Guest Post by Charles Zucker
Fortunately, I’ve never had to say Kaddish for anyone. I hope, when that day comes, that the rest of the congregants aren’t jerks about it. You know, like they are now.
This happens during the week, but especially on Shabbos: someone saying Kaddish is a sign to start folding up your tallis. I guess people fold their tallis while people are saying Kaddish because it would be rude to start balancing your checkbook.
But I can understand it, it is Shabbos after all. If I start folding my tallis while someone is saying Kaddish I can save TWENTY-FIVE SECONDS off my getaway time. And I need that time because, after all, it’s Shabbos and I’m in a hurry to get to — NOWHERE. IT’S FUCKING SHABBOS.
It’s not REALLY disrespectful. I mean some of the people saying it have lost someone very close to them almost A WHOLE YEAR ago. Why would they be disturbed by the sudden flurry of tallis-folding?
I have an idea. The next time you’re inclined to fold up your tallis while someone says Kaddish, why don’t you instead, just pull out a picture of the deceased person and take a GIANT SHIT ON IT?
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Amen. But you know what’s even worse than tallis-folding while you’re saying kaddish?
People yelling at you to shut up.
Or people who helpfully inform you after shul that you should know that it “doesn’t count” that you said kaddish. And is there maybe someone who’s “really” saying it for your dearly departed? And if not, do you want to pay them to do it? Because a random guy at shul who’s never met anyone in your family is clearly more qualified to mourn your loved one than you are.
And all this because you happen to be a woman. As if women don’t grieve their losses terribly. As if women don’t need communal and religious support during their time of aveilut.
I understand of course that different communities have different customs and halachic perspectives on women saying kaddish, though there are strong Orthodox opinions in favor of allowing it. But surely, even if you genuinely hold that only men may say kaddish, there *must* be a more sensitive and compassionate way to interact with a female mourner than yelling, insulting, or locking her out of the women’s section at shul.
http://jofaorg.tumblr.com/post/35649590051/i-need-orthodox-feminism-because-the-pain-i-feel
What is the proper halachic way to kick these yutzes repeatedly in the goolies?
I read an essay once called Kaddish From the Other Side of the Mechitza. Haven’t seen it in print in many years.
that just gave me the chills
I hope that you say something to the Rabbi. I’ve seen what you speak of and unfortunately have had to feel it as well.
A well timed ‘bitch-slapping’ of the offenders sometimes helps, though not enough to make up for a lack of social respect and civility in the congregation.
You are taking this all too personally. It’s not nearly as though kaddish has anything to do with your dead relative, and so it’s hardly analogous to suggest that someone would be similarly guilty of defaming the memory of your loved one by “pulling out a picture of the deceased person and taking a giant **** on it.”
Now, I don’t condone talking during kaddish, nor the taking off of the tallis, but I sense that your complaint is misguided. Kaddish is often said without any recently deceased being remembered and extraneous activities like talking and inappropriate activities like removing tallis and tefillin are done during the week when people do have somewhere to go — and so you’re targeting the wrong emotion. It’s not rudeness or disrespect for you or your loved one, but overall apathy and antipathy for prayer in particular and perhaps even Judaism as a whole. Your argument would not suffice to prevent people from speed folding during aleinu and running out, not even aware that you’ll be saying kaddish afterwards.
So you might take it to heart (and it seems that you do) and what you wrote was pretty funny because you cursed and all, but I think you’re missing the point.
You’re right in general. But KJ isn’t taking it too personally. Under the circumstances she’s being unreasonably understanding and polite
DRosenbach was replying to the original post, not KJ’s reply (which didn’t even appear when I replied. It must’ve gotten caught up in the filter).
The author of this post appears to be deranged.
Since when does folding up a tallis equate to an insult?
Wait, prior to the mourner’s kaddish, isn’t Aleinu the official talis-folding, tefillin-unwrapping, and general exit-song??
It will depend on the day. If there’s a musaf prayer, Nusach Sfard will have already recited the shir shel yom, whereas Nusach Ashkenaz will have not, and so that would go after aleinu.
I am on my second go round for saying kaddish. Neither of the times have I noticed people folding their tallism. I’m sure they do, but it’s not something that you focus on when you are saying Kaddish for someone. If anything, I would be annoyed at people who talk during Kaddish. Folding a Tallis is not something that I will worry about nor will I think on it again after reading this.
These days, it’s hard to tell who’s saying kaddish because they actually have some kind of obligation and who’s saying it because they’re the designated guy who just says it for all the people in the whole world. I can think of several places I’ve been where the guy who says that kaddish has been doing it for a dozen years. It’d probably also help if they didn’t say kaddish a dozen times through the whole service and then another dozen where it’s kaddish plus a few extras for mourners.
People are supposed to pay attention, but folding up your tallis is not something that should affect you in any way. People can still respond properly so as far as you’re concerned, your kaddish is being fulfilled just fine. If that’s not enough for you, take a chill pill and be glad they’re not talking through it, which you can’t take for granted these days.
I remember learning in yeshiva that you’re not supposed to remove anything or even close the siddur until after the last kaddish. My rosh yeshiva was a little nuts about it when people did it so abiding by it stuck with me.
And now I’ll be reminded of this post when I ever have say kaddish…
I see the kaddish thing differently.
After there’s already been two in the early parts, another two before and after ashrei and then ein celokainu, then shir shel yom, I’m actually quite fed up with hearing yet another one after aleinu (and even worse in elul with ledavid..), and I don’t care if it’s the hazzan or derabbanan or mourners, it’s boring!!!!
It’s not personal, and no respect intended, but tfilah is two long by far, and kaddish and anim zmirot are major culprits!
And then most shuls don’t keep to the halacha of one mourner saying kaddish and motzi the others (see shulhan aruch for the exact priorities who comes firat) so anyway it is just a cacaphony of loud shouting and different volumes and speed and there’s always the “mourner” who has to be last to finish so he can be the most sad for his departed and get a unanimous “amen” and actually say “barechu” for everyone thinking that this must improve his beloved’s seat in gan eden.
When mourners will respect us then we’ll keep our tallit on our backs!
Wow, that’s a pretty shitty thing to say for a raging BT like yourself.
On Shabbat, it’s possible the men want to get out quickly so they can ogle the hot chanies coming out of the women’s section.
The last paragraph jarred and spoilt an otherwise very witty piece.
I don’t get it. Doesn’t Shabbos davening end with Adon Olam? And, if it does, am I saying Hasa Deehga Eebowai by folding up my tallis as the little boy sings?
What is “Hasa Deehga Eebowai”?
If only you had a computer and access to the internet, you could look it up.
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=hasa+deega+eebowai
I think that was the funniest post I’ve ever read on FrumSatire!
You’ve never seen lmgtfy?
So this lunatic Charles Zucker submitted this and never even came back?
I will right away snatch your rss feed as I can’t to find your e-mail subscription link or e-newsletter service. Do you’ve any?
Kindly allow me know so that I may just subscribe. Thanks.
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