I have been meaning to discuss the subject of Kiruv organizations bribing people to become religious by taking them on vacation or simply paying them to come to class. Hat Tip to Off the Derech for discussing a long winded discussion taking place on Modern Orthoprax blog for getting me to finally state my opinions and have a little fun at the same time.
From my point of view kiruv organizations all pretty much have the same agenda, they have the altruistic side of making more Jews into orthodox Jews, and they seek to raise their numbers so they can in turn pay for more programs to get more Jews to become religious. Seems like a prety simple concept to me – some of these organizations obviously have power on the agenda and money on the agenda, but it basically boils down to making people religious.
Mr Orthoprax has a ethics guidelines that he wishes Kiruv organizations would follow. You can click on the link to read his original list – mine partially makes fun of but is still serious.
Freedom of Speech
Hey as long as you believe in what I am saying we give you freedom of speech – seriously I have never witnessed non-freedom of speech, just because you say it doesn’t mean anyone will be listening.
Honesty about motives
We want to make you religious so you donate your money to us and we can make other people religious to do the same. What possible motives could there be besides for world domination and money? It only comes down to Aish, Chabad and the OU battling it out.
No brainwashing
You have got to be kidding me, the whole point of kiruv is to brainwash, by taking this away you might as well just tell all of the kiruv programs to stop running. How else would you get someone to throw out all of their secular music, use their Hebrew name and switch out of public school after a free ten day trip to Argentina?
Without brainwashing you can kiss all of the BT seminaries and yeshivas good bye. Without brainwashing you would have to remove all of the flaming BT’s from society and I wouldn’t have anyone to make fun of. Kiruv without brainwashing is not kiruv at all.
Respect for other peoples right to have other beliefs
You have the right to believe whatever you want, as long as your beliefs change after your free trip to seminary.
No mockery
Who mocks? Oh you mean when I state my view and I am wrong no matter what I say. Like when I say Shabbat you correct me and say its wrong and I have to say shabbos.
Not in your face
Personally I love having free chanukah menorahs and little honey sticks shover in my face. Although the whole lulav shoved in the face kind of sucks.
Fair Play
Do you mean Kiruv organizations have to work together? Do you mean Chabad and Aish will hold hands and sing koombaya? Do you mean that Kiruv organizations have to let other kiruv organizations even Jews for Jesus live in peace?
It will never happen
I almost feel that some people go into kiruv for the fights they are bound to have when another organization realizes that the city is a gold mine for kiruv. Just look at Dallas its one big fault line with a bunch of organizations vying for control.
Everyone has an agenda, shoot I have an agenda, I want to meet a wife and become rich and famous, but do people really need to reveal their agendas? It happens to be that bashing other groups is quite horrible but the Kiruv world is known for pitting its people against one another. I met this kid in Dallas who was complaining about a lack of Jewish kids his age and I told him to hit up this class given at the chabad for young people – he immediately responded that he would never attend a chabad event.
I was appalled of course, but I then realized that the people who were mekariv him definitely drilled in the evils of chabad and therefore it would take years to reverse the brainwashing.
Bribing
On a last note I have been curious what people felt about the new practice of bribing college kids with cash if they come to a class for the whole semester. This kind of reminds me of those age old tactics of giving kids money if they put on tefillin every day.
Does bribing kids differ from paying people to learn in kollel – besides for the brainwashing tactic.
Make the photo smaller. just drag it from the corner. the kitten is overlapping the ads.
I’m all for brainwashing, as long as you keep it on the spin cycle for an hour and a half, it’s all good. Seriously though, if it’s not the kiruv organisations then it would be the cristian missionaries, so what would you rather?
Ok I don’t know if you wanted any positive answers to the last question but I think it makes sense. I worked my way through college and I only considered one of those classes (didn’t end up doing it for other reasons…) because the stipend made it worth the hours I’d have to take off work.
And while kiruv orgs going head-to-head is awful and I’ve also heard that it happens, I have to say I was pretty surprised when I worked for one to see the cooperation I got from other orgs in NYC for running events, etc. I’ve heard everyone talking about the war between kiruv orgs but I’ve never seen it firsthand. Your BT friend who bashes Chabad is very likely to just be doing that to sound frummer or something… lots of BTs have a bad habit of making up negative opinions because if you’re contrary people think you must know a whole lot about the subject. I don’t know you should be so quick to assume he got the idea from his kiruv organization.
Chabad never calls other organizations or groups evil. It looks down at them (with exception of Yekkes and Sephardim) and claims they “don’t get it” (which is true — ilu yadativ, hayisiv), but doesn’t employ the tactics other organizations employ.
Brainwashing implies exactly what you described. You show somebody nice warm community, tell them how Torah will make them good businessmen and lawyers, sit around bonfire holding hands and playing on guitar — and, bam!, they are converted.
What brainwashing is not, is sitting down with someone and learning.
All this kvetching ignores the idea that a person should use their own mind when making decisions. That is, if you’re busy using your brain no one can take it to wash it. Sure Aish and the others have an agenda. But you wouldn’t buy a car without researching the options, you wouldn’t buy a house without an inspection and you wouldn’t marry someone without getting to know them first (other than chasidim). So why would you simply accept Aish’s explanation for everything at face value wihtout learning about it yourself?
If Aish has learned to prey on idiots then they’re just imitating the successful business model provided by used car salesmen and liberal politicians worldwide.
I dont know if this applies 100%
but it seems to me that this should also be part of the conversation
I have just finished reading this informative and enlightening book.
In my mind this is an excellent volume and a must read for anyone who grew up religious, is religious today, or in fact for anyone Jewish.
This is a much deeper work then Dr Haym Soloveitchik’s, which can be found here http://www.lookstein.org/links/orthodoxy.htm. There are so many parts of this book that are so telling and explain so much about the Hardeisation of American Jewry. Particularly,
“So powerful has this trend become that the old maxim, Tovah Torah im derech eretz, which means that Jewish learning and observance should be integrated with a positive attitude toward and activity in the world that we inhabit, has become increasingly ignored. In its place, the maxim of, vehegadita yomam va leila, one should mediate on and be engaged in Torah night and day, has taken over and become interpreted as the dominant recipe for ideal Jewish observance and life.”
It seems that today so many have taken leave of what is true, real and sustainable, for who will support all the hyperfrum, and replaced it with a false observance, a hyper observance, that makes those who are most cloistered into ideal Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Complete title:
Sliding to the Right: The Contest for the Future of American Jewish Orthodoxy
It is difficult to imagine discussing Kiruv without looking at the entire picture.
Hardei-ism is Doomed without massive influxes of money. One constant way to do that is with Kiruv
everyone who goes to a class or a weekend or a free trip knows the agenda ( show me one secular person who isn’t suspicious of religious people’s motives!) the real issue is that many of those people are convinced that they will outsmart the system – they will get the incentive without falling for the agenda. on the other hand, many of them who attend really have questions about Judaism and g-d and religion and the incentive or the bribe is just a way to make it more interesting, appealing – and less geeky – to learn about this stuff!
second of all no one is being bribed to become religious, they are being bribed or given an incentive to come listen. what they do with what they hear or learn is their business. I wont deny that there is definitely an element of greed and corruption in the kiruv world (just like everywhere else!), but not all kiruv professionals want to “trick” innocent college students into become religious. some of them are just looking an opportunity to share their knowledge and offer an alternative worldview to a segment of the population who hasn’t been exposed to it.
I have a question. How ethical is it to take advantage of these pay-to-learn programs when you’re already frum?
A friend of mine went on a so-called “leadership trip” which in fact was a kiruv retreat in disguise. I know of another very similar one a few weeks ago. it bothers me a little bit that Jews are tricking people into this and it seems a bit dishonest. However at the end of the day why does it really bother you how these organizations lead people to doing the right thing? Would it bother you if I paid my friend $1000 not to kill someone, or not to rob a house?
i don’t know of any first hand stories regarding this topic, but one thing that i do know, as i have heard it from many bt, is the feeling of having been decieved, by having totaly rosy picture regarding the warm and accepting nature of the frum community painted for them, no i am not advocating pulicizing our ‘warts’, however, it would be very helpful to be up front and honest with them regarding their second class status which they will be taking on, regardless of how much wealth etc. which they may have, the day that they become frum, i have heard too much hurt in many bt voices, complaining about ‘frum institutional discrimination’, and how they have been abandoned by those who ‘brain washed’ them, once they bought the party line.
sorry for the seriousness, i just had to vent.
FB,
If you’re becoming frum for the people than it’s not for you. It should be about Hashem, the Torah, and the Rebbe. Finished. Stop.
Everything that doesn’t represent those things is not ratzon haelyon. Our flaws don’t become Yiddishkeit’s flaws. We are frum despite, not because of our flaws.
About the rebbe?
who is he, what does he have to do with it
it should be ONLY about you and the choices an individual is willing/able to make
The Rebbe is Moshe Rabbeinu.
It’s not about you. It’s not about the frum community. It’s not about anything but Hashem. That’s Judaism. Everything else is a distraction.
Hmmmm
Hashem is perfect by definition, has been since before time began and will be long into the future. Hashem does not need our worship or our prayers or any frumkeit. None of these help or make Hashem more perfect since that is not possible.
Emunah is for us for each person as an individual. We must pray, we must strive for more perfection to be more like Hashem and to get closer to Hashem.
Making moshe rabeinu into an object of your faith is exactly what the torah wanted to avoid and is why moshe’s burial place is not known. the torah wanted to make sure that moshe was not made into a deity.
Waaaaah… Waaaaaah… Snag alert! Snag alert!
How do you know that Hashem doesn’t need anything? Perhaps Hashem created a need for Himself to want something just like He created a Desire to create the world and Wisdom to create the worlds with?
Also, it doesn’t matter whether Hashem needs something or not. What matters is that He desires something — namely, dwelling in this world. And by doing mitzvos, we are doing Hashem a favor — by creating dwelling place in this world and causing Him pleasure.
Making moshe rabeinu into an object of your faith is exactly what the torah wanted to avoid
Really? So, what does “Veaminu b’Hashem u’Moishe avdoi” mean? Everything we know about Hashem’s Will came from Moishe Rabbeinu — so, of course we have to believe in him being true.
I can think of dozens of reason to become or not become frum – in fact that may be a post in itself.
I wonder how much flack I would get if I wrote such a thing?
Interesting. I don’t have any first-hand knowladge of kiruv orginizations, but one of the “rules” caught my eye. “Respect for other peoples right to have other beliefs.” I know you didn’t come up with it, but is the original author really serious? When I was a kid, my conception of “other beleifs” was something like this: “We’re right, everyone else is wrong. As such, their beleifs are laughable at best. Given that these are laughable beliefs, no one could sincerely hold these beleifs, so these people are either stupid, faking, or shallow.” When I later came to realize that other people ARE sincere about their beleifs, I asked one of my rabbeim what happens after death to a sincere adherent of another religion, who tries to live a Godly life as he understands it. His answer was, “Why do you care?”
Arthur,
See this page for more info.
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2770/jewish/The-Head.htm
Not a deity – that’s certainly true. Rather, the key to unlocking our potential.
“I wonder how much flack I would get if I wrote such a thing?”
Gil Student on Hirhurim blog actually did a bunch of posts on just that topic. He asked sent the question to all sorts of people, reform, conservative, orthodox.. and asked them that question. There were some pretty good answers too.
HH: Concerning the ethics of being frum and taking from these programs:
I’ve been there and seen the full spectrum. Look, there are some places that will kick you out (if you can even get in the door) if you even know what the concept of Moshe Kibel Torah misinai is. Mostly these are the super basic programs you’d be bored with anyhow because you don’t need to be convinced of what you already believe.
Then there are other places that are happy to just have you as part of the group. These are ones I like because I can take what I want (sometimes learn some stuff, sometimes a good refresher), and I can simultaneously be a control for people. They see a normal frum guy, and honestly, they rely often on me for the brainwashing alert (“Do most people really do X?”), because as far as certain groups are concerned, there’s no other way of doing things but the way they do it, and that’s what I most don’t like about some of these places.
Aish: I’ve personally gotten plenty of money from them, not because I wasn’t frum, but because (according to the Rabbi I talk with, maybe it’s a lie, I don’t know) they have a quota of frum people allowed in given programs. As long as they have, say, a 10:1 frei:frum ratio, they don’t mind you tagging along and getting all the benefits.
Chabad: They don’t usually give money for you to do things (with some exceptions), but honestly, if you’re frum and you eat at Chabad for shabbat, are you “taking” unethically? More or less than when you stay by someone for shabbat? For most cases, it doesn’t make a difference to them, they’re happy to have anyone. It’s not always about the kiruv.
Gil Student at Hirhurim rocks. I love well-done, well-cited research.
I don’t consider the OU as involved in kiruv as Aish or Chabad can be.
SF2K1, it’s funny (scary, really) that the ratio in your paragraph on Aish is articulated as frei:frum. Frei, of course, means free. Does that mean that to be frum is to be oppressed? That’s a rhetorical question.
I wouldn’t lump all followers of a given group into the same category. If I invite (partial Lubab)someone for Shabbos, does that mean that I’m after their money or trying to brainwash them?
That being said, most rabbis are in it for both the mitzvah and the money, that is what they have been brought up to do for a living. Some just make it alot more obvious than others. Does that make them any worse than other working people?
The turf wars are what really piss me off, they are very obvious in communities such as Dallas. Everything is based on who stepping on who’s toes, even the Chabad guys won’t go into each other’s turf without being invited. Almost sounds like gang warfare.
I grew up in a typical traditional frum/ultra home in brooklyn, and had my share of questions being shut down by my rebbe’s. when I finally made it to “the Mir”, and was able to do some soul searching on my own, i actually went to Discovery, a week-long program from AISH. (they actually took us on a very cool tour under the Kosel, for free)
I went, with my full penguin-dress attire, and they let me enroll. They encourage everyone to ask as many questions as possible, so I obliged. At first they responded, but like half ways into the first day, and my questions, I think, were getting too complicated, some guy walks in, walks over to me and calls me out. Says, “its fine if you come, but please dont ask any question.”
12 years later i am still carrying a grudge. If AISH wont answer my basic question, and dont feel that is more important to keep your own frum, but rather more important to convince others, are there any true philosophical answers to my question? Or does it really boil to to feeling? a sense of right? a sense of belonging or being part of a larger picture, to give some meaning to your life?
I dont know, but ever since then, I have gone to many Gateway seminars, etc, and still feel very ambivalent. Who knows, maybe one day i will find the answers, maybe not. Or live a life of Orthopraxy, with all its glory.
Discovery — you started off with the wrong organizations. When an organization’s name means “fire”, you know it’s going to be all about emotions.
Now, if only there was an organization whose name meant “Intellect”… Wait a second…
Discovery,
If your questions weren’t appropriate for the forum then I don’t blame them for asking you to stop. They spend a lot of money and a lot of time designing programs that will be effective in gearing people towards a life of observance. If you come into the program and make it impossible to fulfill their goals because you have questions that are above the level of the rest of the group you are damaging the program.
Seems like you need to find a Rav that is more willing to work with you in regards to your questions on a one to one basis. If your current Rav isn’t answering your questions then he’s not right for you.
Discovery / Texgator,
Aish should be the one held reponsible for not hiring an rabbi competent enough to answer questions. If they were beyond the scope of the program, he should have told you so after answering them.
These sort of “discovery” weekends do sound a bit on the “cultish” side, I’m more in favor of the Chabad approach of inviting people to participate in a “normal” setting.
Maybe I’m just biased because that’s what I saw growing up, but it seems to make a lot more sense to have people deal with each other one on one than to have them all grouped together for “mass / cookie cutter conversions”, where people might be shy about asking questions or where people are on different levels such as this case.
The big question is now that an organization mekareved somebody — did it connect him to Hashem, or to zombie-like fulfillment of routine and belonging to a certain community? If the rabbi doesn’t answer questions, it seems to me that he doesn’t want Judaism that is internalized (i.e., understood), but Judaism which is impressed on someone.
Certainly, better this than nothing, but then, don’t be surprised when others (who do in a more pnimiyusdike way) say “feh”.
“Aish should be the one held reponsible for not hiring an rabbi competent enough to answer questions. ”
No you are assuming that the Rabbi wasn’t competent. But that’s not necessarily, nor likely, the case. It was clearly an issue of Discovery making it impossible for them to conduct their program. That’s not fair to the people running the program, or the people that signed up for the program. You shouldn’t have one person interfering with everyone else’s experience. Clearly his questions would be much better answered in a individual manner, not as part of a group.
As for Chabad’s method of programming, there are some advantages, to be sure, but I’ve found some of the exact same issues. The mix of backgrounds of the people involved can make for a frustrating, unproductive event.
Discovery- what’s your question that no one has answered?
You see, its not as if the guy tried telling me, “now is not teh right place” or “if you want, I would be more then happy to help you after the class.” it was more like, “hey, we let you come here, but we dont cater to your “type.” Sorry, but that gave me the impression, and not to bash AISH, that “hey, if you are naive, lost, or clueless, we can help you, but if you have 15 years of Haredi yeshiva studies under your belt, and actually learn some Gemareh Toisfes on your own, well we cant help you with your hashkafa questions.”
And Texgator, i know this might sound crazy to you but if I, a practicing supposedly Haredi guy, asks MY rabbi’s my questions, I will be shunned by them. I cant have my rabbi/ruv look at me, and think oh “here goes that apikores again” or “who cares what he has to say” or “my kids, or anyone’s kids shouldn’t go play with his kids.” It’s a very delicate balance, almost like being gay, in the closet (I think).
Texgator,
Exactly why I favor the one on one / hands on method over these types of discovery weekends, no matter who runs them. Each individual has their own needs as well as what might make them click or what might turn them off. A good Rabbi will pick up them immediately and relate to each person based on his judgement.
When you get a rabbi or rabbis following a certain prescripted “dialogue”, there always running a chance of it backfiring as in this case.
Anyway, I’m no kiruv specialist, nor am I claiming to be, it just seems like common sense. It’s one thing to have people gathered for a lecture, but if it’s supposed to be interactive, they have to be prepared to answer whatever the potential BT wants to know, otherwise they risk turning them away for good.
Dicovery,
Your rav should be a person that you can trust to ask anything you want, in complete confidetiality.
I’ve debated issues with rabbis that would theoretically make me a Chabad heretic, they were patient enough to engage me and the last thing as I was worried about was them blabbing what I said to anyone.
If you can’t trust you rav/rabbi, I suggest you find someone more competent.
Discovery
I fthe palce you live or the people you have access to are not codusive to real faith
faith is always a choice, if you can not address how you feel openly and honestly with those around IMHO you may need to find a different community
what they are pushing aint yehadut!!
s(b.) : I know it’s rhetorical, but it shouldn’t be “scary”. It’s not a “new” thing to label people who aren’t observant as “frei” (the word is yiddish, but the concept is as old as Torah). What is free? Free of the “yoke of Torah” (as explicitly mentioned in Tanach, Mishneh, etc). The other word choices might be non-observant:observant, not-religious:religious, but honestly, what gets across the idea better for a Jewish context than frei:frum?
An entertaining note by Artscroll on the word Apikorus – ???????? (forget for a moment that it’s really from Greek Epicureanism) mentioned how it shares it’s root with Hefker – ???? because the person has given up (i.e. freed themselves of) Torah.
1st of all as they say if you like it its chinuch,if you don’t its brainwashing.
2nd Chabd does not to kiruv, for kiruv means to bring in. The Rebbe challenged us to uforatzta, to go out. bring yiddishkite OUT to every single Jew. To help them increase their mitzvahs and their relationshiop with G-d. Now where I come from no matter how frum you are you can always reinvegorate your relationship with G-d. So that comes to the 3rd point. You are not stealing if you are frum and go to Chabad for a Shabbos dinner. Those meals are there for everyone to better connect, including the shluchim themselves. I could go on, but this is enough for now.
SF2K1,
Thanks. I guess I don’t look at what I observe as any sort of yoke. (I will admit I am not the most observant person to walk this earth, too.) If I thought it were yokey or something without which I’d be free, I’d want no part of it. I dig linguistics, though. Thank you for educating.
s(b.):
On the other hand, we love obligation (we give thanks for it in the morning brachas, right?)/yokes/mitzvos, so it’s a good thing! 🙂
Good Shabbos
discovery – i dont think youre really being fair. you wouldnt go to a beginner english class and discuss shakespeare, and if you did and the teacher asked you to stop – you would understand why.
your questions may have seemed basic or understandable by the beginners in your class, but i doubt they were. i dont think ffb`s realize the extent of how beginner beginners really are. i know that a lot of the questions i ask today `sound` similar to some of the questions i asked when i started out but theyre completely not – they are on a completely different level based on completely different experiences.
maybe the guy who asked you to stop didnt do it nicely, but cant you understand why he would ask you to stop? your issues are different than the ones his establishment deals with. a foot doctor doesnt go to a dental school to ask his questions – evnethough they are both in the medical field
Discovery,
I was kicked out of MJE West (but not East) for the same reason. I was told I was too advanced for their classes.
There really isn’t anything in between basics for those who don’t know their aleph from their bet and hard core pouring over then Talmud all day long, especially for women. I got to a point where I started studying on my own.
Talking about BT’s, I heard this great story on Shabbos.
Someone I know was traveling in Florida, and was looking for a place to daven Mincha/Maariv, so he located a Chabad House near Daytona Beach, in Ormond Beach FL. He pulls up, and sees this huge magnificent complex, not the typical hole-in-the-wall Chabad House. Especially in such a far out area, which doesn’t really have a big frum community.
So he goes in, and sees this building, chandeliers, grounds, gorgeous facilities, day care center, rooms, mikveh, state of the art facility, and he sees this guy with a beard, so he asks him “are you the rabbi” and he says, “that’s what they call me.” So my buddy asks what’s going on here, so he said after davening he will show him around.
So when they finish Mincha/Maariv, the rabbi, Rabbi Pinchus Ezagui, takes him into the regular Shabbos Shul, You should see pics online, the Aron Kodesh, the doors, the windows, its magnificent.
So he finally asks the ruv, “where did all this come from?” so he tells him as follows:
Fifteen years ago, he came out here, like the typical Shliach, with nothing, and started doing kiruv. Lately, he was working with this woman, and he got her to keep shabbos, Kosher, Taharis Hamishpacha, etc, but one thing she didn’t want. She was very hesitant in covering her hair. The Ruv would ask her many times, and she refused. Until he convinced her that they make these great Shaitles, of which you can barely see the difference. So she finally put one on.
The next day at work, she was walking in the hallway, and someone from behind yells “hey you, with the Shaitle.” She turns around and this guy started asking her what a frum lady is doing in Ormond Beach, so she tells him all about Rabbi Ezagui, and the impression he has had on her.
Rabbi Ezagui was sitting in his office and in walks this guy, and starts asking him a million questions, and “how many kids do you have to start a day school?” so he says about sixty. So this guy says, “done deal”. The ruv looks at him and says “ok.” The guy asks him “you know who I am?,” the ruv says “no.” “My name is Morris Esformes, from Chicago.” The ruv said, “sorry but I never heard of you.” “Do you know this rabbi?” and he rattles off like five Chabad rabbis in Chicago, and the fifth one he recognized. “call him, and he will tell you” So he walks out of his office.
To make a long story short, the next week he got a check in the mail of $100,000.00. A month later, Morris comes by and shakes Rabbi Ezagui’s hand. He feels a paper in it. Morris asks him, “you ever held a million dollars in you hand?” The building is less then a year old, and you can see the dedication online. This Morris, owns a couple of Nursing homes in the area, where this woman works, and comes down there, to Florida, once a month, and has a place to daven now, when he comes down there.
The rest is history.
So they found another sucker.
Doesn’t sound like he’s much of a sucker to me, I wouldn’t mind being able to give away a million here and there.
Yes kiruv organizations sure do brainwashing! they wash the brains clean of all the dirt and scum of misconceptions that have been absorbed due to lack of knowledge regarding ‘truth’ of G-d & meaning of religion. They have a product to sell – ‘Truth’. Whats wrong with that? You use your ‘free will’ to choose wether you want to accept it or not. And whats wrong with incentives? Do you also have a problem when retailers use marketing techniques & give free offers to attract you to their store? You have a choice to go or not.
Wether kiruv org. have clashes sometimes, we are not supposed to accept negative information especially if we dont have firsthand facts, a concept called ‘Lashon Hora’. Boy would the secular world be lucky to have such concepts. Life is so much richer and peaceful that way!
And for arguments sake, even if they do, people are human, which means they can make mistakes, we have to separate religion and behavior. Just because someone is frum and has ‘Truth’ doesnt mean they are perfect. A diamond dealer who is nasty, isn’t behaving properly, that doesnt take away any value of his diamonds!
I truly recommend to try some brainwashing – you just might like it!