Sent to me via email from an anonymous convert – in response to Awkward Shomer Negiah Moments
I should explain that I am a convert to Judaism for reasons of my own. I am not married, engaged, date, or in it for the men (only for the Man). I have recently been coming out to friends and family about my conversion and observances.
On occasion I do some side work for a friends law firm. It’s a very relaxed atmosphere because he’s my friend and the majority of the lawyers there are also friendly enough. I’m also a rather easy-going person and can talk about politics, sports, and rock-n-roll (a virtue that I highly value and think some frum girls I know could benefit from). Since I’ve recently integrated the stricter side of being shomer the following dawned on me. When a Jewish man finds out the shiksa he’s been eying converts to Judaism is it a turn-off or turn-on?
I always get assigned to one particular lawyer who is secretly orthodox. He’s not married, he doesn’t talk about girls , and he doesn’t wear his yarmulke. Though I once spied him wearing one while eating, a black velvet, no.6. I also once breeched the religion question and was met with a very rude stare and never brought up the subject again. Besides the religious stare down he’s really a great guy (tall too) and if I wasn’t a nice shomer negiah girl, I’d of tapped that real quick!! But we’ve never flirted with one another and I’ve never felt uncomfortable around him. So I thought he would be the last person I would be worrying about telling, so I thought.
Being that we were in a work environment I thought I’d invite my friend and the lawyer to lunch and casually bring up the subject. Well it casually came up and I swear the poor man’s eyes blazed over red. It was like G*D took his shiksa, boiled her and stamped her parve. He didn’t say a word outside of business for the rest of the day. I felt so guilty when I realized that he too might be shomer and that I might be part of his daily opportunity to get close to a girl, a dirty girl none the less. With that I thought it was over, until my friend called me into work.
With the door and glass enclosed conference room’s blinds open I could feel the tension emanating from within as I got closer. I sat down and started taking dictation when he broke out, are you kosher? Shabbos observant? Orthodox? After answering his questions he didn’t say anything and we went back to work. Then it began. Sitting across from one another I felt his foot knock into mine. Okay, accident. As I’m walking into a meeting among the boys, he’s adjusting himself “man-style” in his seat. You know, the casual spreading of the legs and sinking further back in the chair. Hmmm? I’m filing and he by chance needs the box on top of the cabinet. Reaching over me so nonchalant like, ever so close but enough for me to feel the vibe. Am I being marked? “What’s for lunch?” I’ve just been tagged.
I am so confused by this. I was never an “easy-girl” but I cannot say I’m not a women of the world in the Biblical sense. I know what’s going on and I’m loving it! It’s morphed into a master/mistress, no-touch, no-eye contact, volatile sexual tension, with great conversation, and it’s hot. Who would have thought? Tell me, is this trait of male dominance inherent in all Jewish men? Should I give into this?
P.S. I AM NOT “frum submissive” from craigslist.
Freaky.
In before, “OY PICTURE IS NOT TZNIOT!!!!”
The picture is way more tznius than all the broom closet escapades I found online
So Heshy, you GIS with safe search on or off?
Guest Poster, I’ll never have that experience but the way you wrote it was good.
wow, I’ve never read a more self-indulgent post in my life
WTF?
And why would someone end off by saying they’re not some random person on Craiglist.
that was hott..
Intersting post. If she didn’t mention her conversion, I would have guessed she was a Bais Yaakov tease.
To the author: While your situation sounds tempting, always remember one thing: Don’t shit where you eat.
There is something about having that tension around. It makes it exciting and kindof unpredictable.
Oh and bythway, I`m loving the new layout.
Phil I love your comments
That’s so mean. You’re really giving the poor guy too much to handle.
Congratulations. You just found your future husband.
He’s just messing with you. The dude asked you about your level of observance and then thought it OK to start playing footsie. If he really wanted something more than a little fun to make the workday more interesting, he’d ask you out and try to get to know you. If you cross the line with him you will regret it. Phil is totally right about not shitting where you eat.
Chillul hashem again….untznius!
“If I wasn’t a nice shomer negiah girl, I’d of tapped that real quick!!”
Haha Classic line! I hope she pounds it.
why is everyone in the story secretly frum??
the girl mid-conversion i can semi-understand.
but don’t most ppl in america wearing velvet black kippahs wear them to work also?
but don’t most ppl in America wearing velvet black kippahs wear them to work also?
There are many workplaces where wearing a kippah is simply not done (for example, pretty much any law firm outside of NYC). I don’t wear my kippah at work, and never have work it at work outside of Israel (however, obviously, for the 8 or so years that I worked in Israel, I always wore my kippah).
So, Heshy, is this author a convert and by Orthodox standards or is the author in the process or converted in another movement, in which case, the author is not a convert and should not be converted. What is with all these converts and pre-converts sleeping around and wanting to sleep around? It makes me sick.
Eh. This is not really so strange. I find that frum men looking for play are always interested in the shiksas first, non-frum second. This is simply because they are often misled to believe that all non-Jewish women are loose.
Additionally, I feel the need to alert men to the fact that ‘adjustment’ is not acceptable in the workplace or on a date. WE GET IT. you have junk, it moves, you are a manly man, you need to mave your junk frequently.
Save it for after the wedding.
Michal bas Avraham,
Is there anything that doesnt piss you off? Anything you are not angry about? Any Jews you dont disapprove of?
s there anything that doesn’t piss you off? Anything you are not angry about? Any Jews you don’t disapprove of?
Michal, Congratulations!!!! Now we know that you are a real Jew 🙂
I agree with Michal
The author is in the process of converting – and all these converts are sleeping around because suppressing basic sexual needs is not something everyone can deal with right away.
So, Heshy please don’t call the post a convert’s point of view, please, call it wannabe gyoress. If they can’t deal with keeping their skirt down, then they shouldn’t be converting, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO CONVERT.
Seriously, no wonders why all these other country’s don’t take American conversions seriously.
Great a new stereotype that converts are loose 😛
Michal I don’t mind if they become more strict here in the US regarding conversions honestly but hopefully only after mine is done JK
Did I say I was sleeping with him? I admit there is a feeling of want, but aren’t I human? Did I say I was flirting with him? If you had clearly read it before reacting to it, I never said I was flirting back. But we all know that No-Play gets you More-Play (and maybe a husband?). So, maybe I did not make myself clear in with my last question, it should have read “Should I give into the temptation of flirting back?”
Either way I know the answer to that already, but I like Phil’s response best. Thanks Phil for being a straight shooter.
As for those who question my Ortodox conversion, I take it very seriously. My reaction to your comments would only be reflected by the airless opaque bubble that you surround yourself with, so I’ll save my words for a better mitzvah.
Michal where are all these girls who cant keep their skirts down – send em my way!
Michal – So, Heshy please don’t call the post a convert’s point of view, please, call it wannabe gyoress. If they can’t deal with keeping their skirt down, then they shouldn’t be converting, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
This is quite interesting. Which halachot are required to be observed by a potential ger immediately upon deciding to convert? From this conversation, I gather that abstention from sexual activity is required. Is there anything else? For example, do they need to immediately begin observing rules of kashrut? And if immediacy is required, how can they possibly know all the rules at that time before even starting to learn about them???
Yeah, Phil may be a redneck but he aint machmerim like some.
Way I figure it “dont shit where you eat” is a rule to live by.
To the author: I’m not commenting on the content of what you wrote, as that has been sufficiently addressed above; I would just like so say that you have an excellent writing style. I must say that I was thoroughly held captivated by the story. Honestly, it could’ve been told/written a different way and been the same basic story, just nowhere near as good. I don’t know if you currently engage in any type of part-time writing, but I think maybe you should.
Mark,
The problem is that a girl goes to synagogue for like 3 months and she starts getting it in her head like she’s already Jewish. They say things like, “I’ve been keeping Shabbos and kosher for THREE months, I’m practically Jewish! It’s such a problem that I can’t fee the men I sleep with because of bishul akum.”
Author:
You closed with, “Tell me, is this trait of male dominance inherent in all Jewish men? Should I give into this?” So, how do you think people would take it. Besides which, Phil is on point, you shouldn’t shit where you eat.
Mark,
I reiterate, I’m not doing it for the men.
As converts not born into Judaism, we are not obligated to follow halakha. We are not even obligated to follow the Ten Commandment. We are looked upon to follow the Seven Noahide Rules. In the end, it’s be a good person and when you get to heaven you’ll stand closer to G*D.
As someone that is looking to finalize their orthodox conversion, excuse the expression, but you gotta be in it to win it. When my life and beliefs came together I chose to intergrate halakha into my life slowly and appreciate its nuances before finally deciding to finalize.
As far as sex, I’m not obligated to abstain. The harder part of shomer negiah (no pun intended) was a breeze. It’s the less than four cubit spaces and handshakes that kill me. There’s a dating crisis even outside of Judaism if you choose to be picky and given the options, I can hold out for the right man. But after meeting certain personalities and criticism I see I’m going to have some stark competition even when I finalize my conversion.
My main concern is not this particular story, but the concept in general. For example, I became friendly with a young man and somehow we got to the point of making out in the backseat of his car. Thinking back, I am horrified. I never wouldve believed that I could be capable of such a crime! In any case, it was the atmosphere that pulled us to do it, and we need to be careful of the tone we set in relationships.
Author,
EXCUSE ME?!? When you convert to Judaism, you’re as obligated as a born Jew, actually, more so. Why don’t you ask your conversion rabbi if it’s ok for you to sleep with the guy at work… see what he says. Better yet, have him read this post. If there’s nothing wrong with your attitude and behavior then it shouldn’t be a problem.
*Respirar*
I am not a convert born into Judaism. I am not a Baal Teshuva.
Halakha does not pertain to the non-Jew. I am a non-Jew seeking for conversion.
Very nice if non-Jew seeking conversion does follow law. Non-Jew seeking conversion not obligated to follow law.
Non-Jew seeking conversion, piously observes Sabbath and Holidays. Non-Jew seeking conversion still Shabbos Goy.
Non-Jew seeking conversion scrub, and scrub, and scrub and boil kitchen, pots, pans, knives, forks, spoons ’til fingers bleed. Non-Jew seeking conversion and kitchen, still not kosher.
Non-Jew-Lady seeking conversion kisses Jew-Man. Shame on Jew-Man.
I, the Non-Jew seeking conversion am not Jewish. Non-Jew seeking conversion is not obligated by the Yoke of Judaism until the last strands of hair is consumed by the living, flowing waters of the MIKVAH.
After Mikvah, completely different scenario.
… And as far as asking my Rabbi, who do you think reminds me that I’m not obligated. I’m supposed to feel these things out now, get it out of my system. I’d scare off my Rabbi if I came to him with a glazed-over, holy-roller sheen. What kind of a Jew would I make if I didn’t have questions or concerns?
Sara Davis, Good for you. You’ve now absolved yourself by writting it out, owning it, and sharing it with the international community that is FrumSatire.net. You can now call it a vague memory.
Author – Sara Davis, Good for you. You’ve now absolved yourself by writing it out, owning it, and sharing it with the international community that is FrumSatire.net. You can now call it a vague memory.
Nope. That’s more like how Catholicism works, but not quite the way Judaism works.
Mark, I threw that one in for Michal, but thanks for pointing it out.
Author,
Nu, you’re going to sleep around until you convert?
Why do you lie in here and say that you are a convert when you are in fact just a candidate?
I hope you don’t think you’re almost ready for conversion.
Personally, I was shomer when I started my conversion and haven’t touched a man in three years.
I see here looking this again you say that you are in it for the MAN. Well, actually, you don’t have to become Jewish for Hashem. I knew I was supposed to convert. However, you seem to want to convert for the men without having one in mind. (Sidenote note, Hashem doesn’t have a gender).
Another thing, how serious are you about becoming a part of the Jewish people by trying to cause a Jewish man to stumble and responding, “oh well, I don’t have to care about the Jewish Peoplehood. I’m a shiksa.”
So, stay a shiksa. Aren’t you familiar with the Noahide laws? What’s wrong with them? You can be a noahide and sleep around and eat cheeseburger. Although, something tells me you eat tofu and rice and uber healthy stuff like that.
Just think… if you’re Jewish every year for the rest of your life… scrubbing down the house. Don’t think you can just hire a Spanish girl to do it, they won’t be thorough enough and you’ll have to redo it, anyway.
You can be a noachide and sleep around
What about #4?
Mark — Yes, I’m in close violation of no.4, but I’m getting shtupped while eating a cheeseburger. Who am I to talk.
I would love to follow through on this discourse, but it’s lost it’s flavor.
“haven’t touched a man in three years.”
NOW the problem is clear!
If Phil were not already married, these two would have so much to talk about on a date what with both of em having issues with people who arent white and all…
Chris_B,
It’s not like men don’t want me. I have chosen to abstain until marriage. I believe it’s the right way to do things. You guys are just horny and out of control.
“It’s not like men don’t want me. I have chosen to abstain until marriage. I believe it’s the right way to do things.”
So get married already if men want you. Marriage is the correct state for adults. Maybe the physical intimacy will do something for the anger issues.
“You guys are just horny and out of control.”
As they say on the internets: “LOLWHUT?” Us guys here or men in general? Your future husband wont be perfect (what man is?) but barring mental or physical defects, he will be a guy just like the rest of us in this regard but hopefully he’ll treat you really well.
michal, you should try abstaining from voicing your demented thoughts and just sit pretty. Bees don’t like bitter honey.
big cheers to chris_b and to author. I agree w/Phil re: what not to do where you eat. I really enjoyed this post.
Yenta,
I live to tell you my opinions.
Chris B,
I don’t like anyone, that’s why I’m not married.
Thank you for the bigger mitzvah, praying for you!
“I don’t like anyone”
That much is clear marriage related or not.
Chris B,
Very funny. I just don’t feel drawn to any guys enough to want to spend the rest of my life with them. I do like people. Just because I don’t like hypocrisy….
HAHAHAHAHAHA. “Just because I don’t like hypocrisy….”, damn that’s funny.HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Hmm, yes, Michal, you bring so much hatred to the table…. really, relax a little, stop shitting in everyone’s cheerios, we KNOW you hate all other converts, potential converts, and any Jew who does not have a solid European pedigree, at least back to the exile. Do you ever have a kind word for anyone?
Michal – Just because I don’t like hypocrisy…
The thing is, what you define as “hypocrisy” might be “real life”. In the end, all of us, in every religion or creed, make various choices in life that will appear to be hypocritical from another persons point of view. A wise person learns that such is life, and deals with it.
EEEwwwww…Boys are gross and they are only for throwing rocks at and kicking soundly in the shins.
dennis Prager, who is openly occasional and selective in his religious observance, said something great about hypocrisy; at least you err from a HIGHER standard. You could go with a lower standard and ensure you will always own up to it. HKBH might give you points for not “sanctioning” what you find errant.
The underlying joke is that Michal is a moderator for a online Orthodox converion group. Which on occasion sends out a message stating that we are not allowed to “out” people by sharing things from other blogs. Everytime I read it I wonder if they’re referring to Michal.
This is really silly. The almost willful misinterpretation of the various parties’ stances crosses multiple fat glow-in-the-dark lines I painted on the field of discourse.
I think that the spirit of ahavas yisrael needs to be kicked up a notch. Nu? And giving a ger a hard time is bad too.
Rentsy,
She’s not a ger. A conversion candidate is not the same thing as a convert.
Learnedshiksa,
I don’t think you’re on my group. I think you must be on the big group. That sounds like their schtick that they post once a month. However, if you are on my group, let me know so I can delete you.
If you think I’m bad, have fun with their outspoken moderator.
Incidentally, shiksa, my group doesn’t have an official privacy policy, other than use common sense. We haven’t had any problems. We only have 41 women who get along beautifully.
Another thing about this post…
Those of you that jump on Reform and Conservative converts, where are you for this?
I have Reform and Conservative converts who aren’t trying to jump their co-workers.
Wow, there’s a lot of “hating” on this thread….
In my humble opinion, I don’t think she did anything wrong…I thought she was just “shomer” flirting. But the earlier posts are right, if he was really interested, he would have asked her out. Author, I would be professional with this man unless you get to know each other and sincerely develop feelings.
and of course, I wish you the best with your conversion:)