This was sent to me by a lawyer in NY who started a correspondence with me a few weeks ago and in his initial email to me he called me a virtuoso. I’m honored and the insights he shares below are actually quite interesting – I received permission to post this.
Hi Hesh- I was thinking about your observations about the differences between Modern Orthodox behaviors and those of the frummier types. For instance, MO will swim and play ball on shabbos, not wear a kipa at work (among other places), women wearing pants and shorts. The frummier people (yeshivish) will smoke, eat unhealthy food, be racist. And the things that I identified that one of these groups do, the other group looks down on, to say the least.
It seems to be that both groups are actually, and unbeknownst to them, operating on the same principal, but just coming at it from different perspectives. To explain or justify their behavior on these things, if challenged, each is saying in effect; “show me where it’s not permitted to do this?” The MO say, there is actually no prohibition on swimming or playing ball on shabbos; it’s only the things that people associate with these activities that are not permitted (wringing out a towel, playing ball without an eruv etc). The frummies will say the same thing—it doesn’t say anywhere that you can’t smoke and as long as it’s kosher, I can eat 10 millions gram of fat and salt a day if I want. And where does it say that I have to like [fill in the name of any ethnic group]? The MO will respond to the frummies on these things, the same way the frummies would respond to the MO on their activities; “There are broader principles at work that prevents us from doing these things.” So, for example, the frummy would say that playing ball on shabbos violates the “ruach” of shabbos where you should be learning, davening etc. The MO would say to the frummy, keeping yourself healthy is a basic principal of Judaism (“shamor et nafshecha meod”).
So for the MO and the frummy, each is only observing that which they have been taught to emphasize. For the MO, ritual observance will come in second place as long as there is no explicit prohibition that is being violated. For the frummy, lifestyle choices will come in second place, as long as no explicit prohibition is being violated. To me, that pretty much sums up the differences among the various Orthodox (and some non-Orthodox) groups. What area of observance have you been taught to emphasize. If it’s tsnius, kosher and shaboss, then you are a frummy and all these other broader social issues are pushed aside. If you have been taught to emphasize that contributing to the world, gaining intellectual insight, taking care of your family emotionally and physically are important Jewish values, then a few ritual details can be pushed aside as long as nothing egregious is being violated.
Which brings me to my last point. Given the broad range of mitzvoth that are in the Torah, from not gleaning the corners of your field so that poor people can take the left-overs to honoring your parents to all the ritual practices, how can all of these observances, and the sensitivities that go along with them, possibly be understood and observed by plain old folks? In my opinion, that’s why there are communities that emphasize one type of mitzvah over another, because those mitzvoth fit more to the character and proclivities to that community. So a Western educated community will find it easier to understand and perform mitzvoth that are more in line with Western thought (self improvement, tolerance of others) than a community that relies heavily on Eastern European customs.(modest dress, separation from gentiles). I think it would go a long way to healing the divides among these communities if they were aware that they all are choosing what parts of Judaism they are emphasizing, and that nobody can claim to be a complete adherent to the whole of torah.
That was brilliant.
Dear Mahla, I always enjoy reading your comments and I’m somewhat intrigued by you. I was wondering if you would maybe write a guest post about yourself. I’m sure that I’m not the only person who would be interested. Please think about it. Thanks. Anon.
LOL, how flattering Anon. :^) Thanks much. :^)
I agree too, btw just out of curiosity have you ever thought of converting?
Same Here, I have never thought of converting to Judaism, no. :^) But I have a lot of admiration & respect for the Jewish people. :^)
I agree with Anon.
So where does that leave you if you are frummy and care about personal and intellectual development and social issues that affect everyone?
You don’t exist. Provide me with scientific evidence that you exist, and maybe I’ll change my mind. 🙂
Yes, I think that was a brilliant post.
Thanks a lot!
That was absolutely brilliant. And Anon, how many frummies do you know care about social issues and actually speak out about them? The Orthodox organizations that focus on social justice tend to be of the more modern bent.
That’s exactly my question.
Very well said, Hesh. Your friend is right. One thing I’d like to point out though is that the frummies are much more into chessed and hachnasas orchim than the modern. Do the MOdox have gemachim? If you were in a pinch would they invite you for Shabbos? Not really. They’re more into the abstract principles of chesed and intellectualizing it than actually doing it.
While interesting, this post is certainly not “brilliant”. The author is obviously MO, since the whole post is giving an intellectual reason for tolerance, and portraying the Yeshivish (frummy in MO) world simplistically.
He argues for looser standards of Mitzva observance without giving a real reason other than it’s really hard:
“…how can all of these observances, and the sensitivities that go along with them, possibly be understood and observed by plain old folks?”
The post explains the MO perspective well, while simply describing the Yeshivish modality but missing it’s perspective. They come across as being old-fashioned and ignorant:
“So a Western educated community will find it easier to understand and perform mitzvoth that are more in line with Western thought (self improvement, tolerance of others) than a community that relies heavily on Eastern European customs.(modest dress, separation from gentiles).”
As most intellectuals in the Yeshivish world can tell you, the insistence on following European customs exactly, the taking care of your own mentality, and the dismissal of anything foreign is because of the “Eastern European” Jewish Ghetto mentality that pervades the community. They don’t engage the outside world because they see outsiders and even internal breakaways as hostile.
I personally believe it’s because the Yeshivish (and many Chassidic) communities haven’t adapted the religion to fit the times
(ie post-18th cent. haskallah). The only notable exception is the German community which developed the Torah Im Derech Eretz hashkafah.
This also explains the Yeshivish community’s fear of science.
So while I personally think this outlook is outdated and causes a tremendous strain on people in the community, I have at least attempted to understand it. And isn’t that really more in the true spirit of tolerance?
Me thinks you are missing the author’s point. I don’t think he was criticizing either MO or frummies. He was just saying that each justifies it’s own behavior by saying that if there is no explicit prohibition against something, then it’s ok to do it. There is no place in the torah or in any sefer that says you cannot play frisbee within an eruv on shabbos. But you’ll never see a frummy doing that. Likewise, a frummy doesn’t want to hear about why smoking is really asur and weighing 350 lbs is a chillul hashem because none of their rabunim have explicitly forbade these activities. Finally, I don’t think the author was justifying non-observance by any particular group- he was saying that no group or people can possibly adhere to all mitzvoth because they call on such different elements of character that no single person can possess. He doesn’t say you shouldn’t try, he’s just saying we should all acknowledge that none of us achieves this goal.
No prohabition on Shabbos? What about Uvdin D’chol???
offthedwannabe, Very well said. Your comment, was brilliant. Weve probably disagreed before but this time youve hit the nail on the head.
Thanks John. I appreciate that.
@Herb: I think the point he’s making is interesting food for thought, but he extends it to try to explain the actions of yeshivish world, without having real experience. The result is a piece that shows a personal bias in place of actual fact by painting the ‘frummy’ community as illogical, simplistic followers. That’s why I said it’s interesting, but being narrow-minded, not brilliant.
great response. the “frummies” are often portrayed as simple while many are actually intelligent accomplished individuals
This is so not true.
I’ve been involved in both kinds of communities and I’m going by what I’ve seen.
Me too.
They don’t call it a gemach, but people do tons of giving and chessed.
And in terms of inviting people for Shabbos, the MO may be more open because they’ll invite someone who needs a place for Shabbos even if they may not dress appropriately. The frummies are more likely to worry about their children being badly influenced by seeing an elbow or open toed shoes or uncovered hair and turn down this opportunity.
I dunno. Maybe I’ve just met the wrong people. I lived with a very frum woman (to the extreme actually) in a boarding house she owned in Boro Park, along with some other young women. She knew I was more modern but she was very nice and welcoming to me even if she tried to save my soul. I lived there for almost 2 years for very little rent when I went to college. She even knew I had a boyfriend and didn’t threaten me or make me feel unwelcome.
I’ve never encountered anything similar with the MOdox but as I’ve said maybe I’ve just dealt with the wrong people. Certainly they don’t have organized chesed it’s just individuals. Also why don’t the MOdox do kiruv if they’re so concerned about the “slide to the right”? If they got more recruits to their way of thinking wouldn’t that help them?
In case you were wondering I’m not modern or chareidi or any other label. I’m honestly a real outsider even though I’m basically FFB (stopped eating Burger King at age 5) and went to Bais Yaacov. I consider myself halachic and leave it at that.
Definitely not true. This sounds to me more like the difference between living in NY and “Out of Town.” Surrounded by Jews in NY, all kinds of people will fake invite you (They don’t intend to ever take you in, but it’s “nice ” to offer). Heck, more than once I asked various Rabbi in NY for help finding a place since I was visiting some not so frum relative, and got either the cold shoulder or the aggressive interview.
In the rest of the country, I can walk into a shul and find a place most of the time without much of a hassle. IMO, NY just has a bad attitude of gashmius. 😛
100%. However see my above comment about my time in the boarding house, that was in NY too.
Interesting point “the other shim”, yet totally inaccurate and biased. In my experience the only chesed that these frummies seem to take part in is chesed towards other Jews and intolerance and bigotry towards gentiles. MO’s seem to care about the larger world, and of course care for their fellow Jews. MO’s actually enable themselves to be more active participants of chesed since they regularly contribute to their communities and to the rest of the world, instead of studying in Yeshivas for years and neglecting their wives. Of course any sympathetic MO would invite a fellow Jew into their house for a shabbos dinner, but would a frum person invite a non-Jew, no matter what their race, into their house, or even a reform Jew into their house for a warm meal on a cold night? I’m aware that the talmud teaches us to first help our fellow Jew, but where does that responsibility end and when can we start helping other non-Jews in our communities?
I’ve said this already but just to make sure everyone knows I’m not black hat/chareidi even though my husband’s family is. Just a disclaimer. I don’t fit into any category and I stopped trying to long ago.
Coming out of high school, I used to think the MO’s would be more accepting than the Bais Yaacov girls I went to school with. But I found that all Jews can be judgemental, it just takes on different forms. Both groups hate each other equally. And you’d be surprised but there are alot of accepting open minded people that are more yeshivish. Not a ton but they exist. And I count them among my friends.
When I lived as a single girl in NY I never had a problem with the frummer families inviting me even if I wasn’t their kind. As for non-Jews, you’re right and it’s too bad. The frummies have a dumb attitude about non Jews that bothers the hell out of me. Still I encountered more hospitality among the frummies than the Modern. (Carlebachers were a different story though) Maybe I just didn’t meet the right people, I really don’t want to sound judgemental myself. Havei dan l’kaf z’chus and all that.
As for kollel men neglecting their wives that is a load of crap. All my sister-in-laws (and I have quite a few) are quite content with their husbands and have great marriages. And I’m sure they are the norm rather than the exception. I don’t know if a lot of the more modern know this but even the biggest frummies usually don’t learn in kollel for the rest of their lives. They work after 3-5 years. There are exceptions but they are the minority.
I’m truly sorry if I offended anybody here, I’m just commenting on my own experiences.
Swimming is a rabbinic prohibition, since one might come to make a life preserver if one is drowning.
Plus if you tried to grab the drowning man and swim with him to safety, you’d be carrying on Shabbos.
The talmud calls someone that doesn’t save another from drowning due to religious reasons a fool. So your wrong and any 16 year old frummy would know this aforementioned gemara. Oh and that’s the biggest difference between month and frummies. Frummies actually learn torah while month tries to change it while they have never learnt it.
Anonymous, I have never had the opportunity to learn gemara, so thank you for responding to state that it would be allowed. :^)
Funny, I always thought JB taught something in his smicha classes, and had standards for giving out smicha, but now I find out (from an anonymous reporter, no less) that his student Avi Weiss never learned Torah. How strange.
However, I’d point out that what you say here isn’t quite a response to what was said. The Gemara is criticizing someone who refrains from saving a person who is already drowning. It would still be consistent to also tell people not to put themselves into the situation in the first place.
due to the fact that im referring to the average person. the average frummy knows much more torah then the average modox. this is fact. you dont agree? i would recommend doing a google search on where the modox world is holding insofar as their students knowing how to lain a simple blatt of gemara. they average yeshivish kid knows how to make a laining by the time he hits 11th grade while the average modox kid cant do it until sometime mid second year.
the thing with modox is that they pick up a few things here and there and then like arguing as if they understand the first thing about anything. and then when you show them they dont know what they are talking about they jump to rav soloveichik not realizing that rav soloveitchik is probably rolling over in his grave due to the stupidities going on in the “modox” world. what i mean to say is that modox people have split from their leaders. the true leaders of modox for example were against the gay awareness rallies that didnt stop the modox public. they are against avi wiess while the average modox person is pro him. think about it, the average modox person is ignorant of torah other then the basics.
and no i didnt get any of this from my rebbeim in yeshiva. not once did my rebbeim ever ever ever talk about modox jews in a degrading term ever. they referred to rav soloveitchik with the greatest respect. i got all my information from reading modox blogs and reading the comments. i realized from the aforementioned comments that half the people dont know what they are talking about and the other half are more interested in bashing any way thats other the theirs.
Anonymous,
I don’t necessarily agree with all you’ve said since I just don’t know enough about MOdox people’s learning habits etc. However, the head of the seminary I went to in Israel, Rav Nachman Bulman zt’l lamented the whole “Oh Rav Soloveitchik said this and Rav Soloveitchik said that” thing. He told us “I KNEW Rav Soloveitchik, and he’d never condone half the things people justify in his name.”
Puzzled, I was the ‘Anonymous’ above who stated she’d never had the opportunity to learn gemara; I don’t know if you were addressing me …. I accidentally posted as Anonymous because I thought I was signed in. :^)
I knew it was you because it ended with :^)
That I find to be VERY VERY true…
Mahla, you Know that is allowed, well, if they are Jewish, If not, they can come after Shabbos and pick up the “lost” wallet that they have no requirement to return..
.. But seriously, I am guessing you already know that saving a life is actually permitted on Shabbos.
Sergeant J, I heard that it is only permitted to save a life on Shabbos if you are saving another Jew.
However, much like the wallet thing, how would you know for sure that the drowning person was a Jew or not?
Besides, for every ‘fact’ I think I’ve learned about Judaism, there are seemingly two more people arguing that they’re Jewish and know for a fact that it’s incorrect, LOL.
I have only heard it from racists in the Frum community.
If you can swim well, you jump in and save the person’s life, period. (Then, if you’re a real abcdefg, you can ask them if they’re Jewish. [If you’re a shliach, you’re not an abcdefg for asking, you’re just doing your job.])
Then why do women go to Mikva on shabbos (both MO and frummies)?
Are you familiar with mikva? Theres no swimming involved.
I go to the mikvah every month, and while, yes, there’s no swimming involved, whenever a person completely submerges in water as tvilah requires, you do run the risk of drowning, however unlikely.
I go to the mikva everyday, whens the last time youve heard of someone fashioning a floatation device out of fear of drowning in the mikva (the reason for the gezeira dirabanan).
I agree that this is an excelent post, reminds me of a Rav I heard once responding to a question about vegaterianism.
He said that it is possible that in an ideal world we would be vegetarian, however it is not obligatory, so if you channel your religious energy into vegaterianism (or femainism, or recycling, or excessive Tzniut, or anything else) it should not be at the expense of other areas in which we are obligated.
That’s funny, I do all of these.
Why would we all be vegetarians in an ideal world? why then did Hash-m create shechita?!
Why will we be vegetarians when the beis hamikdash is rebuilt?
we will? here i thought the gemara talks about eating the lavayatan. (as well as different meats from karbanos) whats your source hesh?
Are you pulling things out of your ass now?
It is an ideal not to be an eved to another person. That’s why we pierce an eved’s ear after seven years if he still wants to be an eved. But we still allow for it, and we still have halachot surrounding it. There are many times when something is ideal, but not required, so instead of Hashem outlawing it, Hashem decided to regulate it with mitzvot.
Exactly. A close reading of B’reishis makes it clear that Adam and Eve were vegetarians. That’s explicit. This is before the expulsion from the first Gan Eden. And then in Isaiah, it’s spelled out pretty clearly that all of creation will be vegetarian in the time of Mashiach. The laws for eating meat were not given until AFTER Noah–a way of regulating or managing the less than optimal behavior of mankind, as An_Ony_Mouse indicated.
Thats not really true – the gemara in sanhedrin explains that the prohibition in gan eden was only against killing animals – adam and eve could eat animals that had already died and did already have the law of ever min hachai – eating meat from a still living animal (according to most opinions)
divorce is a great example. giving a woman a get is a mitzvas asei. ie If a person leaves his wife he is commanded to give her a get, it doesnt mean to just go around giving a get. It can be argued that ideally nobody should eat meat, if you must do it through shechita.
Although one would be able to basically keep meat and fish out of his diet durring MOST of the year, there are certain instances when you will ultimately HAVE to eat meat.
For instance, Korbon pesach… (no nibbling either- a full kizayis, they better hope we don’t paskin like the Chazon Ish when Moshiach comes). There’s just no way around that one.
I asked a shayla about being vegetarian from a hareidi rabbi. He told me that there is no chiyuv to eat meat except for korban pesach beviyat hamashiach.
A rough translation: I asked a hareidi rabbi if there is an obligation to eat meat. He told me the only time there is is the passover sacrifice at the time of the messiah. B”H.
Oh thank G-d! we wouldnt want to harm the animals who were put here for us to eat!
Hello Perfection, seems like I’ve run into “you” so many times. Why does it bother you if someone else doesn’t want to eat meat? I’m not preaching to anyone, just said that I don’t eat meat, and this was the answer to a shayla I asked for myself.
And what you wrote, even though it is sarcastic, is correct. You are allowed to eat meat but you are not allowed to cause suffering to animals. There is even an opinion that one should not keep pets because of this, in case one causes them suffering, thus doing an isur d’oreita. One day a rav will come out and say that factory farmed animals are not kosher. I believe that Rav Moshe Feinstein zatsal already said this about veal, because of the cruelty of the conditions in which they are raised.
While proper conduct has a parallel basis between Modern Orthodox and frummy, I am less convinced that misconduct or illegality does. Gluttony may be compatible with Kashrut, perhaps a matter of bein adam l’makom, scamming businesses or trafficking in transplantable organs probably or disparaging speech toward those of lesser practice would be more in the category of bein adam l’chaveiro. I think the MO may be of the mind that HaShem can deal with misconduct headed in that direction than people can handle misconduct directed at them, whereas seems to regard the need to treat people properly as a secondary byproduct of bein adam l’makom more than an end in itself.
Terrific .
Maybe this post will bring some of the ” long way to healing the divides among these communities”.
After reading the first paragraph I can see there is a problem with this person’s understanding of what MO is and halacha. First off, swimming on Shabbos is 100% forbidden, it is not just wringing out the towel. There is an Issur dirabanan. Shower with cold water, or hot water in an apartment building that is mostly non-Jews might be a different story, but swimming is asur.
Exactly. This whole post is pretty much illogical. There are just as many obese and smoker MOs per capita as there are frummies. Similarly, racism exists in both camps, just the norms of expression are different. How can the author equate being fat with women wearing shorts?
E-man, if a shower with cold water is okay, how about a bathtub filled with cold water? Is it permissible to take a bath?
Showers/Baths/Swimming all not allowed, u can twist and turn halacha all you want to make it fit your lifestyle or you can fit your lifestyle around halacha that in essence what being a Jew is all about.
Why is mikvah allowed then?
I wondered that too, but I guess you can’t miss mitzva night!
Good question. Ask your LORR.
What’s wrong with those? I’ve never heard anything about swimming being banned and I thought showers/baths were fine as long as you turned off the water heater before Shabbat.
Because Heshy, it’s exactly that. A mikva, and not a ‘bath’. You don’t ‘wash’ or ‘swim’ or ‘chill’ there. You just tovel.
In fact, even on yom kippur or tisha b’av (when all cleansing is forbidden by the Torah), if one becomes a ba’al keri he can tovel. (please verify this with your rabbi before actually doing it, as there are varying opinions).
And some of the Mikvahs I have seen, you certainly are not getting physically clean in….
I think the ladies’ mikvaot are probably cleaner than the men’s.
They are. One erev Yom Kippur the usual one was too crowded, so I found out there was a womens mik open for men that day, and hopped over.
I was a shtickle shocked to say the least. Well, I didn’t really expect the situation to be like the mens, (y’know with guys shmoozing and saying over the last good Yankel Miller joke while soaping – sorry for the imagery) but it was a little extreme. I mean it looked like a spa. And yes it was a LOT cleaner then the mens. It was so private it was almost creepy.
Perfection, thank you for responding. :^)
Not showering in the cold–I thought this is a custom.
I was taught that it is forbidden to shower the entire body, even in cold water, on shabbos (with provisions to ask your LOR about discomfort and things) and that one may shower in cold water on yuntif only by cleaning one part of the body, then the next, not the whole body at once.
Ewww, you mean He watches me in the shower?
It is forbidden to take a full shower on shabbat.
Why are my comments being held up?
I think what the author was trying to say is that for frummy types, who will go to such extreme lengths when it comes to kosher (bugs, special shechitas) and tsnnius, they only need to know that there is no explicit prohibition on something and they’ll go ahead and do it. For example, when you think of all the has been written by the rabbis about pikuach nefesh and when people can and cannot withold treatment for disease, and even the whole notion that wasting sperm is liking taking a life, that a frummy can smoke and eat unhealthy foods, it’s completely illogical. For MO, it’s the same thing. For them, tsnius is in the eye of the beholder- if you see women everyday wearing tank tops and short shorts and low slung jeans, a woman wearing a nice knee length pair of hiking shorts, for example, is not the least bit provocative.
And by the way, sure there may be racist MO, but fear and loathing of gentiles is not really part of the MO culture like it is in the frummy world.
Finally, there is no actual prohibition on walking into the ocean or a pool (up to your waist) on shabbos. It’s true! If you think there is, that just confirms what the author was saying and your a certified frummy!
To Perfection: To you it’s twisting and turning halacha to allow one to swim on shabbos. But that is no different than twisting and turning halacha to say smoking and obesity are not against halacha. It’s all about what parts halacha you are emphasizing.
I am sure there are many opinions on the matter – not one person here has quoted some shulchan aruch, gemara, Tur or mishna brura to prove a point.
Babe, do you think people that can actually quote gemaras are on your site?
This author falls into the common trap (he may be a “frummie” himself, if that’s his perspective), of identifying MO with O-Lite. In effect, he’s calling them Reform, if they’re light on the “ritual observances” – that’s the classical Reform distinction, that they keep the “ethical” mitzvot but not the “ritual” ones. The lawyer friend should examine his own assumptions, which he himself was taught, if he identifies MO with Reform ideology.
To the commentator who said MO doesn’t do chesed like the frummies, well, yes. My mother is “the chesed lady” at her large MO shul, and organizes lots of (mostly young) volunteers for her clothing and food drives. But the older folks aren’t as interested in it. However, looking at the contemporary LWMO, a lot of them are very interested in “social action” – chesed towards the larger society driven by Jewish ideals.
to thanbo: I didn’t read the author that way at all. Reform is no ritual. The author is saying that for MO a ritual can be given less priority as long as it does not violate a specific prohibition. Reform don’t view any of this as binding, the MO does.
I see MO’s kids who smoke.
The ironic thing about frummies smoking is that recently it’s been revealed that cigarettes contain pig’s blood. So it’s treif no matter how you look at it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1262322/Warning-religious-groups-traces-pigs-blood-cigarette-filters.html
Oh my gosh Bubba, that is HORRIBLE!
who eats cigerrettes? i dont smoke never smoked in my life, and hate smokers- but come on, your not eating anything…
It still goes in their mouth though.
I have a hetter because smoking is pikuach nefesh for me. Because I’d F’N KILL SOMEONE if I couldn’t have a cigarette!
Fifty, sixty years ago there were Orthodox and other sorts of Jews. With the Romantic/Reactionary revival what used to be Orthodox are now disparagingly called “Modern Orthodox”.
I don’t see any “healing” between the two groups. The “frummies” don’t want it. They have embarked on a path where separation and distinction are the core of their social values. Rapprochement and compromise are alien to the ideology. It has led to some very odd contortions already. In time it will lead them to splinter into smaller mutually hostile sects. That’s how that story always plays out.
And before anyone starts flapping their kugel hole in righteous indignation this isn’t about Jews or Torah. It’s a very common human pattern. Jews are no more immune to it than anyone else.
Truer words were never spoken! And the kugel hole flapping made me smile.
You don’t really see that as much with the Litvish frummies, but it’s common with Hasidim. All these different Hasidic groups having issues with each other, and even some of those groups fragment further and have conflicts within the same group like the 2 different Satmar factions.
What ever happened to Jews loving other Jews? We have so many external problems to worry about, we don’t need to create any more internal problems.
A. Nuran- Would you please elaborate on what it meant fifty or sixty years ago to be “Orthodox” and explain a bit about what has driven the subsequent changes and brought about the “Romantic/ Reactionary revival”? Thanks.
Go on and blame “frummies” all you want. Both sides look down on each other with great disdain and it’s disgusting. This is nothing new. If you think it is you don’t really know a lot of Jewish history. The conflict between Chassidim and Misnagdim 250 years ago make the disagreements the frummers have with the modern look downright friendly. Even the Rambam had his writings burned at one point. It goes all the way back to Korach. This is why we are called “a stiff necked people”.
This guy’s philosophy is not MO. He is basically Conservative, maybe even Reform.
His point by the way, is rediculous and simply untrue.
It’s like saying “MO is really just like Jihad. They both believe that a certain way of acting is correct and then they go and act upon their beliefs.”
Of course if you simplify any two things enough, you will be able to draw similarities between them. But that doesn’t mean you can now call them ‘the same’ in a completely different context.
The two groups are so radically different, that you can’t even compare their values for belief in G-d itself, let alone what we’re supposed to do about it.
This guy is so unbelievably biased, he makes ME look liberal.
The point is not that the philosophy or even practice of frummies and MO are the same pr similar. The point is that they both use the same logic in justifying things that are not permissible by halacha. Each group will say:”Show me where it says I cannot do this [smoke][swim on shabbos]. They do this because they are each approaching halacha from a different perspective and both should acknowledge that they do not have a monopoly on righteosusness.
How is that Reform?
Why Do you keep bringing up swimming on shabbos. It’s clearly a rabbinic prohibition. There is nothing to talk about.
I thought the author was right on the money. Lovely analysis. And I don’t remember who said it, but MO are every bit as hospitable as the “frummies.” I cannot tell you how many times people in MO communities have put us up, and we have done the same. For strangers, more often than not. Hachnasat orchim is big in all the MO communities I’ve encountered.
I don’t particularly care for the MO-“frummie” distinction, because MO are frum too. Frum, as I understand it, means you follow the halakhah. You keep kosher inside and out, you’re shomer shabbos, you keep the laws of taharat hamishpachah, etc. MO do those things. So do other Jews who might be stricter. Frum may be considered a continuum–as in, one person may be more frum and another less so, but that does not mean that the one who is less so isn’t frum. Every MO Jew I know would take offense to being told he isn’t “frum.” Reform Jews, OTOH, would agree that they are not. I think the better description would be MO vs. UO. Modern-O, vs. Ultra-O.
i am an orthodox convert who made aliyah four years ago. i am living in a wonderful dati leumi yishuv. regarding modern orthodox vs. frummies, while my husband, kids and 99% of my friends belong to the mo camp, i find myself seeking a frummier lifestyle. obviusly, i can’t leave my family…any suggestions?
Depends on what you want to change from what you are doing now… At some point, you may have to choose between upsetting your community, or even family, or doing one or more of these things..
Just do it!
Nechama, if you change one thing at a time and do it slowly, I think your family will be more likely to accept the direction you are headed in and make that journey with you. Perhaps you could frame it to your spouse as doing what’s best for your children? It’s good for children to have a secure cultural and religious background, I think.
If you try to “frum out” on five or six fronts all at once, you may turn them off from the idea, but if you try to introduce a little bit at a time, it won’t seem like such a shock to them.
Also, if your family sees you progressing in your yiddishkeit and can actually observe that you’re feeling more content & drawing closer to Hashem, I think that will impress them more than all the lectures in the world about how things you’re doing as a family ought to change, just because.
Like Sergeant J already said, it also depends on what exactly you’re thinking you want to change. I’m no expert on Judaism, but if you’ve made aliyah and are learning in a yeshiva, it seems to me like you’re already pretty observant of your faith, at least by worldly standards.
Good luck to you. :^)
Maybe we should have Mahla appointed as the Mashgiach Ruchani (spiritual advisor) of one of our yeshivas. I’m starting to think she’s actually a kiruv Rabbi, who just looks really feminine, and maybe wore a hijab for Purim.
Now she just needs to learn to say “be well”.
I know how to use the phrase Baruch Hashem! :^)
I actually learned this recently… you can swim in a pool on Shabbos but only if you skinny dip… to go in a bathing suit would be libun (cleaning) the bathing suit… any type of putting liquid on a material is “cleaning” even if it was clean before. I go to a friend’s house who has a pool which cannot be seen from neighbors and it works out great.
:^O
Interesting. This would explain the mikvah question.
You learnt absolutely wrong. Go to that rabbi and demand your money back. there is an issur derabanan to swim lest one fashions a floating device.
Let’s just get something straight for the record.
Smoking: There is a controversy among the halachic authorities if it is forbidden or not. The vast majority (excluding biased MO rabbis) rule it to be permissable – albeit stupid and unadvisable. The halacha of “Ushmartem” is one of the most distorted halachos around. It means that we are forbidden to “Place our lives in danger”. It does NOT mean we are obligated to exercise daily, eat only organic foods, do yoga, or ‘keep healthy’ in general.
Obviously, if someone has high cholesterol or diabetes etc, he is obligated to keep to the diet given to him by his doctor. Because not doing so is DANGEROUS.
Walking into oncoming traffic is DANGEROUS. Starting up with a hungry lion is DANGEROUS. Dancing on a roof with no gate is DANGEROUS.
Smoking – although disgusting and smelly – is not necessarily DANGEROUS.
To use the statistics gleaned from non-jews is inaccurate for a few reasons. 1) You would have to do a study on people who stopped smoking for 26 hours once every 7 days. 2)There are opinions which state that the statistics taken from non-jews are wholly inapplicable to Jews (I’m unsure if these two apply to non-religious Jews as well). 3)The statistics are primarily made up of VERY heavy smokers.
The statistics do not say that “most people who smoke die early” or even “half”. They say “You increase the risk by whatever %”. ‘Dangerous’ in halacha requires ‘likelihood’.
This is not to say smoking is not ‘unhealthy’, thats stupid. It does however take smoking out of the categorie of DANGEROUS, and place it in “what’s the point, you really shouldn’t”.
Being racist: You actually need to seek out why this is not in violation with halacha? This goes under the categorie of table manners. Please don’t tie this in with Judaism.
Short skirts and pants: This in unanimously agreed upon to be in violation with halacha, I didn’t even know there were MO people who tried saying otherwise. I thought they either denied the obligation of tzniyus altogether, or just said “it’s not that bad, the main thing is I’m a good Jew at heart”.
Yankel, but what about the cigarettes having porcine byproducts though? Did you look at the article Bubba linked to? At the very least, these cigarette companies should be forced to disclose what they’re putting in their products.
you dont eat cigs….. its nasty enough just to smoke them but eat them? my oyvey I gevalt!!!
LOL, unless you’re into that awful chew tobacco! That is supposedly just as cancerous too.
Of course they should be forced to disclose everything, people are ingesting thieir product for heaven’s sake!
I’m just saying, the halchic definition of “dangerous” is much more specific than most people assume, and those UO’s who smoke cannot rightfully be accused of violating halacha, since the majority rules that it is permissable – on paper at least. (I agree that any real G-d fearing Jew should refrain from smoking regardless of the halacha’s leniency.)
Yankel- with every post that you make you are proving this author’s point (and you don’t even realize it)! You just said that the actual technical definition of “dangerous” is such that you can slide smoking through and it’s not assur. Are you looking so carefully at the definition of tsnius to see if you can slide through wearing clothing that is suitable for 100 degree weather so that a woman can, for example, wear short sleeves and not pass out from heat exhaustion? No, you are not. That is exactly the point. The ultra-orthodox will find these nifty little loop-holes for things they want to do and that they don’t view within the traditional realm of Jewish law, but when it comes to the “big three”- tsnious, kosher and shabbos, they would never look for these kind of loop-holes. The modern orthodoz, and others, will extend halacha to areas that the right wing never thought halacha applied to (protecting the environment, one’s health) and are criticized for not being “frum.” There is a tremendous inbalance in the way the ultra-Orthodox apply halacha that I believe turns off many from being more observant. They are so ultra careful about certain things, but other things that are equally important, they find ways of getting around them.
Herb, are you a lawyer by any chance? Your persistent defense of the ideas of the article are quite consistent with what the author of the letter would likely write, especially if the author was a fan of this blog.
The definition of the word mitzva is commandment. Period. Which means that every jew that takes the torah seriously, is completely and entirely COMMANDED by God to do everything within.
Anyone who decides to deliberately disregard any one mitzva (and by that I don’t mean rationalizing sin, rather, saying that this mitzva that God commanded me to do, doesn’t apply to me, or is too hard for me, therefore I am removing it from my version of Judaism), be that person a “Frummy”, be that person MO, that person is a kofer and probably posul l’eidut.
The idea to emphasize one aspect of the Torah over another deliberately, (I.E. rituals over philosophy or vice-versa) is quite similar. The torah is quite full of both. To suggest one over the other as ideal, is quite perverse, as God clearly values both immensely.
The stereotyping in the article is disgusting. “Frummies” are racist? Is that not racist? A higher prevalence of a phenomenon within a certain group, does not make the entire group that way. Nor does it prove causation. A higher percentage of the African-American population are in prison than Caucasians. Does that mean black people are criminals? Does that mean that the color of their skin is a cause of criminality? Surely, anyone who would say such a thing is a racist. And that is based on hard evidence. So to come along and make a statement that “frummies” smoke, are obese, and racist, without any statistical evidence, and to blame it on their ideology, as opposed to any other factors, is pure racism and hatred.
As to the letter of the law verse the spirit of the law; the letter of the law is absolute. The spirit is subject to interpretation. As the spirit can only be defined by the author of the law, and all we have from the author of the law, is the letter of the law, and tradition, it would be foolish to try to define the spirit of the law based on subjective feelings.
Lastly, a huge distinction must be made, between justifying a pleasurable act (in which obviously the inherent motivation is pleasure) by stating that it doesn’t go against the letter of the law, and idealizing a personal value, which is not in the torah, (in which the motivation is supposedly moral) and including it within a mitzva, because the letter of the law doesn’t directly contradict it. Vehamayvin Yovin. Please God let there soon be peace among all jews, after which the peace between jews and the world is a given.
The author was not saying that all people of a certain type do these things (frummies- racist, MO-swim on shabbos). What I think he was saying is that each group will view the things that are described as being permissible on the basis of the same principal- Where does it say I cannot do this? That was the whole point. Where does it say you cannot play ball on shabbos in an eruv, or indoors? Nowhere, but you’ll see the ultra=Orthodox come up with a combination of things that will make this assur. Same thing on the other side with smoking or racism or pedophilia. Nobody is saying that anybody is doing these things- just how each group views them in the context of halacha is similar. I personally think that is an interesting point.
Pedophilia?!! We’re trying to have a rational conversation here.
When you say that these things are said nowhere, are you referring to shas, shulchan aruch, or the nosei keilim (commentators on the shulchan aruch)?
What is your source of your “halachik” knowledge? Are your arguments based on superior halachik knowledge, or perhaps on personal feelings?
There is a gemara stating that one may not run on shabbos, unless it is to a mitzva. Would that not include, say, a game of basketball?
Racism has a lot of different aspects. That one race has a lower status than another, based on their ACTIONS, and the actions of their forefathers, is not only within halacha, but is clearly stated many times in the chumash.
Lastly, some people have “morals” based on feelings, which they then try to squash into halacha, whereas all religious Jews believe, that it is our duty to figure out what God tells us is moral behavior. Anything else is immoral. There is no such thing as an amoral action. (There are immoral actions that may be necessary evil, but don’t mistake that for amorality.)
Actually, pants is not a violation of halacha as long as they are women’s pants and tzniut in nature (aka not too tight or revealing). Clearly you’ve never actually studied the halacha regarding wearing pants for women.
Yes that is true, but I have never in my life seen pants baggy enough to even slightly meet the requirement.
I have.
Who are these MOs you’re talking about? All the MOs I know, are very interested in doing kiruv–just because they don’t do it in overt ways like working for Aish, doesn’t mean it’s not there. And ALL the MOs I know will invite someone for shabbos at the drop of a hat. Who said MOs are all working at as individuals? Do you even know any MOs? I’m not referring to the singles living on the UWS or UES, but your average run of the mill MO in an MO community all across the States and even in Israel.
While this article is cute and does touch on MOs being slightly more driven towards higher education, there are plenty of MOs who still wear kippahs to work and if not to work than right after work. If you asked them why they don’t wear their kippot to work, I would guess that that one of the first reasons out of their mouths will be a concern about chillul Hashem. That said, there are plenty of Yeshivish people who attain higher education and who are not racist.
I think a better term for modern orthodox is actually moderate orthodox–religion done in moderation. This moderation is, in fact, individual. Each MO observes in the way that is most comfortable for him/her. However, as a community, MOs are at LEAST just as involved with helping each other, the community, and the Jewish nation at large as Frummies. I would venture to guess, too, that MOs far better serve the Jewish nation as being Ner Olam than Frummies whom outsiders may consider to be odd and unapproachable on a first-look basis.
I’m MO. I grew up in a wonderful MO community. I made Aliyah and continue to be MO. As far as religion goes, I do my best.
Oh, and regarding pig’s blood in cigarettes… there’s no prohibition about inhaling treif so far as I know, just in ingesting it. Am I serious or is it injesting?
“Inhaling treif”… Thats an interesting one.
I know some yeshivish guys who only smoke winston (no bull) on Pesach because a lot of the other companies treat the tobbaco with alchohol.
But that’s also an issue with owning chametz.
Didn’t the Badatz give a hechsher to L & M cigarettes?
Can somebody please tell me where it says in the torah (not by rabbonim)anything about tsnius, or what constitutes “appropriate dress” for woman? I’ve never seen it but if you looked at some of the ultra communities, you would think that was what the whole torah was about.
There is a general prohibition for a woman to reveal any part of her body which would constitute ‘ervah’.
This term is not defined in the laws of modesty, it is found in hilchos krias shema/tefillah, where it discusses when one may/may not daven, and there it goes into specifics (tefach b’isha erva etc).
“Ervas avicha lo tigaleh etc” That is the source. There is certainly a lot of room for interpretation there. Why is a long skirt ok, but loose fitting pants not ok? Pants can reveal less. There’s a huge element of subjective societal norms at play here.
When you say “not Rabbonim” do you mean Rabbonim of today or do you mean Chazal?
Chazal say “Shok b’Isha erva” – “The thigh of a woman is considered erva”.
If you want a source from the actual chumash, and don’t accept and “rabbinic” source (meaning chazal) then this discussion is pointless, because we’re simply not on the same page altogether.
Orthodox Judaism is 100% synonymous with rabbinic interpretation and explanation of the Torah, so if you are orthodox then this is what you believe.
When I said not from rabbonim I meant don’t tell me about some rabbi somewhere who said that this is assur. I meant show me a source that delineates in detail that a woman wearing clothes that reveal her elbows, neck or knees is assur? With such a fuss being made about tsnius, you would think this was the most detailed and explicit halacha, but it isn’t. My contention is that it has been blown totally out of proportion in recent years to the point that mitvos that are detailed and explicit don’t get nearly as much emphasis as they should (like loshon harah, not stealing). Finally, when the torah says “Shamor es nafshecha meod”, why isn’t that a clear statement that we are commanded to be scrupulous about our health (just like some people are about tsnius)? Can you imagine what a tremendous thing that would be if Jews were considered to be super careful about their health, instead of being super careful about not showing their knees in public? I’m being a little satirical here to make a point. Sometimes I think about what Moshe or King David would say about today’s frum communities if they came back to life. For some reason, I don’t think they would have a clue that wearing a black fedora and payos and woman wearing sheitels is anything that Judaism is about. I think we need to rid Judaism of some of these Eastern European style customs that have crept into certain frum lifestyles and get back to the things that make Jews a holy nation and a light to other nations. This isn’t a Reform or MO philosophy-it’s just Jewish.
There is a Gemara in Baba Basra (I believe. If you ask me to i’ll find it for you) that says that one who goes the way of the river when the women are doing laundry (and their ankles are exposed),when he has another way to go, is Mischayov B’nafsho(or a similar expression, again i’ll find it if you wish). It seems to be quite strongly implying that A) women did not dress like that elsewhere, and B) that would be an immodest way of dressing.
That is exactly my point. You used the phrase “quite strongly implying.” That is how the whole tsnius and other chumras come about- from implications and talmudic sources that people stretch to “imply” that something is assur. There is no explicit prohibition on so many of the things that the ultra community make such a fuss about, but there are explicit prohibitions or other mitzvos that get so little attention.
I am not a Rabbi. I do know reputable Rabbis who know more than myself, who say that much of it is clear. I showed you something that tells me that this is not a new thing, rather, something that goes back 1600 plus years. When choosing who to believe between you and my Rabbi when you clearly contradict each other, I choose my Rabbi, because I know he at least comes from a place of some knowledge. Forgive me.
I am not trying to tell you what to do or what halachos to follow. I am also not saying that modesty in all aspects of one’s being (modesty is not just exhibited in how one dresses, but also in how one behaves) is not an important part of Jewish life and law, because it is. I am just pointing out that given the amount of attention most yeshivas and ultra communities pay to the issue of how long a girl’s skirt is, how high her collar or long her sleeve, you would think that (A) there was something explicit somewhere about all these rules (which there is not, just a lot of general concepts that have been applied by various rabbonim) and (B) that at least 50% of the Torah and 90% of shas was taken up with these issues. In my very humble opinion, I think that there’s a significant imbalance in many ultra communities on these issues. So much attention to the minutiae of how one dresses but a much more cavalier attitude about the extent to which halacha requires one to be healthy, charitable and other such midos. Please don’t be afraid to think for yourself so that you can have some perspective on how Jewish life has evolved the past 50-75 years to the point that in many respects it would be unrecognizable to those that lived in the time of the beis hamikdash and before. Do you think Melech David or Moshe Rabbenieu made their sons wear black hats when they turned bar mitzvah or had their wives wear sheitels?
I am not trying to tell you what to do or what halachos to follow. I am also not saying that modesty in all aspects of one’s being (modesty is not just exhibited in how one dresses, but also in how one behaves) is not an important part of Jewish life and law, because it is. I am just pointing out that given the amount of attention most yeshivas and ultra communities pay to the issue of how long a girl’s skirt is, how high her collar or long her sleeve, you would think that (A) there was something explicit somewhere about all these rules (which there is not, just a lot of general concepts that have been applied by various rabbonim) and (B) that at least 50% of the Torah and 90% of shas was taken up with these issues. In my very humble opinion, I think that there’s a significant imbalance in many ultra communities on these issues. So much attention to the minutiae of how one dresses but a much more cavalier attitude about the extent to which halacha requires one to be healthy, charitable and other such midos. Please don’t be afraid to think for yourself so that you can have some perspective on how Jewish life has evolved the past 50-75 years to the point that in many respects it would be unrecognizable to those that lived in the time of the beis hamikdash and before. Do you think Melech David or Moshe Rabbenieu made their sons wear black hats when they turned bar mitzvah or had their wives wear sheitels?
I wasn’t going to comment on this thread anymore, but something happened today that really made me want to come back here. I spent a good chunk of time getting to know a young woman (single, 25, attractive, unbelievably sweet special ed teacher, if anyone is looking). Her father is Jewish, and she was raised Reform. Her mother is not Jewish. She has recently decided that she wants to become observant, and to that end has started learning with my MO rabbi for a conversion (even though she already thinks of herself as Jewish, she is aware that most Jews would not). She was telling me that she originally went to a black hat rabbi, who despite her upbringing and genetics (or because of them?) completely turned her off. And no, it wasn’t just the traditional “turn them away 3 times” thing. What turned her off was the way he and his community badmouthed my rabbi and his MO shul. So much for all the UO’s being so nice to their fellow yidden.
My biggest issue w/keeping shabbos is not being able to shower. Whose rav says you can shower on shabbos, yom tov, etc.? To me, feeling dirty isn’t in the spirit of shabbos v’yomtov. I don’t want to argue with anyone, and I rent an apartment, so I can’t go messing with everyone’s hot water (I have no idea where the water heater is, anyway).
great discussion – not the greatest venue as most of the”Frummies” ( and I think that term is most often used in a deragetory manner – I know because i’ve used it) are not on constructive blogs. However, those of the “Yeshivish” but intellectually honest and open types – very well may be. Whats missing in this discussion, though is “Spirituality”. Those who really yearn for closeness to Hashem and are “Mevakaish HaEmes” Seekers of truth will be averse to falsehoods and prone to “Darchei Noam” ( paths of pleasantness)… period.
This emphasis on different mitzvot is a good way to think about different paths — and why they may all be valid.
But we should keep in mind that there’s a lot of variety. Many charedim eat very healthily and do not smoke for example. Take a look at (Breslover) Lazer Brody’s health advice — if you follow it, you’d be a lot healthier than most Modern Orthodox. He basically says eat mainly fruits and vegetables, no white flour or sugary or fatty foods, very little meat, spend lots of time in nature walking, exercising, etc.
“taking care of your family emotionally and physically”.
Have you actually spent any time around Charedi families? Because that’s either a slip of the keyboard, or a serious motzi shem ra (I’d say lashon hara, but it’s not true, not true at all).
Why don’t we have another allegedly *fair and objective* post where we learn that frummies and MO are really the same except that while one is committed to avodas Hashem, the other is committed to making lots of money and having tefillin dates. Surely a contribution to achdut yisroel the world over.
P.S.
“perform mitzvoth that are more in line with Western thought (self improvement, tolerance of others)”
I guess maybe frummies are more concerned to keep mitvos that are actually mitzvos in the sense of being commanded by Hashem, rather than mitvos in the sense of “I approve of this”.
Totally bleak post.
I know this is an older post, but I was just re-reading it and thinking about how this post and the comments it generated were so incredibly interesting and thought-provoking. Cogently presenting arguments on both sides ….
I know Heshy had received this in the form of an email and then made it a guest post, but I would love to see him contact the author to make additional guest posts here on the blog! :^)