I made a comment yesterday about how I wouldn’t date the girl who posted the shidduch resume, but I would be down with making out and I’m sure most anyone would, why not, a little tongue slurping with some cute girl is always fun – I happened to have been fooling around. I don;t just make out with random girls – I find kissing to be incredibly romantic and save it for serious relationships (IE marriage – I’ve never touched a girl besides for my aunt and she’s a bit old for me) but someone got his panties in a bind over my comment and told me I’m not frum and it;s kind of true, at least by conventional standards.I love the argument in the comments from two different people:
Yossi Says:
No Donyel, then he’s not Orthodox… being shomer-negia is not a nice chumra for the few and pious. It’s basic halacha no less than Shabbos, kashrus and other essentials that make a person frum. If anything, it’s even more important, Shmiras Habris connecting to yesod, holding up a person’s entire spiritual foundation.
Please read pages 15 and 16 of this eBook Dear Bochur to get a more clear picture about Shomer Negia:
http://www.guardureyes.com/GUE/PDFs/eBooks/Dear%20bachur.pdf
To “make out” with an unmarried Jewish girl, a nidda, one of the arayos (!!!) is a most serious aveira, possibly a yaharog val yaavor. And to have full relations with one is to be chayav kareis.
November 11, 2010 at 3:43 AM [edit]Peta, GYE, and people pushing for the soda tax, you kanoyim are all the same. You externalize your problems onto some scapegoat, and then, like all good avoda zarahs, run roughshod over the truth to keep up the image in your mind that your random cause can really save you.
Offthedwannab says:
Let’s examine your claims:
“It’s basic halacha no less than Shabbos, kashrus and other essentials that make a person frum.”
Shomer negiyah is not even midioraysa. It’s a takanah. For some, it is difficult to keep, but it doesn’t make you not frum. It’s a Ta’avah like any other. Are you oiver Bittul Torah, Lashon Harah? These are extremely serious things, more than something like shomer negeyah. And yet everyone has avak lashon hara.“If anything, it’s even more important, Shmiras Habris connecting to yesod, holding up a person’s entire spiritual foundation.”
The reason no serious kabbalist makes such an outrageous claim as S”N being worse than the foundation of our faith, Shabbos, is because you misunderstand what the term “yesod” represents in kabbalah. (It is not your yesod, netzach and hod “combine” to form yesod for, among other things, creation of life.)“To “make out” with an unmarried Jewish girl, a nidda, one of the arayos (!!!) is a most serious aveira, possibly a yaharog val yaavor. And to have full relations with one is to be chayav kareis.”
You are misrepresenting the facts here to push your agenda. Sex isn’t assur because she’s unmarried. (Rambam says it’s misah beiday shamayim so that Jewish women won’t become zonos, i.e a takanah). It’s assur if she’s a niddah. So, sexual relations with a niddah gets Kares, regardless of marital status. As to “making out”: Not being a specific halachic term, the seriousness would vary based on the action done. However, it definitely isn’t yaharog ve’al yaavor according to accepted poskim. How can you insinuate that it is? You show a careless attitude towards halacha and people by using it to push your agenda.
Again Yossi comes back (I think he’s just trying to sell his book)
i’ll even translate word for word what the Chofetz Chaim writes:
“That which we wrote that one is obligated to give his life to avoid transgressing arayos is not limited to intercourse alone. But even embracing and kissing (chibuk v’nishuk) with any of the arayos or a non-Jew or a nidda falls under the category of yaharog val yavor, for any matter that’s forbidden because of idolatry, sexual immorality, and murder, even it’s not an act related to these not three punishable by death, one is still required to give his life rather than transgress the negative prohibition of ‘dlo sikrevu lgalos erva’, for these things lead to gilui erva. From this it comes one that those who sin with niddos, arayos, and non-Jewis are transgressing a severe transgression at the expense of their souls that the law requires they should rather give up their lives before transgression, even if they are oines. Additionally, one is chayav kareis on this issur even if the loose girl is un-married, for as it’s explained (he cites the source) , there is no difference between the unmarried woman or married woman regarding niddah: anyone who comes upon a niddah (in intercourse) is chayav kareis, as its explained that all unmarried women today are in the category of niddos. We will now elaborate on this severe transgression to demonstrate before everyone its heavy punishment so that one who is for many years without a woman, living in places where people are loose in matters of arayos, will not be seduced, rather his eyes will see and his heart will understand and and he return (to Hashem) and be healed.”
there you have it, the Chofetz Chaim writing b’feirush that chibbuk v’nishuk with an unmarried Jewish girl, a niddah, is yaharog val yavor.
may we take his words to heart
Looks like I don;t hold much of the chofetz chaim, though I kinda like the guy and his yeshivos seem to be part of the very small list of sane one’s.
So who is frum? What the hell does frum mean anyway, in my mind it’s been hijacked to mean something completely different than its original intention. These days one is considered frum merely by look and association alone, just don;t tell anyone you make out with cute girls, rebuke people about it and then proceed to use the dangerous internet where you’re likely to over the issur of random porn pop-up ads and make sure to look moderately frum.
Frum has become a social thing, it’s a look and a sound. For most Jews frum means taharas hamishpacha (only for married people) shabbos and kashrus – heck in San Francisco modern orthodox couples mostly move in together prior to marriage and they are still considered frum and I still consider them frum.
If you really consider what people do on a daily basis that is against the Torah there probably aren’t too many frum people today. I would probably be killed on a weekly basis for being warned not to pick out the good jelly beans by kosher aidim who would then turn me over to the bais din to have me tried and killed – that bais din would likely kill way more than 1 every 70 years. So I’m not frum, sue me, I’m modern orthodox, I keep 100% kosher, daven three times a day and I don’t hug or kiss girls when I say hello like so many people do here.
But yeh, once in a while the yetzer harah sends along a super cuttie who’s ready and willing and I swear he made me do it. Once in a while he sends along some juicy loshon horah that may not even be so, like the fact that Rubashkins brother in law was found guilty of extortion yesterday (pretty crappy eh) and I can’t resist telling you. But isn;t loving your fellow Jew, doing acts of kindness and trying to bring light and happiness more important than following random halachos that ancient rabbis found by deriving sources out of random texts that only a few people study and read on a daily basis. Yes that’s heretical, but it’s how I feel when some Jews who could be helping klal yisroel gain achdus instead of finding ways to tell people they aren’t frum. Nitpicky Jews who need to follow every single halacha that every single rabbi ever came up with on their free time are not going to bring moshiach, they are just going to bring more obsessive Jews who want to separate the sexes and control our lives with their stringent stupidity.
Oh and I should say that I have a heter for make out sessions, since it’s only derech chiba if I actually like the girl, I call it shalom bayis practice and I firmly believe that chosson and kallah classes should have shalom bayis in the bedroom practice sessions so their wives don;t end up on Calm Kallahs 10 years after they have been married wondering why they never had an orgasm.
Last sentence = priceless
Hesh, cute joke about me trying to sell an out-of-print book published in the 1890s but if your readers follow the comments in their original context they’ll see that I brought up the Chofetz Chaim’ seifer and translated the piece only after the other fellow questioned if any accepted poisek would ever say such a thing.
as it happens i don’t care for the label frum. i prefer something like “trying to be Torah observant.”
i apologize if i caused you pain with my words. i was only trying to make a point that pgam-habris is right up there in severity with other widely accepted severe aveiros in the frum community like chillul-Shabbos.
it irks me terribly that in some communities “shomer-negia” is made out (no pun intended) to be nothing less than a nice practice or chumra. no friends, it’s far from it. being shomer is an essential part of keeping halacha and kedudas yisroel
maybe I should have phrased my words better and if so I ask your mechila, in sincerity.
kol tuv.
Don;t worry I only like to sound like I’m offended, it makes for good posts, I don’t hate anyone, mildly dislike, but hate – definitely not.
Sounding offended makes for good rants, kind of like George Costanza looking annoyed to pretend he’s working harder.
Whoa. This thing really blew up. My main point was not the halacha, it was Yossi’s approach to the whole issue I was contesting, i.e. making being frum contingent on following Shomer Negiah. And the reason his organization, Guard Your Eyes, does so, i.e. by making a psychological problem (addiction) into a religious one. The way out of their problem is not by building up the issur so they’ll be scared to do it, it’s by working on the underlying cause of the addiction.
[I have to concede, he did call me out when I asked for a modern posek who says shomer negiah is yeharog veal yeaver by quoting the Chofetz Chaim. My assumption of modern is a living major American posek, but I seem to not have made that clear, since modern can also be relative.]
Not to mention the way he sets himself up so he can’t lose. Thoughts about the Beast With Two Backs and fantasies are an inevitable, inescapable function of the human brain. It’s wired into us. It’s not just the urge to reproduce or the Evil Impulse. It’s how we’re put together on a fundamental biological level.
So what do groups like this do? They make something perfectly natural that happens to every healthy man a hundred times a day and turn it into a sin that’s worse than murder. It keeps the marks feeling guilty, watched and frightened. This makes them agree to pretty much whatever you tell them to do. It also fosters a nice neat obsession which feeds back into the thoughts that start the whole cycle.
Glad to hear it Heshy, thought that might be the case, but wanted to ask mechila to be sure. Though of course you already forgave me last night when you said the Ribbono Shel Oilam tefilla by krias shema al hamita, forgiving every Jew, right? 😉 That might be a good topic, too! Are we really sincere when we say that? It’s an incredible, sometimes difficult t0 say, tefillah. Imagine some guy does something terribly hurtful to you, doesn’t care, doesn’t even ask mechila, but that night you’re supposed tell hashem you forgive him by krias shema al hamita??
It’s amazing, and encouraging, sometimes what the Torah asks us to aspire for.
OfftheDwannaB, we sure made a storm, eh ? i appreciate your “concession.” i should clarify guardyoureyes isn’t “my” organization. i simply linked it to my name because it’s got a lot of good information there regarding the severity of these types of issurim, negia, shmiras-einayim, shmiras-habris, shmiras-machshava etc. etc.
i’m not an addict as many of you seem to assume. i wouldn’t have anything to lose admitting if i were considering i’m anonymous anyway, but b”h i’m not. Non-addicts go to the site for shmiras-einayim chizuk. in our generation we all need, addicts or not
good shabbos everyone
I did get a few hits on my blog from it. Thanks.
Frum is just a euphemism for person who wears a costume.
If by frum you mean devout or pious, as in you are are committed to the observance of 613 commandments (Wiki definition), of course you are not frum and nor are most of the others who claim to be.
“frum” Jews selectively pick and choose which of the 613 commandments to adhere to, and in your case at least, you chose something enjoyable (making out). In other cases people may choose to gossip or make fun of others, maybe to cheat, steal, or lie.
The one defining characteristic of frum Jews is their costume(s), and ultimately, it is the only barometer by which they measure the quality of your fruminess.
Vos iz “making out?’
It’s kind of like what the rosh yeshivah did to you in his office. But with girls or boys who are your own age. And without the threats. And you didn’t feel filthy afterward.
I actually seem to recall seeing that exact definition on wiki.
I am with you Hesh. The Philosophy of language has made this play of definition a rich and juice game. “Who or what is a Jew”, “Who is a official Rabbi”, “What is the definition of ‘is'”? And when talking to somebody who has a different idea than you, you might as well be talking to the wall.
It’s like the following joke: A man was complaining that his buttered toast always ended up butter-side-down when dropped. His friend argued saying that it probably just seemed that way because of the trouble of cleaning up the mess.
To prove his point the man buttered another slice of toast, dropped it on the floor… and it landed butter-side-up. “Ahhh, well, i know what must have happened” the man said “i buttered the wrong side”.
We can discuss frum-keit and observance until out faces are blue, but ultimately it comes down to which Rabbi you like, geographical location, parental influence and your mood. Which makes the discussion automatically insignificant and trivial.
Don’t let this uninvited discussion on your personal habits throw you off your game. You are as religious, orthodox, frum and moral as you can be. We all have our own monkey on our back but you are a good person.
Be well
How could such a sensible comment end up here?
No screening
wow , frumsatire “doesn’t hold much of the chofetz chaim” though he “kinda likes the guy”.
do you have ANY idea who the chafetz chaim was? He was a kadosh v’tahor, the tzadik-hador of his time.
and frumsature kinda likes the guy.
show some kovod hatorah man.
Actrually I know all about Yisroel Mayer – he was the top dawg, apparently there is a picture floating around where his wife wasn;t wearing a sheitle, apparently the famous picture of him in the seforim is fake and I;ve seen this random picture of him walking down some stairs, but we have no idea if it;s really him.
you should tremble at such a bizayon-hatorah. absolutely disgusting.
what more can I say? anything else will simply be answered with leitzanus mocking torah and tzaddikim
the first pasuk of tehillim warns of not sitting with “moshav leitzim.” that’s what this site is, a moshav leitzim. i’ve sat here long enough.
I’m sorry, are you for real? Or have you just gotten through The Abridged Guide to Trolling Jewish Websites, and is this your first time attempting to get some LuLz from some basement-dwellers in Lakevood?
But isn;t loving your fellow Jew, doing acts of kindness and trying to bring light and happiness more important than following random halachos that ancient rabbis found by deriving sources out of random texts that only a few people study and read on a daily basis.
Yes, I think Jesus Christ said that.
Wow, I’m so glad you said that Henoch! I was about to quote that very same passage & specifically point to Jesus’s story about the Good Samaritan, the subtleties of which observant Jews are in a unique position to immediately understand.
Actually, Jesus said that the whole Tanach could be summed up with two commandments. The first is to:
“‘love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.”
And the second is to “love your neighbor as yourself.”
When asked who qualified as a neighbor, he told the story of the Good Samaritan, a person who was not considered to be a Jew by the majority of Jews. Thus he expanded the concept of “loving your fellow Jew” to loving all people.
And avoiding immoral conduct certain qualifies under the first point.
I didn’t mean I thought of the story of the Good Samaritan in a negative way, Catholic Mom. It is absolutely one of my favorite parts of the New Testament. :^)
I know. It’s just that Jesus was no hippie. He didn’t say “forget the Law, it’s a downer. Let’s just sit around and sing kumbaya and validate ourselves.” On the contrary, he called people to a much higher and harder law of perfect love “which casts out all sin.”
Actually, Judaism does view the story of the Good Samaritan in a bad light — it slams Judaism for its preoccupation with commandment keeping.
well that is something we like to slam, is it not? Most radical ideas get slammed by people less radical. Do your thing tho…
Ordinary Christians I have talked to about this parable in real life don’t have ~any idea~ that commandment keeping has anything to do with the story, though. Much less that it would possibly cast a bad light upon the same.
What I mean to say is that, if you ask them WHY exactly the first two men passed by the wounded man, they honestly have no idea. Indifference? Sheer cussedness? Bad character? Who knows?
Admittedly, my sample over the years has not been very thorough, now that I think about it.
I have talked face-to-face with two Catholics who didn’t know very much about the Bible, one supposedly Fundamentalist Christian who imagined she knew quite a bit, one indifferent semi-Christian and one New Age Christian over the years about this parable. Each knew the bare bones of the story and NONE had any notion as to the motivations of the first two passers-by other than indifference.
It was explained very clearly to all the kids at our summer (Catholic) religious school this year. Perhaps you don’t have a sufficient number of educated Christians among your acquaintances. 🙂
It has nothing to do with a “slam” at commandment keeping. Jesus kept all the commandments. Furthermore, no violation of the commandments is called for in the story. Like most of his teachings, it was about self-righteousness versus actual righteousness. The first two pass by because they are pre-occupied with their own importance and righteousness. One is a priest presumably going to offer sacrifice in the temple. The other is a Levite. What is most important to them is to maintain their status — their standing in the community. Then a Samaritan comes by — a group whose status is so low that they are hardly considered Jews at all. Yet the Samaritan does the right thing — he shows care and compassion for the injured Jew.
The point of the parable is indeed the expanding of the realm of “avodah Israel” to include all humanity. It is a minor point that Jesus plays this off against the self-righteousness of the two who pass by, which is why not all may be fully aware of this aspect of the parable.
The deacon who read the gospel and explained the meaning to the kids described it this way. The Jews felt towards the Samaritans the way some Catholics feel about the Protestants — that they are less than real Christians (or in the case of the Samaritans, real Jews.) It would be as if Jesus said that a bishop passed by and then a cardinal, neither wanting to get involved because they might get their vestments dirty and not be allowed to participate in a big televised Papal mass. Then a Protestant passed by and did the right thing. Which of them was the real Christian?
LOL, I will not disagree with you about the insufficient number of Christians I’ve had the opportunity to discuss this parable with.
Only in the past couple of years have I gotten to be friendly with any Christians who take their faith seriously. If I were to ask THEM about the parable, I would no doubt get much better answers.
However, let me tell you what ~I~ think that the story is about. I don’t think that the priest and the Levite passed the injured traveler because they were self-righteous.
They passed him by because they they were conscientious about keeping the Torah, and were concerned to avoid ritual impurity.
Who knew what was wrong with this guy crumpled at the side of the road? He might have a skin disease. He might even be a corpse.
The point of the story in my mind is that the priest and the Levite believed they were doing the right thing in God’s eyes by following the ~letter~ of the Torah, while the Samaritan believed he was doing the right thing by following the ~spirit~ of the Torah.
Of course, but the point of the story was not that Jews should not follow the letter of the law. The point was the the spirit of the law supercedes the letter and further (and this IS an important point in the parable) that pride in keeping the letter of the Law should be humbled before those who DO keep the spirit, even if you consider them to be on a ritually lower level than you.
Elsewhere (in Mathew) Jesus says: “[Don’t consider yourself on a higher level than everyone else because you can say to yourselves] “we have Abraham for our father; because God can raise up children of Abraham from these stones.” In other words — if you’re not keeping the spirit of the law, being children of Abraham will not save you.
Those are good points, Catholic Mom. :^) This blog is so great for being exposed to a diverse variety of viewpoints, I think.
Hesh, shouldn’t this tell you something about the nature of your views?
Mahla was about to almost quote your words from the new testament. Catholic Mom is agreeing with you and saying you’re right. Now she is obviously a very respectable and moral person, but does it not bother you that your views reflect those of yeshu?
What? Jesus also believed murder is wrong. Just because Jesus believed something doesn’t make it wrong!
Your filth ——-far away from intellegnce-chaval on your parents ,let them rest in piece and if their living -you are thier misa
etonmizrachi – who dropped you as a baby??
Yossi you are stupid idiot if u think we dont know that you are a pervert and a porn addict who covers up your guilt though your anti jerking off campaign. The Bible is man made and we are not meant to fight the urge to procreate. Get a life Yossi please!!
Who the hell are you to say who is in your club called “frum”
you are a pathetic fundamentalist who is clearly just as perverted as Rabbi Kolko and every other faker.
There’s some rational, logical, intelligent, non-redneck talk for you.
You probably think the sun is man-made too, don’t you Reb intellectual?
“Frum” is a Yiddish word that comes straight from German and means “pious.” You can thus be “frum” and not crazy right-wing Hareidi. You can be “frum” and not hold much my kabbalistic explanations of sexual behavior. Heck, you can be “frum” and not even be Orthodox. Frum Conservative Jews, for instance, walk to shul on Shabbos, keep kosher, even outside the home, and observe as many miztvos as they can, as the Conservative rabbis interpret them. Heck, I’ll bet there are frum Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, and post-denominational Jews, too. I would think that, given that Mr. Fried appears to be serious about observing mitzvos, he has every right to call himself “frum,” even if he interprets halacha differently from the crazy-rightwing hareidim and even if he falls of the wagon now and then.
…and I consider myself to be a “Frum Atheist”, though let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that Frum Atheism has anything with my being “of the tribe”. Perhaps according to Mordacai Kaplan, one could be a Frum Jew and an Atheist…
Etonmizrachi, even if you feel what Frum Satire writes is against the Torah, as I often do, it’s not the Torah way to say such a thing to a Yid! What a terrible thing to say.
but yeah, I do thing it’s appalling how Frum Satire condescendingly refers to the chafetz chaim (zeicher tzaddik v’kaddish livracha!) as someone he “kinda likes” but “doesn’t hold much of.”
simply amazing: Frum Satire doesn’t “hold much” of him.
Yeh I’m more of a Ganzfried guy, sefer hamitzvos doesn’t go deep enough, but when I really want to know halacha I look in the Tur.
Jeez you people are lame, can;t a guy fuck around anymore? This is a satire site you know?
ah, so you’re a R’ Ganzfried zt”l guy.
me too, especially his Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152:8.
May all Jews, but ESPECIALLY R’ Ganzfried’s descendants, follow what he writes:
“One should distance himself from women very, very much. It’s forbidden to make gestures with him (either with one’s hands or feet), to wink at them, to be playful with them, and to gaze at their beauty. It’s forbidden to smell perfume made for women, all the more when it’s in her hand or on her. It’s forbidden to look at the colorful clothing of a woman whom he recognizes, even if she’s not wearing them, lest he come to have hirhurim. If one encounters a woman in the street, it’s forbidden to walk behind her, but he should hurry his pace so that she’s either alongside him or behind him. One shouldn’t pass a harlot’s door, even at four amos. One who gazes even at the small finger of a woman for enjoyment, his sin is severe. IT’s forbidden to hear a woman sing or to look at her hair.”
In 152:10 he says some sharp things about negiah and in 152:13, R’ Ganzfried blasts mixed dancing and touching an unmarried Jewish woman, because, you guessed it, all unmarried Jewish women are niddos. and because it causes hirhurim and pgam habris etc etc.
glad to hear you’re also a Ganzfried guy.
ya sure wouldn’t know it reading your “satire site”
You should wander around and give me some benefit of the doubt, as I stated most of this is satire and a big exaggeration of things.
Henoch, I love your post. I was reading going “WTF?!” until the last line about Jesus.
Classic.
…and what does the venerated Yisrael Meir Kagan, zecher tzadik vesomething levracha, have to say about using abbreviated swear-words such as WTF?
You sound like you’re really kreiching to find something to complain about.
You should have just let that one go.
It turns out that “frumicate” means to put on airs. Or so says Michigan Today
Hesh, you can’t make out with a Jewish girl! It’s assur because she might be niddah. You can only fool around with Shiksas, besides, don’t you know that they are for practice?
I don’t touch girls
I see your point but how about asking her first if she is niddah?
“Nice to meet you. Mind if I ask if you are currently menstruating?”
Real smooth.
I’ve known people with noses that were sensitive enough to tell. Or get a dog. Even and dog with a lousy sense of smell can detect something that obvious.
“Excuse me, Miss. Before I shake your hand I need to let Rover sniff you.”
Your satire is about frum people, regardless of whether you are frum or not.
If I’m understanding correctly, since women don’t attend the mikvah until marriage, only married women are safe for the make-out sessions? Oy!
That’s correct. The woman married to YOU that is.
A woman married to someone else, even if she goes to the mikva, is far worse than a single girl whose a niddah.
If you can’t refrain – go for shiksas. According to the zohar they’re even worse than a niddah, (Avraham Avinu personally sees to it that you not be allowed into Heaven – unless you change your ways while still on this world), but halachically speaking it’s the least stringent (relative to the others that is).
But really, once you’re living for the moment, aren’t drugs better that anything any female can offer?
I mean I’d tell you to realize your potential for ecstacy in Torah or prayer alone, but being the open-minded people you are, you probably don’t even think that’s possible.
gee, are you ever funny michaltastik, never heard that one before that shiktzas are for practice! Nope, they’re assur too. The chofetz chaim lists non-Jewish women in addition to the niddos and arayos. See for yourself.
anonymous, yep, you’re understanding correctly: The only woman safe for a make-out session is one’s own wife when she’s not a niddah. Glad that’s clear.
i’ve concluded this site and comments are really just a great place for ridiculing and make leitzanus out of our holy torah , rachmana litzlan.
Yossi,
It is called frum satire after all. Some of it is borderline making fun of Torah, but most of it pokes fun at the stupidity of certain chumros that have become widespread and over-exaggerated in practice.
It is 99% leitzanus sprinkled with a couple tidbits of actual halacha posted by the frummer commenters every now and then. Still, much better reading than VIN or YWN in my opinion.
> i’ve concluded this site and comments are really just a great place for ridiculing and make leitzanus out of our holy torah , rachmana litzlan.
Not even close. Heshy and the commenters may not treat Torah, halachah, rabonim, etc. with the gravity you may be accustomed to, but I don’t think anyone here actually sees it as a joke.
Is now a good time for me to oust myself as a leitz? Okay, I don’t consider the Torah, Halakha, or the Rabbonim in themselves as jokes; only the way many people view them.
So please, any of you fundie trolls out there, feel free to completely skip any comment I make in the future. Der Aibeshter will surely give you a few more brownie points toward Oilam HaBo for having not participated in dialogue with this leitz.
You are being sarcastic, right? I only lived in Villiamsboig for 5 months, and even I’ve head that. I take serious offense to it, but plentyof my non-Jewish friends have been hit on by lecherous choosids looking to satisfy their infidelitous avarices. Many are even trite enough to use “excuse me, are you a prostitute?” as a come-on line.
you ask : “But isn;t loving your fellow Jew, doing acts of kindness and trying to bring light and happiness more important than following random halachos that ancient rabbis found by deriving sources out of random texts that only a few people study and read on a daily basis. ”
Nope both are important, its not up to us to decide which are more important than others. Best of luck with all of your nisyonos, we all need help sometimes just dont rationalize aveiros.
Rationalizing aveiros is for the modern orthodox, I would say that rationalizing is a level because at least you;re rationlizing and not just doing with no mind to the wrongs at all, but my madreiga is such that i ask to be placed on a higher madreiga, for instance I have a thing that I purposely don;t look at hot girls (if I’m walking I don’t look back or stare, that;s my madreiga) weird aint it
‘Nitpicky Jews who need to follow every single halacha that every single rabbi ever came up with on their free time are not going to bring moshiach, they are just going to bring more obsessive Jews who want to separate the sexes and control our lives with their stringent stupidity.”
dude that was easily one of your top 10 best lines. you encapsulated what’s wrong with the “frum” community perfectly.
I’d add to that list “Frum has become a social thing, it’s a look and a sound.” props.
Yossi- unfortunately your last comment was right on target
Whats a niddah
I believe it’s a woman in a state of menstrual impurity.
I would rather have sex than be frum. to each their own. :-/
You can do both, just don;t tell anyone and make it on time to shul every day.
Imagine a world, where the only time anyone acted according to what they knew was right and true, was when it felt good.
You “rather” is very revealing about what kind of person you are.
Etymologically, the yiddish word ‘frum’ derives from the german ‘fromm’ which means pious. It has come to mean, in the Jewish vernacular, simply ‘religious.’ This means different things for adherents of different religions, but for a Jew this means ‘observant of the commandments.’ Given that you, Heshy, are by your own identification ‘modern orthodox’ by your own admission are observant to some extent of the commandments and admirably respectful of all of them, then, by the commutative property of identity, you are, strictly speaking ‘frum.’
Are you a linguist?
And are you married? (mostly kidding; I’d just like to read more of your writing [@mytoeisonfire…])
I’m single . Would be glad to share ideas .
if you’re on fb, find me at /welcomebalance.
I find it terribly ironic that one of the ads Google has provided on this page, at least for me, is for JewishMatches, and incorporates a pretty suggestive picture…
looks like you don’t have koshernet, I never see such pritzus
I think everyone is acting irrational.
The Catholic Mom should piss off.
And for all you other crows, Heshy’s nearly 30 yrs. old, if he wants to make out or do whatever, its not of a community’s concern. We are not in the ghetto. everyone needs to get past their ghetto mindsets.
Heshy probably has done something, and it is not everyone’s business to judge him.
If Heshy gets an easy girl, then he needs to take out. He is a dude.
And, who cares about the halacha law 24/7, we are humans we are not perfect we have to go with the flow.
Plus, Heshy could become un-orthodox in and out so it does not matter.
This is the Bay Area you can do whatever you want, we do not live in Crown Heights, or Rockaway, or any other weird orthodox town.
Heshy go an marry with a gentile instead of some torah sucker, who did not go to college, because almost all frummies do not attend college or have a decent job.
:^O
I shall marry when I find the right girl, but she will most likely follow my whacky hashkafa of not really having one hashfaka, no one really knows because I only give over about 20% of the real me on this blog – I may not be anonymous, but if you read me long enough you will notice that I change my opinions and make up new one;s all of the time.
I second everything you said especially that the Catholic mom should piss off. Does this look like church forum?
islander canvas: a) are you suggesting heshy can only get an easy girl? b) maybe ur saying only easy girls hook up….tough ones do too, you just gotta up your game. Confidence brotha…
Heshy can get any girls in the Bay Area, any race…
Ok, besides easy girls there are cougars, casual encounters, or sexual workers, people from the BART. Starving chics and etc.
What is the difference anyways between easy and not, the frummies sleep with everyone including rabbis.
Anyways, what is your deal, and your “name”?
There are also girls who have standards and a libido.
There are girls who are interested in a relationship but not ready to get married.
There are ones who might be interested in marriage but want to know you better first including physically.
There are girls who aren’t easy but might want you personally.
There are girls on the rebound.
There are all sorts of girls.
To kissmeimshomer,
Heshy could get any girl, cougar, sex worker, chic, or weird race no ones heard of, chics.
BTW, what is the deal with the name you have?
I can hook up Heshy with anyone for that matter, if he is interested.
hook me up, I need someone to keep me warm on these cold November nights when the temperature drops to 55 degrees.
even if she’s a niddah? :faints: The niddah stuff is bad science. Best wishes finding someone beautiful inside and out to take the chill out of your Bay Area winter. I like what out west is doing to you.
me too – I’ve lost weight, found the job of my dreams that I didn’t know existed and I can ride my bike every day in the woods.
s(b.), what do you mean when you say that the niddah stuff is bad science?
I mean blood isn’t the boogeyman and feminine hygiene products have been invented. There’s no reason for a woman who’s a niddah to be getting blood on her fellow unless they’re being physically intimate. soap, water, products, this is not a dirty thing, it’s just a natural part of life. (I am not knocking anyone who feels time off from physical intimacy enhances their relationship. I’m knocking the idea that passing the salt during that time should be assur. How do parents hand off babies to one another? Putting the child down isn’t always practical.)
before knocking anything, get your facts straight. Not passing has zero to do with “getting blood on her fellow”. It is a gezeira to avoid more serious biblical transgressions such as physical intamcy. It isnt that time off from phyiscal intamcy enhances a relationship (though that may be the idea behind it, and may be a perk) it is because the torah says to separate.
There you go, now knock away though at least you are (more) informed
how does one be fruitful and multiply without physical intimacy? one could say by spreading the light of the torah, but i don’t think you weren’t speaking metaphorically.
passing salt is only intimate if you literally define intimate, as in, close, proximate. why not have separate houses for that time?
what is wrong with you? where did I say anything about being fruitful and multiplying without physical intimacy? and where did I say passing salt is intimite?
The Rabbis saw what was likely to cause one to slip and make a bad judgement, and for the benefit of the masses, decreed that precautions be taken.
Our Torah grants the Rabbis of their stature the ability to institute a law of this nature.
They didn’t decree that separate houses are necessary, because they did not see living under one domain as likely to cause one to fall.
You’re not in a position to “agree” or “disagree” about their assesment.
This is our Torah. It does not validate your opinions on the matter. It validates theirs.
If you don’t like it go become a Budhist.
Yankel, if you happen upon two gay men engaging in adult sexual contact, do you stone them?
G-d forbid.
If I were to have done that 2000 years ago (when there was a Jewish govt), I would have been put to death for it.
I know this is a cliche concept which many secular Jews use to justify their dismissal of the Torah’s obligations because “Look at how irrational it is”. But I hate to disappoint you, the Torah doesn’t say that.
What it says is that when one PUBLICLY violates a serious commandment of the Torah, and he is forewarned that flaunting the justice system is punishable by death, and he ignores the warning and commits the act anyway, then he is put to death.
Not for being gay, but for publicly disregarding the law of G-d.
This is our Torah. This is the truth G-d gave us. It is perfect without the slightest trace of a flaw. As is G-d.
If you don’t understand it, it is because of a defect in your own understanding and way of thinking.
There are many things the Torah says which I also have a hard time dealing with, and don’t understand. But an infinitely small human mind cannot judge G-d.
So my lack of comprehension of his words doesn’t stop me from adhering to them.
passing salt is only intimate if you literally define intimate, as in, close, proximate. why not have separate houses for that time?
what is wrong with you? where did I say anything about being fruitful and multiplying without physical intimacy? and where did I say passing salt is intimite?
The Rabbis saw what was likely to cause one to slip and make a bad judgement, and for the benefit of the masses, decreed that precautions be taken.
Our Torah grants the Rabbis of their stature the ability to institute a law of this nature.
They didn’t decree that separate houses are necessary, because they did not see living under one domain as likely to cause one to fall.
You’re not in a position to “agree” or “disagree” about their assesment.
This is our Torah. It does not validate your opinions on the matter. It validates theirs.
If you don’t like it go become a Budhist.
Yankel, if you happen upon two gay men engaging in adult sexual contact, do you stone them?
G-d forbid.
If I were to have done that 2000 years ago (when there was a Jewish govt), I would have been put to death for it.
I know this is a cliche concept which many secular Jews use to justify their dismissal of the Torah’s obligations because “Look at how irrational it is”. But I hate to disappoint you, the Torah doesn’t say that.
What it says is that when one PUBLICLY violates a serious commandment of the Torah, and he is forewarned that flaunting the justice system is punishable by death, and he ignores the warning and commits the act anyway, then he is put to death.
Not for being gay, but for publicly disregarding the law of G-d.
This is our Torah. This is the truth G-d gave us. It is perfect without the slightest trace of a flaw. As is G-d.
If you don’t understand it, it is because of a defect in your own understanding and way of thinking.
There are many things the Torah says which I also have a hard time dealing with, and don’t understand. But an infinitely small human mind cannot judge G-d.
So my lack of comprehension of his words doesn’t stop me from adhering to them.
Thanks for answering. :^)
Any time, Mahla. Michal, you wrote: “It is a gezeira to avoid more serious biblical transgressions such as physical intamcy.” Perhaps you can educate me. How is it not bad science to think that touching a niddah is a no-no? If your answer is “it says so in the Torah,” I’m glad that works for you, and I wish you well. I don’t hold by na’aseh v’nishmah. I ask questions and I think about stuff before I choose to keep it as my own. Some may not consider that Judaism; if you feel that way, that is not my concern. I mind my middos.
ok lets go through this very slowly, the reason touching a nidah is forbidden is becasue it says so in the torah, if that doesnt work for you, oh well your loss. If you dont hold by naaseh v’nishmah then you dont hold by judasim, which of course is your right, you can ascribe to any religion you’d like. what do you call it? s(b)ism?
It was YOU who said “niddah stuff is bad science” when in reality it has absolutly nothing, zero, nada to do with science good or bad. As i’ve said get your facts straight before you knock. hope this helps
You were right, I was wrong, (on this topic, and I will use this resource, which I am happy to share with you, to cite that hilchot niddah are straight-up commandments and that there are spiritual explanations sometimes offered in kallah classes to help folks warm up to the concept: yoatzot dot org/question.php?id=4987 imo, it’s a good site, in general, for ‘dox perspective on that stuff. That said, I don’t think “because G-d commanded us to do so” is an example of “good science,” by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m not interested in debating science. Thank you for calling me out on that. I can live with myself calling anything that is simply a mitzvah bad science. “Because G-d said so” is not a scientific reason to do anything. If science is what leads you to faith, I think that’s wonderful for you. The black and white of science isn’t why I believe what I do. Logic and science have very little to do with it at all. We take different roads to a similar destination. Be well.
You were right, I was wrong, (on this topic, and I will use this resource, which I am happy to share with you, to cite that hilchot niddah are straight-up commandments and that there are spiritual explanations sometimes offered in kallah classes to help folks warm up to the concept: yoatzot dot org/question.php?id=4987 imo, it’s a good site, in general, for ‘dox perspective on that stuff. That said, I don’t think “because G-d commanded us to do so” is an example of “good science,” by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m not interested in debating science. Thank you for calling me out on that. I can live with myself calling anything that is simply a mitzvah bad science. “Because G-d said so” is not a scientific reason to do anything. If science is what leads you to faith, I think that’s wonderful for you. The black and white of science isn’t why I believe what I do. Logic and science have very little to do with it at all. We take different roads to a similar destination. Be well.
Like David?
oh.
Remins me of the following classic written by an ex yeshiva dude:
Girls – all I really want is girls
And in the morning it’s girls
Cause in the evening it’s girls
I like the way that they walk
And it’s chill to hear them talk
And I can always make them smile
From White Castle to the Nile
Back in the day
There was this girl around the way
She liked by home-piece M.C.A.
He said he would not give her play
I asked him, “Please?” – he said, “You may.”
Her pants were tight and that’s ok
If she would dance – I would D.J.
We took a walk down to the bay
I hope she’ll say, “Hey me and you should hit the hay!”
I asked her out – she said, “No way!”
I should have probably guessed her gay
So I broke North with no delay
I heard she moved real far away
That was two years ago this May
I seen her just the other day
Jockin’ Mike D. to my dismay
Girls – to do the dishes
Girls – to clean up my room
Girls – to do the laundry
Girls – and in the bathroom
Girls – that’s all I really want is girls
Two at a time – I want girls
With new wave hairdos – I want girls
I ought to whip out my – girls, girls, girls, girls, girls!
I’m sure I sound dumb, but is that a real song? :^) LOL, it reminds me of the lines from Lady Gaga:
Boys, boys, boys – we like boys in cars
Boys, boys, boys – buy us drinks in bars
Boys, boys, boys – with hairspray and denim
Boys, boys, boys – we love ’em!
:^)
Mahla,
You’ve got to be kidding.. It’s a Beastie Boys classic. They attended Yeshiva University High School before going OTD.
LOL, I had NO idea Phil! That’s hilarious! They must be way, WAY OTD. ;^D
I’m sorry, eMpTygAy is not a real Yeshiva.
Ghotti,
I never attended, but many Y.U / Washington Heights guys growing up in my days used the Beastie Boys as their claim to fame.
As a denizen of Washeengtone Heights and a YU dropout, I am quite familiar with the urban legend that the Beasties were expelled from MTA. There are those of us who used to dissect the lyrics from “Licence to Ill” and figure out references to Rabbi Finkelstein (principal of MTA at the time) or Rabbi Dulitz (one of those legendary rabbis at MTA who was a bit cantankerous; I seem to remember them making fun of someone with a glass eye in one of their songs, and some say it is he).
If you pry open the elevator doors toward the basement of the MTA building, there is “Beastie Boys ’85” gratified on the wall. Again, this is no proof. This was probably added sometime later. As of now, I haven’t heard any definitive proof that the Beasties actually attended MTA, but the legend does stand.
The only one of these urban legend I can confirm is that Regina Spektor did go to Frisch for 2 years. This I know for a fact because she was in some of my classes freshman year.
But there’s also the one of Evan and Jarron having gone to Touro. I’ve met people who knew them from those days. Of course, there’s also David Draiman, who seems to have jumped around plenty of Yeshivot in his day (according to Wikipedia…). Slightly unrelated, the drummer for Lynyrd Skynyrd spent time in The Diaspora Yeshiva. After the plane crash that killed 3 of the band members, the band took a bit of a hiatus; the drummer did a bit of soul searching, and ended up in Israel, where he spent some time in The Diaspora Yeshiva. After his stay was over, he simply left his drums there. To this day, this drum set remains. Every time I’ve seen a concert at The Diaspora Yeshiva, someone has always proudly pointed out that those drums being played used to belong to Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Whoops, I meant Beastie Boys ’79. If it did say ’85. then we’d know it was fake. By that time, they had already graduated college. But ’79 would have been when they first started out as a hardcore punk band.
Even by the very low standards of hardcore, the Beasties were a lousy band. No one who heard “Egg Raid on Mojo” at the time would guess that they would end up with world wide fame.
Chris,
They are pretty lousy, but somehow still ended up cool. Kind of Like Snoop dog, 50 cents, etc.
Last good thing they did was Paul’s Boutique
Last good thing they did was Paul’s Boutique
Ghotti,
No need to dissect the Lyrics, MTA is on the crashed plane on the cover 😉
And if you read 3MTA3 in a mirror, it says “Eat Me”. Nothing to do with The Marsha Stern Talmudical Academy Yeshiva University High School for Boys.
Ghotti,
Maybe it’s a double pun as in eat me MTA, the 3 of us are OTD.
Good one, dude , never thought of it that way.
Good one, dude , never thought of it that way.
I’d much rather have girls than boys.
Heshy, Heshy, Heshy, you are the frum-single-male equivalent of a “Traitor to your Race/Class” simply because you so proudly brag about fooling around with similarly fallen women, like your birthday-suited bedfellow Miss Concerned-about-Melacha.
It’s a cop-out to say “but who really is [frum] these days?” Of course nobody is perfect, but you unashamedly subvert the essence, the ikar, the crux of frum singlehood: the ever-increasing public humiliation and soul-crushing private loneliness frum singles face due to our lack of hanky-panky, or even the slightest hanky. Heck, even religious goyim think panky is OK fully clothed.
Perhaps you kiss-and-tell precisely because it raises you above your uncool peers? Well, someday, IYH soon, you’ll marry a wonderful woman, and you must then fight the yetzer hara to flip the other way and compensate for your libertine past by starting an embarrassing purity-related blog for teen boys, picketing no-tell Upper-West-Side mikvaos, or by joining the (shudder) “Orthoprax Inquisition.”
Gut Voch!
someone on this comment section needs to look at the Ramah’s opinion on “negiah”. Very interesting, very open-minded, and emotionally sane.
Where can the Ramah’s opinion you are referring to be found?