I think I’ve been conditioned to think that taharas mishpacha (family purity laws) is the greatest thing in the world. Two weeks of no touching every month gives the couple time to chat, fight, bicker and masturbate by themselves, but is it really all that great for your marriage?
I think it sounds mildly interesting from a masochistic or tantra point of view, especially in the first few months of marriage – it just sounds too painful to actually help with anything. I always figured the fights that would normally take place during the first few months of marriage would end in some good makeup sex, but frummies are limited to only 2 weeks of makeup sex per month, there cannot even be a makeup hug – though that’s just a chumra.
But this really isn’t about how stupid, painful or archaic the laws of Niddah may be, God said to do it, the rabbis said to do it and many non-religious folks even do it. I hope that when I get married someday, I will also keep these laws, though according to friends of mine everyone screws up with them. Beyond having actual intercourse, most of the laws are fences around fences, kind of like mechitzas outside of shul. This post is really about two aspects of Niddah that I find to be horrendous.
There are a lot of halachos we humans will never understand, that’s why we have something called Taykoo and Halacha Moshe me’Sinai – basically two concepts that allow everything inexplicable to be explained as “we have no idea why the F we do it, so shut the F up and stop being so questioning” There are plenty of things I do every day that I don’t understand, I wear tefillin and tzitzis, eat kosher and tie my shoes the halachically mandated way – but these are not things that hurt me or anyone around me (save for those who have to gaze upon my multiple arm muffin tops created by my tefillin straps) Once in a while I do come across something that bugs me enough to acknowledge that I would go against the Lord or random middle ages Rabbi who mandated said halacha and there are two issues I have with Hilchos Niddah that I figured I would air with you people.
The first is the fact that after doing your best gal on the wedding night, you cannot touch for a certian number of days, depending on whether she bled, it was her first marriage and so on, but either way – once you pull out your wilted shaft you have to separate. Does this mean that you have to take the couch on your wedding night (I assume that most hotel suites used for wedding nights have a big bed – it’d be pretty embarrassing to request a cot in the middle of the night) So it’s your wedding night, the first time that many folks who keep niddah will touch or enter the holy of holies and you mean to tell me that there will be no touching after you pull out? It’s completely insane, madness, what about waking up in your lovers arms to a continental breakfast in bed as the trucks start their engines? Apparently some couples will plan on not having sex until the third night so they can touch for an extra couple of nights – talk about blue balls man.
The other pet peeve regarding niddah that I have, is the fact that when your wife is giving birth she becomes a niddah and you cannot touch her. This means there is no labor room hand holding and no post birth baby passing (passing a baby may cause one to get aroused and want to have niddah sex) which bugs me as kind of odd, considering the fact women need a lot of emotional support after they give birth – I always figured you should be supportive after she gives birth – what’s the deal God?
Hey, that’s nothing compared to a chasidus by the name “Gur”. Over there, all Nidah laws apply thorough the month and the lifetime of the couple (literally) with the except of having sex no more then twice a Month. The reason behind it? An extra precaution that they shouldn’t touch during the “non clean days”.
While were at it: the couple must stay totally dressed during sex (talk about a “Hole in the sheet”) and oh, they aren’t allowed to kiss or hug ever as mentioned which included during intercourse.
This is just a moronic rumor. I come from a Gur Family and what you write is not true. It is preferred not to have public displays of affection because #1 – it’s obnoxious and #2 – it announces to everyone when you are permissable to your wife and when you are not.
As for the hole in the sheet – this is the stupidest thing I have read. The gemera in ksuvos says explicitly that any separation, any clothes, during sex is completely assur. Kal VaChomer a sheet.
And we do hug and kiss, just like normal people.
Please stop spreading baseless rumors.
Yaakov,
I heard that gerrer chassidim are limited to only Friday night and mikvah night during times when sh’es not niddah. Ths would limit it to 3-4 times per month. Is this true?
Also heard of another sect (possibly skver) that has a special gown that the woman wears. I’m not sure if it’s during s*x, or just before, kind of like lingerie.
Anyway, what is your source that both must be completely undressed?
Yoreh,
You are right about Gur not doing it only Mikveh Night and Friday night, with the exception that they have to skip every other week, (in other words if Mikveh night is on Monday night then they will only do it a week and a half later Friday night, and then two weeks later) to sum it up- it usually comes out to no more then twice a Month.
Sam,
That’s brutal. I can truly say that it’s the most absurd chumra I have ever heard of, it actually goes against what would be defined a most husband’s marital duties under the ketuba.
As if our s*xual restrictions weren’t enough, these guys have to asser what little is left. Truly unbelievable.
Anyway, at least the rest of us frum people get to play p*rn star for 16 days a month, then, by the time we can’t get it up anymore, we get 12 days to recover.
Yorah,
The amounthttp://www.calmkallahs.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54510 of s*x is the least of their problems. They have the most perverted view on their woman, they are real woman haters (based on their customs)
Here is some links discussing their customs ( I happen to know everything about them from a close friend of mine which is married to a Gurer and cries every night for lack of ANY intimacy from her husband)
http://www.calmkallahs.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54510
http://shearim.blogspot.com/2009/12/sarah-einfeld-former-gerrer-chassidiya.html
I don’t know about that. I have a modern friend who lives in BP and she said the women wear sexy stuff. Maybe she was lying but, she’s not the type. Besides which, I was in BP once and a frummy woman bent over to attend to her kid in the stroller and she was only wearing knee highs. I thought it was really funny because she had just said to me, “aren’t you cold in that?” I think my skirt was thin but I was wearing pants AND pantyhose under them which she couldn’t see.
So, I don’t live in BP, but I go there every once in awhile to buy stuff, and I mean there is a lingerie shop on 13 ave- right in the heart of BP – it might even say Chassidish Lingerie at the top.
where the hell do you get your information? Do you just make it up or are you passing along someone else’s ignorance? Gur have sex on mikvah night and then every single night they choose to have sex afterwards (until the woman is niddah again) – like every other group of frum Jews.
Please stop with the moronic, baseless rumors
Gemara in kesubos. I think its R’ Yosef or smtn like that. Daf nun, or nun bais i think.
Yakov, You are either lying (that you coming from a Gur family) or you are indeed from a Gur family and simply trying to cover your community’s ass (in that case one might wonder, why the Gur community is busy lying about their customs? If you think that the right thing to do, and god loves you for that-then stand up for yourselves? why are you trying to hide? Why not tell the world that the Gur way which is not expressing any love for your wife ANYTIME is what G-D wants?)
About the hole in the sheet- Of course it is the stupidest thing, I agree with you, however that doesn’t make
In any case, its unfortunately not a lie, ask any Gurer and they will confide in you that, Gur is full of twisted and full of Woman Hating behavior. It is extensively reported in many blogs, and I can personally attest to it.
as for the hole in the sheet- I agree with you, it is the stupidest thing, and it is against the Halacha as all of their twisted customs.
by the way- if you indeed kiss? then you are obviously not listening to you superiors.
FACTS DON’T LIE! PEOPLE DO!!!
Oh the blogs say it! It must be TORAS MOSHE MISINAI!
What a moron you are.
“The couple must stay totally dressed during sex” – are you sure? Because that’s totally against the halacha.
While I usually do not agree with your ‘halacha’ analysis posts, I have to agree with you here. These things also bug me and its something I have just accepted (although I hope to look into it more someday when I have the time.)
We didn’t bother with the hotel room when we got married – seemed a bit stupid – may as well wait until shes not a nidda & then go on a honeymoon. (The whole Sheva Brochos thing wasn’t too enticing either .)
The postpartum is the most difficult – especially as you’ve had 9 months of sex and then you cant touch her for 6 weeks after she gives birth.
Why six weeks? Why would it not just be seven days?
Because on average that is how long it takes a woman to stop bleeding post partum. Sex can irritate the cervix causing bleeding before that as well, even most doctors who have no knowledge of anything Jewish recommend waiting 6 weeks before sex after having a baby.
A woman has to abstain from intercourse for 6 weeks because she is open all the way up to the cervix and there is a serious risk of infection. This is why half of all women giving birth at the turn of the 20th century died in childbirth.
Why six weeks? Why would it not just be seven days?
Per halacha, it would be a bit more than 7 days (about 2 weeks after bleeding stops).
But anyway, the 6 weeks he said is just practical (and he should consider himself lucky). She ain’t going to the mik after having baby until she’s good and ready. But until she does, no touching.
Who said you can’t pass a kid one to the other while in Nidut?
As far as the post-birth nidut goes, that’s pretty poshut; there’s quite a lot of blood that comes out… it’s clearly problematic. As far as the harchakot go after birth, I’m with you – it seems frustrating. But after a few years of doing this you get pretty used to it and it isn’t as frustrating as you first thought it would be.
According to halacha, passing *anything* to each other directly is forbidden during niddah, whether it’s a baby or salt at the table. You have to put it down, and your spouse then picks it up.
’cause we’re all a bunch of cohanim living in the old city with a functioning temple. riiiiiiight…..
Hesh, a lot of people feel the same way. Regarding #1, if you’ve been married before I don’t think it’s a problem, you don’t bleed and therefore I think you can keep on cuddling (and do it again tomorrow). But I can’t believe that a woman who’s just lost her virginity then cannot even hold her husband’s hand for a week and a half. (I am a BT so for me it wasn’t a problem.)
With #2, you can get a heter for exactly the reasons you describe. I am a right-wing MO, our rav is more of a modern yeshiva type, and he had no problem. Just don’t look when the baby comes out, and no touching afterward unless hvs something goes wrong and you need his support. Many rebbeim also say you can pass a baby from one spouse to the other so that you don’t drop him. The little buggers wiggle and swirm and if you put him on a table or a couch to do the exchange it might be dangerous.
according to sephardic rabbis, even the most religious ones, you are allowed to pass the baby, because “chai nosei atzmo.” most ashkenaz MO say the same thing. I am not sure where the right wing ashkenaz came up with this chumrah. its not even a chumrah, its amaratzus.
Amaratzus? The issur of a nida passing something to her husband is in shulchan aruch, there or may not be a “heter” of chai nose es atzmo (it is very questionable if that applies in this situation), so who exactly is the am ha’aretz you nitwit
The Shulan Aruch should come with a final chapter saying “Use your fool head”. People treat it as if it were delivered by God Himself. It wasn’t. And things from “no medicine” on Shabbos to this should be treated the same way you treat anything else by an intelligent person who happens to be wrong.
You are pretty bull-headed. And either very stupid or pretend to be so.
You are not religious. I get that, and can respect it.
You don’t believe the torah is from G-d. I get that and can respect that.
You think the rabbis made it up. I get that and can respect that also.
So why can’t you respect that I believe the torah is from G-d. And I believe the oral tradition is also from G-d. And that I am bound by it even when it is inconvenient. Like medicine on shabbos.
The shulchan aruch brings that you aren’t allowed to take medicine on shabbos unless you are “choleh kol gufo”, which basically means sick enough to go to bed.
This comes from the gemara, so the shulchan aruch didn’t make it up. The rabbis of the talmud did make it up, and told us they did so to prevent people from grinding things to make medicine on shabbos. They also decreed that it would apply to all medicine, even if it is not made by grinding. So it applies expressly to medicine today.
Nobody thinks the shulchan aruch was given by G-d. But we do think we are bound by its halachic decisions.
So exactly what is the shulchan aruch “wrong” about?
Is it not part of the Jewish law now that you can’t take medicine on shabbos? Is the Jewish religion not a valid religion for me to believe in and follow?
Yeah, why are we supposed to be miserable on Shabbos? Hashem said be miserable on Shabbos? No breathing allowed!!
i love shabbos
I love Shabbos too.
But narishkeit like this: “The rabbis did so to prevent people from grinding things to make medicine on shabbos. They also decreed that it would apply to all medicine, even if it is not made by grinding.” is clearly misdirected and infantile. No grinding, therefore no cough syrup. Why don’t the chazal have to explain themselves when they pass laws like these on the masses?
Avrumy,
For once I actually agree with you. Some of our modern day chumras seem pretty far-fetched to say the least. The make the average Joe shtetl dweller seem like a complete fool that didn’t know his elbow from his @ss.
Note Well:
Avrumy’s point is legitimate disagreement. He is recognizing what chazal did, and why I feel bound by it, and saying that he thinks chazal were being silly.
I can deal with that. I am not opposed to discussion of whether chazal were being silly when they made enactments.
I am opposed to Nuran who pretends to misunderstand the halachic process, so that he can make fun of ME, for believing what I believe in.
Dan,
He didn’t call chazal silly, nor did he say that they said silly things. The chumras were probably legitimate at the time they were created, they just seem to have grown arms a legs besides being totally irrelevant today.
That is also something you could say.
One could legitimately opine that we should not follow chazal, but should make our own rules.
But that is not my religion. My religion is to follow chazal, blindly if you will. And my opinion and religion are legitimate.
Nuran knows that we don’t think the shulchan aruch was given by G-d. Nuran knows that we feel bound by the shulchan aruch’s halacha even when it represents rabbinic decrees.
And there is no reason for him to de-legitimize it.
Chai Nosei Atzmo is not a heter, its the halacha. You cannot pass inanimate objects while niddah, but you can pass a baby, that is not a heter that is the actual halacha. People who do not understand the difference between halacha and a heter and therefore misinterpret the halacha are amaratzim.
Can’t agree more. I HATE being niddah!!! After just over a year of marriage, I feel I’ll go stark raving mad if I don’t get a *long* break from it *very soon*. And I haven’t even been through the post-birth niddah…
You’re right, the worst part is not even a lack of sex but all the cuddling and other human contact, precisely at the time when a woman (eg me) most needs it. On one hand, niddah *can* revitalise a marriage or kick-start the sex drive, just like all the kallah/ chatan teachers in the world like to claim. On the other, it feels like I don’t even have a proper marriage for almost half of each month! To think that I can, eg, pass the salt to a random male stranger but not to my own husband… (It’s not the worst thing by far, but just goes to show how absurd it feels.) What makes it worse is that I was well into my ’30s when I got married, and just as I feel entitled to finally enjoy my husband, I feel robbed of half my time with him.
The post-partum niddah can be laid at G-d’s feet (so to speak) – it’s right there in the Chumash. But the 2-week monthly niddah is a result of the Rabbis claiming that we don’t have the knowledge to distinguish between niddah (which requires separation only for the period of the blood flow, mid’oraita) and zavah (which requires a 7-day ‘quarantine’ period after the cessation of the blood flow). So we got the worst of both…
I wonder in my more cynical moments whether the halachot of niddah were designed to benefit men with a rather warped view of sex, or who think that if they can’t get sex from their wife then they needn’t bother with her at all; or women who don’t like their husbands very much and prefer to have as little to do with them as possible.
I tried to feel the spiritual significance of observing the halachot of ‘taharat ha-mishpacha’ (talk about putting a positive spin on things – just call it ‘family purity’), but it got old after only a few months. Even mikveh feels like a nuisance now, as in ‘let’s just get it over with, and start living again’. I still keep the halachot, mind you, but can’t help feeling resentful about it.
Don’t get me wrong: my husband is very loving and supportive, incl. at the time of niddah, but there’s just so many things you can’t do. Just how do you define ‘intimate’ or ‘flirtatious’ behaviour that you’re supposed to completely avoid, anyway? Just where does it stop?
you should read aryeh kaplan’s book “waters of eden” to have a deeper understanding of this mitzvah. hopefully it help you appreciate it.
I’ve read it, as well as a few others. The trouble is that something that sounds lovely and deep from an intellectual point of view doesn’t necessarily help when you’re feeling miserable and resentful – basically, sulking at G-d. (Not saying that it’s the world’s most mature approach.)
My wife found the whole experience relating to niddah humiliating, degrading, and completely contrary to her needs of physical contact (not necessarily sex) and psychological well-being in general. She was quite happy when a hysterectomy eventually rendered all of it unnecessary.
I have heard frum women say that a hysterectomy was the “best gift they ever gave themselves”, so to speak.
Assuming they’ve already had kids, maybe…
Even then, it would be like men saying that castration was “the best gift they ever gave themselves”,
Yes, after done having kids. Hysterectomy leaves the ovaries. Castration is whole different ball game.
Sometimes hysterectomy includes oophrectomy
Castrated men can still have and enjoy sex, just not to have kids.
Castrated men can still have s@x, just not to have children.
No, what you are thinking of is vasectomy, which is when the connection of urethra to testes is cut, castration is when the penis and testicles are completely cut off.
you`re all extremists!!
This is why many frum women on bc pills these days opt for the seasonal pill. You get months of uninterrupted intimacy.
If I was a chick I wouldn’t want that shit in my body.
Tru dat hesh. To be “graphic”, spotting is more likely to occur with the seasonal pill, which defeats the whole purpose because then it isn’t even planned!!!
Why not? BC pills are nothing more than the hormones we already have.
Yes, the hormones in your body introduced at a completely unnatural level and a completely unnatural rate. Recent research is showing that woman who remain on the pill for more than 5 years consecutively have an increased risk of several types of cancers. You can’t just mess with your body’s natural processes like that without consequences.
And a significantly reduced risk of other cancers.
Spotting is not a huge problem if you know how to avoid them becoming a halakhic problem when it’s not your veset.
God made women’s cycles a certain way.
Humans decided that there needed to be seven clean days after niddah.
So, we change what GOD made rather than what people made? Really? There is very clearly something wrong here.
You’re right. If God doesn’t do what the guy with the funny hat wants, then God is out of line and needs to listen to what his betters tell Him!
I couldn’t agree more!! I was recently reading a forum for infertility and taharat hamishpacha. Instead of allowing these women to shorten the seven day MAN-MADE duration, they recommend the women be put on hormones and infertility drugs to change their natural date of ovulation and mess with everything. How does that make sense? I find that asinine!
In regards to child birth I feel EXACTLY the same way. I just dont believe that Hashem meant for men and women (who are married) to not be able to touch after a baby is born. Plus, having to put a baby down before your spouse can pick the baby up again is just crazy.
The fact that a woman becomes a Niddah at childbirth is in the Torah. Obviously, not every ramification of the Niddah status is spelled out in the Torah.
Things like this make me ask who really “wrote” the Torah.
Ancient men did not attend births, which were done in a woman’s tent. Word was passed to the father and the mother stayed in the company of the womenfolk. But the men got all the mazal tovs. Amazing, if you think about it.
I think you need a post about pre-marriage Niddah keeping, instead of shomer negiah.
(Be honest, you know the girl who wanted to do that…)
Isn’t Niddah for after marriage? I mean, isn’t Shomer Negia primarily for the reason that the girl is a Nidda and so having sex is forbidden and therefore Shomer Negia was imposed by the Rabbis as putting a fence around a fence because we all know that if you shake hands you’ll definitely be wanting to go at it like animals from the strong physical contact.
PS…I can’t say I’ve always been perfectly Shomer Negia..but I kind of think that limiting the physical contact just makes people go nuts. If you aren’t allowed to touch at all maybe something as simple as a handshake will turn you on way too much to the point that it does lead you to think about sex, but I doubt a normal healthy red-blooded male who is allowed to touch women on a regular basis would find a handshake sexual. It’s all about the taboo. Maybe being Shomer Negiya also creates an attraction that wouldn’t normally be there just because touching the other person is off-limits so in return you want it. The off-limits thing definitely can give quite a rush to some folks 😉
Reminds me of a story.
I was interviewing for law school, and when the interviewer came out to get me, she stuck out her hand. So I shook it.
After the interview, when we were getting up, I explained that I really don’t shake women’s hands, but that since it was in public, I didn’t want to make her feel awkward, so I did.
She said, “well, I can assure you there was nothing s*xual about it; it was pure business.”
To which I didn’t respond (but thought afterward), “Maybe for you it wasn’t. But I’m a single yeshiva guy, and you are smoking.”
Is that really the justification for shomer negiah? So if an unmarried girl goes to the mikvah, she can have sex?
Negative. Shomer Negia is not Rabbinical. It’s based off a pasuk “Lo sikrivu legalos ervasa” – Do not “come close” to adultery. Every word in the Torah is measured, the words “come close,” which sound extra, teach you that even touching is forbidden, since the Torah could have just as easily said “Do not commit adultery.”
Also, your understanding of shaking hands is a bit off, it’s not just that it will turn you on, it’s based off a gemara that says that all “loving” touch is forbidden, since it can be under the general heading of “come close” to adultery.
And it’s not entirely clear that shaking hands is prohibited in the first place, some poskim say a simple handshake is not loving touch, and is therefore permitted.
With your wife who is a niddah, there are a whole new set of stringent rules, harchakos, because familiarity with ones wife means if we are too touchy during niddah, we may end up going farther than planned, which i do not think is the case with a business handshake, hence why some poskim are lenient.
The biggest problem with niddah is that many of the rabbinic stringencies passed are based on the rabbis incorrect understanding of female anatomy.
Really? Like what?
To get a full picture, check out this link
http://www.daatemet.com/articles/article.cfm?article_id=7&lang=en
I’m sure A. Nuran has a lot to say on this
I went to this link.
“This must be remembered well: menstrual blood is the body’s regular blood, flowing in the most usual manner from a wound”
THIS IS NOT CORRECT. There is NO BLOOD that actually comes out when a woman has her period. It’s all that lining. I like to joke that it’s “baby food” coming out. In a manner of speaking it is.
Furthermore, now that we’ve advanced and we have things like tampons, the flow is not that big of a deal. My mother made me wear those almost diapers until sometime when I was 15. I was supposed to wait until I was 16 but I used to have my dad’s girlfriend buy them or pitch a fit and refuse to go to school when I had “it.”
Oh, man I just need to quote this one more time,
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“Do not come near a woman during her period of uncleanness to uncover her nakedness.” (Leviticus 18:19) And she is as a viper who kills with its glance, all the more so shall it harm one to sleep with her, for her evil is a contagious evil, etc., her impurity will always be remembered, for she is as vermin and a leper, whose impurity is in their bodies (Ramban).”
nope judaism isn’t $exist at all
LOL!!!
Perhaps the niddah in the Ramban’s quote is giving him the evil eye because she’s so hacked off about being so isolated, ostracised and vilified. 🙂 … Or perhaps because she’s not getting any. *L*
only proves that PMS existed in medieval times
WRONG! Blood comes out of a woman’s vagina during her period. Other things come out, too. But there is blood. Plain, regular blood. Do you get your “science” from your holy books? You may want to re-think that.
Don’t need to, Michaltastik has already covered some of the high points.
Your concerns are absolutely valid. A lot of the stringencies are based on denial of emotional and physical reality.
what do you mean?
Go to the link. It will answer your question.
Also, women want a man most when they get their…. niddah.
“there cannot even be a makeup hug – though that’s just a chumra.”
I’m pretty sure its at least a D’Rabbanan.
LOL im a frum gay guy, you guys have it easy tbh.
suck it up.
Another reason to be glad I’m gay! None of this to worry about.
Frum lesbians sometimes mimic niddah laws in their relationships.
“Frum” lesbians following niddah laws??? You can’t be serious…
Yeah, next we’ll have gays keeping niddah when they get a hemorrhoid.
What if their cycles are opposite each other so one or the other is ALWAYS in niddah?
Then again, when women spend time together, their cycles generally sync up, so maybe not.
I thought the icky evil female Blood Magic only applied to destroying men’s purity. The midwife touches all sorts of things in all sorts of conditions. Tanakh talks about men being “unclean until nightfall” if they sit on the same bench, and so on.
At least you’ll never have niddah blues. LOL
What?
I think I’d rather take the 10 yard penalty and have pre-marital relations with my fiance than make whoopie only once on my honeymoon. “Strategic default” sexy-style.
these are some things i don’t think i’ll be able to deal with. if my wife insists, i’ll go along with it i guess, but otherwise i’m not going to deny her comfort and solace during these times that are vital to marriage. monthly niddah i can understand, but even then, not hugging, holding hands, etc. seems unreasonable if you netilat yadayim.
Wait. Did you just say if you do netilat yadayim? What does that have to do with it?
You seem to be under the impression it has to do with being “dirty”. It doesn’t.
who said touching the shoulders of a niddah is physical impurity? it’s ritual impurity. there is no physiological difference in her shoulders during niddah or not.
This article is typical of someone who does not have sex on a regular basis (which is good for an unmarried person) and has never had kids.
Sex needs a break. I thought like you until I got married, but sometimes you need the separation time in order to appreciate the time together even more. In short, don’t confuse your current sex drive for the norm throughout the majority of your adult life.
As for your issues: Most religious people who get married do not have sex on their wedding night. They use the first week to fool around like teenagers (without sex) and go for it towards the end of the sheva brachos. I know that there are many who do consummate on the first night as well, but it is not the norm.
I found the baby thing challenging and had to break it a bit when necessary. In the delivery room, I highly recommend getting a birthing coach / douala who can calm down the wife and help her with all the proper massages and know when she has to fight to get the doctor and when not. Having gone through several births, I can tell you that as a confused, hysterical husband, it is impossible to acquire the years of skill necessary for these very important tasks. For a couple of hundred dollars, you can get a woman your wife likes to be with you in the delivery room and actually help make sure everything is going well. To summarize, you need to be in the delivery room, but you should not be the one holding your wife’s hand.
As for passing the baby – most poskim hold that once the baby signals that he wants to go to the next person’s hands, you can pass the baby. Not newborns, but after a couple of months. It’s hard. My wife and I messed up on this one. These laws were probably meant for a society where the Grandmothers are there to help and the father is a bit more distant than many men are nowadays. But halacha is still halacha…
Jack,
Having been married over 16 years and with 6 kids, I agree that women may want a break once in a while. But 12 days is still a very long break.
And while the doula comes in handy during childbirth, an epidural quickly and efficiently replaced her in our case, more than once. I suspect that is why most doulas are deadset against epidurals unless it’s an extreme circumstance. Anyway, I don’t think most men follow the strict delivery room halacha anymore. I was in the room during all the deliveries, and even film a few when my mother in law wasn’t around. Nothing s*xy about a bloody head coming out or my “parking spot”.
The big issue that a lot of ppl seem to have isn’t even with the $ex aspect of it, it’s with the touching/passing things
Agreed.
And the main problem with childbirth isn’t in the delivery room – most would agree that the husband would be useless or worse unless he’s a trained obstetrician or nurse. The real problem comes after, when the woman feels emotionally vulnerable, her hormones have gone haywire, and she needs lots of TLC. Ever heard of post-natal depression? And this is exactly the time when her husband can do very few things to comfort her. A doula won’t help here. And as for the grandmother – why bother getting married at all if you have to run to your mother for support and comfort at the most critical time?
Jack, I think you’ve misunderstood some of the main concerns that people have expressed here.
1) “Sex needs a break.” Not arguing in principle, although did it have to be this long? More to the point, do couples really need a break from cuddling, sitting on the same couch without a “mechitza”, and the like? Niddah is about much more than just abstaining from sex, and that’s what makes it so hard to take. If it were just sex, I could agree that it’s harder on the man, but as things stand I’m not sure who suffers more.
2) “The baby thing”. I don’t think the debate is about the husband’s presence (or otherwise) in the delivery room. I agree that most husbands would be worse than useless, unless they are trained obstetricians or the like. The real problem comes later, and no doula can help there. The first few months after childbirth, the woman feels her most vulnerable, her hormones go haywire, and she needs support the most. Ever heard of post-natal depression? And this is precisely the time when her husband can do very little to comfort her! As for grandmothers being there to help… isn’t the husband supposed to be the closest person in a married woman’s life? So why bother getting married at all if you have to seek support from your mother at your most difficult time?
I don’t think there is anyone that enjoys or agrees with the laws of niddah, especially guys. On the bright side, mikva night s*x is HOT, after haven’t been able to do anything for 12 days.
Yeah, it’s pretty stupid how some people try to make everything in the Torah seem perfect, especially people in Kiruv. Niddah is actually good because um, when you don’t have s@x, then you stop looking at your wife as a s@x object. Or, more likely, if you’re that type of person, you just start finding it other places.
It’s more honest to look at the religion as a package. There are things you’ll like and things you won’t. Things you understand and things you don’t. You make your choice and take the bad with the good. Or you don’t.
For various reasons I end up at a lot of Kiruv-style events and this aspect of Kiruv schtick drives me absolutely nuts.
That’s what frum people basically do: take the bad with the good. There’s another option, though: not just accept the bad, but try to sort out the real thing (which can’t be changed) from the rubbish that accumulated over the centuries (which can and should be).
Unless you’re a huge talmid chochom, there’s no way the average person can do that. Diaspora religious Judaism shifted to giving authority to the text of the Talmud. Many things in there are probably wrong too. But if you’re going to start changing things you don’t like without a solid grasp of the issues first, you might as well drop the whole thing. And even if you do learn them, not everything can be changed because a lot of information is not written down. It’s very complex, and not as easily dismissed as many modern Jews, ignorant of Jewish history, think it is.
I’m not advocating changing halacha ‘without a solid grasp of the issues’, as you put it. The problem is that there many issues where *knowledgeable* people quietly agree changes should be made, but there are no Rabbis in this day and age with the guts, or authority (depending whom you ask) to do so.
I agree with that. I thought you were saying something else.
It’s not that rabbis don’t have the guts — it’s that when they do try to change something, they are dismissed as not legitimate, *because* they changed something. The idea being that changing halacha is, itself, against halacha.
Or you could just decide to follow those rabbis — but then you’ll be dismissed, too.
The idea Nidda enhancing the marriage can only be true if the marriage was going well in the first place.
Not the idea of Nidda itself, but the separation time.
Any other BTs thought “Nidda” sounded like the name of a woman? Perhaps from Italy?
More like “Your marriage won’t take too much damage from the loss of physical intimacy if it was already strong.” And by physical intimacy I don’t mean making the beast with two backs.
Fences around fences, indeed: http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2011/5/18/b9ea334d-8df1-441a-8029-1d22797ec204_thumb.jpeg
Maybe fences around menses
One more thought. What is the nature of the prohibitions we’re dealing with here?
Mid’oraita, having sex with a niddah carries the punishment of kareit. So, sex is OUT, no question. What about the rest? The Torah says that a man who has other kinds of physical contact with a niddah (eg sits on her bed) is simply tamei until evening, and then he should immerse in a mikvah. That’s it: no punishment, no karet, nothing. A person who’s tamei couldn’t go to Beit HaMikdash, eat of the sacrifices and other sanctified food, but that’s it. What’s the big deal in our day and age? There’s no Beit Mikdash or sacrifices, and we’re all assumed to be tamei from dead bodies in any case. The Torah prescribes when a woman becomes niddah and for how long, but the whole experience didn’t have to be as horrible as it is.
Why did the Rabbis decide to go all crazy on this issue? We can’t ask them, and now it’s entrenched in halacha, and there are no Rabbis in this day and age with enough guts, or authority (depending on whom you ask) to overhaul the system and make it more reasonable. 🙁
So… waiting for the moshiach, hey?
One more point. What is the basis for these halachot?
Mid’oraita, having sex with a niddah is punishable by karet. So sex is OUT, no question. As for other forms of contact with a niddah (eg sitting on her bed), the Torah says that the man becomes tamei until evening, and then he had to immerse in the mikveh. That’s it. No karet or any other punishment. In the time of Beit Mikdash, being tamei meant not being allowed to enter Temple grounds, eat of the sacrifices or touch sanctified foodstuffs. What’s the big deal in our time? We don’t have the Beit Mikdash or sacrifices, and we’re all assumed to be tamei from the dead in any case. If a man didn’t want (for whatever reason) to remain tamei after hugging his niddah wife, he could always go to the mikveh, just as many frum men do after masturbating.
The Torah specifies when a woman becomes niddah and for how long, but not how she should be treated (apart from the prohibition against sex). Why did the Rabbis decide to go all crazy on this issue? We can’t ask them, it became entrenched in halacha, and no Rabbis in this day and age have the guts, or the authority (depending on whom you ask) to overhaul the system and make it more reasonable. 🙁
So, we just have to wait for the moshiach, right?
Well if i was frum and married i would def not be able to do it. sounds like total nonsense to me.
It’s more complicated than that. There’s sense surrounded by nonsense, but you aren’t given the option to take one without the other if you’re committed to keeping the halacha.
There are poskim who hold that you can pass a baby because all babies have a din of Choleh Sheain bo Sakana. The din is that one may pass to a wife who is herself a choleh sheain bo sakanah, so if one may pass TO a csabs, one may also pass A csabs.
I find it kind of funny that a guy who isn’t married is complaining about THM. With all respect to Heshy you’re talking something that’s not applicable to you so I do take the comments of married people for whom THM is a part of their life more seriously, and most of them I know find it a little annoying (in terms of not being able to pass things), but generally like it.
For those others who are not frum. Does anyone have a problem with doing it while the girl is ya know… in the red??
When we were getting married, The hubby agreed to do chassan classes. He kind of got into an argument with the teacher. He read the book he was given and felt disgusted by all the rules.
I’m all for satire, and generally enjoy this site, but you are really not knowledgeable enough to have a serious discussion about issues of halachah. Case in point, the prohibition against hugging a nidda is not a chumra. There is a machlokes rishomin whether it is an issur d’raiso or d’rabanan. Either way, its not just a chumra.
Dude, WTF- I think that taharas ha mishpacha is a great thing for my marriage. The only time its hard is during giving birth.. But other than that it makes you go crazy for eachother. you want to do it and you cant, its awesome, hard you feel good about yourself because you overcome a strong yetzerhora.
Also all my Goyim friends that I have explained this to have a great respect for it. They think its crazy sure but in a good way. They look at you with more respect because you have discipline and moral scruples. When I tell people I did not kiss my wife until we were married they go nuts! but they all say wow thats awesome i could not do that. one time a guy said “Man I need to test drive a car before I buy it” to wich I quickly replied-Ya maybe for a Kia, but I dont need to Test Drive a BMW to know I want one. he liked that.
Maybe they were just being polite? All the goyim I know would be horrified that you cannot be physically intimate, or even physically unintimate, with your spouse for about half of your married life, you can’t comfort your wife and hold her hand during labour or afterwards, and you can’t give her a hug when she is physically and emotionally exhausted and may need it most.
hi i am a chusid and my ruv told me i am allowed to hold my wife’s hand during giving birth.. he said just make sure not to look
Everyone nowadays is “tamai” anyway, so why the big deal over a handshake or a shoulder squeeze?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Do you really think it has to do with spreading tumaa?
You just love calling people things like “deliberately obtuse”, “stupid” or “bull-headed”, don’t you? Sounds more like *you* are being deliberately obtuse, etc. The only thing punishable by karet mid’oraita (in relation to niddah) are the actual $exual relations; the only “problem” with other forms of contact with a niddah is tum’a. Avrumy is asking a perfectly legitimate question: why did the Rabbis have the halacha evolve into its current form, when the basic ‘issue’ (ie tum’a) isn’t currently relevant. Unless you subscribe to the view that they forbade everything that may conceivably lead to $ex – but that would take it into the realm of the absurd (passing the salt? wow, I feel so horny! *L*)
“Unless you subscribe to the view that they forbade everything that may conceivably lead to $ex – but that would take it into the realm of the absurd (passing the salt? wow, I feel so horny! *L*)”
Actually, that is the exact reason for the issur – lo sikrivu lgalos ervah. Where you err is in thinking that they forbade specific actions with that basis – they forbade coming into contact with a nidda as an overall, “loh plug” issur for loh sikrivu lgalos ervah. What the individual poskim determine is what can be allowed as an exception to that rule (ie when CAN you touch), as the default is that you never can. If there was no issue with touching, the fear would be that just as there would be no second thought to [eg] passing salt, there would be no second thought to a pat on the back, handshaking, high fiving, hugging, kiss-hello-ing (see seinfeld episode entitled “the kiss hello) and on and on down the line. Taken out of context and in a vacuum, sure, “passing salt” being outlawed because it might lead to sex with a niddah is ridiculous. But, where do you draw the objective line if you are the rabbonim? The real issue is touching bderech chibbah, but since that is so subjective and more based on intent than action, not wanting to have a free-for-all where everyone just defines that as they see fit, the issur was levied against touching altogether. Those areas where there is clearly a different intent, many rabbonim have seen fit to make exceptions. case-in-point, those poskim who permit the passing of newborn children, or many other heterim in the context of health-related or sha’as hadchak situations.
to answer the original question from Avrumy, if you cant figure it out from what ive said until now, the issue isnt tumah, and actually never really was tumah, though it can certainly be seen as a secondary factor. the issue is sex with a niddah and the d’oraisa (yes, d’oraisa) of loh sikrivu lgalos ervah and how far wide of a net we spread with that issur. the rishonim differ as to weather any form of touching is included in the d’oraisa or is a drabanan (RAMBAM vs RAMBAN, though many rishonim have commented on it – rav moshe has a very worthwhile tshuva on it – some kid had the balls to ask him if its ok for him to have a girlfriend not in the context of getting married). Either way, everyone agrees its a no-no.
The Rabbis can make very nuanced decisions regarding what to permit or forbid, and there are plenty of intricate halachot (eg of Shabbat, just as an example) to attest to that. A ‘no touching whatsoever’ – and not just touching; playing ball games, going on romantic trips and other things are forbidden too – policy wouldn’t be necessary to avoid ‘loh tikrevu lgalot erva’. Given how severely proscribed marital relations are at all times (let’s just say, there’s no swinging from chandeliers in a frum home), even the kiss hello would be safe. Just a few basic prohibitions, such against sleeping in the same bed and seeing each other undressed, would be enough to prevent $ex at a wrong time. Plus other halachot – such as the couple being allowed to sleep in the same room (although in different beds, of course) – don’t appear to follow the logic of the intent. Believe me, seeing your spouse in bed – even in a different bed and in their unsexiest pyjamas – is much more tempting than many of the things that are forbidden. If the poskim were so concerned with avoiding improper thoughts, why not just have the couple live in different rooms – or better off, different houses – during the niddah period, just to be on the safe side?
Nidda psycho,
Used to work with a hindu guy. He, his 4 brothers, all their wives, kids and mom shared one big house where they all lived.
One of his brothers was strictly observant, where he wouldn’t even allow his wife to the dinner table during that time of the month. I imagine it must have been kind of embarassing for her, then again, they have a very different culture.
There are a number of cultures (eg Native Americans) where menstruating women have to live in a separate building/ hut/ etc. for the duration. I was thinking of those when I made my comment. At least we’re not *that* bad, thank G-d.
of course they CAN make nuanced rulings, but you are dealing with a chiyuv kares (as opposed to majority of hilchos shabbos which are d’rabanan and dont carry chiyuv skila, or various other areas of halacha with intricate halachos that dont carry as severe penalties, eg basar vchalav and others). Generally in halacha, with issues of this caliber, more often than not a loh plug-style approach is applied. To try to argue against the concept by saying that they should have prohibited other things if they were following that line of logic, that isnt true – firslty, if you cant touch you cant get much done, no need to go over board. secondly, a married couple is still married, im sure the chachamim had that in mind by, instead of saying to live in separate houses, requiring that the couple just dont touch and sleep in separate beds, that should do the trick. That sounds EXACTLY like the type of thing the chachamim would say to do in trying to balance a high-caliber halacha and shalom bayis.
As when you say “… even the kiss hello would be safe. Just a few basic prohibitions, such against sleeping in the same bed and seeing each other undressed, would be enough to prevent $ex at a wrong time.” – thats ridiculous – the point is to avoid contact that creates a sense of comfort and lack of focus on boundaries and parameters of niddah-period contact.
No, what’s ridiculous is assuming that any type of everyday touching (and other things that don’t involve touching) would immediately lead to $ex. That’s the line many kiruv people take when selling the concepts of shomer negia, tzniyut and, yes, taharat hamishpacha – that men are complete $ex maniacs who can’t control themselves. You’re also missing my point about the halachot governing marital relations at all times. According to many authorities, it can only be done in the dark, in the bed, under covers, etc. (there are more permissive poskim, eg the Rambam, but many frum people hold by the stricter views). When a couple are used to abiding by such restrictions at all times, any everyday contact would be a very long way from leading to anything that’s chiyuv karet, no matter how ‘comfortable’ they are feeling.
As for living in different houses, I was being sarcastic.
I am coming to this post late, but wow this is brilliant. I have no idea why we can’t acknowledge that many of these niddah laws were proposed before we even understood the concept of antibiotics. And you are right these laws surrounding childbirth make mother and father suffer. Must be changed.
nida today should be only one week. the reason is the type of hargasha that makes one a nida is not present nowdays.. even if you want to be stringent like the noda beyehuda then at the most one week is from the torah.
What is hargasha?
I love how at the end he says, after giving birth women need “emotional support”. That’s the key word….its supposed to be EMOTIONAL not physical! Also, if you’re masturbating during nidah, you’re missing the point.
A. Nuran, you’re freaking brilliant! LOL. And Heshy, Great post! too true, everything you mentioned. And 2 weeks out of the month is only if you’re lucky and have ‘normal periods’. There’s a whole lotta females out there who have longer periods, spotting, and all sorts of other niddah situations that can make you feel like you’re living in a long-distance relationship. I personally do not get most of family purity at all. It has really compromised shalom bayit for me over the years. And that’s the honest truth from 2 people trying sincerely to be good MO Jews.
hahaha! Great article! I totally agree! Those are some pretty stupid laws about niddah.
I like your blog and I’ve actually started one of my own. I started a blog about keeping niddah before your married. That’s right – I’m single and I go to the mikvah. Check it out if you get a chance:
http://thesingledip.com
@thesingledip
I just now two years later found this post. Why? Because I was so frustrated that I googled “I hate being niddah” and this came up. Like Niddah Psycho, I HATE it! I have been married a year and I am miserable about it. It really bugs me when I go to kiruv events and they just gush about how great taharat hamishpacha is. Not only do I have many of the issues mentioned here, but, did you know niddah can actually prevent a woman from conceiving? Yep, if she is niddah during ovulating, SOL. Additionally, the 7 extra days goes against a woman’s physiology. The rabbis who initiated that really had no idea about women’s cycles and of that I am convinced.
Heshy, now being married yourself I would be interested if your opinion has changed at all.
You are a tool. Just because you do not understand something, doesn’t mean you need to make a web site bashing at Halacha.
You call yourself observant…
Ask some questions, think about it for yourself.
G-D created man, and thus human Psychology… I’m sure that if god was the sick, sadistic bastard you think he is, it wouldn’t make sense to follow his laws.
Broaden your perspective, think outside the box.
Get a life.
why is it against halacha for my husband to finger me?
I say that as someone who will never be Jewish, Niddah is plain disgusting and unfair! Do break those rules!
There during childbirth. Dude you don’t want to see you wife being torn open like that….. Things will never be the same