Could it be that those who live in large Jewish cities may have all the kosher food, yeshivas, and minyan factories at their disposal yet have no happiness in their lives.
I can’t speak for everyone, but once one moves away from the large Jewish centers, it seems that folks are a little less judgmental and a little more content with their lives. In a small Jewish community everyone has to work together, you can’t just start a new minyan or yeshiva because you don’t agree with the one you currently have. Sure, I’d like to have the breakaway heicha kedusha minyan, but I would never do anything to hurt my community regardless of the fact that a 3.5 hour shabbos shachris is 2 hours too long. I learn to live with it and in the process it opens your mind.
By Lakewood standards we out of town folks are less frum, we tend not to receive tznius pamphlets telling us how to dress and I never get to attend any kind of asifa whatsoever. In fact, many of my community members have televisions in their homes and still the Rabbi allows us to eat by them. Sure, I myself am far frummer than most of my fellow community members, but I keep my judgements to myself and prefer to anonymously write them on the internet.
Now to the title of your question, can one be frum and live out of town? I guess it all depends on what you consider frum, if you consider having a lot of choices as to what frum luxuries you want, then no, we out of town peeps can never really be frum. I have to drive 400 miles to eat kosher pizza, buy seforim, and look at women in skirts.
You may notice that the only folks advocating for folks to move out of town are not really that frum, for instance the OU has a yearly community fair showcasing out of town communities and what they will give you if you move there. Most of the really frum people moving out of town are merely doing so to help more people move to the big cities, for instance kiruv workers tend to make their subjects so frum that they leave the places they grew up because it’s not frum enough for them there. Take a look at San Francisco, kiruv has decimated their frum population, everyone becomes frum and moves away because one cannot possibly be frum in such an out of town place.
Find out more about Out of Town on 4torah.com
I am more than willing to take the blows from all the attacks, usually subtle letzanus wisecracks that this place is notorious for, for saying the truth. But it is almost indisputably true that living “in town” where you can almost live and breath Torah, Rabbonim, Yeshivos and Chesed does have a major positive effect on its Torah Jewish residents. This is something that is lost when living elsewhere.
> it is almost indisputably true that living “in town” where you can almost live and breath Torah, Rabbonim, Yeshivos and Chesed does have a major positive effect on its Torah Jewish residents.
That depends on your definition of “positive effect,” no?
Yea, I hate living around other Jews. Jews are so annoying.
Your position is only true for someone with no backbone or self-direction. We live in a world of instant communication and enough shiurim online -both recorded and live – to make the ancient sanhedrin green with envry. If you have gravel in your guts and fire in your heart you can be a dedicated Torah Jew just about anywhere. If you can’t, then you’re probably not as frum as you think you are.
Great point. If you can’t do it without your constant brainwashing and social pressure than you aren’t a spiritual person in your heart in a Jewish sense.
[…] postive effect*on it Jewish residents[…]
* Flatbush and extensions excluded.
“If the NY metro area was such a good place for frum Jews, why is the Off The Derech community mostly from that area, you seldom meet someone from a true out of town community that went off the derech.”
Actually, out-of-town has a notably higher rate of OTD teens (and adults) than the NYC area.
Someone who was never on the derech can’t really be off the derech, so I doubt the rate is higher out of town. The ratio of frum to non-frum though, is generally higher.
(and considering NYC has a million+ jews, I’m curious as to the rate there overall.)
“Actually, out-of-town has a notably higher rate of OTD teens (and adults) than the NYC area.”
I’d really like to see what reputable place you get that information from… Actually I won’t hold my breath.
i dont think anyone has actual statistics as to which side has more people going OTD. I will say however that people are far happier living out of town than in town. This could largely be due to the lack of pressure to “shtel tzu”. and for the record there are places out of town like Chicago or Cleveland that are very frum despite not having all the rabonim and chessed
I moved out of town because although I am a BT I hate living around nosy (no pun intended) frum Jews in my buissness. Plus opens the door to the OTD option
Heshy, living out of town is a threat to our mesorah. Just like you say about modern orthodox. Oh wait, it isn’t?
PLLBR,
First, New Jersey and Connecticut are not cities. Second, people who live in Israel wonder the exact same things about you.
Best,
Jeremy
“Second, people who live in Israel wonder the exact same things about you.”
And they actually have sources for that opinion. What a novelty.
We also have sources that a homosexual should be stoned.
Those sources you don’t like since it doesn’t fit the agenda.
PLLBR is Heshy’s imaginative satirical friend who doesn’t exist.
The writer of the letter obviously an Am Ha’aretz. He places of all of New Jersey as in-town, while calling Chicago out-of-town. Margate, Trenton and Vineland, NJ are proud out of town communities without day schools, one shul, and minimal amenities. Chicago is the mid-west Mecca for frum yidden with a multitude of schools, shuls, restaurants, yeshivos, kollilim and chashuva rabbonim. The author obviously doesn’t know a thing about the frum geography and didn’t deserve a reply.
How can any Jew be Frum and live outside of Israel?
Don’t you want to do mitzvot? Every 4 amot in Israel is a Mitzvah. Mitzvot outside of Israel only count for half as much.
Come home, and live in a place for real frum people.
The thing about the sixes… It’s the ones that don’t admit to being sixes that being the real problems to the frum communities.
Chicago??!! Home to Skokie!
“Trenton and Vineland, NJ are proud out of town communities without day schools, one shul”
I am unaware of ANY schul in Trenton. Please let me know where there is one.
I’ve never been there, but here’s the info:
Anshe Emes
1212 West State Street
Trenton, NJ 08618
Phone: (609) 396-4343
Source: http://www.jewishinjersey.com/Anshe-Emes.html
I replied previously with more info but somehow it got moderated out… I don’t what could possibly be inappropriate about posting shul info. Here’s a link for more info to Anshe Ames: http://www.jewishinjersey.com/Anshe-Emes.html
“You may notice that the only folks advocating for folks to move out of town are not really that frum, for instance the OU has a yearly community fair showcasing out of town communities and what they will give you if you move there. Most of the really frum people moving out of town are merely doing so to help more people move to the big cities, for instance kiruv workers tend to make their subjects so frum that they leave the places they grew up because it’s not frum enough for them there. Take a look at San Francisco, kiruv has decimated their frum population, everyone becomes frum and moves away because one cannot possibly be frum in such an out of town place.”
Is this a serious paragraph?
This person who wrote the letter has their head so far up their own butt. I’ve lived in brooklyn all my life (I’m 22), flatbush and wherever has become increasingly more unbearable to live in. Its over crowded, no parking anywhere, and the people just suck. We have so much judgement and lack of achdus that it makes me want to be LESS frum. I dont think that by wanting to live out of town, which i plan to, makes me any less of a frum jew. I dont think it makes you off the derech for wanting to live in an affordable house, and in a community thats more open. I know people that have also lived in brooklyn their whole life and they arent so frum anymore. I cant say i blame them. Its people like this one that makes me re-consider my values.