612ers are people who are fully frum except for the sexual activity thing, typically they are just normal folks who feel the need to bust a nut once in a while, only they do it inside someone. One of the biggest problems with being a 612er is that almost all 612ers live in frum communities where it can’t be known that they are having premarital sex. Despite the fact that lots of other breaches of halacha are talked about carelessly, sex is one of those things that frum folks still hold sacred. While you can break the law, scam the government, talk loshon horah, miss z’man krias shema, and give all sexual predators the benefit of the doubt, having willing premarital sex is a big no no.
One of the biggest issues when it comes to 612ers is having girls for shabbos, typically hotel rooms are the norm, but sometimes your serious girlfriend (or one you’re busy with in shidduchim for tachlis) wants to stay in the community for shabbos. It’s a tough gig to find frum folks cool enough to have couples who are not married stay over in the same room, let alone the same house. I’m know what I went through trying to stay at frum homes with girlfriends of mine and people, no matter how loose they were with halacha, were always weird about it.
The true gem is finding people who will tell everyone that the girl stayed at their house, when in reality she stayed by you. I had this arrangement with several folks and it works the best. Sometimes people will have a don’t ask don’t tell policy for when the girl who was supposed to be staying by them for the weekend, never makes it home after dinner on Friday night.
Sneaking girls into your house for sleepovers can be a real pain,when I lived on the east coast I always had frum neighbors (with the exception of my time in Monsey, ironically enough) and I always worried what they would think when I came out in the morning with a girl who came in the previous evening. As much as tefillin dates are talked about, most of my friends weren’t frum enough to bring their tefillin along, I always did. In fact, I’ve been so bold as to make the argument that tefillin dates are for folks frum enough to be able to daven after a night of sin, that’s a pretty high madreiga.
What happens if you want to take your gal to some place exotic for the weekend? The chabad rabbis are always curious and I’ve tried and failed to pretend I wasn’t religious, so one needs to figure out what kind of relationship you folks are in. Are you sleeping in the same hotel? Do you care if the Rabbi knows? Most chabad rabbis I know aren’t that interested, but when I was 20 and immature, I still thought people really cared.
The other big issue is when you’re engaged, almost everyone I know hooked up with their partner when they were engaged – even the guys I know who were learners would admit years later that they made out on those dead end blocks by Ave I in Flatbush. I used to display some sort of shock, until I realized that even the frummest folks have sexual desire, at least they got some shalom bayis practice before the wedding night. I’ve decided that I would front for any friend of mine who was engaged, because in small communities, you need a friend who will either pretend to host your girl or who will host both of the parties so they can cuddle in peace. This is especially important for out of town dating, one of the only ways to get through a long distance engagement is to have somewhere to stay together.
Sometimes I thank God for giving me the willpower to remain shomer negiah throughout the years, because as you can see from above, being a 612er is a complicated thing to do and sometimes the risk of being caught is so great that it’s probably less stress to stick to your right hand.
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From the original post:
” Heshy Fried December 12, 2011, 5:21 PM
I have no way to find them, maybe when I get married I’ll ask my wife if we can contribute to the stock photos of frummies making out.”
That boom you heard was the “No!” echoing off Mt. Shasta
hahhaa! I just saw this, and it’s golden!
Just curious – which of the 613 commandments prohibits pre-marital relations? Anyone know? maybe it’s “not recommended”, but I don’t remember anywhere in the torah where it says it is a “must not”
Plus, it does say in the torah thzt you should not bang a chic that is married to someone ele,, it god wanted to outlaw pre-marital relations, he would have said instead that you shouldn’t bang anything you are not married to. But he.didn’t, he only said it about married chics.
From the original post:
Dan December 12, 2011, 1:04 PM
Yes, touching a woman who is an erva is considered to be the issur of “lo tikrivu lagalot ervah,” “do not come near to uncovering n-dity” and d’oraisah. (look what we must to do get around the spam filter)
Since single girls are usually a nidda, which is an erva, it falls under that issur.
Regarding a single girl who is not a nidda, it seems it may fall under the prohibition of “lo tihyeh kediesha b’vnos yisroel-” “there shall not be a whore among the daughters of Israel.”
I don’t know if this second one has a similar “lo tikrivu” injunction which would prohibit touching.
Dan December 12, 2011, 2:40 PM
Ok, so my dad says that according to Rav Hirsch, the following:
The root “kadosh,” usually translated as “holy,” means to be above nature, by placing morality above your human desires.
The root “kadeish” means the exact opposite. It means to be natural, by placing human desires above morality.
Thus, the Torah uses the root “kadeish” to mean “a person who is designated to immorality” in some way.
My dad and I did some more research.
See Rashi and Ramban here: http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%22%D7%92_%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%9B%D7%92_%D7%99%D7%97
They seem to translate the word as “someone who is designated for loose sex,” such that she sits in a house of prostitution. This still would not imply payment, but does imply a certain designation.
But see Rambam (and compare raavad) who says that if a single girl has sex, she and the man violate this prohibition.
But see Rambam here:
which implies that it is only if she is “muchenes” “prepared” for unmarried sex, which presumably would only include if she does it routinely. See also kessef mishneh
Dan discusses them in the original post. I tried to copy and paste his responses but the post won’t go through.
Not recommended, but possible to get it on halachically if you know what you’re doing or just practice with shiksas.
with non-jews there’s a din of ‘kanaim pogim bo’ (ie. story of Pinchas)
Ramban instructed his students not to tell the masses that pilegesh (concubinage) is permitted so that promiscuity would not run rampant – clearly a hashkafic concern since he clearly concedes it is halakhically permitted. His students, however, took it a step further and wrote that piligesh is forbidden. Others, like Rambam, try to interpret the biblical text to restrict concubinage to kings – which is forced *at best*. Because the Rambam is an 800 pound gorilla in the rabbinic arena, a great many decisors who followed adopted his view as “the halakha.” R’ Yaakov Emden, however, wrote a comprehensive and forceful responsa that makes a compelling argument that piligesh is in fact permitted and that the “normative halakha” is not binding. When one looks at piligesh in the Talmud, one finds references to amorim who were traveling the country-side to dispense rulings – much like circuit court judges – who sent messengers ahead to arrange for women to live with while they stayed over. The rishonim argue about what was going on – I think it was hard for them to fathom the decisors of previous generations had an earthier, more robust sexuality – but the simple reading is that they arranged for a piligesh or temporary wife with an expected get. Tosafot and Rashi try to massage the text to be kiddushin (marriage) without nisuin (consumation) for the purposes of yichud – to simplify her cooking and cleaning for them – but I find this tenuous at best. But, I digress, the point is – we are faced with a competition between the existence of piligesh (concubinage) in the biblical text and a hashkafic ideal (a normative law / halakha is an ideal outcome based on specific value / hashakfic proposition) that limits sex to marriage. This latter view could be inferred from “a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his woman / wife” (one leaves the mated pair that created them to form their own mated pair). We must therefore ask, is piligesh Torah tolerated or Torah taught? I would say its permitted, but just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something. A Jew can engage in casual sex and be righteous, but its not chassidishe (pious).
In the first line you talked about the Ramban, but the rest of your post is about Rambam.
I guess it was intentional. You were talking about both.
Every woman, unless she went to the mikva, is a nidda, which according to Reb Moshe makes it assur to touch her at all. Even if she goes to mikva, many rishonim are of the opinion that premarital sex violates the issur of kedeisha. That being said…..yeaaaaaaa.
So, its assur to touch my unmarried teenage daughter who does not go to mikveh? Or to hug my mother without asking her about her bodily functions? Sounds like extremist balderdash, and any poskeik who takes such a position is a fool rather than a gadol.
Of course, I know Reb Moshe’s opinion was much more nuanced than what you said – which indicates to me you need to go learn more.
one’s mother and daughter (maybe grandmother too according to some) are excluded from the issar, regardless of their niddah state.
Every Jewish woman, if memory serves
The prohibition is “Lo sihye kadesha” and, according to some, “v’simalei haaretz zima” (plus “bniddas tumasah lo sikrav”, if applicable).
These prohibitions apply to anyone whom one is not married to, even if the two plan on getting married.
With a married woman, there is a different set of prohibitions.
Wrong. We don’t pasken like that. Halakha is it’s d’rabanan. Kedeisha is very narrowly defined by all except I think the Rambam who we don’t follow on this.
Heshy.
Whats a bigger issue? Going to Mikvah (before for her & after for him) or trying to get accommodations for the ‘great moment’?
Mikvah’s cost money, many of them don’t allow single ladies, if they do you have to go through a long process of scrubbing, nail removing, bathing, etc…
On top of this Mikvah Night (for anyone who’s been married) kind of ruins sex.
Project your personal experience onto the nation as a whole, much? Mikveh night is a delight for many married couples.
This is why frum education is so harmful and damaging. While non-religious kids were sharpening their minds, becoming cunning and learning how to clean up afterwards young frum people’s natural aptitude withers on the vine. It leaves them unprepared and without the basic skills seventeen year olds in the rest of the world take for granted.
Oh so damaging. Kids are being brought up to not live a degenerate lifestyle. There are many religious people who have more money than you. Their minds are sharper than yours
Humor. It’s in the dictionary. Look it up unless your mind has been too damaged by toyreh to read English
What’s the humor? It’s called Torah umaada dumbass
Not within a light year of you, obviously
oy vey!
http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2013/10/president-obama-to-visit-crown-heights.html
It’s not really about what the Torah says or doesn’t say, rather it’s about what is the accepted norm in Frum culture. Yes indeed, Frum education is harmful and damaging. It is impossible to glean any positive message from the Jewish religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is either living in denial or mistaking another philosophy for Judaism. It’s pretty clear: Judaism = evil.
1. Frum != Judaism.
2. There are lots of positive messages in Judaism (and lots of negative ones), just like any other complex belief system.
Okay that is insanely apropos to my current sitch….feeling weird!
So if an unmarried Jewish woman has s*x with a non-jew, is that permitted? No niddah halachot are broken and it is also not adultery.
My question is as follows:
Do you tell your spouse after your married that you were a 612er?
Whats the protocol?
You say “Honey, remember the first time we did the thing with the ostrich feathers, chandelier, accordion and liver-scented lubricant? We weren’t married back then.”