Back in the day I predicted that the goal of Charedim with their laws in the name of tznius was to eventually ban women from leaving the home, never did I think it would actually come true. Yet, not a day goes by that someone doesn’t send me another alarming article about the attempt of some ultra-orthodox group in Israel trying to ban women and girls from doing something which has been deemed untznius. It first started with the Rosa Parks BS and now someone just sent me an article about women being barred from funerals in Israel (I think they can still attend their own)
Then of course you have all of the riots about sanctity of the sabbath and all sorts of other sacred issues which seem to be made up on a daily basis. I know that as a religious Jew I’m supposed to support the theocratic side of Israel, but I can’t help but think it would be a lot better off as a secular country or at least one that isn’t consistently being maneuvered to the ways of the Charedim.
I made the attention getting comment on Facbook that it seems the ultra-orthodox are a bigger threat to Israel than the Arabs, but if a country is weakened from within, there’s no telling what outside enemies could do. As always it seems as if the Jews biggest enemy is themselves.
Find Charedim on 4torah.com
Are the Charedim ruining Israel? You really have to ask that? The answer is “yes.” If you choose to adhere to your own belief structure, that’s fine, but they’re imposing it on the rest of us. I don’t know what power they have that folks in politics over there seem to care what they think, but enough is enough!
Heshy,
Don’t you think you’re being highly unfair with the Rosa Parks business?
When whites forced blacks to sit in the back of the bus, the purpose was to show that whites were superior to blacks.
When chareidim force women to sit in the back of the bus, the purpose is that they shouldn’t excite their yetzer hara. That is a pretty key difference, don’t you think?
Now, you might think that it is chumrah which is not necessary, but that doesn’t change why they are doing it. (Incidentally, it is a bit bizarre for you to have any opinion whether the chumra is necessary, since you are not trying to live a lifestyle where you are not supposed to even think about women other than your wife. However, that simply is the halacha. Perhaps if you were trying to do that, you’d be just a tad more understanding.)
Now, you might then accuse them that their real reason is to show that women are inferior, and they mask it with tznius.
Well, firstly, I would accuse you of the same thing, since you daven in a shul with a mechitza.
But more, I would challenge you to tell me just who this “they” is.
Am I included in this “they?”
Because I can assure myself that I have no such intent.
Are my friends in yeshiva included in this they? It doesn’t really seem to make sense when applied to them either.
Going rosa parks is really a cheap shot- using a similar symbolism to try to show something which is really not similar at all.
It is really the same as when Israel is accused of building a Berlin Wall. Yes, walls are very similar, but the purposes are highly different.
In any event, when the williamsburg bus story broke, I advised that they should just switch and have the women sit in front. I don’t know why they didn’t.
I’ve always wondered why it isn’t up to the men who can’t control their ultra-excitable yetzer hara to change their own thinking and behavior, rather than to make women change what they do, what they wear, where they go. If men really can’t handle catching a glimpse of a woman, then perhaps they should be the ones to give up riding buses and walking on the street.
Ok, I’m sure we could both agree that that is only true to an extent.
For an extreme example, if women want to dance nude in the street, it is a bit unreasonable to tell the men to just stay inside.
So maybe it is about the balance of hardships. Since it is not very hard to sit in the front or back of a bus, I don’t see why you think it would be more fair for men to walk everywhere.
Also, your comment about changing your thinking is just bizarre. The men who tell you they don’t have a problem with it, are the ones who try to look at every pretty girl they see. Ask a man who is trying to keep halacha.
I’m entirely in favor of prohibitions against dancing nude in the street, as long as they apply equally to men and women (and can be bent in the case of adorable toddlers in the sprinkler on a hot summer day).
I’d be entirely in favor of the Orthodox world trying to balance hardships, as well, but it seems that the solution to a perceived difficulty experienced by men always involves applying a restriction to women. Don’t want to hear a woman’s voice? Wear earplugs. Don’t want to see a woman’s uncovered arms? Look away.
I’m both amused and a little sad that you find the concept of self-control, with respect to thinking, “bizarre.” It’s not that difficult; if you’re learning in a yeshiva you are obviously no stranger to discipline. You are G-d’s creation, in His image! You’re a magnificent being, not something fragile and incapable of functioning in His world without being surrounded by bubble wrap and insulated against everything that might pose the slightest temptation.
Ok,
So firstly, thanks for agreeing that much.
I don’t think that any prohibition needs to be applied the same way to men and women. It needs to applied in a way that makes sense to each. I don’t buy the idea that equality means everyone is treated precisely the same.
As far as the balance of hardships, there is no question that it is harder overall to be a male chareidi than a female. We are the ones who need to get up for prayers, even on vacation. We are the ones who are expected to not even think about women, and not mastrbate. We are the ones who are expected to come home from a long day, and then study torah instead of relaxing. I’d give my right arm to have life as easy as the women do.
Next, the point I was trying to make about self-control, is that all the people who criticize us and say that more mixing of the genders is good, are uniformly people who are not attempting to follow this halacha- to never look at, or think about, any woman other than your wife.
Thus, I don’t take their opinion on this issue very seriously. Let them try and do that for a few days, and then come back to me and tell me that it is so easy to control yourself with an underdressed woman sitting next to you.
I have no doubt that your chosen way of life is incredibly demanding. I admire and respect the commitment you’ve made. I haven’t the knowledge to argue with you on whether halacha really requires you never to look at or have a single thought about a woman other than your wife — how on earth do you date to look for a wife, then? — and even if it does, I don’t find it to be a useful goal, because I think it fosters generally unhealthy interaction between men and women, but we’re never going to agree on that and so we’ll just have to leave it there.
The problem I have with how this plays out on the bus question is that what starts out as “I can’t sit next to an improperly dressed woman” becomes “I can’t sit next to any woman” and then “I can’t sit in the same part of the bus as any woman.” From there it’s only a short step to “I can’t even sit on the same bus as a woman,” which I know has been at least proposed for certain neighborhoods in Israel if it isn’t already a reality. “Separate but equal” was never anything of the kind, here, in the bad old days, nor was it anything to be proud of.
Yes, so I think I see the point you are making.
Generally, in the United States, separate but equal is considered suspect because of the assumption that it will result in inequality. Thus, you are concerned that our separate but equal will also result in inequality.
I have two responses to that:
First, I propose that there is much more reason to suspect inequality, when the purpose of the segregation is that one group feels superior over the other.
Thus, in the Jim Crow South, there was every reason to suspect that the controlling whites who didn’t want to attend the same universities as the Blacks, would also not really care to ensure that the Black universities were equal- and probably purposely so.
In this case though, where the purpose of the segregation is not for reasons of superiority, there is less to be concerned with. And in fact, I have never heard even one complaint that the women’s accommodations on these buses was inferior in any way. In my shul, the womens section is just as nice as the mens, and I hear tell that the restrooms are nicer.
Second, I quite simply trust my rabbis to make the correct decisions about this. I think that if there is a question about balancing the hardships, the best people to make that decision are my rabbis. Judaism is not a democracy, and we believe that the Torah provides us with our morality. Thus, I ask my moral questions to people who know more Torah than me.
I realize this second part may not be very satisfying to someone who does not get their morality from the Torah, but I hope you can at least imagine how my community might, in good faith, believe we are doing the right thing. And how the rabbis are, also in good faith, trying to do the right thing.
>Judaism is not a democracy
But Israel is, and as such has an obligation to ensure the equal treatment of all citizens.
>I hope you can at least imagine how my community might, in good faith, believe we are doing the right thing.
I can, indeed, and I have no quarrel with your community making whatever rules it desires for use within that community. We part company when you assert your right to impose your community’s rules on everyone else.
if it was just tznius, then the men would be sitting in the back of the bus so they wouldn’t have to see the women parade in front of them down the catwalk as they make their way to the back… but if the men sat in the back that would imply that they were inferior
women get on in the middle of the bus
Really? then how do they pay? is it free for women?
On egged buses, you have a card which is good for a number of rides, and the driver punches out a hole for each ride.
On these buses, there is a hole puncher in back for them to punch the holes in their tickets.
It’s a dual responsibility–male and female, but radical chareidim, and radical feminists (both douchebags) are too dumb to acknowledge this.
If women dressed more normally you might be right, but unfortunately today many women purposely dress in the most provocative manner. I grew up with goyim and I never saw the kind of things I see today in Israel.
Also, as a woman, I prefer to sit only with women. Often one man will take up two seats, meaning that there are empty seats but no way to sit in them, or if I sit next to a man but try to maintain a space between him and me, the man will merely spread out even more.
Separate seating on the bus has nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with modesty. It goes without saying that this should be done with darkei noam (pleasantly) and not with aggression of any sort.
I’ll just point out that many countries in the world have separate train carriages for women, at their request, so that they can travel more comfortably.
I have issues with a specific statement. And I appreciate mostly everything else you said, (while I disagree) but this statement bugged me a little.
“When chareidim force women to sit in the back of the bus, the purpose is that they shouldn’t excite their yetzer hara. That is a pretty key difference, don’t you think?”
Do they believe then that women, who are probably similar in their beliefs and social structures, have such low self control, that the minute they deem themselves attracted to a man they’re going to jump him? That’s a little high-handed of them.
And also, having your yetzer hora ‘excited’ and then overcoming it is a part of life. No, you shouldn’t go out and seek situations that would compromise you, but neither should you try and force the rest of the world to move around you.
And honestly, they should be concerned with their own yetzer horas before they can be concerned with anyone else’s. I mean, there is a reason we currently do not have a real beit din anymore, and that we don’t really have smeicha anymore. And rather than point the finger at other people who may or may not be slaves of their yetzer horas, they should be working on keeping themselves in check.
And overall, wanting a theocracy in Israel should be the ultimate goal (because that means Moshiach would be around) but Moshiach might not be charedi, so we shouldn’t let what charedim say be the law for everyone else.
When you set up fence around fence around fence, you stop remembering what the actual halacha is, so that it ends up being easier to break. (don’t have to look farther to see the first major miscommunication between man and wife with the whole adam/chava debacle).
Dee: You misunderstood me; I should have been clearer with my pronouns.
The chareidim want to sit separately on the bus, and at weddings, and in shul, and everywhere, because the men do not want to excite their own (the men’s) sxual desire. The reason they are concerned about that, is that it is against halacha to even think about women other than your wife in a sxual way.
Sorry about that.
Are the Charedim ruining Israel?
Yes.
I mean, they don’t have a monopoly on it; the Member of Knesset (Ofir Akunis) saying “(Joseph) McCarthy Tzadak!” is not Haredi or even dati as far as I can tell.
Keep in mind that you are talking about loyal, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. Even though they might have some peculiar fetishes about how they dress, the posters they put up in their neighborhoods, and their political opinions, they have rights.
Considering how much they give back to the country in terms of tax revenue, military, commerce, and how they attract so much tourism and ecumenical relationship with the local arabs, I think it’s a shame that you’d even question their positive impact on Israeli society. Do you know that every charedi kid who does not serve in the army protects more Jews by sitting on his butt and saying tehilim? It’s a scientifically proven fact. Well, not really science. Those apokorsim don’t know anything anyway.
Oh, wait… You said charedim? sorry, scratch this.
Sound just Monsey. And in the Breuer’s community, they don’t allow women at all to come to the cemetary
Barred from cemeteries? I will never be convinced that kind of crap really has anything to do with tznius. They are just using that as an excuse for their behavior.
oh. just what is this other motive you refer to?
Do you think you make any sense? You make a fool of yourself when you parrot garbage like that.
I think that when people, like these Charedim, shut themselves off in this very small and defined space and refuse to acknowledge or accept anything outside of it, they loose all sense of perspective. People have an inherent need to change but these Charedim have shut themselves in such a tiny box that all they can do is close it even more.
This is also a problem of Jewish education where people have no idea what the difference is between halacha and chumra and mistakenly think that chumra is always the right choice. The overemphasis on tzniut in the frum world today is absolutely insane. All of these bans and campaigns and vandalisms by the Charedi mafia (as I like to call them) seem to have completely forgotten about Ahavat Yisrael and the rest of the bein adam l’chavero (interpersonal) mitzvot.
The Torah is the most wonderful and pure thing in the world and it’s fantastic if you live your life according to it. But part of our inheritance as Jews is to be an “or lagoyim” a light to the nations and to help our fellow Jews (even those who don’t think exactly like us!) and we can’t do that unless we engage with the world at large.
>>I know that as a religious Jew I’m supposed to support the theocratic side of Israel
And as a Catholic, I know I’m supposed to support the Spanish Inquisition.
Uh wait…actually no. Where did you get this ridiculous idea?
“Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” [quote from Lord Acton — a Catholic, so he should know]. Want to ruin a religion? Give it political power. Want to destroy it? Give it absolute power.
I am in no way prepared to liken our state of Israel to the Spanish Inquisition.
I am not likening the State of Israel to the Spanish Inquisition. The State of Israel is a secular state.
I am 1) pointing out that it is absurd to say that because you are of a certain religion that you should support any and all activities carried out in the name of that religion or by those who profess to act in the name of that religion and 2) especially it is absurd to say that because you are of a certain religion you support the political control of a state by that religion (theocracy).
You would think that Jews would have sufficient experience with theocracy to oppose it. Of course, it’s always the *other* guy’s theocracy you oppose — until you see what a disaster your own theocracy becomes.
“The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.”
catholic mom,
Theocracy can work very well if everyone stuck by it. Say Israel was a “Jewish land” for the Jews, meaning that Judaism was the only religion strictly enforced. Say the arabian gulf with islam was the same (not far from it today). Say parts of Europe were exclusively all christian.
You would have virtually no religious discrimination in any of the countries, very possibly leading to a simpler and better life for those that accept religion as a big part of their lifestyle.
Any muslim wanting to live in a country run by sharia has many options to do so. Jews should have the same, and no better place than Israel, as our heritage and most of our religion is tied to the land.
This is so shot full of holes it’s hard even to know where to begin.
This assumes 1) only people of one religion live in a given country 2) everybody in that country is, in fact, religious, 3) nobody of any other religion ever moves there and if they do 4) it’s perfectly OK to impose the majority religion on them and 5) all of the people of the majority religion actually follow one single interpretation of that religion with one single teaching authority. (Something which, as far as I know, is only true of Catholicism, but certainly not true of Protestant Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.)
But wait! I just realized that this is EXACTLY what the Spanish Inquisition was! No wonder it was so great!
Theocracies have rules for people of other religions. Take Iran, often billed as Israel’s worst enemy. Yet, they have the highest number in the Middle East outside Israel. They have synagogues, are allowed to pray, etc.
Judaism has allowances for people of other religions to live in Israel as well. Yes, the laws were somewhat discriminatory, but they have the option of leaving. No one is forcing anyone to convert or die.
Cock –
Of course there would be religious discrimination. Different religious people have different ideas of what is okay and what isn’t, particularly within Judaism. If you appeal to the highest common denominator, you have a very, very small number of Jews – including religious Jews – who would ever want to live in Israel. I’m fairly certain that many American Modern Orthodox Jews would shudder at the notion of an Israel run by far-right Charedim.
Also, let’s face it – religious people in power are just as likely to be corrupt as anyone else, even though using religion in a manipulative fashion for personal gain is traditionally one of the gravest sins one can commit. A theocracy would definitely result in Chillul Hashem.
Samael,
To begin with, a religious run Israel would have to be under the jurisdiction of Sanhedrin when it comes to religious law. It could be made up of 70 of the top rabbis from the leading sects, that way each major sect would feel represented. Each of these rabbis should preferable be the leader of their given sect, or answer directly to the leader. All ruling would be accepted by a majority and become halacha / law.
OK, this all sounds nice and drastic, and in reality won’t happen without mashiach imposing something of the sort.
But it could start with little steps such as forbidding stores to open on Shabbat, and enforcing modest clothing at least at the religious sites. Just as you have cops fining people for running stop signs, you can have ones that fine people for wearing miniskirts at the kotel. I don’t see how that would cause chillul Hashem.
Finally, I agree that many rabbis are corrupt. So are other politicians. No one should expect that to change, and I doubt it would get any more corrupt than it currently is.
Well, it couldn’t possibly be one representative per sect – some sects are much, much bigger and more influential than others. (Strictly speaking, Reform Judaism is one of the biggest…) But you’re right, this would be impossible anyway before Mashiach comes, and the alternatives are worse.
And about chillul hashem – some rabbis would be corrupted by their political power, no? Their actions would bring chillul hashem.
Again, though, the most important problem is the highest common denominator issue. There are too many rabbis who would not accept a majority view – they would insist upon things being done their way, and would refuse to participate otherwise.
More to the point, and off of what you said – this is precisely why I oppose the attempted formation of a theocracy. When Mashiach comes, perhaps – but by then, according to the N’viim, the entire nature of humanity will have changed anyway, so we’ll be dealing with an entirely new situation: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you…” (Ezekiel 36:26).
With human beings as they are now, especially in the post-Enlightenment world, a theocracy ends up causing a lot of damage and hurting a lot of innocent people.
But about the power I do agree with you.
Then you have the government support for the padded numbers in the parasitic kollels. When the country goes bankrupt, I hope that the US will not be looked to to bail it out.
What “government support” for kollel members are you referring to? The Israeli government currently pays approx. 120 million shekels annually to kollel members. Not exactly a miniscule amount, but when you factor in the fact that in 2011 the government awarded a total of 1.5 billion shekels for scholarships, bonuses and financial aid to higher education, it kind of makes statements like yours look ridiculous.
Are you joking? Israel is in much better shape economically than the US. And please don’t start with the foreign “aid” argument. It’s mainly loans, that have to be spent in the US, creating jobs for Americans. We’d be much better off without it. We’d appreciate it if America stopped arming all of our enemies to the teeth too.
To answer Heshy’s question: Yes, they may well be. Israel can only prosper as a Jewish but *secular* state. As long as these people (who refuse to perform national service, pay taxes, or do anything but accept government assistance while denying the legal existence of the state) continue to multiply, there will be more and more conflicts. I think that a person must be a fully-involved citizen (completing Sherut L’Umi, et cetera) if he wants to accept taxpayer money. And if people don’t like that, they can always become “yordim” and move to Monsey or Boro Park.
Judaism just can’t compete with the outside world.
It’s too much trouble to gain the approval of orthodox jews especially orthodox jewish women. Orthodox Judaism is just too god damn strict.
On top of that, outside of the orthodox iron curtain you are free to choose how you want to self actualize.
Judaism just isn’t the way forward.
The way forward is employment and physical exercise.
Wow. Do you know there are many successful Jews in the business world?
Statistics show reform jews are much more affluent than the orthodox.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/magazine/is-your-religion-your-financial-destiny.html?_r=1
http://www.jewcy.com/religion-and-beliefs/apparently-reform-jews-are-rich-and-orthodox-jews-make-no-money
@catholic mom christianity is a made up religion and makes less sense than islam. You can’t compare it to judaism. When the temple is going to be restored everyone will have to respect the Jewish law. The Jewish law will be the law of the country.
Please tell me you’re not serious.
He must be the founding member of Jews4Jihad.
How am I wrong? Christianity is polytheistic, Islam is monotheistic . Israel was a theocracy during the times of the temple.
> How am I wrong? Christianity is polytheistic, Islam is monotheistic .
It’s debatable whether Christianity is polytheistic – and there are prominent rabonim down through the centuries on both sides of the debate. Anyway, your premise seems to be that polytheism “makes less sense than” monotheism. Can you defend that premise? If nothing else, polytheistic religions don’t have to deal with the Problem of Evil.
> You can’t compare it to judaism.
I realize you mean this in a rhetorical sense, but to take it literally, sure you can. Both Judaism and Chrisitanity are organized religions. They share a large number of theological arguments. They share many of the same beliefs about God.
> When the temple is going to be restored everyone will have to respect the Jewish law.
By “Jewish law” you mean “halachah,” no? The people who saw the Beis HaMikdahs destroyed expected to see it restored within their lifetimes – interestingly, much like the first Christians expected the Second Coming within their lifetimes. Both we and the Christians have been waiting for two thousand years, every generation expecting Moshiach. So far, they’ve all been wrong. It only takes three to make a chazakah, so it seems safe to assume that we probably won’t see Moshiach either.
Anyway, what does the theoretical theocracy of the yemei haMoshaich have to do with anything? Is the claim that Moshiach will restore the Jewish monarchy supposed to be a disproof of Christianity? By that logic, the claim of the Second Coming is a disproof of Judaism.
There were many Jewish ideas that Christians adopted. Monotheism makes more sense because there can only be one God. Being that you don’t believe in moshiach it appears you are a textbook heretic so the convo with you ends here
> Monotheism makes more sense because there can only be one God.
Because…?
> Being that you don’t believe in moshiach it appears you are a textbook heretic so the convo with you ends here.
Too bad. I apologize for the cheap shot, but do you always only have conversations with people who already agree with you?
Judaism makes no sense either
Do you belong to a religion of any sort?
The last I looked God had not restored the temple or annointed a king in Israel. Neither has the Messiah come the 1st or 2nd time, depending on y0ur way of thinking. A quick review of the history of theocracy for the last 2,000 years reveals less than desirable results. But, as we all know, the only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Proceed.
From a physical standpoint we were conquered by the Babylonians and the Romans. Why did God allow that to Happen? Because of Jews sinful ways and our inability to get along, that is where the Jews aren’t learning from history. When the Jews heeded gods commandments as a united nation with one heart, that’s when the Jews succeeded in history. You could make the point that Jews might have erred in appointing kings, instead of listening to the prophets word of God.
Our theocracy was a direct commandment of God. It wasn’t like the theocracies of rome or of todays in the middle east. The bible even specifically wrote laws concerning establishing courts and punishments for violating sins. What’s more from a Jewish perspective there was consent of the governed. The Jews collectively were willing to sacrifice certain natural rights to be a the subjects of God’s torah commandments.
“Our theocracy was a direct commandment of God. It wasn’t like the theocracies of rome or of todays in the middle east.”
…They believed that their theocracies were directed by God, too.
But we colectively subjected to gods rule originally God was the Jewish king
True. The only difference is that we are correct, and they are not.
And since that sounds highly conceited, I will note that the claimed basis for our religion is qualitatively different than any other one in the world, as noted in every stupid kiruv seminar.
And since you must agree to that, it is at least a difference.
> I will note that the claimed basis for our religion is qualitatively different than any other one in the world, as noted in every stupid kiruv seminar.
No. As the Kuzari points out, it is different from the claimed origins of Christianity and Islam. There are other religions that claim mass revelation to the entire nation.
Which religions? And do they claim that they are the descendants of that group who was mass revealed to?
Most famously the Aztecs who claimed that their god led the entire nation to the site of what became Mexico City. And yes, they did beelvie they were the descendants of those who had witnessed the god lead the nation to the plateau.
Hmmm. I’ve never heard of that. Interesting.
So what is your theory of why only some religions have been able to do that? What sociological factors have to be present for it to work?
Dan’s never heard of the Aztecs.
Neither have most of the people who think the Kuzari principle holds any water.
tova:
And presumably you did believe in the torah before you found this out about the aztecs. And just finding out about the aztecs, that is what did it for you.
are you referring to the supposed mesorah supposedly passed on from parents to child about witnessing har sinai? And how hundreds of thousands of people witnessed it and passed it on to their kids in an unbroken oral traditional chain?
Didn’t happen. Check out Nechemia pereck 8 when Ezra “reteaches” the torah to klal yisroel. After they all “Forgot” it. So clearly the unbroken chain idea is false, based on evidence in the very tanach.
Even if you take that literally, it still only makes sense if there was a divine revelation en masse at some point.
Because the religion clearly had already existed before that. There was a functioning community in bavel, and these people all knew they were jews who had been expelled from israel 70 years earlier, where they had practiced their jewish religion, with a king and a temple.
It doesn’t require that at all.
After all, you’re willing to concede that every other ethnic and religious group lacks such a mass revelation, but they still had social cohesion.
The Kuzari claim is only convincing to someone with a deep emotional need to find a rationalization for faith.
> Why did God allow that to Happen? Because of Jews sinful ways and our inability to get along,
The Romans didn’t conquer Yerushalayim because the Jews were sinning by not playing nice with each other. They conquered Yerushalayim because the defenders were too busy fighting and killing each other to mount an effective defense.
which is both being sinful and not getting along. there were actually 4 groups
Actually it’s quite simple – the Romans conquered Yerushalayim because we were dumb enough to rebel against them. Even if we had been united, I doubt we would have won, not against Rome. As a friend of mine once expounded, “It’s against halacha to be stupid.”
What about Babylon?
Same thing. We rebelled, got our nether regions booted.
I thought it was more like the jews rose up in rebellion against a far superior army and got their butts handed to them by the roman army.
More people have been murdered by states in the name of no god (communism, fascism etc) than in the name of religion. (I”m not supporting killing people in the name of either ie religion or not religion).
And democracies have done their fair share too.
B”D in the time of Moshiach, Moshiach will be king of Israel, and we will all heed him out of love, as will the rest of the world.
How are chareidim destroying the state of Israel? Many Chareidim emigrated to Israel way before the state was formed. Chareidim can’t have a normal job, because they have to go to the army. Chareidim should follow a certain agenda because it was forced on them? If you think about it many of the secular zionists are kind of communist.
Yeah, that is kind of a good point.
They can’t go the army, because it isn’t hospitable to them (consider the recent issue with mandatory kol isha), and they can’t work without going to the army.
I agree that there are some crazy chareidim but many join the army and pay their taxes.
As a Charedi that lives near Meah Shearim in Jerusalem, I find this post to and comments to be a bit superficial and stereotypical. I, along with all my Charedi relatives and friends, and most of my community, work, pay taxes (Israeli and USA in my case), and don’t protest. And when I say Charedim, I mean long peyos and beards with furry hats and long coats even on hot summer days.
I see the protests all the time and it is usually a group of 10 men and then bored teenagers and children tag along. It only gets out of hand when the police start abusing their power as when I witnessed a women getting clubbed in the back of her knees for no reason as she was walking her baby home. That’s when the riot started that day (but still was limited to about 30 people, including some non-religious Jews that joined that scuffle with police).
Anyway, hat is being talked about in this post is about a minority of Charedim of maybe a few hundred families at most that are very strict regarding the women. I personally don’t know any people who are that strict with women and I live among these Charedim you claim do so. My wife works, my brother’s wife works, and a lot of my woman relatives work too. All Charedim and all paying their taxes.
So your stereotypes are just stereotypes and does not apply across the board.
So are Charedim destroying Israel? In my opinion, if you look at the destruction of Israel as being a fiscal issue, then yes, maybe more Charedim should be working. But I tend to look at Israel as facing much bigger issues from its enemies abroad than from within. Israel has problem from within as well, but saying that it’s mainly from Charedim is crazy. Have any of you read up on the situation of Israel’s youth and the rate of drug abuse and suicide.
Sorry for my rant. But just as a side note, if the Beis Hamikdash was built and if we had a real Beis Din, there would be more than just protests about Shabbos by a few people. There would be stoning-to-death for anyone caught desecrating the Sabbath. So it’s not so bad that 10 guys go chanting “Shabbos” at some cars driving by.
While I agree that it is not helpful to stereotype, it’s still safe to say that haredim, as a group, are net drains on the system. This is compounded by their evasion of military service, which makes them national security free-riders.
That said, I don’t think this means catastrophe for Israel. The exponential population growth is unsustainable, as is the haredi drain on the system. These imbalances can be corrected in a civil manner.
You make a fair point. Arabs are allowed to have full Israeli citizenship but they are not allowed to join the army. Yet they are allowed to pursue any job they want to. The Arabs have plenty of kids also, is that a threat to the state of Israel? Why is it that Arabs have more rights then many chareidi Jews have? Because the government has a bunch of self hating Jews. ???? ???
The Arabs can’t join the army for obvious reasons. Their fertility is also a problem. Focusing on haredim is just an admission that it’s easier to criticize your own people than a people you’ve displaced.
The question is why do Arabs have more rights to pursue jobs than chareidim. You don’t need a draft in order to get people to join the army. Americans join because theyre patriotic.
Americans join because they’re poor. Upper middle class kids do not join the army. Not even as officers. When you institute a draft, you get riots in the street. (See also: Civil War, War in Vietnam) WWII was the exception because the Japanese bombed Pearl Habor.
What do you mean for “obvious reasons”? Because they hate us and are a security risk. So why is it ok for them not to recognise the state yet receive benefits.
And don’t worry about their fertility. It’s dropping as ours is rising. (Many of the forecasts were based on the fact that Arab fertility rates were expected to rise and Jewish fertility was expected to fall in line with the western world, ie to below replacement level. And the opposite happened). Again thank Gd for the Chareidim.
They can’t join the army? That is a lie. They don’t have to sign up for the army, but they can voluntere in the army. Never heard of Bedouin and Druze signing up for the army?
> if the Beis Hamikdash was built and if we had a real Beis Din, there would be more than just protests about Shabbos by a few people. There would be stoning-to-death for anyone caught desecrating the Sabbath. So it’s not so bad that 10 guys go chanting “Shabbos” at some cars driving by.
There’s a reason that vigilantism is illegal.
Anyway, that seems more to be a reason to keep the Beis Hamikdash from being built and for preventing the establishment of a “real Beis Din” then it is an argument that “it’s not so bad that 10 guys go chanting “Shabbos” at some cars driving by.”
The charedim simply understand, as Chaz does, that funerals are great opportunities to pick up hot, vulnerable women.
I never know what she’s doing up there. Ma! The meatloaf! F**k!
LOL, was going to make the same reference but you beat me to it.
Sounds like you nailed it. Women is devastated and crying, along comes Yankel, put his arm around her and before you know it, he’s boning her behind the mausoleum. Or Yankel is burying a relative, shpitzel gets on her knees out of pity and starts swallowing loads like a racehorse. Any more romantic chareidi ideas?
swallowing what like a racehorse?
I hope so badly she said Shehekol.
U Avi,
I believe the correct bracha would be yotzer ha-adam, possibly boreh pri ha-etz 🙂 🙂 🙂 Maybe a topic for another post?
If you’re stuck on an island and forced to engage in cannibalism, you say “shehakol”. There’s something to U Avi’s argument.
On the other hand, “haetz” is just hilarious!
Any Rabbis in the house to resolve this machlokes?
Here is a situation in Israel where some women have imposed a “Taliban” type of existence upon themselves against the wishes of their “Chareidi” husbands.The video is in Hebrew but can be understood visually even if your Hebrew comprehension is limited.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid949801312001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAACEco_Vk~,9bOat4XcfB_88ri1a3UMdKnLpH9a
Here is a tragic situation in Israel where some women have imposed a Taliban type existence upon themselves and their female offspring against the wishes of their “Chareidi” husbands.It’s in Hebrew but is visually understandable even if your Hebrew comprehension is limited.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid949801312001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAACEco_Vk~,9bOat4XcfB_88ri1a3UMdKnLpH9a
Correct link to the above comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1oIs75ASok&feature=youtu.be
Authentic Judaism calls of Jews to live in Israel rules by a frum King and the Sanhedrin. We survived that way for close to 1000 years, minus the periods of general rebellion against God’s rules led by the corrupt kings.
Modern theocracies aren’t necessarily all that bad. Take Saudi Arabia as a prime example. For a practicing muslim, it sounds like heaven on earth. A place where everyone is forced to follow sharia, free of impure Jews or heretical churches. Despite their political incorrectness, America and Europe spend their time licking their @sses.
I’m quite sure that Israel could function very well under religious law.
The Judaism which ruled Israel of antiquity was simply not the same as what we practice today, not even close to it. There is no evidence of a Sanhedrin existing back then. Our king was rarely “frum” in the sense of today – the Tanach generally regards a frum king as one who forbids idol worship.
This shouldn’t be surprising. Judaism was seriously influenced by the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Christians, and Muslims (just for starters) – all of which led to us becoming what we are today, which looks wholly different from our ancient near-eastern existence as found in the Davidic kingdom.
So in other words, we have never lived under halacha as it exists today. The closest thing is the period of the Exilarchs, but again, that had no relationship to antiquity.
True but the laws of the Torah were always the same.
Samael,
Judaism pre-dated the cultures and religions you mention. Yes, the actual practice was different, but that is because we were in our own land with our temple. The vast majority of the 613 mitvot (and their subcategories) were relevant to Jews living in our land with an agricultural society and our a temple, so therefore they aren’t applicable.
What we are left with today, are the few basic laws which have evolved and grown with the times as best we could under the guidance of poskim throughout the generations.
Oh, it was much more than an issue of relevance or economics. When things “grow with the times,” they do so because of other cultural influences. There have been many, many times throughout our history where said poskim took a good idea from another culture and brought it into Judaism, drastically shaping our religion.
Yes, in the strictest sense we “predated” most of these cultures (although that can be debated with Greece). But the influence we took from them has stuck. Even if we had our own land with a Temple again – even if we (somehow) had an agricultural society again – Judaism would still look absolutely nothing like it did in antiquity. There have been too many cultural changes over the years.
Samael,
Yes, Judaism has changed and evolved to the point of seemingly no return to what it was. Yet if one believes that Mashiach can revive the dead and rebuild the Beit Hamikdash, one could logically assume that he’s have the knowledge and power to re-unite Jewry into following the proper observance.
Under Mashiach’s rule, Israel and the rest of the world is supposed to be ruled by a form of a theocratic monarchy.
So the question: is “proper observance” how we lived in the Late Bronze Age? Or the modern era? A different one? Or none of the above? One might argue that the theocratic monarchy you’re talking about will have undergone the same transformations as the rest of Judaism once Mashiach comes, and will look utterly dissimilar to the rule of a king of antiquity (which the N’viim/rabbis surely had in mind when they thought of Mashiach).
I’m just saying that it’s often difficult to pin down precisely what “authentic Judaism” says, certainly on a subject like political authority. Personally I am inclined to think that the Charedim have it quite wrong. But who knows?
Some charedi politicians actually agree with you that it’s better to have a secular state than a religious state! Tzivia Greenfeld (check out her wiki page), a former member of the Knesset (MK), and current MK Moshe Gafni agree on the separation of shul and state. It makes a lot of sense, actually, because what’s the point of having an official Rabbinate if everyone just follows the rulings of their own rabbis anyway?
The charedim you’re describing are just the extremists. Many are more moderate, and moving in the right direction (working more, getting more education, joining the army more, supporting political parties not run by rabbis, etc.) Rabbi Slifkin’s article on post-charedim was welcomed by many charedim. The “Taliban women” who wear black cloaks covering their whole body are being denounced by even the most far-right charedim. Eventually, charedim will be the majority, but by that point they will have become moderate enough to preserve Israel as a democratic and tolerant country.
Exactly what I wanted to say.
as one who knows what it means to live under the thumb of orthodox rabbis let me just say that as much as i respect the Talmud–the last people in the world you want ruling over you are orthodox rabbis. They are by far the most vicious, cruel, sex, sadistic ,obsessed people. Anyone living in a community run by orthodox rabbis–nothing of his is safe, not his wife, not his children not his property.
While I certainly defend the great values of the Talmud but orthodox rabbis for some reason are far from these values.
What do you define as a charedi? There are many types there are American charedi types which are different than Israelis. As for those that said that charedis don’t contribute to the economy: the American yeshivas in Israel bring in loads of tourist money from elal tickets to eating out in restaraunts, many students parents stay in the hotels don’t forget. I can tell you from experience that a student can bring in an average of about 18k Nis . Multiply that by thousands of students and that’s aloft of money. The yeshivas were one of the best investments the government made, by funding yeshivos, students bring in more money. Not all yeshivos are charedi but many are, and there are many types.
Just curious: I wonder how many of you actually live in Israel and know Charedi’s?
I am charedi and live In Jerusalem 🙂
My thoughts exactly.
Israeli feminists refuse to give up rights accorded to women before the days of full equal rights, such as the right to retire earlier than men with a full state pension. Women are also not required to serve for the same length of time in the army or national service, or the undertaking of reserve duties. Just a couple of examples of equal rights in the state for less contribution to the state. Furthermore, the likes of \”jeanne Mccarthy\” continue to read with their biased blinkers on, failing to note that both men and women can choose to use a bus service that caters to their lifestyle choices. There are alternative bus services for those who do not choose the same level of observance. It should also be noted that in some Jewish areas of the US, buses operate on the very same basis. Judaism also demands less of women than men. It can be argued that Judaism puts women on a higher level than men! And the State of Israel certainly does. Even the supposed lesser religious role of women should be seen in terms of both maintaining balance of gender roles and responsibilities (private versus public spheres) and puts all the religious demands on men. No genital cutting required for women to enter into the Covenant of Abraham, either, which in Judaism is for no other reason than a blood sacrifice, which according to the Bible was commanded by G-d! No discussion about any alleged physical benefits of the practice by Jewish sages, either, only the physical drawbacks. Maybe (ultra-Orthodox) Rabbi Boteach\’s statements that the Jews are a feminine people might tell you something. The problem with contemporary feminism is its origins and its constant demand for rights beyond what is equal, and its demand that women\’s rights be a superset of men\’s rights rather true equality. What Jewish Law tries to do is deliver an equal balance of rights and responsibilities. What is to the outsider a patriarchal way of life puts more religious (public) rights/responsibilities in the hands of men and more family/home (private) rights/responsibilities in the hands of women. Outsiders tend to focus on what they can observe in the public sphere and ignore the private balance. Of course there are always a minority of people of both genders that take advantage of their roles and the system under which they live, and much gets publicized about argued abuses, but Jewish Law is balanced and certainly does not and did not treat women as second-class citizens – although it does see men and women as having different roles and responsibilities, while according equal property rights, etc…thousands of years before women attained such rights in the so-called enlightened Western world. Lastly, please note that democracy is not a Jewish system, and that it is far from perfect. Democratic (majority) rule can all too easily turn into rule of the mob. Minority rights are often subsumed. And let\’s not forget that women have an automatic majority. Unfortunately, democracy is showing its ugly side in the Arab world. Pan-Arab religious extremism is being empowered. In Israel it is the extremism of anti-national \’enlightenment/progressivism/liberalism\’ – call it what you will – that is invariably winning the day. While in the USA, yet more anti-democratic legislation, the National Defense Authorization Act, will enable US citizens and other nationals to be kidnapped by the state without charge and even deported for torture. And the definition of a terrorist includes possessing more than seven days of food. Many more things to worry about than bogus charges of Jewish discrimination against women!
Less contribution to the state?????
Where exactly do you think all those men come from, man born of woman. And who is doing all the childrearing in addition to their paid jobs? I’d like to see you running a household of eight whilst holding down a fulltime job.
Disaster
One afternoon a man came home from work to find total mayhem in his house. His three children were outside, still in their pajamas, playing in the mud with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn all around the front yard. The door of his wife’s car was open, as was the front door to the house.
Proceeding into the entry, he found an even bigger mess. A lamp had been knocked over, and the throw rug was wadded against one wall. In the front room the TV was loudly blaring a cartoon channel, and the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing.
In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter, nosh was all over the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door. He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife.
He was worried she may be ill, or that something serious had happened. He found her lounging in the bedroom, reading a novel. She looked up at him, smiled, and asked how his day went. He looked at her bewildered and asked, “What happened here today?”
She again smiled and answered, “You know everyday when you come home from work and ask me what in the world did I do today?”
“Yes,” was his incredulous reply.
She answered, “Well, today I didn’t do it.”
Success is no Subsitute for Familial Harmony (just the first part)
by: Rabbi Y Y Jacobson
I agree but how does this contribute to the State?
Raising the next generation is not a major, major contribution to society and the state?
Why in the world are you using the internet, then? Don’t you despise of it?
Oh the irony: a bunch of Jews from chutz le’aretz discussing the contribution of the chareidim to the state of Israel. Every Jew that lives in Israel contributes socially, economically and spiritually, by virtue of their existence here (except of course for the suicidal ultra-left, another story)
The first thing is that in the global picture the chareidim with their high birthrates are going to save us all. Gd bless the chareidim. Secondly, many of the stereotypes are just that: plenty of chareidim work, pay taxes and do the army. Many don’t serve in the army, but many chilonim don’t serve in the army either. As for saying that the chareidim are a bigger threat to Israel than the Arabs, you should be totally ashamed of yourself. Talk about lashon hara about an entire tsibur. Arabs literally get away with murder here. In addition to the obvious (no army service, don’t pay taxes, treat their own kind like dirt, kill their daughters, etc) they literally get away with murder. Who started the Carmel forest fires? 20% of the population responsible for 40% of the traffic accidents? And many of these so-called traffic accidents are terrorist attacks. Some of their Knesset representatives are spies. And the list goes on.
On the other hand the rate of volunteerism in Israel is the highest in the world, and even higher without the numbers for Israeli Arabs, and within Israeli, the highest rate is from the Chareidi community.
And then we have Yad Sarah, Ezer Metzion, Zaka, Ezra Lamarpeh, Chesed Ve’zimra, Zichron Menachem and the list goes on: chesed organisations founded and run by Chareidim for the benefit of ALL Israelis.
So yes, there are some excesses and some crazy stories, that the media just LOVES to jump on. Because after all, “chareidi organisation saves the state $320million a year” is just not a media sensation.
Yad Sarah, for example
Yad Sarah (Hebrew: ?? ????) is the largest national volunteer organization in Israel.[3] Employing over 6,000 volunteers,[3][4] with a salaried staff of 150,[2] Yad Sarah serves over 350,000 clients each year.[5] It is best known for its free loans of over 244,000 pieces of medical and rehabilitative home-care equipment annually,[2] enabling sick, disabled, elderly and recuperating patients to live at home.[4] This saves the country’s economy an estimated $320 million in hospital fees and long-term care costs each year.[3][6]
According to an independent survey, one out of every two Israeli families has been helped by Yad Sarah.[6][7][8] The organization serves Jews, Christians, Muslims and Druze,[2] as well as tourists with disabilities.[9][10] Its menu of free or nominal-fee services include lending of medical and rehabilitative equipment, oxygen service, wheelchair transportation, national emergency alarm system, services for the homebound, legal aid for the elderly, geriatric dentistry, day rehabilitation centers, a play center for special needs children, and an education and recreation club for retirees.[2][7][6] Yad Sarah receives no government funding,[2][5] but relies on donations to meet its $23 million operating budget.[1][10] It exports its expertise to developing countries and has established similar models in various countries. Yad Sarah is a recipient of the Israel Prize and has been awarded advisory status to the United Nations Economic and Social Council.
Ezer LaMarpeh
In 1997, Rabbi Firer was awarded the Israel Prize, for his special contribution to society and the State of Israel.[1] The body of judges who awarded the Israel Prize to Rav Firer presented its rationale as follows:
“… Since the inception of Ezra LeMarpeh , Rav Firer has been investing great efforts on its development and growth, sparing himself nothing, helping tens of thousands in all fields of medical help, while activating an extended framework of volunteers. For all those who call on him for help, Rav Firer himself serves as a source of inspiration: He has unusual levels of energy, accompanied by patience, cheerfulness and serenity, which are essential conditions for working with the sick, the elderly and the needy, who more than anything else need emotional support. The Ezra LeMarpeh Organization assists each and every person who turns to it for help, without any discrimination. Jews and non-Jews, religious and secular – all of them people who were created in the image of G-d – are welcome with an equally warm and loving attention. From the crack of dawn till well past midnight, the people at Ezra LeMarpeh are working to fulfill the needs of those who turn to them for help – the sick, the needy and others. Among them are also doctors, who usually accept the Rav’s suggestions and referrals. Rav Firer established and built a system for medical assistance to the sick, who come from the entire social spectrum. For years, he has been dedicating all his time and strength to acts of lovingkindess, of a scope and variety that are noteworthy, with unparalleled determination and devotion. He serves as a loyal and trustworthy address for anyone who needs medical assistance of any kind whatsoever. Rav Firer is a model of loving your fellow man, devotion and cheerfulness, as is manifest in the way he welcomes every person who comes to his office for consultation and advice, at all hours of the day and night. His continuous work, on a purely voluntary basis, without thought for any kind of remuneration, has become famous across Israel and also outside the country. Many tens of thousands of people who needed and need his help, found and still find in him a loyal support. Rav Firer is an outstanding person, head and shoulders above the average man, in his own actions and those that are carried out through his power and inspiration, for the benefit of the individual and society in general. For all of the above, Rav Firer is worthy of the Israel Award for 1997 for a Life’s Work – A Unique contribution to society and to the country.”
In 2002, Rabbi Firer was awarded an Honorary Doctorate from the Weizmann Institute.
On 10 June 2010, at the Rambam Summit, Prof. Rafi Beyar, Director of Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa, honored Rabbi Firer with the Rambam Award 2010.
Two other random points:
Secular companies have set up workplaces to employ Chareidi women, with conditions that are suitable for them. Why? Because it makes good business sense for them.
Even if you don’t agree with someone receiving government aid, that money is going into circulation in the Israeli economy, via the purchase of food and other basics. Thus, supporting local businesses.
What are you doing for Israel?
Most of the Charedim, at least the ones who refuse to work, must have not have gotten to the part in the Pirkei Avot about combining Torah study with an occupation lest you succumb to sin. And sure enough, many Charedim are caught in all sorts of sexual and financial scandals.