This was sent to me via email and she gave me permission to post it:
So I watch all your videos on youtube and I love them, you are quite the comedian. I need your opinion on something because I don’t have anyone else to ask. I started dating a MO yeshiva guy about 7 months ago and it has gotten pretty serious, however I am Catholic. I was under the impression from what I have read that he technically shouldn’t be dating me, but when I broach this subject with him he kind of brushes it under the table and I never get a straight answer.
I know that he would never marry anyone who wasn’t Jewish, but does that also apply to dating?
I am so confused by him also because he talks a lot about us having kids together and he makes all these plans for the future with me, but then he will turn around and make jokes that he better be coming to my wedding when I marry a nice christian boy. I’ve told him that I would convert if it were to ever come to that and raise a family Jewish, and he will be really supporting one day, and the next telling me not to convert. What the f! I’m hoping you can help me out here, at least shed a little insight on this situation. Thanks!
sounds like the guy is quite confused/full of…/dishonost, with you, and probably with himself too.
my opinion, not worth it.
as far as an understanding of the situation, i’ll leave that to the other commenters.
I think he’s taking advantage of the shiksa factor.
Ha I’m pretty sure I have a heck of a lot more to offer a guy than just my non-Jewish appeal.
Phil is also an idiot, so please keep that in mind.
This guy sounds like a job for a psychologist or counselor. Not in the “he’s crazy” sense, but just to have someone guide him through his own interpersonal issues vis-a-vis relationships, commitment and how he identifies Jewishly. If you’re really serious about the relationship, I would definitely confront him with this idea. You sound like you’re seriously committed to marry this guy with the choices that you’ve spoken about, including kids and converting, and he’s waffling back & forth. I would hold off on that until he speaks with a therapist about any ideas of actual marriage. I really hope that this is the case and it’s not just him leading you on for the sake of sex.
PS: I know that instability with self-identity, some chaos in interpersonal relationships and mood variability might signal borderline personality disorder. It’s probably not bad enough to be clinical in his case but it’s something to watch out for. I don’t know enough to know in this case and I’m willing to admit it.
He is simply trying to get laid. This is what men do. Grow up!!
Agreed!
not true.
So true, but that does not exclude a possibility of something deeper.
I’m with GG. Run, don’t walk from this guy and then find yourself a nice Christian boy.
its definitly not right, but what this guy does is his own bissuniss
HAHA Phil! I agree with him, most def.
He sounds pretty immature to me, he needs to grow up and figure out what he wants. You might find out that he’s just wasting your time, I’m sad to say.
He sounds like he’s not sure what to do. He sounds confused. he wants to be with you, but then also feels that he doesn’t want to make you change, and so he mentions the other option of being with someone else. I think it would be best to separate, he needs to figure things out.
Heshy, where do you get all these cool pics from?
Almost every image I put up comes from Google Images
It sounds like you need to get some convictions of your own. You’d stop being Catholic just to marry some guy who can’t even be honest with you? Maybe it’s time to start calling yourself atheist, agnostic…. anything but Christian. Because you’re certainly not acting like one, by denying Christ and by pandering to this ‘boyfriend’ in his delusions (and your own).
Wow. That’s unnecessarily mean.
I offered an honest opinion. I’m fairly sure it will be disregarded.
By “Catholic”, she probably means lapsed Catholic, which is kind of secular Jew without the ethnic connection (i.e. nothing for her, but her parents/grandparents might care).
Kinda like one of my friends in college, who I’m fairly certain has been to more Hillel events than Newman Center ones (the Catholic church on campus ), and he doesn’t even have any interest in becoming Jewish; just that his roommates are all Jewish.
Maybe the way her boy friend acted impressed her and she’s come to admire Judaism.
Sweet heart. I’m a big dreamer. And I’m a convert, for what its worth. I’m very idealistic. And given all of that, I only see this ending one way for you… with a broken heart. And I know you won’t listen to this advise, but walk away now and do yourself a favor. Or, feel free to come back here when your heart does get broken and we’ll help you through it.
I think i spelled advice wrong… I always do that :(. Sorry.
Blame it on reading and writing Hebrew all the time!
he really likes you and maybe even loves you but he has no intention of ever marrying you, and if it comes to that, he will break up with you. He is hanging with you for the thrill of breaking the rules or maybe he is genuinely questioning his beliefs, but if he still identifies as modern orthodox, and based on the stuff you have said here- he is never going to marry someone who isn’t Jewish. Sorry, but I totally know the type, and when it comes down to it they always always always marry a Jewish person. I’ve seen it happen again and again….just saw a friends 3 and a half year relationship and my brothers’s 2 year relationship end because of this very issue, and both those guys are now dating jews.
It’s not personal.. It’s just very very rare for someone who grew up modern orthodox to marry someone not jewish, even those who stop keeping many observances…of all the modern orthodox people and formerly MO people I know (between school and synagogue and jewish youth group- hundreds and hundreds of people) i’m the only one I know who ever did. Even most if not all of the “OTD”ers around here (jews no longer observant who grew up observent) who are married are married to jews. It’s a very strong cultural jewish belief.
baruch hashem
?’? ??????
sorry – that was “aim eloheem” in hebrew
sorry – that was “ain eloheem” in hebrew
My theory is that these OTD’s aren’t entirely sure that they’ve made the right choice in abandoning Jewish observance. They recognize intermarriage as a kind of watershed last straw–a point of no return, and they instinctively pull away from that.
‘Cause believe me, the ex-religious, secular Jewish girls don’t make any better spouses. If anything they flout traditional values more so than many nominally Christian gentiles, who are often not nearly as polemical in their approach to traditional values, and God.
Honey, listen to what AE is telling you, because she is telling you the pure truth.
Here’s what you’re up against. This boy spends all day, every day, in a school where they teach him that you aren’t quite human. If he reads a religious text called Tanya it’s been drilled into his head that the worst Jew has a special spiritual worth which you can never share. There are thousands of years of laws and pronouncements from religious authorities which are designed to keep him from even socializing with Gentiles. It’s to make sure he only marries an Orthodox Jew.
If he marries you he is damned for all eternity. Well, they call it “losing his portion of the World to Come”, but it comes to the same thing. If you marry his parents will treat him as if he is dead. Literally. They’ll follow the rituals for someone who has died and never speak of him again. Any children you have won’t even exist in their eyes, certainly not as part of their people.
He likes you. He may even love you. But in the he’d have to give up friends, family, tribe and G-d to be with you. And you probably just aren’t that important to him. He will have his fun and then abandon you after his “daring” fling. He will marry a nice Orthodox girl approved of and possibly selected by his parents. Oh, I’m sure he’ll think of you fondly. But everything is pointing in one direction. And that’s away from you.
Maybe I’m wrong. I’ve known Jewish boys who married their Gentile girls. Hell, I’m one of them. But this is what you’re up against. You can’t help loving him, at least not at the moment. From the bottom of my heart I pray that you don’t rely on him. Because he will almost certainly abandon you. Search your soul. Decide if you really want this relationship. If you do, then he will have to make a decision. Counseling may help if he’s open to it.
If he’s not willing or if he won’t seriously discuss the issues when you lay them out? Then you need to make what my wife calls “A Woman’s Decision” to cut your losses and give him up. Because he will only break both of your hearts.
Didnt she say she was willing to convert and raise the family Jewish….IF she converts i don’t see any problems arising……… the jewboy will marry the newly becoming Jewgirl.
People won’t consider her Jewish and they’ll kick her kids around at school.
Indeed. When some Orthodox sects don’t even consider BT to be “really” Jewish what hope does a convert have.
And even if she goes through the whole process she can have her conversion revoked at any time, without appeal, by a rabbi thousands of miles away who has never met her.
well, this subhuman idea, and revoking conversions, and discrimination against converts for that matter, are picking up on ideas that exist but aren’t mainstream. further, they don’t exist in the modern orthodox scene. you’ve been reading too many blogs….
but while the boy himself might be very accepting of a convert who lives next door, he might have a bias against personally marrying one. sort of like mixed-race marriages in society at large – most accept them, but most don’t do it themselves.
If he’s MO he’s probably not reading the Tanya.
Re: the Tanya. Yes, I believe that many Lubos are arrogant bigots (maybe not worse than other black hatters), but I have to speak up when people exaggerate the truth here.
Righteous gentiles, which the Tanya doesn’t define, belong to the level of kelipot nogah, which is the intermediate rung between the lowest level, and the nefesh haelokit.
An irreligious Jew, I’m talking about a knowledgeable type (not a tinok shenishboh), will be punished for their behavior, perhaps even lose their share in olam habah. Not so a righteous gentile.
Non-Jews who convert acquire a nefesh haelokit, according to Chabad.
Take what you will from this–I struggle with it, because I like other segments of Chabad Chassidus. These perspectives needn’t lead to misanthropic thinking, but in practice I think they often do.
the real question is does she change the tv channel for him on shabbos?
lol
Haha he makes this joke and calls me his shabbos slave
Hmm, From things like this, I am going to say you should tell him to give you a direct answer, or kick rocks. If Judaism intrigues you, you don’t need this guy to show you anything about it. Others will do so without using you for nookie in the process (stay away from the EJF folks as well). Why waste your emotions and time on a guy who does not seem to know where his head is at?
To be honest, when people fall in love they break all the rules. Nothing applies to them anymore. I had my heart broken by a very religious (on the outside) guy just because my mother didn’t go to the mikvah or he was embarrassed to introduce me to his family. And I was orthodox AND JEWISH…
any advice you get sweetie you will have to add up in your own heart and see what you want to do. It sounds like yes he does like you, but most of these relationships do end badly because the one with the power (in this case him) can’t be honest with himself, let alone you.
I do hope in my heart of hearts that he will do the right thing and sit you down and discuss with you the harsh realities of the situation. there is no black and white and our values sometimes change over time.
people say, oh you should never convert for someone but that’s a load of crap if you ask anyone who has converted because the only way they probably found out how awesome Judaism is was through the guy/girl they were dating.
Start being your own advocate and learning all you can about how Jews view intermarriage, inter-dating, and converts themselves.
especially orthodox ones.
xoxo and good luck!
aw, jess. his loss. anyone who would hold what my parents do or don’t do against me can take a walk.
Converting for a person is most likely a bad idea, especially if he is in fact just being slime like Phil and others have suggested.
But despite this warning, if she’s determined to have this guy [and she will pretty much be guaranteed to have to convert in this case], she should do it on your own and not involve or even notify him, as having him involved may cloud the process even more than it already is or put pressure on her one way or the other.
But, the rabbis will ask if she’s dating anyone Jewish and if she’s caught lying she will be blacklisted from converting. If she admits that she is, then he has to be involved. He’ll dump her.
There is a blacklist of conversions?
More or less, I read a story online of someone who couldn’t get an Orthodox mohel because she moved out of the community because they inherited a house 250 miles away. If you think about it, how much in the Orthodox community is done by references and word of mouth? Well, if you fall off the derech too bad, no one will vouch for you and it won’t matter if you still have papers. You need rabbis and others to vouch for you when you need referrals to an Orthodox mohel or get your kids into a school. The more Jewish an area you live in, the more they may just give you the benefit of the doubt. However, if you at least live in a Jewish neighborhood, then you should be able to get people to vouch for you.
No it isn’t so universally standardized. EJF was trying to do that and look how G-d took care of that nonesense….
But the halacha is that someone who is already married will be converted, but someone in a premarital relationship is generally discouraged. The idea is that the married couple is already “living in sin” so might as well make it better – not sure if an unmarried couple already, ahem, is considered married or premarital in this case. Maybe I’m oversimplifying, also the permanence of marriage increases the likelihood that the conversion will be sincere.
for money, an orthodox mohel will make the trip to wherever you are. don’t believe everything you read online.
So I wrote the letter to the editor and I wanted to thank all of you for your honest answers. It has given me a lot to think about. I’m not necessarily thinking about marriage right now, however I don’t see the point in being in any sort of committed relationship with someone when it can’t go anywhere. We also have not had sex yet, so I don’t think it is a matter of him using me for sex. Really, I just wanted an outside opinion, because other than him and his friends and family, I really do not know anyone who is orthodox to ask. I did bring all of this up to him yesterday and he said he is not on that spiritual of a level yet. I don’t quite understand what that means, but ok. Religion aside, I still love the guy but I don’t want to get up getting tossed aside when push comes to shove and he decides that he will only end up with someone Jewish. With regards to Pietru’s comment. I never said I was a devout Catholic or a practicing Catholic and since being with my boyfriend I have really come to love the Jewish religion, and culture really. I do believe in God. It’s kind of presumptuous to make that sort of a statement.
Well you didn’t originally mention the two points (a) that you’re not having sex, and (b) you’ve met his family. That really changes the dynamic of things, and I think people would respond differently. One of the greatest obstacles to the relationship isn’t the religion itself, but the fact the family/community will not approve of the marriage. If his How does his family feel about you?
If there’s regular sex, then he may just be taking advantage. Not saying that he doesn’t like you, or even love you, but it is possible that he might never marry you.
this guy just wants to fool around
I actually am the one who wrote the letter to the editor. Thank you all for your honest answers. I don’t have any friends who are Orthodox, so I didn’t have anyone to really talk to about this. I am not necessarily considering marriage at this point, however I don’t see the point of being in a committed relationship with someone that can’t ever go anywhere. I just don’t want to end up being tossed aside when push comes to shove. We haven’t had sex yet, so I don’t think it is a matter of him using me for sex. He is a genuinely good guy and I don’t think he would be malicious in trying to lead me on. I have educated myself on everything that pertains to interfaith dating/marriage, but when I recently asked him about it he said he is not on that kind of a spiritual level yet. I don’t quite know what that means, but ok. With regards to Pietru’s comments, I never said I was a devout Catholic, or a practicing Catholic. Over the time I have spent with him I have learned so much about the Jewish religion, and culture really, and have really come to love it. I do believe in God and it is kind of presumptuous to make that kind of a statement. Again, thank you everyone for your comments. I really appreciate it and it has given me a lot to think about.
If you really love him, you should test him: tell him that you want him to introduce you to his parents. If he says no, tell him you’ll leave him. He has to be honest to his parents, to himself, and to you. The issue here is whether or not you’ll be accepted into his family, even if you do convert. Sad, but true. Try it though.
I actually am the one who wrote the letter to the editor. Thank you all for your honest answers. I don’t have any friends who are orthodox, so I didn’t have anyone to really talk to about this. I am not necessarily considering marriage at this point, however I don’t see the point of being in a committed relationship with someone that can’t ever go anywhere. I just don’t want to end up being tossed aside when push comes to shove. We haven’t had sex yet, so I don’t think it is a matter of him using me for sex. He is a genuinely good guy and I don’t think he would be malicious in trying to lead me on. I have educated myself on everything that pertains to interfaith dating/marriage, but when I recently asked him about it he said he is not on that kind of a spiritual level yet. I don’t quite know what that means, but ok. With regards to Pietru’s comments, I never said I was a devout Catholic, or a practicing Catholic. Over the time I have spent with him I have learned so much about the Jewish religion, and culture really, and have really come to love it. I do believe in God and it is kind of presumptuous to make that kind of a statement. Again, thank you everyone for your comments. I really appreciate it and it has given me a lot to think about. p>
If he really loves you your relationship has a chance. There are serious challenges, and you have to understand the work involved. You do need to have a serious discussion with him. Yeah, I know. The words every man most fears are “Honey, we need to talk…” 🙂
Is he willing to introduce you to his family?
Has he met yours?
Do you understand what you’re taking on by considering a conversion to Judaism?
My wife was willing to fight for me, not just the family but my own dithering. Twenty years later we couldn’t love each other more. So it can be done, but it takes work and a lot of clarity in the beginning.
Whatever you decide, good luck and blessings on you.
Hesh, I’d love to get this girl’s email. I dated a man EXACTLY like this for over a year; she really has no idea what she’s in for…. Clearly I’m dying to talk to her — let me know if she’s up for it.
missmandy022@yahoo.com
Hahhaha, maybe she’s dating the same guy.
I am please, I am in a simliar situation only worse I am married to him already for reasons which as I can put it as was “built on sand” and He does the same only i am having sex with him……..
First I would confront him 1-on-1, if that doesnt work, tell him you dont want to see/talk to him for 2 weeks. At the same time call his friends/parents (whoever you know) and tell them the situation.
At the end 2 weeks he will have an answer. There is a good chance he will to never talk to you again, but if he does, you will know that hes serious.Basically what you are doing is making him confront it head on in the most severe way possible, which sucks for him, but atleast you will finally get a real answer.
(note: orthodox rabbis are extremely cautious of conversions for marriage, so if they will allow it, they will most likely take 2-3 years, just make sure you are ready to wait this long?)
I am the girl who wrote that letter to the editor
K let me respond to these comments
Im sorry, I keep trying to respond and nothing is showing up on this thread.
Thank you all for your honest answers. I don’t have any friends who are orthodox, so I didn’t have anyone to really talk to about this. I am not necessarily considering marriage at this point, however I don’t see the point of being in a committed relationship with someone that can’t ever go anywhere. I just don’t want to end up being tossed aside when push comes to shove.
Talking about marriage is a classic move that men do-CLASSIC. I guess you’re good in bed. Chuckles…. they used to pull that on me, too. I got sick of discovering my “boyfriends” were married or had a real girlfriend. I shut my knees and became shomer negiah a good 6 months before I even started thinking about converting… for THAT reason. I was sick of it. People will use anyone who lets them. It’s up to you to stand up for yourself or not.
Tru Dat
Besides for himself Who said he’s orthodox?
Your boyfriend is associated with the Orthodox Jewish community. But, he isn’t Orthodox if he’s going out with you.
Thank you all for your honest answers. I don’t have any friends who are Orthodox, or Jewish really, so I didn’t have anyone to talk to about this. I am not thinking about marriage at this point, however I don’t really see the point of being in a committed relationship with someone that can’t ever go anywhere. I just don’t want to be tossed aside so to speak when push comes to shove and he realizes that yeah, he may love me, but I’m not Jewish. We haven’t had sex yet, so I don’t think it is a matter of him using me for sex. He is a genuinely good guy and I don’t think he would be malicious in trying to lead me on, however I am not just going to pretend that I am completely oblivious to technically what he should or should not be doing as per his faith. When I asked him about all of this yesterday, he said that he is not on that kind of a spiritual level yet. I don’t quite understand that. With regards to Pietru’s comments, I never said I was a devout or practicing Catholic. Over the time I have spent with him, I have learned so much about Judaism, and the Jewish culture really, and have come to love and respect it. I do believe in God and it is kind of presumptuous to make that kind of a statement. Again, thank you everyone for your comments. I really appreciate it and it has given me a lot to think about.
We haven’t had sex yet, so I don’t think it is a matter of him using me for sex. He is a genuinely good guy and I don’t think he would be malicious in trying to lead me on. I have educated myself on everything that pertains to interfaith dating/marriage, but when I recently asked him about it he said he is not on that kind of a spiritual level yet. I don’t quite know what that means, but ok. I haven’t met his parents yet. I have met some of siblings and his friends all know about me. With regards to Pietru’s comments, I never said I was a devout Catholic, or a practicing Catholic. Over the time I have spent with him I have learned so much about the Jewish religion, and culture really, and have really come to love it. I do believe in God and it is kind of presumptuous to make that kind of a statement. Again, thank you everyone for your comments. I really appreciate it and it has given me a lot to think about.
I’m pretty sure it could be the same guy — that’s partly why I’d love to talk to her. Also, quite right that converting while dating is almost too hard — that blacklist vs. “convert as a package deal” thing is true. Aaaaand 2 – 3 years is right on, too.
The long and short of it is:
1. You’re in for a crapload of work and your faux-ortho bf certainly isn’t going to go in for that shit. I mean, even him dating you is testament to his laziness — you don’t hold him accountable like a Jewish girl would, so he doesn’t really have to do anything.
2. Say the stars align just right: you decide to convert and your guy waits the years it will take you to succeed. This isn’t perfect either. Sure you could be jewish, but are you HIS kind of Jewish? Is he still yours? And let’s not forget that (regrettably) a huge part of your current appeal is that you’re NOT Jewish.
I’m just trying to say that with these guys, there is no winning. He will marry a Jewish girl and you will have wasted time, energy, feelings, hope blah blah on this guy. This guy, by the way, is the same one who is currently getting a great deal while you’re just getting taken advantage of. Do yourself a favor: cut and run and do it first — before you give this bog any more reasons to think of you as an easy target.
Just my opinion, though. 🙂
This shiksa is clearly just for practice!
http://materialmaidel.blogspot.com/2010/01/is-this-shiksa-just-for-practice.html
Haha yeah clearly I am such the seductress who has nothing going for her but a nice body and killer moves in the sack.
I thought you said you’re not sleeping with him?
Michal,
Enough with the “sleeping with” thing, sounds like the guy’s going to a slumber party or camping. Call a spade a spade.
I’m not. I was being sarcastic with regards to the shiksa comment. I mean that regardless of how physically attracted he may be to me, I know I have a lot more going for me that he appreciates. That he isn’t soley attracted to me in a want to jump your bones kind of way.
youre a great comedian….. and thats why im asking you for advice on my serious religious/relationship issue….huh!?
and even if this email is real/from a real person, what’s her question? please shed light…should i continue dating a poser!?
I’d say….run. Run as fast and as far as you can. This man is NOT serious about you. Don’t waste years of your life hoping that one day he will come around. I know I’m like the millionth person to say this, but he sounds confused and like he is using you…anyone that flip/flops (one day in favor of conversion and marriage and the next day the opposite) is not someone you stay to plan a life with…is there a 1% possibility that he may realize what a catch you are, have you convert and become domiciled with you as his wifey? Sure…but do you want to bank your heart and future on a 1% chance? Methinks no
He sounds confused, sure. But I don’t think he’s not serious about you and I don’t think he is using you. Sadly, Judaism has very tough consequences for making the decision to have a committed relationship with you. Would you really want him to make a decision that will have such serious outcomes? If his family cuts him off, will you be able to live with the pressure of that?
I’m not suggesting you break up with him, but YOU need to think seriously of what a continued relationship will mean to you. But, it’s sounds like you are already thinking in that direction with your discussion of conversion.
Hey, how many people should say that he just want the pink? I don’t think we’ve had enough people say that.
We haven’t had sex yet, so I don’t think it is about that.
Ok, now, I really do think this is Heshy…
Laugh out loud!
—
Contrary to the overwhelming majority of this board, a lot of guys want more from a relationship than just physical pleasure.
She should tell this self-described “modern orthodox” boy, that he is a terrible Jew, and if he were a man, he’d make a choice. Either take the girl, or keep the faith.
If you convert for him and it doesn’t work out could you keep a kosher home, a mitzvah observant life and follow Halacha/ Jewish law? If you really are interested in Judiasm then talk to a rabbi. Your bf cannot tell you to convert and he knows that he can’t it’s got to be your decision. He is not supposed to be having intimate moments with you and is endangering his connection with G-d. Make your decision wether you want to convert or not let him decide if he will wait for you because during the process you two may not be in contact. Don’t let it go on like this you’ve got to protect your heart and his traditions which I’m sure mean the world to him.
Ah yes we have already had a lot of disagreements over this. I’ve already met with a Rabbi a few times in the city but I did’t tell my bf. Well eventually I did and he wasn’t happy, but I told him I was looking into it for myself and if he wasn’t happy he could walk. I wasn’t going to force to him to be a part of anything he wasn’t comfortable with and if he ultimately wasn’t then I would have to make the best decision for myself.
Mandy, you’re going to have women telling you to run because they don’t want you dating him. Long ago, a Jewish gal pal said to me in front of my secular Jewish boyfriend that I was stealing “their” resources. But you’re also going to have people telling you to run for very good reasons. Frankly, I think he sounds like a shmuck. But maybe he’s an adorable shmuck and smells good and that’s nature telling you to broaden the gene pool for the greater good of humanity.
It seems you’re both pretty young. My advice: If you are looking for a serious relationship, it seems he’s too immature and conflicted and don’t let him talk about this marriage/kids crap, either. Tell him to cut it out. It’s not nice. No guy should EVER mention that stuff unless they’re willing to man up and do it. There are plenty of secular guys out there who possess more maturity.
Don’t have sex with him. The more partners you have, the more at risk you are for disease and guys can be asymptomatic, thinking they’re clean when they’re not.
If you’re going to convert, do it for YOU. If you want resources, say so and I’ll send you a ton.
I wish you much luck. 🙂
He cannot tell you to convert, you have to do it on your own. ie. theoretically it has to come from you.
as for the remarks of the other readers: might be that he is not honest, I cannot judge this.
I saw a guy who was coming to Ivrit classes with his non-jewish girlfriend while he announced that he was leaving for Israel next week to marry another, jewish woman.
He did not act as if he was religious.
But still, I never quite understood this….
I have been in a similar situation when I dated a shiksa in college. She wanted to convert, none of that was me, it was her own initiative, although I personally doubted that she would make it, not because she didn’t want to, but because we all know what an all out pain they make conversions to be with alot of politics (and aside from even that, there were things I knew she probably wouldn’t want to leave behind when making such a switch).
Anyway, just to cover what was true for me, I was not using her. We really and honestly liked each other. If she had been Jewish through some halachic technicality, I’m sure things would have worked out better than they did. I put up barriers to make certain things wouldn’t go too far (I.e. We wouldn’t say “I love you” because I believed that would be lying about what would likely happen, even though an outside observer would probably say we did love each other). In some ways I definitely was not the greatest bf, mostly because there really is a big cultural gap sometimes in dealing with non-Jews, and some out of my own inexperience with how to deal with those things.
In the end, things fell apart because of my own emotional distance, my growing desire for a Jewish girl that I wouldn’t have to play all these akward games with, and she got fed up with the aforementioned politics of goyim/conversions, her own realization that we weren’t going to go anywhere and we were inevitably going to go down different paths (I’m betting she eventually got the messages of how I really felt about it too).
Funnily enough, she was the one who asked me to promise her that she would be invited to my wedding when I found a nice Jewish girl.
It’s just really hard when you really do care about someone, but there are giant obstacles in your way. He’s probably not crazy. It just won’t work out, it’s a ticking time bomb until you both give up feeling hurt. If you want to be Jewish, pursue it on your own terms, but dating in hopes of such a thing isn’t a great idea. Take it from me, I look back really fondly on my ex cause she was a good person, but our circumstances were just more than we could bear.
Oh yeah just another thing I thought of, she’d occasionally ask me how our relationship worked (i.e. how I could be shomer negiah with most people but have her as an exception or date her at all when she’s not Jewish) I’d just say it’s complicated and I had no other explanation. That answer drove her nuts I’m sure, but that’s also how it just is. It’s complicated. You won’t ever get a straight answer on these things because from that side, there is no straight answer because the fact that the relationship exists is a contraction in belief and action.
Nobody likes to hear “it’s complicated” as an answer. People want a straight, honest answer.
I once dated a non-observant girl. When it became clear that she was not going to eat kosher and keep Shabbos, we split. Now, I keep a line between kiruv and shidduchim.
It sounds to me like he got into this situation and he doesn’t know what to do. Or he knows what to do — break up because it’s not going to go anywhere — but can’t bring himself to do it because he’s so into you. I’ve seen it happen a few times.
In one case, the guy was genuinely Orthodox in belief. He broke up with her ultimately when he finally told his parents and they gave him the whole Holocaust bullshit. (“Oy, Hitler tried to kill the Jews and you’re helping!”)
In another case, the guy is already a non-believer, although he grew up Orthodox. She’s converting to make his parents happy and they’re engaged.
In another case, the guy was Orthodox but fast on his way to becoming a non-believer. She did not convert and they did get married.
With the mixed messages he’s sending you (“I’ll come to your wedding… when we have kids together…”) my bet is that he’ll ultimately break up with you — but he may not do it until you force him into an ultimatum like either propose or break up or tell your parents or break up, etc. If it’s easy to just keep things the way they are without rocking the boat with his family and without losing you, he may do just that even though he knows on some level that it’s all headed for a trainwreck.
So my advice, if you are looking for marriage potential, is to confront him about it sooner rather than later and get him to either go public with your relationship or to let you know that it’s never going to happen.
Love all the moralistic, judgmental comments from the Orthodox here. Just as I remember. “It’s all about sex!” “Men are evil!” “Sex is dirty!” It never occurs to them that he might have genuine feelings for you because that doesn’t fit into their narrow little worldviews. Well, Orthodox people, you’re the reason that people find themselves in these difficult and painful situations — you treat these ridiculous, stone-age rules as if they matter and care more about rules in a book than you do about living, breathing human beings who love each other.
Hey, I’m a convert so, I know first hand how much men like to use women as playthings as this is why I’ve mostly been single. I can’t tell you how many men wanted to sleep with me but, I found out they had a REAL girlfriend or wife…
What does being a convert have to do with knowing that most men want to have sex with women? Do you think a pair of tzitzis means he’ll keep his hands to himself? It doesn’t. And do you think Jewish women never date men who are interested in sex. Too funny.
I thought I left a comment.
(Why won’t this post?!?!)
Oh well. What I had written was that I know several cases personally.
One was where the guy really still believed in Orthodox Judaism but fell in love with a non-Jewish woman. When he finally told his parents about her they gave him the whole bullshit holocaust guilt trip (“what, you’re going to do to us what Hitler failed to?!?!”) and he broke up with her.
One was where the guy really did not believe. She is converting to make his parents happy and they are engaged.
The other is where the guy was on his way from belief to non-belief. He married his Catholic girlfriend and while his parents weren’t happy, they did attend.
You can tell from the comments of the Orthodox Jews here how judgmental and moronic are the views taught in Orthodox Judaism. It has to be about the sex! Men are dirty and only think of one thing! It literally never occurs to a lot of them that you and he could be in love. It’s just not in their carefully indoctrinated and protected worldview, and they have a way of simply not seeing what doesn’t fit into their worldview.
It sounds to me like your boyfriend is conflicted. He wants to be with you and likes to imagine a future with you but at the same time he thinks on some level that he has to end up with a Jew. My advice is that if you’re serious about this guy, you need to push him towards making that choice sooner rather than later. Otherwise, there is a significant chance that he will string you (and himself!) along for a few years and then finally settle down with a Nice Jewish Girl.
It does happen and it can happen, but only if he wants to make that choice and is strong enough to do so.
(Maybe it’s too long? Part 1:)
Oh well. What I had written was that I know several cases personally.
One was where the guy really still believed in Orthodox Judaism but fell in love with a non-Jewish woman. When he finally told his parents about her they gave him the whole bullshit holocaust guilt trip (“what, you’re going to do to us what Hitler failed to?!?!”) and he broke up with her.
One was where the guy really did not believe. She is converting to make his parents happy and they are engaged.
The other is where the guy was on his way from belief to non-belief. He married his Catholic girlfriend and while his parents weren’t happy, they did attend.
Part 2??
You can tell from the comments of the Orthodox Jews here how judgmental and moronic are the views taught in Orthodox Judaism. It has to be about the sex! Men are dirty and only think of one thing! It literally never occurs to a lot of them that you and he could be in love. It’s just not in their carefully indoctrinated and protected worldview, and they have a way of simply not seeing what doesn’t fit into their worldview.
It sounds to me like your boyfriend is conflicted. He wants to be with you and likes to imagine a future with you but at the same time he thinks on some level that he has to end up with a Jew. My advice is that if you’re serious about this guy, you need to push him towards making that choice sooner rather than later. Otherwise, there is a significant chance that he will string you (and himself!) along for a few years and then finally settle down with a Nice Jewish Girl.
It does happen and it can happen, but only if he wants to make that choice and is strong enough to do so.
Yeah agreed, but that applies to a lot of men regardless of religion 😉
I’m not a spring chicken. I’m 24 years old and I generally can tell when a guy is after just sex or actual wants something more. I don’t get that from him at all. I know he does truly love me, that I don’t question. I think you are 100 percent correct about his conflict. He is four years younger than me though, so even from a guy standpoint I don’t want to press marriage. He has always been the one to bring it up though, I have never brought up kids or marriage. That is why I didn’t know if Orthodox Jews tend to get married earlier or what….
Lots of religious men say “Marriage!” when they just mean “I really like you!”
They’re so trained to think if you really love someone you get married, they can’t really disconnect them…esp. when they’re 20. And then the flip side is all these ‘he just wants sex!’ comments here.
he’s with you for sex. i do the same thing because i’m also a pig.
Yeah a lot of guys are and there are also a lot of really decent guys out there too
I fail to understand how you can be dating for 7 months and not have had sex yet. Are you 15 years old?
Yes clearly
lol.
Not every guy/girl is the sex driven maniac the media says. There actually are guys/girls who, for example, are holding out for marriage. Kol haavod to them for at least having that much control. It’s one more thing that can remain private and special at least.
It really really screws up the more objective aspects of the relationship. You can always tell before and after they’ve had sex, it becomes a totally different dynamic
There’s a huge middle ground between being a sex-driven maniac and waiting until marriage. Just thought I’d point that out.
The Orthodox are so hung up on the subject of sex.
This letter disturbed me to the point where I couldn’t sleep, quite possibly because I could have written it myself. Do yourself a favor and end the relationship NOW. I converted under Reform, but I am determined to get an Orthodox conversion simply because I don’t buy into the liberal tradition. I started looking for a more traditional frum mate and ended up dating an MO… it was a nightmare from EVERY perspective. You can’t talk legitimately about marriage/children because it’s against halakha, you can’t even meet the guy’s family because you’re a shiksa in their book, and the list goes on. If the guy truly wanted to marry you, he would have suggested you look for a rabbi the moment you mentioned you would convert. The situation is not like a Catholic marrying outside of the faith, where your spouse has to simply agree to raising the kids Catholic and drop some money in the collection and you’re good to go. An Orthodox conversion is a huge time commitment, and you’ll be hard pressed to find a rabbi who will convert you for the sake of marriage. Your boyfriend is conflicted…dump him now. If you’re serious about converting to seek out truth, look into it now. Notably, 75% of the converts in my class (including myself) came from Catholic households. You’re not alone.
F religion. As much as I love aspects of Judaism, I’m certain things are supposed to be way more simple and happier for all but leave it to humans to make up extra rules and screw it all up.
Really, what kind of G-d would create a planet of people but tell them, “You can’t hang with them because of this and that.” That’s stupid and it’s man-made bull-drek.
Run, dont walk !
He is just trying to get into her pants. The fact that she is non-Jewish is just a bigger drive for him, because he is somewhat religious. She wouldn’t be the first or last. There have been many ‘frum’ bloggers who have been seduced by ‘frum’ men and their tales are documented in their blogs – most then “go off the derech” while the guys just go on living their little twisted “frum” life.
If this frum dude funds Ashkenazi girls dull, and wants an exotic partner, there are plenty of black, Asian, etc Jews out there.
Listen to some words of wisdom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuZDRSwI05k
I can totally relate. when you are going out with someone and you enjoy eachothers company and “connect” its very hard to see clearly and see that religion is kind of important.
I have been going out with a non-jew for almost 3 yrs now, and he wants to marry me soo bad. i care about him so much as well, and the thought of losing him is unbearable. weve gone on vacations together, talk and text every day! nowadays its rare to find such a thing! if he was jewish i would marry him in heartbeat…but hes not. In the beginning he seemed interested in converting, and only recently did he start saying if we get married ill do my thing, and he would support anything i do..hes very respectful and knows alot about jewish religion and respects it!
Iknow deep down i want someone from similar yeshiva background as me, and i know that yes, on some level i will feel like i “settled” Its uncommon for someone to marry a non-jew who went to a bais yaakov and to one of the top girls high schools…but yes its possible, ive considered it numerous time, the only thing that stops is me is that once i go there is no turning back…chances of getting married to a frum guy again after marrying a convert are slim. but then i think who knows if i will meet anyone this crazy over me and who cares about me.
so mandy, youve heard from someone on the the other side whose in a similar situation.
Is anybody else bothered by the word “Shiksa”? To me, it feels like another label meant to “other” people – which I guess is the point since the rabbis don’t want people to mingle… still, it has the same bad association to me like shvartza …
Mandy, I hope you find clarity in whatever you are looking for, and feel appreciated for who you are – not who they want you to be.
You know what else “others” people calling them other people. Grow up, people are different there’s nothing wrong with labeling them if not shiksa do you prefer goyte, non-jewsih women ? Should we ask you everyday/week/month to see if youve changed your mind?
btw im havibng trouble keeping up what is the correct term today african american? black? colored? negro? not the n word thats clear but stop making it so difficult it really doesnt have to be
Ooh well it really doesn’t bother me what people want to say, especially if it used in a joking context. If it’s used in a humorous way, it doesn’t bug me at all.
African American is just fine.
thanks, please let me know as soon as you change your mind
Shiksa is related to “sheketz” which roughly means abomination. I despise that term, although it has gained widespread currency amongst Jews, since centuries ago, being a Yiddish word. Most young orthodox Jews who I’ve raised this issue with are either illiterate regarding the etymology of the word, or too insensitive, to care.
Thanks 🙂
Like I said below, it doesn’t really bother me if someone uses it to just joke around with me, which a lot of his friends do, but if someone were say it in a derogatory way it would probably bother me.
Lizardqueen,
Nothing wrong with Shvartza, I think it’s worse when Eddy Murphy calls himself a Nigga or Martin Luther King called him and his brethren negroes. Whatever the case, the vast majority of American Blacks aren’t Africans, just like I’m not Israeli.
As for shiksa, the word is an accepted term to describe a non Jewish woman, just as the word goy. However, it does come from a more derogatory term related to disgust, feminine version of shaygetz.
Shvartza is not okay.
Phil knows that, he’s just refuses to believe he is actually a racist, is all…
extra “‘s” in there..
Sergeant,
I’ll be the first one to admit that I’m somewhat of a racist. No, not the skinhead type that goes around beating people up, but the type that stereotypes people unless he knows them personally, the type that will laugh at racist jokes, etc.
It’s not just limited to races either. I’ll do the same when it comes to women, old people, other Jewish sects, etc.
I believe everybody is racist to one extent or another, anyone that claims otherwise is basically full of sh*t or fooling themselves.
Are you going to have us believe that you never laughed at dumb blond jokes, or cracks about old people, frummies, and all the other stereotypes we poke fun at on a daily basis?
Do you believe it’s OK to poke fun at a woman because of her hair color but not her skin color?
the only hair color I poke fun about is “fake”. I go after actions, sometimes philosophies. None of those are “races”. “Races”, like phlogiston, or fleas that are grown from dust, are a mistaken aspect of bad science.
Sarge,
So according to your rulebook on morality, it’s OK to make fun of people’s opinions, ideas and even hair color ask long as it’s dyed.
But making fun of their natural hair color, age and origin is out.
Please tell us, great and wise guru, how did you come up with these distinctions?
Once your at it, you can also explain how people end up with different skin color and racial features if race doesn’t exist.
I do not care what YOU do, unless it affects me or anyone I care about. Genetic diversity is one of the things that is in our DNA, triggered by eons in environments. “Race” is from eugenics, which is more an excuse for baseless hatred than anything else. I feel the need, from time to time, to poke fun at people’s actions, or the train of thought that leads to them. Not so sure it is perfectly moral, but it is what I do. I Do know that racism, and hatred of people due to things that they were born with is immoral, and idiotic, most of the time.
Sarge,
Thank for clearing that up. So basically, you should be calling me a genetic diversist, since racism doesn’t really exist, as their is no such thing as race.
Still don’t know why you feel that I hate people based on there skin color. If I don’t know them personally, I don’t like or dislike them any more than I would a bird or a chipmunk, regardless of what color they are or how curly their hair is.
You speak like a racist, and use their terminology. And the fact that you believe in races itself is a small part of why you are one. My knowing the concept of race is false does not change you being a racist any more than my knowing that Jesus is not God makes the Pope not Catholic.
Sergeant,
I guess we could go in circles all night, but it’s past my bedtime. I’m glad we solved some world issues here:
I’m a racist though races don’t exist. People from different cultures, countries and genetic makeup are all humans that have the equal right not to make fun of each other unless they dye their hair or do things sarge doesn’t approve of.
yes, it disgusts me, as do shaigetz and schwartze.
Frum Judaism is full of racist terms and words, and full of moronic excuses as to why they are acceptable, as well..
While some here might respond with “but others do the same thing..”, I keep thinking about how it is so very much not being “A light onto the nations”, to pick the petty behaviors of the other nations to emulate.
Segeant J,
Funny you mention that. Tadoy’s Rashi talksabout “nigrei nechoshes” (pegs of brass). Guess what the singular of “nigrei” is?
I would presume, that correctly pronounced, it is “Neh’gar”, but I am guessing you and your rav of the minute have a different way to pronounce it over a few racist jokes and some vodka.
Sergeant,
You’re pronouncing it with a Southern drawl.
Didn’t run it by the rav or grammar teacher yet either, but I did have a few shots of vodka. You must be psychic.
Sorry Phil, but Sarge is close to right than you are this time.
The plural of the word Nahgar is Nahgray. The proper vowel for the word (singular or plural) is a pasach/patach.
But there are plenty of effesive sounding Hebrew words. One in particular I get a kick out of is in Shabbos Zemiros (Yonah Motzah bo Mano’ach) – “Uf**kdu V’anu Hashem Echad”. I love to hear everyone mumble or whisper at that part 🙂
Replace “effesive” with “offensive”. Some grammarian I am, huh?
Dikduk,
I took the pronounciation from Rashi with nekudot from the Pentateuch and Rashi’s commentary by R. Sharfman. Rashi spelled nun gimmel reish yud.
I realize that his nekudot and translation is full of mistakes, I noticed about a dozen myself, but my Hebrew grammar isn’t that great.
Ps. Guess how heimish people pronounce dikduk?
If you two have been dating for 7 months, but have not yet had sex, he may be gay.
and goy.
did you know that, to Mormons, Jews are gentiles? I laughed.
Technically, everyone is a goy, as goy means “nation”. We just happen to be a goy kadosh.
“We just happen to be a goy kadosh.”
You’re an exception. Do a mitzvah and kill yourself.
Hon, he just wants to get in your pants.
He says he doesn’t want to have sex until he is married, so I’ve just been respecting that. Not that it is easy to do, because I don’t have my v card.
He is a virg. He says he wants to wait until he is married.
Mandy-he just wants to f*** you.
I also am attracted to twisted b****es like you. Adds a whole new diamention as I am sliding in and out.
PS-i also think this whole post is 100% FAKE!
Fake
Fake
Fake
Fake
Fake
Fake
But my attraction to twisted b*****es ARE true 🙂 (and I get them!)
The funny thing about people who think the post is fake is that they comment anonymously – this post is merely anonymous for obvious reasons. I am one of the few frum bloggers that goes non-anonymous and you have the gall to tell me my posts are fake – I will tell you when the post is fake like I always do.
Its obvious that this post is fake, and I’m using my real name so I must be right. Dont get insulted doesnt mean you made it up, you were just duped by a joke email. Happy Purim!!
Yes it was a complete fabrication made up by a girl with entirely too much time on her hands. Think about it!
yep i thought about it, i for one didnt find it funny but it generated many comments and attention so kudos
Sorry Mandy, you are not real anymore:-(..
…people…
im sure mandy is real, the story obviously isnt. and speaking of not real theres this one commenter who thinks hes a sergeant, ya …people… tell me about it
I’m interested in dating a MO girl. I’m not very strict religious. But, I’ve talked with a few MO girls and I have always enjoyed their company. Jewish girls are born smarter. I normally don’t stereo type. I believe this is true so I can do that. I’m talking about the vast majority being smarter not to say that people who are not jews aren’t smart. Getting off point. I’m clueless on how to approach these girls for a date. I ask and get shut down every time. Help. Is there a MO meets Goi website or something like this? Oh and the girl in the article. Maybe we should hook up. We can dress frum and make roleplay out of it.
I figure that he is going up against knowing that the converting process is not very easy, you get thrice turned away, then a few YEARS while the Rabbis try to figure out if you are actually committed to the religion instead of just the man… It sounds to ME like he’d love to marry you, but is afraid of the conversion process.
As you can see from the wide variation of stories by the commenters, one can’t generalize about this situation; every person is different. I do think that ultimately the success or failure of your relationship will be determined more by his personal human character (courage, strength, loyalty, and especially perseverance) in dealing with everything, than by his religious beliefs per se.
My first boyfriend was Christian (Protestant). I was raised MO but am no longer observant. When I brought him to my mother’s home for Thanksgiving, she liked him. The next day, in a phone conversation, she said to me, “But Elie (my family nickname), he’s not Jewish.” I responded, “I can’t help it, Mom. I love him.” And that was that. Every person is an individual, so you will just have to judge him for yourself.