Dear R’ Heshy,
Seeing as how you have such a learned, balanced and thoughtful outlook on life, and seeing as how your readership has the same; I am coming back to you with another shaila which has bothered me since leaving the fold.
When I was in kollel, my chashuva fellow kollel folks and I spent an inordinate amount of time discussing whether it’s mutar to lie to get onto government programs. The prevailing view was that although the gemara in Bava Kama says that you have to follow the laws of the land, the rishonim qualify that (and who could blame them for doing so?) and limit this halacha to countries that have just laws. But as anyone who has seen the recent spate of unjust rulings in this country against ehrliche, frum yidden knows, a yid can’t get a fair trial in this country and this country, while it is a country of chessed, is not a just one.
So while we were fairly certain that we’re allowed to hide certain information that would make it difficult for us to get onto programs that weren’t designed for us, not many wanted to take the plunge. That’s when we discovered the beauty of asking a rav, once you ask a rav all ambiguity is gone, you don’t have to waste a whole first seder on the question, you don’t have to be a bigger lamdan than the guy who says you’re not allowed to lie, you just rely on the rav and you have a clear conscience.
So I’m sure you know that here in Lakewood there are some rabbonim who are known as the Blackmarketer rabbis who will, for the right price (no they don’t take the money for themselves, it’s for their shuls!) will give any heter needed. I know someone who even went for a heter to rob a bank, but that was taking things a bit too far.
Now that I am OTD though I’m left with a dilemma; I see that all these rabbonim are getting arrested one by one which tells me that the goyim don’t recognize the truth of Jewish supremacy, which is the basis for most of the kulas which allow this wholesale stealing; so where do I go now for heterim to steal? Are my only two options to be frum or avoid stealing?
Sincerely,
Shragi
You speak the emes Shragi,
You bring up a question that took up many a second seder in the gimmel shiur of my yeshiva days. Most poskim tend to agree that the laws of the land are inherently unjust when a Democrat is in power. If you’re frum and ehrliche, you understand that Liberalism is not only a mental disorder, but a politically correct way to grab power from the Jews. All one needs to do is look at the current president and his henchmen who have begun to outright attack frum Jews on a daily basis for all that they stand for. The attempted ban on bris milah by claiming it is cruel is the same exact thing that antisemitic folks in Europe have been trying to do with shechitah. Just look at the daily news articles from the liberal media and you’re likely to realize that we live in an unjust country and not only do we not have to hold by dina d’malchusei dina, but my rabbonom held that you are obligated to break unjust laws.
I don’t like the fact you used the terminology “lie”, is it a lie when it is our children’s education at stake. Why should public schools get all the money? Is that just? Is it just that vouchers are always voted down? Is it just that the government doesn’t support yeshivos and yet expects us to be “honest” on our tax returns?
While I’m glad you brought up this topic, I’m not really sure if it’s a debate. I understand that modern “orthodoxy” is of the opinion that Torah followers must follow the law of the land, but it’s easy to say when you were willing to put your Judaism on the line by sending your children to schools that teach secular subjects. In the yeshivishe velt it’s never been a debate, in fact, many of my fellow yeshivish an d chassidish friends would be more than happy to brag to you about their “lies” and embellishments to get into government programs. In many circles, this bragging is not only a sense of pride, but also considered a mitzvah.
There exists a database and listserve for those interested in defying the unjust dinim of America, it’s been quite important these days for us to stick together and be strong against this rapidly degenerating country. Mesirah has become a true problem and many supposedly frum people are advocating that the police be brought in on internal affairs, something that really irks me to the very essence of my being.
I hope this answered your question and put to death any feelings of anxiety over stealing, unfortunately, being Off The Derech requires you to become a liberal – commie who is very honest, my the eibishter guide you back to the path of the righteous.
Please send your shayala’s to frumsatire@gmail.com
Find out more on 4torah.com
I know this is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but it’s not funny when an entire segment of society is living above the law, draining our resources, and then calling it “G-d ordained” because their Rav blessed such behavior. If you want to eat, get an education and WORK! If you want ten kids, get an education and WORK! If you want to send those ten kids to private school, get an education and WORK! Jews are constantly whining that the goyim are trashing them, but in fact, when a stereotype is reality, it ceases to be a stereotype and becomes a statistical fact.
Rivka, I’m not sure this is tongue and cheek, I know the title of the site is satire, but many of my peers do hold that Torah lishmah is the highest level one can achieve and that taking what is rightfully theirs from the government be considered a mitzvah even more than that of pidyon shviyim for convicted s-x offenders.
Definitely the biggest mitzvah to support kollel yungeleit, no matter the means.
“I hope this answered your question and put to death any feelings of anxiety over stealing”
lol.
“and limit this halacha to countries that have just laws”
a null set
“But as anyone who has seen the recent spate of unjust rulings in this country against ehrliche, frum yidden”
How about unjust rulings against human beings?
“but my rabbonom held that you are obligated to break unjust laws”
Damn straight. Ein shaliah l’davar averah.
“Why should public schools get all the money? Is that just?”
Hell no!!!
At this point I can imagine you and all of your rationlist buddies going out in the middle of the night with pitchforks and lanterns ready to make trouble.
Ouch!
contrary to what some of you may believe MOST frum people feel that it isnt an option to send their children to public school.
once you are paying full private tuition and are not a millionaire you dont really have a choice about other programs.
I cant wait for the day when the rabbis finally have balls and tell all the parents in town to register their children to public school and then see how fast vouchers will come back. I would be the first one to register my children.
why do you need a rabbi?
If you mean it, find your own set of balls and do it grass-roots.
> MOST frum people feel that it isnt an option to send their children to public school.
And that makes it true?
> all the parents in town to register their children to public school and then see how fast vouchers will come back.
This nonsense again? Sending all of the kids in yeshiva to public school would not force the government to give out vouchers, even if there weren’t constitutional issues. NYC, which has the largest Jewish population in the country, has about a million kids in public school. There are what, maybe 50,000 kids in yeshivas? That’s only a 5% increase. That one to two kids extra per class of thirty kids.
The flaw with your analysis is that religious Jews for the most part live together. What would the effect be if Lakewood, Brooklyn and other densely populated areas would enroll in public school? Certainly, more than 1 or 2 kids per class.
They would be bused to other districts until sufficient infrastructure was put in place to handle the new students .
The school system would have to scramble for a few months, but the notion that it would be overwhelmed and forced to support yeshivos through vouchers is silly.
location, location , location. i don’t know lakewood, but i do know brooklyn has no space for its public school students as it is. if the yeshiva students flooded the public school system here, they would be forced to open up new locations- most likely in former yeshivot. and yes, between renting the yeshiva buildings, removing all religious symbols and putting up gates on all windows, it would not be cheap, but certainly would be interesting and, IMO, FANTASTIC for all the families involved.
Thank you so much R Heshy, you reminded me why I put my faith in your shailos u’tshuvos ability.
Heshy, you did a much better job that I could on this response. I agree with every word you said. Lying for the Lord is a well know religious tradition. That’s why Telzers would get government grants to publish “research” papers on Talmudic scholarship in “scholarly journals.”
Given that the velt was created for the purposes of learning toirah, it’s natural for us to use the velt’s resources for that purpose. Does the cow ask the grass for permission before grazing? Does the bee pay taxes for the pollen? Why should bocherim hold by a higher standard?
According to the Telz transcripts, the son of the latest rosh yeshiva to die, the one who leins the haftorah, is actually an instructor for Jewish History.
Dear ADMOR Heshy AMVSh:
Please don’t deprive us and provide us a resource list of rabonim who sell these fabulous hets (hopefully beaver and shtuff) and kindly specify which take food stamps (coffee is expensive) and credit cards.
Sincerely
Remember, the chillul hashem is not the action, it’s letting the general public find out the action occurred.
Heshy, you have outdone yourself this time. My envious compliments. Have you considered a series called heter yomi whose 5-year cycle covers the entire US penal code.
When was
Keep it up
Frauds & phonies’
When was the last time a modox turned down an entitled govt program ?
Go into any gas station
and ask who informs them if and when they undercharge?
They’ll say the black hats
is anonymous (last comment) saying that modox run for govt programs and black hat crowd is honest if gas stations charge wrong amount and they will inform them that they owe the gas stations money? who wouldnt turn down an entitled assistant but who qualifies? only thsose making very little money or working off the books! is it assur to not get married legally and then have ur wife collect food stamps and medicaid if shes not making enough?? thats STRAIGHT ROBBERY!! SHAME ON ALL OF YOU THIEVES WHO LIE TO THE GOVT TO STEAL MONEY!!!!!!!!! YES….YOURE NOT GOING TO RUN AWAY FROM HELL FOR THIS ONE..WOULDNT GOD AGREE?
You guys are focusing on stereotypes. Judge people, sure, but judge them as individuals.
I just met a friend here in Brooklyn and he told me that there will be a rally at the Israeli parade against yeshivoth that are allowing their students to march in the parade alongside the gay group. They made signs reading, “shame on yeshivoth who force their kids to march with homosexuals! Is it a wonder why their kids are molested! Freaky sign. They plan their rally near the neturei karta protesters at 60 street and 5 th ave. I got to see this.
Great post and great responses! Shame on the rest of us for following the rules!