I understand chabad hatred, I really do. If it’s justified or not is hard to tell. I’ve heard dozens of stories on the both sides of the fence, about the community that modified their mikvah according to chabads standards and then chabad turned around and built their own. About the community kollel that gave the same exact classes as the local chabad and about the shul that invited a chabad rabbi to teach some children and ended up opening his own shul and taking their minayn away. I could probably list a hundred horror stories I’ve heard through visiting communities over the years. Usually chabad hatred is like racism, it’s based on one persons personal experience. Just because a black man robbed you once, doesn’t give you an excuse to write off an entire people as evil.
What really irks me about chabad hatred is the folks who use chabad and then turn around to spew their hatred about them. Regardless of what you think, this guest post about Loving and Hating Chabad summed up many of my views, although I don’t agree with some of it and the author doesn’t know chabad that well. I know that the second you mention chabad it breeds sinas chinam, I’m not even talking about the Rebbe is Moshiach BS – that is a whole different story. I’m talking about people who use chabads services and then talk smack. I should mention that this goes both ways, I have met quite a few folks who have a completely different view of chabad based on a one time experience. The title of the post sums it up, I hear it all the time “I was in Yellowstone and I needed a mikvah and now I love chabad” I find it strange that one negative or positive experience can alter someone’s opinion of an entire group – but it just goes to show you that most of the flack that chabad gets from the Jewish community at large is baseless.
People are constantly using chabad as a hotel, restaurant and middle of nowhere all in one Jewish services. No other group in the world will ever do the kind of stuff chabad does and that alone wipes away anything bad they could have done. I wish that people would stop using the Meshichist stuff and their one experience to hate on an entire group of do-gooders. And if you’re going to use chabad as a hotel or restaurant give them a damned donation.
Welcome to married life.
You know that Chabad Mikvos are a bit different then regular city mikvos. Check it out and write another piece on that subject.
Welcome to life.
Fence Sitter! I loved your blog. Please go back to it?
A good number of those “regular” mikvos were constructed to Chabad standards as well.
Please tell – how they different?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXNNIIytFvQ
read about asher meza and his fight against chabad, dont know what to make of that
Damn straight Heshy!
another important video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgz7FRYlfnc
When Chabad did a nice thing for a relative, I sent them a check that covered the cost of what they did. When I asked to use their mikvah for the conversion of another relative they refused. When the next called me for a contribution to help avoid forclosure on their property I told them (in Yiddish) that they could get buried with their dead rebbe.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150929976587462&set=vb.503577461&type=2&theater
You make me proud to be a co-religionist with you. Are you teacher in a day-school? You should be. There’s nothing better than teaching children that people, and Chabadniks in particular, are prefect for using when they offer to help you, but even more satisfying to refuse when they ask you for help. Especially when this is paired with resentment about some incident where you did not get your way (I’m sure you are reporting it 100% correctly and not leaving out any relevant facts).
Am Yisrael Chai, Kishmir. You represent the best midos that frumkiet teaches today. Stick it to them, and while your at it, dig in to their dead rebbe — in yiddish. Classy. We shep nachas from people like you.
Chabad did a nice thing for your relative by NOT allowing them to use their mikveh. You don’t seem to be aware of the fact that Chabad has specific policy against involving themselves in conversations whatsoever. One of the major reasons why is because your relative’s conversion would’ve been heavily questioned just because s/he used a Chabad mikveh. You should be thanking them instead of bashing them. Shame on you.
I have an issue with Chabad’s overemphasis on Mashiach (even outside the ‘rebbe-is Moshiach’ crowd). But that’s a hashkafic difference, and I have hashkafic differences with other groups as well. Although I would never become Chabad myself, I love the services Chabad provides & I love their warmth. But that’s mostly the far-flung shlichim. I find the Crown Heights community to be a little less to my taste.
I’m a Lubavitcher “outside the ‘rebbe-is Moshiach crowd”Who wrote the following on a different blog site under a different pseudonym.
Is Lubavitcher messianism without any redeeming merit? Berger’s answer is an unequivocal yes, but there is reason to rethink the matter. Clearly, at the level of theology, the messianists have administered a jolt to Orthodox Judaism. The appearance on the Jewish scene of hasidim espousing a version of Second Coming theology is bizarre and disorienting. Still, under current conditions, the religious tremors it has set off may prove a boon for Orthodox belief. Let me explain.Readers of Berger’s book cannot fail to gain the impression that belief in the messiah is a central religious concern of Orthodox Jews today. For the bulk of the Orthodox, however, this is just not so. Certainly in the “modern Orthodox” camp, which is Berger’s home base, messianic expectation exists more as a verbal formula to be repeated than as a live religious option. (The non-Orthodox long ago abandoned belief in a personal messiah; they look instead to a messianic age.) The classic formulation of the Maimonidian principle—“I believe with complete faith in the coming of the messiah, and even though he may tarry I await him each day, hoping that he will come”—lacks existential meaning for a majority of Orthodox Jews in the contemporary context. This has everything to do with the impact of secularization, which has weakened the “plausibility structure” (the phrase is Peter Berger’s) of all faith affirmations, and made the messianic hope seem like a pious dream. Ironically the very same process of secularization goes a long way toward explaining why the messianists have run into a stone wall in seeking non-Lubavitch, Orthodox converts to their position.Seen from this perspective, the messianic fervor of the Lubavitchers—messianist and non-messianist alike—is a welcome indication that the religious juices continue to flow in Orthodox Judaism. This ties in with a crucially important point about the belief in the messiah made decades ago by the great German Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweig
“The expectation of the coming of the messiah, by which and because of which Judaism lives, would be . . . empty babble, if the appearance again and again of a false messiah did not render it reality and unreality, illusion and disillusion. The false messiah is as old as the hope for the true messiah. He is the changing form of this changeless hope. He separates every Jewish generation into those whose faith is strong enough to give themselves up to an illusion, and those whose hope is so strong that they do not allow themselves to be deluded. The former are the better, the latter the stronger. The former bleed as victims on the altar of the eternity of the people, the latter are the priests who perform the service at this altar. And this goes on until the day when all will be reversed, when the belief of the believers will become truth, and the hope of the hoping a lie.”
What Rosenzweig understood, and what Berger does not begin to comprehend, is that genuine longing for the coming of the messiah is bound to trigger periodic eruptions along the lines of Lubavitcher messianism. Simply put, this is the price of religious authenticity. Far worse than the disruptive presence of the Lubavitcher messianists on the current Orthodox scene would be their total absence. An Orthodox Judaism in which hope for the messiah remained permanently fixed at the level of pious affirmation would be nothing more than a religious mummy. Call them crazy, call them heretics, the Lubavitcher messianists bear powerful, if strange, witness to the continued vitality of Judaism’s belief in the messiah.
While your comments are interesting and express a valid viewpoint about the necessity of believing in Moshiach, I disagree that the extent to which Lubavitch has taken this belief is appropriate, particularly after the death of the Rebbe ZaTZal. A brilliant and Gadol HaDor, the Rebbe’s importance, contribution and magnitude in developing Judaism in America and all over the world cannot be minimized. However, the inherent tension in the role of the shaliach as messenger of the Rebbe, the living embodiment of both the Rebbe’s mission and a person affected by his far flung surroundings is evident in each and every chabad house. The inherent goal of each shaliach to bring about the redemption and perhaps the return of their rebbe through the work they do ministering both to non religious and modernish travelling orthodox jews all over the world is challenging. While benefiting from their benevolence and their services, their belief in the return of their rebbe as moshiach is a troubling belief so far removed from our reality, it is difficult to assimilate it into the belief of the coming of moshiach in Judaism. The Rebbe frequently mentioned his visiting his father in law and how his father in law was working to bring moshiach from heaven, and that he was in frequent communication with his father in law. This mystical connection to the afterlife and moshiach is a central belief in chabad and once again challenging for most orthodox Jews. While it is a crucial part of Judaism to believe in the coming of moshiach, the mashichist view that the Rebbe will return smacks of a non-jewish doctrine. Lastly, the question in the minds of most orthodox jews vis a vis chabad is whether the two camps are mashichist or not mashichist or publicize the Rebbe’s status or keep it in the back burner so as not to threaten the influence of the shluchim.
While their kindness and outreach continues to benefit Judaism as whole, their supposed motivation will always make their relationship with the rest of Judaism difficult.
Might you care to point us to some of the frequent mentioning of the Rebbe’s communication with his deceased Father-in-law?
In all of his published works (over 100 volumes), such vague references take up accumulatively ten lines, and that’s being generous.
To difficulty with Samuel Heilman,
Might you care to point us to some of the frequent mentioning of the Rebbe’s communication with his deceased Father-in-law?
In all of his published works (over 100 volumes), such vague references take up accumulatively ten lines, and that’s being generous.
My information comes from the book titled “The Rebbe” by Samuel Heilman, after reading it, my respect for the Rebbe didn’t change, but the book points out the numerous visits the Rebbe made to see his father in law and how the Rebbe never left brooklyn except to go to his father in law’s grave. The book posits this view based on several data points including the 6th Rebbe’s discussion of moshiach (I believe he points out how chabad literature has pointed out that previous rebbe’s worked to bring moshiach in this world), his belief that due to the holocaust the moshiach’s arrival was imminent, and several points mentioned above. The book makes the point and I am repeating it because I believe it to be valid.
I do not have the memory to remember 100 published works, are your referring to Heilman or the Rebbe, so if I have erred in my understanding of Heilman’s book I apologize. I will re read the parts I was referring to and make sure.
But this doesn’t take away from the tension inherent in a group whose underlying motivation has been tied with an open declaration by large parts of its movement that its deceased Rebbe will return and serve as Moshiach. Heilman points out the concept of a shaliach as someone who is halachically capable of fulfilling the desire of the person who sent him including being mekadesh an isha or delivering a get. The shaliach’s work is that of his Rebbe and if you take a positive view of that, he is bringing about the coming of the moshiach but some view it as bringing their Rebbe back as moshiach. This question of motivation continues to be a challenge to many who view Lubavitch positively and will continue to be difficult until Chabad settles this messianic question.
To Difficulty with Samuel Heilman
Since you source your information from Heilman’s book The Rebbe I would respectfully suggest that you follow this link to a critic who really has difficulty with Heilman and the book.
http://www.michtavim.com/ChaimRapoportReview.pdf
In addition you may find this response from Chaim Rapoport’s to Heilman and Freidman’s critique of his review, of interest.
http://www.michtavim.com/RejoinderToResponse.pdf
I will review the articles. Thanks for the information. Is this the Rabbi Rappaport who wrote a response to David Berger?
I think so.
difficulty with Samuel Heilman,
It seems you and Dr. Heilman suffer from the very same problem when it comes to studying the Rebbe’s life and scholarship. Your familiarity with the Rebbe’s scholarship is restricted to a short-list of quotable quotes gleaned invariably from secondary sources.
The only way to truly understand the Rebbe is by studying his works directly, in their original format.
As to the Rebbe’s over 100 (actually over 150), published volumes that you are seemingly unaware of, (no fault of your own, from reading Heilman and Friedman’s book you would have no way of knowing that), following is a list of those published to date:
39 volumes of Likutei Sichos; the Rebbe’s magnum opus, a compendium of talks personally edited by the Rebbe for publication.
80+ volumes of ‘Toras Menachem’ the full unedited transcripts of the Rebbe’s public addresses, covering the years 1950-1965 and 1982-1992. When completed the set is expected to include over 130 volumes. (material included in Likutei Sichos is not published in this collection).
30 volumes of Igros Kodesh; the Rebbe’s letters in Hebrew spanning the years 1940-1975. The final set is expected to include 45+ volumes. (a number of volumes of letters in English have been published separately).
6 volumes of Reshimos; scholarly journals hand written by the Rebbe 1930-1940’s, published posthumously from the manuscript.
So if you or Dr. Heilman truly wish to understand and appreciate the Rebbe life and teachings, there’s a lot of studying to be done.
I appreciate the information above, the chabadnik below’s response is condescending, the Heilman book about the Rebbe will be disparaged by Chabadniks and unlike Berger, paints the Rebbe in a very flattering way in my opinion, but also demonstrates the extremism of some of his followers, I would contend it raises more questions than judges the Rebbe. The fact that their sourcing and knowledge of chabad customs is not correct or uninformed doesn’t completely disqualify them from making observations on a very public personality. While I appreciate that a figure of such massive importance and a great talmud chacham deserves a full understanding of his work and both sides of the issue need to be heard, it doesn’t change the fact that many in Chabad believe him to still be the Moshiach and no one has provided an answer as to whether the Rebbe allowed it to happen or encouraged it or was against it. Heilman and Friedman attempt to understand his life without providing a glorified artscoll type biography and resolve why the messianism continues to this day. In fact they do say that he responded to those who requested him to reveal himself as moshiach, telling them they shouldn’t worry about what he was doing to bring moshiach, but what they were doing. This difficulty will continue to hurts chabad’s efforts to mainstream its idealogy or reconcile its Chabad houses with the members of its sect that continue to proclaim a deceased Rebbe as moshiach. How will reading all the sichos and understanding his writings explain why the group he led believed him to be and may still believe him to be moshiach. Is there something that you can point to specifically where he said that moshiach could come back to life? Please source so I can continue to learn about this. I am reading the article Rabbi Rappaport (one of the Chabad shluchim that I was close with spoke highly of him in the past) wrote and am trying to be open minded. However, no one on this forum has provided a resolution to the difficulty or contradiction mentioned above. When will someone explain to all of us who have had such a positive experiences with Chabad why is there still so many people convinced of the fact that the Rebbe is moshiach and what if anything did the Rebbe do to encourage or discourage it, at least Heilman and Friedman tried to answer part of this question.
People need to remember that regardless of how the media spins it Chabad isn’t a central organization. So that said, YES I agree that every person can have a different experience. I just hope that people are honest enough to admit that Chabad was and continues to be a game changer in the entire Jewish community.
I have heard many shiurim on the Rebbe that said the he was a “tzadik” and therefore he was incable of sinning. This is similar to the level that Moshe Rabeynu was on. Surely if the Rebbe was a Tzadik it is wrong to “hate” him or any of his followers.
To difficulty with Samuel Heileman
You ask “what if anything did the Rebbe do to encourage or discourage it(that he is Moshiach)”.
He did discourage it on a number of occasions at various farbrenings which I was witness to and that are a matter of public record.At one of these farbrenings when certain individuals started singing Yichi etc.he threatened to walk out then and there if they didn’t stop.At another he stated that those that those that proclaim him to be Moshiach are alienating many Jews and are destroying his work and everything Lubavitch stands for.Once on erev Rosh Hashonah when it was customary to pass by the Rebbi to hand him kvitlach addressed to him one individual ,who was standing on line in front of me, handed him a kvitel with the words “lemelelech Hamoshiach” written on the envelope.The Rebbi took one glance at the envelope and quipped “when I see him I will pass it on to him”.One overly enthusiastic chossid said to the Rebbi that it’s time for him to to reveal himself publicly as Moshiach.To which the Rebbi replied “I would advise you to see a roffe mumche”,an expert Dr.,implying that he should see a good shrink. There were many more occasions to numerous to mention here but suffice it to say that he definitely did discourage this belief.
I have heard some of these stories before and Heilman mentions several as well. I firmly believe that the Rebbe did not encourage it. I appreciate your comments. But this is what needs to be publicized when people disparage Chabad, in terms of the messianic parts of the movement. What is sad is that (from conversations with people close to or in Chabad) there are numerous talmidei chachamim within the movement whose divrei torah would have great effects on the broader movement and the continuation of the Rebbe’s work, but these people are not heard from. I currently listen to the tapes of Rav Moshe Weinberger who teaches Tanya, and my own “Rebbe” where I live grew up in Williamsburg as a part of Stolin and learned many times with Rabbi Gorff(sp.) and once drew very close to Chabad philosophy as he was on his own path of where he fit in the jewish world.
Can you help address a couple other things, the first is the comments made by Zach on this forum and the second related to why many say that the argument in Chabad is not whether the Lubavitcher Rebbe was moshiach but whether or not this should be publicized. I grew up in Detroit and Chabad there was not meshichist as far as I could tell at that time, my understanding was that was a distinction of Detroit chabad and they were Yotzi min haKlal. Please address the reason why so many whether right or wrong still proclaim him to be moshiach.
To difficulty with Samuel Heilman.
Here are links to a number of videos that address some of the issues you and Zach raise much more eloquenty then I can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT0_ezORHZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykaKpIchAdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzOBC5XowkY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At3cfGSgVKI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx7I-Y3ZvJM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT0_ezORHZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCixbQjujwk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0-Q0h-H994
And more.
for the record, chabad set up shop in many small communtiies for 40 years before other “kiruv” places opened up shop in places like Utah, College towns, San Diego, etc, etc … I’m sure there are a hanfdul of stories the other way, but dont forget Chabad was doing this for 40 years before anyone else. And what people used to curse us out for they are now doing themselves. Last year I saw an Aish poster about a class on Moshiach. I’ve seen everything now.
Even though they don’t like the word Kiruv because they say no Jew is far from them, they seem so natural at it.
Incorrect. Chabad have no reservations with the term ‘Kiruv’, although the term is not usually used as a headline for their activities due to it’s implication of feelings of superiority that are detrimental to achieving ‘Kiruv’.
Chabad’s objection is to the categorization of outreach as ‘Kiruv Rechokim’, because in their opinion no Jew can ever be called far from Torah, as the Pasuk says “Ki Karov Eilecha Hadavar Me’od”.
I used to go to Israeli Folk Dancing – and my partner was always a friend’s wife – my friend was too cool to come. Finally he showed up one week – and I asked him why it was that he had come – ” You would be amazed at what men will do for sex”, he said. If the gartel fits ….
Yeah, I hear that the Scientologists are really gracious hosts and will let you use their e-meters anytime for free. Hmm, I guess they’re like Chabad….freely giving of their time and possessions with no hidden agenda 😉
Telz Angel, I follow our religion. Our god is a god of vengeance and I don’t get mad, I get even.
and you are therefore, just like God. cool.
It’s considered very important to emulate G-d’s traits — the positive ones, that is. Revenge is not one of them. Just wanted to say the obvious…
I can admit they do a lot of good. However I also think it is important to see their downfalls. As a ballas teshuva this is extremely important because a lot of the times fresh off the boat BTs really don’t have a clue about the frum world, or how the hashkafah they have been learning for years isn’t necessarily excepted outside their bubble… How many times do I have to have the “How is Chabad different from the Shtreimel wear-ers? Chabad is just as chasidic! They teach Chasiddus! THEY TOLD ME SO!” conversation?
While there is plenty of flack(and praises) from FFBs who haven’t been that deeply entrenched within Chabad, it is another thing to actually experience and see what the outcomes of their “kindness” and “whatever they like to call their kiruv”. I know quite a few girls who were mekareved by Chabad. I acknowledge they got here so in the end of the day they have connected… However I feel really bad for them. Far and wide they are the ones with the craziest and most disconcerting-warped BT stories. The stuff they had to deal with(not even talking just a couple people)… They are also the ones who are most likely to fall off the derech, a ridiculous amount never get past it…(though to be fair, this isn’t always the case, many times I’ve seen girls whose initial interaction was through Chabad, then when they were properly educated moved on…) I know people who have learned with Chabad Rabbis for YEARS, only to come to Israel and have the world come crashing down on them. It is great if you can say “well they provide kosher food, people take advantage, thanks but no thanks yada yada, etc.” Those people probably should know better than to take advantage of an organization they “hate”. The fact is though Chabad is known for going after people who don’t really know anything about the “frum world”. They fill a void. Fantastic. Maybe we should work on filling that void with a solution that involves less side-effects.
Come on now, me mustn’t speech despairingly of our holy Lubavitch brothers and sisters. Let’s learn to accept each other more as Jews and turn the other cheek to questionable/eccentric and seemingly crazy religious practices that have no basis in Halacha. Even though Rav Shach describes Chabad as a “religion similar to Judaism” I give him the benefit of the doubt that he has his reason and I am sure that Rav Shach still loves them unconditionally because Lubavitch people are still Hashem creatures. Kol Yisrael Arevim Zeh La Zeh.
Spoken like a true ohaiv Yisroel.Short on verifiable facts but full of innuendo.
As to Rav Shach, please liberal Seattle Jew,Rav Shach in his collected essays Michtovim Umaimorim refers to Rabbi JB Soloveichik ZT”L as a kofer and other such pleasantries,Religous Zionists as desecrater’s of GD’s name ,Rabbi Shlomo Goren Z”L former chief rabbi of Israel and other individual luminaries and sectors of Judaisim in the most vile terms so I would say that Chabad finds itself in good company.
Remember ,liberal seattle Jew,since you chose to disparage Chabad and brought Rav Shach’s personal issues with Lubavitch to the fore, which have been dormant since his passing, you leave me no choice but to quote the exact verifiable words of Rav Shach.
On Rabbi Joseph Baer Soloveitchik;Michtavim U-Ma’amarim (Bnei Brak, 5848 -5755), vol. 4 pages 36-40. [RS’s article is full] “of things that it is forbidden to hear”. See also ibid. p. 107 [in reference to RS’s work: “the book contains heresy, in the literal sense of the word. The mind is boggled by such a sight”. On Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz;
Rabbi Shach, Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 65-7. [In a letter written two days before Rosh HaShanah in the year 5749]: “…All his works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”
See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought. See also ibid. p. 28-9. Rabbi Shach explained that he was not lacking in Ahavas Yisrael.On the contrary he was saving the souls of all the Jewish people who had the potential to be influenced by the impure works of rabbi Steinsaltz.
On Rabbi Shlomo Goren;
Rabbi Shach Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, vols.1-2, pp.73-4; vol. 6, pp.78-9. “He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers. One must mourn for the Sefer Torah that was burned”.
Rabbi Shach acknowledged that Rabbi Goren claimed that he was not violating the law and had authored a book in which he justifies his opinion. However, although he himself had not read it, those who had, had informed him that it was no more than “a joke, falsification of facts and lies”. Rabbi Yehudah Levi;
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vol. 1, pp. 107-8. [Book expressing ‘Hirschian’ philosophy was banned and the author severely chastised for expressing views that are held to be wrong in certain circles.]
On Religious Zionists;
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vols.1-2, pp.75-6. [Although Rabbi Shach was most passionate in his views on the secular Israelis, he also inveighed heavily against religious Zionists (or ‘quasi aggudists’: “agguda’im le-machatzeh”). Rabbi Shach once said:] “I am compelled to tell you”, that they are essentially no different. It is “the same pot” of Tereifah meat; “the only difference is that their [the religious Zionist’s] pot is covered with a knitted yarmulke (Kippah Serugah)!” Religious Zionists have done nothing for the benefit of Torah causes in Israel. They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’). They include Yeshivah high schools in the ambit of their interests – “Oy! What a sharp sword on the soul of the Yeshivos!”
Of course there are also his diatribes against Rabbi Menachem Kasher, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohain Kook, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi M.M. Schneerson, and……
My fellow jew, what about all of the wonderful things that Rabbi JB Soloveichik did for the jewish people? How could he possibly be a Kofer? I am appalled to be hearing such slanderous words being spoken about such a great man. Rabbi Soloveichik was the founder of the modern orthodox movement and felt that girls and boys should both receive the same level of jewish education. In fact, in seattle, both the Seattle Hebrew Academy and Northwest Yeshiva High School are wonderful frum Torah instituions that are co-ed and are modeled after the Rav’s school that he founded Boston. I’m sure that if you visited NYHS (http://nyhs.net/) you would witness the marvels of this co-ed frum educational philosophy first hand. Please use your words wisely and in a more positive connotation in the future when speaking of such great Jewish people. Thanks
Dear liberal Seattle Jew
Are you purposely being obtuse? Perhaps you misunderstood my intent when I wrote the above or you have reading comprehension problems so I’ll spell it out for you.
I in no way meant disparagement of Rabbi JJ Sloveichik Z”L C”V.On the contrary, I agree with you in your description of the greatness of Rav Soloveichik and his tzidkus .
You on the other hand quoted Rav Shach as a source in your attempt to ridicule Chabad of which I am a proud adherent.It’s Rav Shach that describes Rav Soloveichick as a kofer and said slanderous words about this great man in addition to denigrating the late Lubavitcher Rebbi,his followers, of which I am one, as well as all the other notable luminaries mentioned in my above posts and this is the man (Rav Shach) you use to back up your negative view of Lubavitch?
I gave Rav Shach the benefit of the doubt that he loved the chabad Jews and the Rebbe as fellow Jews! Rav Shach was a Gadol hador! Of course his intent was purely and he loves every jewish soul. Oy vey
“Like” the Norwest Yeshiva High School on facebook or visit their visit to get inspired to be more open minded and accepting of other Jews.
Hmm.
“Let’s learn to accept each other more as Jews and turn the other cheek to questionable/eccentric and seemingly crazy religious practices that have no basis in Halacha”
So this snarky seemingly innocuous remark is your way of being “more open minded and accepting of other Jews”? Please stop patronizing us.
Are you implying and sugguesting that NYHS students and their community members are “snarky” self rightous patrons? I take offense to that as a Seattle community member and passionate NYHS supporter.
What in heavens name are you talking about? I never mentioned NYHS students in any form or way.I’m not familiar with the school or it’s students.Can you read? I was talking about YOU.
I attempted to post the exact words,chapter and verse, that Rav Shach used to attack the above named individuals but for some reason it hasn’t posted yet.I assume that it is awaiting moderation and will eventually post.
In addition to those listed above as being attacked vehemently by Rav Shach in his Michtovim Umaimorim are Rabbis Adin Steinzaltz,Yehudah Levi,Menachem Kasher,Avrohom Yitzchok Hakohain Kook and Ovadia Yosef.So again Chabad and the Lubavitcher Rebbe are not the only ones who were privileged to receive glorious accolades of praise from Maran meBnai Brak.
Rav Schach’s comments have been repeated many times and are unfortunately unbecoming of his stature in the orthodox world as a talmud chacham, this and the fights over the control of ponevezh are very sad things that reflect poorly on orthodoxy, however, this article I understood to be about the difficulty and challenges with Chabad in its relation to the rest of the Jewish world.
As a former chabadnik once told me, his mother in Montreal received a letter from the Rebbe and because of that she received more respect from his peers than the Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Feigenshtock (sp.) because of her communication with the Rebbe. Rabbi Feigenshtock’s brother, the Rosh Yeshiva of Long Beach is held in high esteem in the Yeshiva World. Any movement that has placed its Rebbe’s communications higher than that of a talmud chacham, makes the rest of orthodoxy uncomfortable. Where individuals can rise above the Torah from which they draw strength in the eyes of their followers, orthodox jews will view that attitude with suspicion.
Heilman reader
Huh??? What’s your point? Are you inferring that the Lubavitcher Rebbi was not a talmid chacham? Are you saying that I’m wrong in defending my Rebbi when there’s a definite halachik obligation to do so when ones teacher or rebbi is attacked?
On Rabbi Joseph Baer Soloveitchik;
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim (Bnei Brak, 5848 -5755), vol. 4 pages 36-40. [RS’s article is full] “of things that it is forbidden to hear”. See also ibid. p. 107 [in reference to RS’s work: “the book contains heresy, in the literal sense of the word. The mind is boggled by such a sight”.
On Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz;
Rabbi Shach, Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 65-7. [In a letter written two days before Rosh HaShanah in the year 5749]: “…All his works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”
See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought. See also ibid. p. 28-9. Rabbi Shach explained that he was not lacking in Ahavas Yisrael.On the contrary he was saving the souls of all the Jewish people who had the potential to be influenced by the impure works of rabbi Steinsaltz.
On Rabbi Shlomo Goren;
Rabbi Shach Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, vols.1-2, pp.73-4; vol. 6, pp.78-9. “He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers. One must mourn for the Sefer Torah that was burned”.
Rabbi Shach acknowledged that Rabbi Goren claimed that he was not violating the law and had authored a book in which he justifies his opinion. However, although he himself had not read it, those who had, had informed him that it was no more than “a joke, falsification of facts and lies”.
Rabbi Yehudah Levi;
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vol. 1, pp. 107-8. [Book expressing ‘Hirschian’ philosophy was banned and the author severely chastised for expressing views that are held to be wrong in certain circles.]
On Religious Zionists;
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vols.1-2, pp.75-6. [Although Rabbi Shach was most passionate in his views on the secular Israelis, he also inveighed heavily against religious Zionists (or ‘quasi aggudists’: “agguda’im le-machatzeh”). Rabbi Shach once said:] “I am compelled to tell you”, that they are essentially no different. It is “the same pot” of Tereifah meat; “the only difference is that their [the religious Zionist’s] pot is covered with a knitted yarmulke (Kippah Serugah)!” Religious Zionists have done nothing for the benefit of Torah causes in Israel. They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’). They include Yeshivah high schools in the ambit of their interests – “Oy! What a sharp sword on the soul of the Yeshivos!”
Of course there are also his diatribes against Rabbi Menachem Kasher, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohain Kook, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi M.M. Schneerson, and……
I’m sorry I simply refuse to read anything that will portray these great individuals in a crtical light. I will not let your sources marr their tremendous work and dedication to unite klal yisroel. Not to mention they were HUGE talmidea chachamim. Dan lechaf zehut. ortunate. Be a little more positive.
Good for you.Whatever.
Again! Please pardon the double post.
I disagree with your statement that disliking (or liking) chabad is like racism because its based on experience with one or two people that gets transferred to the whole group. People of different skin colors or ethnic backgrounds don’t buy into or sell a particular philosophy based on their skin color or genes, wheras people who chose to be part of a particular sect, cult or movement do buy into and promote certain beliefs. If you are Chabad, then you buy into some of the pernicious ideas in Tanya and, to various degrees, some rebbeism. The disconnect that many non-orthodox people have with Chabad is that they love their local shluchim (except when they are trying to put huge facilities in quiet residential neighborhoods) and respect their warmth and hospitality, but then they learn more about what some of the beliefs are and the fact that some of what they teach as being core jewish beliefs and values and present as authentic judaism, is really chabad judaism. So, there is a bit of a love/hate relationship. For example, they raise expectations when being warm and welcoming to intermarried couples and their children (and are happy to fundraise from them) and then those expectations get dashed when their real beliefs about non-jews surface and they learn of some of the racism within the chabad community.
Its easy to combine and incorporate ‘chabad -deh Alte Rebbe”s- chumerahs into a standard mikvah which most mikvahs do today. However, When Chabad builds or controls the buiding of a mikvah they do not always incorporate the regular standards of regular mikvahs – they incoporate the chabad staqndards ONLY.
That is or may be a issue in many out of town mikvahs and should be checked out before using.
Fence sitter,
Get your facts right before you condemn Chabad Mikvas.
Although some Poskim have reservations on the Chabad Mikvah design as a Lechatchila approach, NONE of them invalidate such a Mikvah for use. Among the aforementioned Poskim who deal with the matter are R’ Moshe Feinstein, R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, R’ Ovadiah Yosef and the Minchas Yitzchok. At no time did any of them imply that immersion in a Chabad Mikvah was invalid. (Rav Shach’s “Chabad are Bnei Nidah” slur is to be taken in the context of his other extremist diatribes cited in earlier comments, especially when being expressed by someone who professes (in his Haskama to sefer ‘Tevilas Keilim’), a total lack of familarity with Halachik decisions “Ein li Yad Va’shem BeHalacha”).
It should be noted and brought the everyones attention that in fact, the North West Yeshiva High School campus in Seattle (Mercer Island) is shared with a Chabad Shul. Every day as students from all different Jewish backgrounds arrive at school just as the chabad Shachris is ended. This exposure of Chabad to these students is a wonderful thing and I think it dispels many of the preconceived notions that they may have concerning Chabad people and Rabbis. Even though later on they day they will be taught a more “rational” approach to Torah by their rabbeim and that scientific theories such as evolution do not contradict religion they still love all types of jews that have different opinions and perspectives. I could go on and on about how wonderful and unique NYHS is as a school. You all have to come see for yourselves! You will truly be in awe of these remarkable young men and women. Acheinu kol beis yisroel.
I just looked at the NYHS website, and they don’t have anything about Chabad listed. Also, the time that the school starts is too early for Chabad people to be done davening shacharis. Chabad Chassidim daven closer to 10 and 11.
I’ll tell that to my fellow Chabad people at the 6:00 am Chabad minyan I daven with every morning,one of many throughout Crown Heights.Maybe all our watches are if by five or six hours.
“If”‘ should be “Off”
I didn’t say all Chabad. In my experience with Chabad Chassidim, it tends to be a later minyan than Ashkenaz.
RE: “Its easy to combine and incorporate ‘chabad -deh Alte Rebbe”s- chumerahs into a standard mikvah which most mikvahs do today. However, When Chabad builds or controls the buiding of a mikvah they do not always incorporate the regular standards of regular mikvahs – they incoporate the chabad staqndards ONLY.
That is or may be a issue in many out of town mikvahs and should be checked out before using.”
This is totally not true! When we built a Chabad House mikvah, it had both a bor on the side and a bor underneath (as per the Alter Rebbe.)
I know personally of a frum community which absolutely REFUSED to also build “bor al gabei bor” also in their “community” mikvah, so that Chabad could also use it. In the end, their plans fell apart and they did not build at all.
“…..They do not ALWAYS………”
As for that frum community….. they were (ot are) stupid.
since when did everyone become experts on how exactly Moshiach will arrive?? why is everyone so quick to label the belief in the Rebbe Being Moshiach as a non jewish idea?
THE FACT IS there are halachic and kabbalistic sources that give room for the possibility of Moshiach coming from the dead!
whats for sure is that no-one can give definite rules as to how it will happen!
ANYBODY HELP ME HERE?
Halachic? please explain with sources.
Sanhedrin 98b, Bamidbar Rabba 11:3, and Don Yitzchak Abarbanel (1437-1508), who wrote three lengthy works about the Scriptural prophecies and our Sages’ sayings concerning Moshiach and the Geula, writes in Yeshuos Meshicho (Jerusalem, 5753, p.104) that it is possible that Moshiach will be taken from this world and brought into the heavenly “Garden of Eden,” continuing: “You should not find it difficult [to understand] that the King Moshiach will be among those who arise in the Resurrection,” quoting the above Talmudic passage (Sanhedrin 98b) as proof that this can be so. Here we see the same three stages of revelation, concealment and revelation. to mention a few.
I’m not a Chabad Shluchim. Disclaimer up front.
I love Chabad. When I needed a place with 3 month old twins & a 7 y.o., because a hurricane was going to race through our city….and we had nowhere to go – guess who had Bochurim waiting at midnight to cook us a meal, settle us in, with apologies that the rebbetsin of that house could not be there herself.
When my DFIL passed (A”H), who called me DAILY to check if I was OK (and called my husband in Israel daily, too?).
Who had a summer camp that was so seriously awesome, that my 10 year old cried the year he could no longer attend?
When my mother had breast cancer, not only did they offer spiritual support, but wanted to check that the family had means to pay for treatment. (In fairness, so did another rabbi in our town).
Which rabbi walked 5 miles on Shabbos in the heat (100 F) to attend my son’s bar mitzvah…..and then back again, because he had another simcha?
And, finally, the prohibition on loshon hara is taken seriously.
Sure, the institution will have glitches. So will any organization that is composed of those frail things called humans. People don’t stop being people just because they are religious.
I could list all of the issues with Chabad here, or my own synagogue, or some of the other synagogues, too. However, I don’t see how it adds meaningfully to ahavas Yisroel.
When my children asked my DFIL (A”H) why reform Jews drive to synagogue on Shabbos, he could have said they were breaking halacha. Instead, he gave them a big hug, and told them that, “some Jews are in a great hurry to get to Shul and meet with HaShem. Walking is just too slow for them, when you’re desperate to meet with G’d”
Sure we can throw stones at each other……OR…….we can recognize and deal with our issues as mature adults & Jews, no matter which denomination we belong to, or where we daven. We can understand that Chabad fills a niche for some, and not others. We can intellectually debate whether or not the Rebbe is/was Moshiach. We might even all disagree.