I am so maddened by the shift to the right in orthodoxy. When I was a kid there was none of this crazy separation of the sexes and you didn’t see us having trouble with marriages. Did I ever tell you that I met your father at a dance put on by our local Young Israel? Imagine that — a dance in a shul. You would have the rabbis placing cherem on all those involved if it happened nowadays and you know what, we were fine without all this craziness. We didn’t turn out too bad. So I touched your father before we were married. We dated on and off for years, but we were still religious. So what if we went to dances and necked in his Chevy — is it such a big deal>
Another thing I really don’t like is this kosher business. When we were kids all you had to do was look on the back label at the ingredients. If you didn’t recognize anything, then you could eat it and I just want you to know that the Rav of the kehilla told us we should do this. There was no politics with different kosher authorities, we could tell if something was kosher without getting messy. Now, you have these Rabbis fighting over what’s kosher and what’s treife and it has nothing to do with kosher — it’s all politics.
I don’t understand what the big deal is about public school; we all went to public school. Some of the great Rabbis of our town went to public school and we all turned out fine. Now, if you don’t go to yeshiva for 15 years of your life you aren’t religious. Do you know how much that costs? Where do they expect to get that kind of money? Yeshiva education is crappy anyway. I just don’t understand it.
Response to this post:
This kind of talk gets to me, because I really don’t agree with it — you cannot go back to the past. People in general were less religious. Remember that this was the treife medina, this was post Holocaust and this was a time when frum people worked on Shabbos. Being frum wasn’t easy. We take so many things for granted nowadays, like walking around with a yarmulke and not getting beat up by Italian or Irish kids like my father had to worry about growing up in Boro Park. My grandfather never worked on Shabbos and that was a big deal, but many people were forced to — they had mouths to feed.
If you really want to be less religious, be less religious, but to complain about how frum everyone’s gotten is a wrong move. I think it’s amazing how 50 years ago there wasn’t much yiddishkeit in America and look at us today – it’s pretty insane. I mean Lakewood is awe inspiring, go check out Square Town – super cool to see a full blown Chassidishe Shtetl in the middle of New York State. I think that after the war many people gave up. I could never relate to the feelings – but those who held on to faith and rebuilt what they had lost in Europe is pretty amazing – yet people complain about us moving to the right.
Despite what I write here much of the time, and despite the fact that I don’t agree with lots of what the frum community does, it’s my community and I really dislike when people take things to for granted. I also have a deep respect for the Gedolim like Rav Ahron, Rav Yaakov, Rav Ruderman, etc… who transplanted European style yeshivas to America. People who complain about kasharus not being what it used to be should take note. Did you know that getting a reliable shochet 50 years ago was pretty tough? Do you realize that one of the reasons we can’t just check the product label is because food chemistry has made crazy advances in the last 50 years. Enzymes, preservatives, all sorts of additives come from some crazy places – yet people still take the “kosher industry is a sham” route and complain about things. I think you should all sit down with an experienced mashgiach and talk shop – it’s truly unbelievable what goes into some products that sound perfectly kosher. If you don’t feel like keeping kosher, that’s fine, but to tell everyone that it’s BS and a scam, is a bit much. I can’t even pronounce half the ingredients on labels anyway.
The day school movement is huge. Orthodox Jews went to public school because they had to. When my father went to Ner Yisroel in the late 50’s, they went to public school in the daytime and learned afterward – I couldn’t even imagine it nowadays. Many of the yeshivish practices developed to fend off the encroaching secularism and you know what? It kind of worked. I may make fun of the yeshivish community a whole lot – but I have deep hakoras hatov and out of all Jews I like them the best and relate to them the most (weird, unless you actually know me)
I am pretty sure that if you asked folks from back in the day if they would have rather have reliable kasharus, yeshiva education and the ability to raise their kids in a frum household – they would have picked this over working on shabbos, young Israel dances and reading the labels to find out if things were kosher. I know that modern orthodox fantasy literature sounds great – but times were different. As for the mixed dancing, people always mention this but it was a big contention within the Young Israel movement – if you want to learn more about I highly recommend the Irving Bunim biography which may be the best Jewish book I have ever read.
This post was originally going to just be the top three paragraphs, but I just started ranting here and it felt good to get it off my chest.
AMEN! I agree
Your response is amazing and tackles what’s brought up very well.
I actually heard (from my parents) that people read the labels assumed things were kosher and actually ended up eating many non-kosher ingredients. (As you mention, the food industry is much different today.) The same attitude allows people to go to a restaurant and order food that they FEEL is kosher. This is of course crazy as keilim (utensils) are important in kashrus as well.
On a side note, my Rabbi actually recommended reading Irving Bunim’s biography recently…
Also, I just noticed. I love the URL you gave this post!
Believe it or not, I remember when the wenches in Young Israel showed their elbows. Some women wore (gasp) sleeveless dresses to social events and husbands and wives were encouraged to dance together. The youth walked up and down Eastern Parkway and Ocean Parkway on Shabbos and Chaggim looking for their own shiduchim, without a middleman (or woman) telling them what they want in a mate. I remember all of my frum friends eating Wrigley’s gum, life savers, and tootsie rolls. Life was uncomplicated before the haimishe food industry told us that we could not buy salt, sugar and water without a few hechsharim. It was a great time to go on a date before everyone became shomer.
Hellavaresponse Heshy.. well said
Lakewood and Square may appear impressive–from the outside looking in. Thank your lucky stars you were born Modern Orthodox.
I suppose you also think the kollel system and Meah Shearim are also a stroke of genius. Who needs MO moderation when you can have UO zealotry and fanaticism?
Best post yet heshy and it truly shows another side of you. After reading your site for the last few months, and being very entertained, I’m not sure I could have predicted this post. Obviously ur multifaceted and I apreciate the deep side you have to you. Good job keep it up
its called pandering.
People try this u might enjoy it
I loved it but still very unprofessional
Akeres Habayis Hotline
General No. 951-262-3570
Brooklyn No. 718-475-9426
Monsey No. 845-364-7533
Lakewood No. 732-415-9780
For wives and mothers.
“Listen and enjoy!”
I do not have anything against those who choose to be more Machmir and go the extra mile, but I think they are forgetting the key element of Judaism claiming that we aren’t supposed to judge others harshly. We are all Jews, and part of our beauty is how despite our different backgrounds there is still a sense of unity among us. However, I start to question this unity when as an Orthodox Jewish girl I see these people who are perhaps more “religious” than I am judge myself and others for things which are quite honestly between the individual and G-d Himself, things that do not affect anybody else. I guess the name of the Yeshiva studied at and how much more “Frum” a person can be compared to his or her neighbor is more important than treating fellow Jews with respect and accepting that everybody is an individual and that no person can comprehend another’s own religious strifes, battles, and levels fairly; only G-d can do that. I guess all these Yeshivas forgot to add that lesson into their “syllabi”.
Actually nothing you do is just between you and Hashem.
There is such a thing in Torah as communal responsibility and because all of our souls are really one, every time you mess up you screw me over too! I don’t condone condescending negative judgmental behavior but your “my own business” argument is inherently flawed.
Furthermore, I don’t know what you do that you are “judged” for but alot of people (innocently or not-so-innocently) do things which are against Halacha, against the Torah, and against HASHEM (and therefore self destructive) and then hit the ground running with rationalizations and false logics. Obviously we have to say something about this.
So judging a girl for not wearing stockings which is CLEARLY NOT halacha and just an extra machmir step people take is okay because it hurts other peoples’ souls.
I did not say that. I said the “between me and Hashem” argument is false.
http://kissmeimshomer.wordpress.com/
there u r again mr feivel going on again with ur were all connected thing. dont forget. I am me. You are you.
kissmeimshomer, couldn’t agree more.
Ripley
” Life was uncomplicated before the haimishe food industry told us that we could not buy salt, sugar and water without a few hechsharim. ”
First off noone says you need a hecher for these products. Ask any rav.
Second, my greatgrandfather was the rav in Portsmouth, VA 60 years ago and my grrat aunt went to college following this approach.
She would have pancakes in the cafeteria every morning because “what could be wrong with a pancake?”
That is, until she saw the chef grease the griddle with lard!
Lesson learned
she ate pancakes cause she didnt care about kosher.
And what’s wrong with pancakes if they are made with kosher ingredients and utensils?
if you read the story it was made with lard. even if you want to be ols style kosher, you cant go to mcdonalds and order french fries because the ingrefients are technically kosher.
I read it. I just don’t see where your comment is coming from.
Never mind. Not that important.
they are kosher
Heshy, this is the prime time of your life to put away hundreds of thousands of dollars so you have a nest egg to pay for your kids’ yeshiva tuition.
This comment sounds like it belongs on one of the myriad tuition posts out there. Besides, saving hundreds of thousands requires earning more than that!
it’s easy to love the dayschool movement when you don’t actually have to pay for dayschool
That’s for sure!
I have been putting away money since I was 16, but it’s to provide for a cabin in the middle of nowhere when they start throwing Jews out of America.
The “full blown Chassidishe Shtetl in the middle of New York State” you celebrate is a product of the welfare state these parasites enrich themselves on, and hardly symbolic of what it means to be a Jew. The novelty of it all may excite you, but the reality is that the utopian shetetl is built on a house of cards.
Reading through the first part, i was about to respond to the kashrus-nonsense until i read your response. I couldnt have said it better myself, well done
Is your first compliment of me ever?
nah not ever, but probably close. I liked your “stuff … people like” sereis, especialy the one on yeshivish people, i still send many friends to check it out
The ingredients approach is held by former posek of Lakewood, Rabbi Abadi (kashrut dot org). You can say that you don’t hold like Rabbi Abadi, but you cannot say that it is invalid, nor can you say that his opinions are incorrect or outdated. As Rav Henkin z”l said, the entire kashrut industry rests on the daat yachid of the Rashba that there’s no bitul by non-Jews. You can say that you hold by a different standard, but your statement that it is “less religious” to hold by the majority of the rishonim rather than the daat yachid of the Rashba poses problems of lichvod harav. The problematic ingredients in the “foods that look kosher but turn out not to be” that you refer to are (generally) mevatel according to a majority of rishonim. Further, “mainstream” kashrut organizations occasionally hold that there can be bitul by non-Jews, such as the case of Garelick milk that was fortified with shark’s oil for vitamin D, but it had hashgacha since the ingredient was held to be mevatel.
Likewise, the fact that we hold like R Moshe Feinstein instead of R Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky on gelatin does not make us more frum than past generations, and R Grodzinski was certainly not ch”v wrong, nor is his reasoning outdated by modern food industry practices. It’s just the question of whether inedible things are not food, and therefore their derivatives are kosher, and that question goes back to the gemara.
You can argue that it’s better policy not to allow kosher by ingredients, so that someone can’t go to Subway and order a plain tuna sandwich (as Rabbi Abadi allows), since it reduces mixing with non-Jews. It may very well be better policy, but it’s not better halacha. Both opinions are valid.
I found a note written by Marc Shapiro giving a better summary:
Author: Marc
E-mail: not available
Date: 11/11/2003 8:02:00 AM
Subject: Clarification
Message: I have noticed that many people don’t understand the basic shitah of this website. With your permission, let me clarify something.
Rav Henkin, who together with R. Moshe Feinstein was the leading halakhic authority in the U.S. in the 1950’s and 1960’s, is quoted as saying that the entire basis for the existence of the kashrut organizations is the view of the Rashba. What did he mean by this?
There is a machloket rishonim and the Rashba holds that if a non-Jew, in the normal process of making a food product, adds some non-kosher element, even a very small percentage, then it is not batel. Bittul only works when it falls in by accident. This view is known by those who study Yoreh Deah since it is quoted in the Beit Yosef.
If you look at any of the standard Yoreh Deah books you will find, however, that the halakhah is not in accordance with this Rashba. Rather, any time the goy puts a small amount of treif into the food it is batel, even if it is intentional on his part. There is a famous Noda Biyehudah that discusses this at length. See Mahadura Tinyana, Yoreh Deah no. 56 where he permits a drink that was produced using treif meat in the production but the amount of meat was very small and could not be tasted. He states that it is permissible. There is a Rama who has a teshuvah and states similarly. (I am sure if you describe the Noda Biyehudah’s case to people, even learned ones, and say that there is a contemporary rabbi who permits this, they will mockingly refer to him as a Conservative or Reform rabbi since in their mind no “real” rabbi who knows halakhah could ever permit something that has non-kosher meat in it!)
So now we can understand R. Henkin’s comment. If you go to the kashrut organizations’ websites and speak to them they will tell you that you need the hashgachah because sometimes the runs are not properly cleaned between kosher and non-kosher or milk and meat and some slight amounts of the objectionable ingredient might remain (yet here even Rashba will agree that it’s not a problem!), or they tell you about release agents or that small amounts of ingredients are not listed on the label, etc. etc. The Rashba indeed holds that these last cases are problematic, but the halakhah is not in accordance with the Rashba. The hashgachot have raised the bar and are now operating at a chumra level here as well as in other areas. But the average person has no idea about any of this and has never even heard about the concept of bittul. Even if you explain the concept of bittul to him, his response will be: “OK maybe this is the strict halakhah, but I’m not starving so why should I eat something that we had to rely on bittul for. A person who cares about kashrut won’t eat something that has even the smallest amount of treif.” Since people haven’t been educated about the halakhot, they assume that bittul is a kula to be used in emergency situations, and it is not their fault that they believe this, since this is the view that the kashrut organization hold and publicize.
There is a good article waiting to be written about how in the last thirty years we went from halakhah to chumra when it comes to food issues.
Marc Shapiro
if you learned basic yoreh deah, you would know that (based on geometry) the Treif in the Keilim is more than 1/60
Good job hesh. I am truly impressed with this post. It says that while you know to joke around about stupidities you see, your still honest with yourself. Your not a leftist, rightist or anything like that. Your you. You call a spade a spade. Power to you.
Yasher Koach Heshy! Excellent post.
Remember Thursday night ice skating at MSG?
Then it was Sky Rink in 33rd St.
What about Grossinger’s
Hesh, I disagree with your post.
In those days, Modern Orthodox Jews got married because all they were looking for is: “Our personalities click. We have chemistry.”
I dated Modern Orthodox guys and got nowhere. I spoke to them in detail as to why they rejected me. I have a pretty face, am thin, but I don’t resemble a supermodel. I was told on dates (directly to my face): “I am not attracted to you.”
In years prior, there was no need for a woman to be a supermodel.
Likewise, I have many single female friends. Their list of what they are looking for has grown and grown. They insist that their future husband: 1. Be attractive and 2. Have a very good source of income (or have income growth potential) and 3. Be the Life of the Party = PERSONALITY.
A guy with a great source of income but no personality is a loser under the new definition.
Hence, all the singles events in the world will not resolve the “shidduch crisis” because there are WAY MORE LOSERS by definition under the new MODERN ORTHODOX DATING RULES.
I mostly agree with heshy’s mum. the new fanaticism is totally inauthentic. 50 years ago people were secure in their culture, they didn’t have to constantly prove and exhibit their jewishness because they just were jews and they took it forgranted. now that people are inwardly assimilated, outward symbols and being seen by others to be frum are more important. This obsession with lifestyle and consumer symbols is an example of americanization.
tbf public school education was probably very good 60 years ago but these days they’re at least as bad as yeshiva.
I don’t know why I keep commenting on these things. I find that most internet comments make me excessively angry, and lower my opinion of the intelligence of my fellow man, especially my fellow jew (though maybe I just need to never, ever read the comments on VIN or YWN…or assume they are all trolling). Anyway though, Heshy, you are a fascinating guy. I am genuinely impressed. Though I think the first part came off as satire without the need for the rant. Rock on, as the kids say.
It may sound funny, but not everything that isn’t kosher is treif. There is a spectrum.
The Torah is very broad on the subject. Holy men decided to add strictures as they saw fit, not necessarily based on facts or science.
Saudi Muslims seemed to have found a nice loophole to their yichud and negia laws. Do you think this might work? http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/saudi-clerics-advocate-adult-breast-feeding/19504280
Ha! That’s a highly ridiculed position even [especially?] in the Sunni world … even in Saudi.
Instead, feel free to check out the following ULTIMATE loophole to Muslim yichud and negia laws courtesy of Shi’a Islam ;^D …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_Mut%27ah
Please keep in mind that the definition of “temporary” is spelled out in a legally binding contract — and can last anywhere from JUST MINUTES to 99 years. :^O
Hey Wacky Mac and Chocolate Pizza,
I know plenty of Modern Orthodox women who in no way, shape or form resemble supermodels and have gotten married.
This hard lean right has happened in other religious traditions as well. It’s a global trend. I would be interested in hearing an approximation thrown out by those in a place to know when this started with Orthodox Judaism.
I can tell you when it really started up in Islam because my parents lived through the ‘ground zero’ event, if you will: Iran, 1978. :^(
A half century ago, the major Jewish denominations were much closer to each other, and society in general was much more traditional. Even non-religious Jews still largely married within the tribe. It was a different time.
i don’t get it, is the response by heshy and the top part by someone else?