If a man is seen walking with his wife, it will clearly lead the holy yahoos walking on their way to mikvah or beis medrash to surmise that the wanton couple have sex once a month, between pregnancies. Just the thought of the existence of sexuality might lead to burning of busses or raping of gentile women. To prevent these terrible acts of kiddush hashem (after all, it is done to sanctify G-d’s will as defined by themselves), better to keep women locked away from sunlight and air. It’s for their own good. The holy men can get their rocks off at the aforementioned mikvah or beis medrash.
“rabinnical court of orthodox communities in eretz yisroel” – can you GET a more generic name than that?!?
Why don’t I open up an organization called “the voice of all jews” and then print nice letterhead and write whatever I want on that, and everyone will have to listen to me!
That is one of the chasidic groups in the area of Rechov Shmuel Havi. That means they are close to the area of Sanz-Klausenburger Hasidim. This gives them a serious prestige problem. Because the last rebbi of Sanz-Klausenburger was from what I can tell was real talmid chacham as opposed to the lunatics that are other chasidic rebbis today. This should have placed Sanz-Klausenburger Hasidim perhaps on top the hierarchy but Toldot and Ger also had some talmidie chachimim. (I actually saw a Talmudic pamphlet Ger put out of some learning they were doing (some from ebbis in their yeshivot and some from bachurim) and it was decent. Also Ger started a few years ago doing a lot of Gemara with little depth in order to stop a lot of the nonsense that goes with pseudo depth in the other yeshivot. So Ger was making some very good progress.) At any rate this left the smaller groups on the bottom of the pecking order. This leaves them with one option and one option alone that could possible propel them to the center of attention–making a new dynamic chumra. This is nothing to sneeze at. This is how the separation on buses started. This could grow into a world wide chumra. It is very cleaver move on the part of this particular group. this way they get to be on the top without actually having to learn any Gemara which after all is hard to learn and takes time. and effort. I sympathize with people that want prestige but cant spend the time learning to actually become scholars.
Besides, while you’re at it we’ve got lots of more takanos. How about the husband and wife not staying in the same house during her period? Or why not disallowing women from coming to shul? Maybe we should ban women from leaving the house altogether? No school, no work, just stay at home and make babies. Her own home of course because her husband has to live somewhere else…
This is actually much crazier than Sharia as ruled on by the five traditional schools of Muslim jurisprudence. But that’s only to be expected.
Unlike Halacha, Sharia had to be an working code of law in actual countries. And it has been for centuries. Much of halacha is completely theoretical, made up by people who were arguing in a vacuum about things they would never have to implement in the real world, or at most not outside of their own little ghettos which existed in countries that didn’t have to operate under those rules.
“Halacha” as we know it today was never EVER the law in any country on Earth. Not one. Not at all.
It was developed in diaspora communities. The authors never had to deal with the realities of running a nation or even a decent sized city-state.
The Mishnah? Invented and collected later.
The commentaries on it? Later and more removed from any putative real-world application.
Arachonim, Rishonim and so on? Even later.
Shulan Aruch? A Reader’s Digest version many centuries after the fact.
Family traditions that we are absolutely sure go back unaltered to Moses? Nigga please.
By contrast the legal traditions known as Sharia were the primary system of jurisprudence in the Muslim world. They have evolved. There have been splits. But Sharia has been used to successfully satisfy the legal needs of hundreds of millions of people over centuries.
Those are the simple facts. You may not like them. They are still true.
Yes, sharia law is the envy of civilized nations all over the world.
Whether or not there was an entire country that was governed by Halacha is irrelevant, because there have always been Halachic communities. And all of the Responsa deal with the very specific application of the law within these communities.
I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are ignorant and not willfully distorting the truth. Open up the Shu”t of Rosh, the Rashba, Rambam, etc. and you will find that they dealt very much with realities of day to day life and not with theories. Perhaps not of a large state. But by large communities. And it has always been that way, as is obvious to anyone who studies Halacha by actually reading Halacha.
Nuran: You really are quite ignorant. Maybe you should take a break from the stupid philosophy books and find out a little of the real world.
The Jewish communities in the diaspora were often self governed under authority of the local ruler, and were governed according to halacha. This included tax and police powers.
This was true in Bavel, where the reish galusa governed the Jewish community, and true in many communities in Europe, even very recently.
Quite right – although the period of the Geonim was the first time that this happened. Thus Nuran is correct in saying that it was never applied to a nation. The Reish Galuta always had to answer to the Caliphate, and the communities in Europe certainly lacked political autonomy.
That’s not to say that halacha couldn’t be applied to a nation – though it would require major changes, and even so, I doubt it would turn out all that well. Better a liberal democracy than a theocracy.
What are you talking about? Wherever the Jews had autonomy (which was pretty much everywhere) until about 250-300 years ago they governed themselves with rabbinic courts, using halacha. That’s why the codes were written, if it was all theoretical they could have left it in the Talmud.
See my post where I show how a writer in 1665 assumes that the Jews will forever be subject to Talmudic law, as they are everywhere in his own time.
Gotta love these wackos.
When peace comes to Israel, I think most Israelis will want to give up Meah Shearim to the Palestinians and be rid of these people once and for all. They don’t recognize the State anyway. Doesn’t matter who or what government they live under. they’ll just go on creeping backwards into the Middle Ages.
Why not? They’re happy to be the kind of Jew the Islamicists love. They’re anti-Zionist. They keep to themselves. They are willing to support Muslims killing Israelis. They’re perfect dhimmis
It’s gotta be a spoof, or else it was written by amateurs. The language just isn’t right.
The giveaway lines:
“Through our holy Torah it has become known to us that all the problems come from this …”
“Our righteous court is only one that has semichah since the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah.”
After many tragic occurrences (not upon us) we have decided to institute : that by the power of our holy Torah it has become known to us that All bad things come because women take walks with their husbands in the city. Therefore we have established that no man shall walk with his wife in the city and anyone who does so brings great evil upon himself and all the Jewish people. And let it be known that our beit din is the only one which has authority from the sanderin (anshei keneset hagedolah etc).
The bad grammar is not my fault. It is part of the text.i only wished that the sanhederin would have taught them a little Hebrew grammar along with legal power of life and death over us simple Jews.
I would break out laughing from the shear lunacy of this document if it was not so scary and serious and in fact just one of the long string of grandiose pronouncements that come out of mea shearim all the time and posted on the walls there and in Geulah. The scary thing is these lunatics are serious. They want power and i have seen personally what they do with it when they get it.
Also in case you did not get the problem here –there is no semicha after Hillel the second as stated openly in the Rambam. This whole thing is a brazed attempt to contradict the Rambam and all the Rishonim who wrote that there is not more semicha
I wasn’t as far off as I thought! I figured it must be me misreading – banning husbands and wives from taking walks together doesn’t make any sense. Turns out it was supposed to be stupid.
also in answer to A. Nuran and his contender. I cant answer for a lot of the Jewish communities in the diaspora. however i can say that i once read a book that had the translations of the city charters given to Jews from the polish government . These were the charter that as Jews were being kicked around Europe some polish princes decided to invite Jews to their realm. they did this by offering to Jews charters for their cities. every charter was different but one thing i noticed –that the authority was given to the home owner that paid the taxes, not to any rabbi. ever. rather among the rights given to the home owners was to bring in a rabbi of their choice if they wanted to. this book had the actual documents in polish and they were translated into Hebrew by some fellow in Hebrew university. Now I just want to add that these charters were in effect up until around 1820 in which time the czar nullified the power of the home owners and later this was done in Hungary also at which time the baali batim lost all power and rabbis contented that they had been the sole rulers for all of the period of the Diaspora and that was the beginner of the concept of ddaat Torah that in modern terms means the power assumed by rabbis to determine issues that are not stated in the shulchan aruch and rishonim.
However you are right to a large degree that in Morocco and other Arabic lands much more power was given to the local rabbis by the local prince.
This mean in plain English that in eastern Europe the power of rabbis was limited by the fact that if the home owners did not like him they could get rid of him in a split second. One proclamation on a wall about women walking in the street with their husband would be enough for him to have to start looking for another job.
Yes, I never claimed that the power was given to the rabbis. The reish galusa was not necessarily a rabbi. But, the communities used to hire a rabbi, and the communities at least pretended they were following halacha.
My contention was primarily with the stated notion that “much of halacha is completely theoretical, made up by people who were arguing in a vacuum about things they would never have to implement in the real world.” That is not true.
Sharia and ruthless dictators are what is required to run most arab countries. Just look at where Iraq, Libya, Egypt and eventually Syria are headed without an iron fist to govern over them. Democracy simply doesn’t work in some parts of the world. The sooner America and Europe realize this, the better.
Again I don’t believe this is realy from them.
A) Halacha clearly says u can walk with your wife even if she’s a nidda (but THEN if possible there should be other ppl around to make sure they’ll control themselves from touching each other)
B) No legit beis din will say listen to us, cuz we r the only real beis din.
C) It would of been in every paper.
D) It’s on frum satire.
I think those are 4 good reasons that prove that heshy or one of his friends made it up themselves.
“Yes, I never claimed that the power was given to the rabbis. ”
But you would be right if you meant that power was given by the baali batim to decide issues of gitin and kidushin and food issues. and in fact this is the exact type of power given to the rabanut in Israel which i have to admit evokes some respect from me.
(it is very hard for me to respect any orthodox rabbis because in America they are frauds–pretending knowledge that they don’t have. but in Israel any rav has to pass rigorous exams so i have to respect them for their halacha knowledge even if they don’t have Talmudic knowledge.)
You wrote “The reish galusa was not necessarily a rabbi. ”
That is a great point and in fact this is the only source of legitimacy the rambam gives to a rabbis– i.e. when he receives power of decision making from the Reish Galuta the recognized secular authority. This is a very important point. Because in Europe that is how rabbis did have power–from the Jewish home owners that had hired him and it is also the source of authority in Israel of the rabanut that is awing of the secular Israeli government
Me and two friends sat down and bekoach beer’osainu noda lanu that all fighting in the world happens when people are sexually frustrated.
We decreed that every man and woman walking separately pair up with someone they from the opposite gender.
Anyone who doesn’t is causing evil upon himself and the entire world.
We dont have unbroken semicha from the time of the anshei knesses hagedolah, but we do have an unbroken chain ancestors who had sex
Um, peace out.
Me and two friends sat down and bekoach beer’osainu noda lanu that all fighting in the world happens when people are s*xually frustrated.
We decreed that every man and woman walking separately pair up with someone they from the opposite gender.
Anyone who doesn’t is causing evil upon himself and the entire world.
We dont have unbroken semicha from the time of the anshei knesses hagedolah, but we do have an unbroken chain ancestors who had s*x
Um, peace out.
Instead walk with someone else’s wife or with a single woman.
If a man is seen walking with his wife, it will clearly lead the holy yahoos walking on their way to mikvah or beis medrash to surmise that the wanton couple have sex once a month, between pregnancies. Just the thought of the existence of sexuality might lead to burning of busses or raping of gentile women. To prevent these terrible acts of kiddush hashem (after all, it is done to sanctify G-d’s will as defined by themselves), better to keep women locked away from sunlight and air. It’s for their own good. The holy men can get their rocks off at the aforementioned mikvah or beis medrash.
“rabinnical court of orthodox communities in eretz yisroel” – can you GET a more generic name than that?!?
Why don’t I open up an organization called “the voice of all jews” and then print nice letterhead and write whatever I want on that, and everyone will have to listen to me!
I don’t believe this is real. FS probably wrote/made it up.
That is one of the chasidic groups in the area of Rechov Shmuel Havi. That means they are close to the area of Sanz-Klausenburger Hasidim. This gives them a serious prestige problem. Because the last rebbi of Sanz-Klausenburger was from what I can tell was real talmid chacham as opposed to the lunatics that are other chasidic rebbis today. This should have placed Sanz-Klausenburger Hasidim perhaps on top the hierarchy but Toldot and Ger also had some talmidie chachimim. (I actually saw a Talmudic pamphlet Ger put out of some learning they were doing (some from ebbis in their yeshivot and some from bachurim) and it was decent. Also Ger started a few years ago doing a lot of Gemara with little depth in order to stop a lot of the nonsense that goes with pseudo depth in the other yeshivot. So Ger was making some very good progress.) At any rate this left the smaller groups on the bottom of the pecking order. This leaves them with one option and one option alone that could possible propel them to the center of attention–making a new dynamic chumra. This is nothing to sneeze at. This is how the separation on buses started. This could grow into a world wide chumra. It is very cleaver move on the part of this particular group. this way they get to be on the top without actually having to learn any Gemara which after all is hard to learn and takes time. and effort. I sympathize with people that want prestige but cant spend the time learning to actually become scholars.
Wow, is that really how it works?
Me and two friends sat down and bekoach beer’osainu noda lanu that all fighting in the world happens when people are sexually frustrated.
We decreed that every man and woman walking separately pair up with someone they from the opposite gender.
Anyone who doesn’t is causing evil upon himself and the entire world.
We dont have unbroken semicha from the time of the anshei knesses hagedolah, but we do have an unbroken chain ancestors who had sex
Um, peace out.
Me and two friends sat down and bekoach beer’osainu noda lanu that all fighting in the world happens when people are s*xually frustrated.
We decreed that every man and woman walking separately pair up with someone they from the opposite gender.
Anyone who doesn’t is causing evil upon himself and the entire world.
We dont have unbroken semicha from the time of the anshei knesses hagedolah, but we do have an unbroken chain ancestors who had s*x
Um, peace out.
funny 🙂
the flying f*ck
Why do men always need to be around their wives 24/7. Its unhealthy for marriage and let people have their space.
Who said anything about 24/7?
Besides, while you’re at it we’ve got lots of more takanos. How about the husband and wife not staying in the same house during her period? Or why not disallowing women from coming to shul? Maybe we should ban women from leaving the house altogether? No school, no work, just stay at home and make babies. Her own home of course because her husband has to live somewhere else…
It appears that shaharia law is being imposed in Israel now also.
This is actually much crazier than Sharia as ruled on by the five traditional schools of Muslim jurisprudence. But that’s only to be expected.
Unlike Halacha, Sharia had to be an working code of law in actual countries. And it has been for centuries. Much of halacha is completely theoretical, made up by people who were arguing in a vacuum about things they would never have to implement in the real world, or at most not outside of their own little ghettos which existed in countries that didn’t have to operate under those rules.
Wtf? Have you studied halacha or just read about it on a blog?
WTF yourself.
“Halacha” as we know it today was never EVER the law in any country on Earth. Not one. Not at all.
It was developed in diaspora communities. The authors never had to deal with the realities of running a nation or even a decent sized city-state.
The Mishnah? Invented and collected later.
The commentaries on it? Later and more removed from any putative real-world application.
Arachonim, Rishonim and so on? Even later.
Shulan Aruch? A Reader’s Digest version many centuries after the fact.
Family traditions that we are absolutely sure go back unaltered to Moses? Nigga please.
By contrast the legal traditions known as Sharia were the primary system of jurisprudence in the Muslim world. They have evolved. There have been splits. But Sharia has been used to successfully satisfy the legal needs of hundreds of millions of people over centuries.
Those are the simple facts. You may not like them. They are still true.
Yes, sharia law is the envy of civilized nations all over the world.
Whether or not there was an entire country that was governed by Halacha is irrelevant, because there have always been Halachic communities. And all of the Responsa deal with the very specific application of the law within these communities.
I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are ignorant and not willfully distorting the truth. Open up the Shu”t of Rosh, the Rashba, Rambam, etc. and you will find that they dealt very much with realities of day to day life and not with theories. Perhaps not of a large state. But by large communities. And it has always been that way, as is obvious to anyone who studies Halacha by actually reading Halacha.
Nuran: You really are quite ignorant. Maybe you should take a break from the stupid philosophy books and find out a little of the real world.
The Jewish communities in the diaspora were often self governed under authority of the local ruler, and were governed according to halacha. This included tax and police powers.
This was true in Bavel, where the reish galusa governed the Jewish community, and true in many communities in Europe, even very recently.
Quite right – although the period of the Geonim was the first time that this happened. Thus Nuran is correct in saying that it was never applied to a nation. The Reish Galuta always had to answer to the Caliphate, and the communities in Europe certainly lacked political autonomy.
That’s not to say that halacha couldn’t be applied to a nation – though it would require major changes, and even so, I doubt it would turn out all that well. Better a liberal democracy than a theocracy.
What are you talking about? Wherever the Jews had autonomy (which was pretty much everywhere) until about 250-300 years ago they governed themselves with rabbinic courts, using halacha. That’s why the codes were written, if it was all theoretical they could have left it in the Talmud.
See my post where I show how a writer in 1665 assumes that the Jews will forever be subject to Talmudic law, as they are everywhere in his own time.
Gotta love these wackos.
When peace comes to Israel, I think most Israelis will want to give up Meah Shearim to the Palestinians and be rid of these people once and for all. They don’t recognize the State anyway. Doesn’t matter who or what government they live under. they’ll just go on creeping backwards into the Middle Ages.
Avrumy,
As much as I don’t agree with this Chumra, I would never wish something like that on any Jew.
Why not? They’re happy to be the kind of Jew the Islamicists love. They’re anti-Zionist. They keep to themselves. They are willing to support Muslims killing Israelis. They’re perfect dhimmis
And, oh yes, they don’t want an equal share in governing the country they live in. They’re happy to pack themselves into ghettos.
it’s interesting in english it says “…orthodox communities…” but in hebrew it says “…commnity of the fearful…”
It’s gotta be a spoof, or else it was written by amateurs. The language just isn’t right.
The giveaway lines:
“Through our holy Torah it has become known to us that all the problems come from this …”
“Our righteous court is only one that has semichah since the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah.”
OCCUPY!!!!!!!!
I don’t suppose one of you big, strong, hansome yeshiva bochers could do a quick translation for a baby BT?
Hebrew’s all backwards and hard sometimes…
translation
After many tragic occurrences (not upon us) we have decided to institute : that by the power of our holy Torah it has become known to us that All bad things come because women take walks with their husbands in the city. Therefore we have established that no man shall walk with his wife in the city and anyone who does so brings great evil upon himself and all the Jewish people. And let it be known that our beit din is the only one which has authority from the sanderin (anshei keneset hagedolah etc).
The bad grammar is not my fault. It is part of the text.i only wished that the sanhederin would have taught them a little Hebrew grammar along with legal power of life and death over us simple Jews.
I would break out laughing from the shear lunacy of this document if it was not so scary and serious and in fact just one of the long string of grandiose pronouncements that come out of mea shearim all the time and posted on the walls there and in Geulah. The scary thing is these lunatics are serious. They want power and i have seen personally what they do with it when they get it.
Also in case you did not get the problem here –there is no semicha after Hillel the second as stated openly in the Rambam. This whole thing is a brazed attempt to contradict the Rambam and all the Rishonim who wrote that there is not more semicha
Why thank you, kind Sir!
I wasn’t as far off as I thought! I figured it must be me misreading – banning husbands and wives from taking walks together doesn’t make any sense. Turns out it was supposed to be stupid.
Why am I doing this BT thang, again?
also in answer to A. Nuran and his contender. I cant answer for a lot of the Jewish communities in the diaspora. however i can say that i once read a book that had the translations of the city charters given to Jews from the polish government . These were the charter that as Jews were being kicked around Europe some polish princes decided to invite Jews to their realm. they did this by offering to Jews charters for their cities. every charter was different but one thing i noticed –that the authority was given to the home owner that paid the taxes, not to any rabbi. ever. rather among the rights given to the home owners was to bring in a rabbi of their choice if they wanted to. this book had the actual documents in polish and they were translated into Hebrew by some fellow in Hebrew university. Now I just want to add that these charters were in effect up until around 1820 in which time the czar nullified the power of the home owners and later this was done in Hungary also at which time the baali batim lost all power and rabbis contented that they had been the sole rulers for all of the period of the Diaspora and that was the beginner of the concept of ddaat Torah that in modern terms means the power assumed by rabbis to determine issues that are not stated in the shulchan aruch and rishonim.
However you are right to a large degree that in Morocco and other Arabic lands much more power was given to the local rabbis by the local prince.
This mean in plain English that in eastern Europe the power of rabbis was limited by the fact that if the home owners did not like him they could get rid of him in a split second. One proclamation on a wall about women walking in the street with their husband would be enough for him to have to start looking for another job.
Yes, I never claimed that the power was given to the rabbis. The reish galusa was not necessarily a rabbi. But, the communities used to hire a rabbi, and the communities at least pretended they were following halacha.
Same here.
My contention was primarily with the stated notion that “much of halacha is completely theoretical, made up by people who were arguing in a vacuum about things they would never have to implement in the real world.” That is not true.
I’m quite sure that posted chumra is a fake.
Sharia and ruthless dictators are what is required to run most arab countries. Just look at where Iraq, Libya, Egypt and eventually Syria are headed without an iron fist to govern over them. Democracy simply doesn’t work in some parts of the world. The sooner America and Europe realize this, the better.
This can’t be real
Again I don’t believe this is realy from them.
A) Halacha clearly says u can walk with your wife even if she’s a nidda (but THEN if possible there should be other ppl around to make sure they’ll control themselves from touching each other)
B) No legit beis din will say listen to us, cuz we r the only real beis din.
C) It would of been in every paper.
D) It’s on frum satire.
I think those are 4 good reasons that prove that heshy or one of his friends made it up themselves.
“Yes, I never claimed that the power was given to the rabbis. ”
But you would be right if you meant that power was given by the baali batim to decide issues of gitin and kidushin and food issues. and in fact this is the exact type of power given to the rabanut in Israel which i have to admit evokes some respect from me.
(it is very hard for me to respect any orthodox rabbis because in America they are frauds–pretending knowledge that they don’t have. but in Israel any rav has to pass rigorous exams so i have to respect them for their halacha knowledge even if they don’t have Talmudic knowledge.)
You wrote “The reish galusa was not necessarily a rabbi. ”
That is a great point and in fact this is the only source of legitimacy the rambam gives to a rabbis– i.e. when he receives power of decision making from the Reish Galuta the recognized secular authority. This is a very important point. Because in Europe that is how rabbis did have power–from the Jewish home owners that had hired him and it is also the source of authority in Israel of the rabanut that is awing of the secular Israeli government