On this episode of Up Close, we hear directly from a woman “chained” in her marriage and whose husband is now marrying someone else. Lonna Kin has been trying for ten years to get a Jewish divorce, or get, from her now-ex-husband. She separated from her husband, (Israel) Meir Kin, in January 2005, and their civil divorce was finalized in May 2007. Yet Meir Kin has yet to give her the Jewish divorce document that would free her from her Jewish marriage and allow her to perhaps remarry and move on with her life — even though as this interview airs he is scheduled to marry another woman. Lonna is known as an agunah, or “chained woman,” stuck in her Jewish marriage. She shares her story, for the first time, in this episode of Up Close.
Because of the importance of the topic, we are making the complete interview with Lonna Kin available online in the special extended webcast of the episode above.
And then, what do we mean when speak about “evil?” Why do we act immorally, and why do some of us do so more than others? Author Andrew Michael Flescher offers some answers to these questions in his new book Moral Evil and on this episode of Up Close.
Watch highlights from the episode in the video above, listen to the complete audio of this episode at the very top of this post, or subscribe to our weekly audio podcast at http://feeds.feedburner.com/tjcupclose or on iTunes at https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/tjcs-up-close/id807702211.
Painful. The interview I mean.
Seems like the whole process is skewed to the advantage of the man. Aren’t we equal in the eyes of Hashem? That’s the problem with most of Orthodoxy, the grey beards pass judgment. Just wondering, what is Rabbi Kunin’s (Chabad LA) position on this?
This woman is held hostage and has to pay $0.5M to acquire a “get.” It’s ridiculous.
Women get the better deal in divorce, so why are you complaining.
Well….perhaps that may be true for some divorces…..but that’s irrelevant in this case. Don’t you agree?
Men write all the laws.
Only men are allowed to learn the laws.
Women can’t be members of the Court.
Women can’t be judges.
Women can barely be trusted to prepare food properly
Strictly speaking adultery is death for a woman, not so much for a man.
Women have no right to divorce.
Men have total power over divorce even though they can be coerced if enough men (and only men) think they’re being just a little too stubborn
The frumpies are dead-set against pre-nups that would give women anything resembling a right to divorce.
Agunot can’t remarry.
Men are completely free to leave their exes hanging and get married again.
Yeah, there’s a pattern here. And it’s why Toyreh-True Judaism needs a big heaping dose of feminism so that its menschkeit can approach its yiddishkeit.
Feminism KILLED marriage. A man want’s his wife to look up to him, and then he loves her. Today everything you say get’s challenged. You’re an idiot if you get married. And also, I think G-d is a little smarter then you. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean you have to knock the Torah.
Breathe, get some oxygen in your system.
Feminism is a blessing that you don’t see yet. Wake up.
Ah, so marriages where both parties have civil rights and are treated as human beings “killed” the institution. Gotcha. Marriage can only survive as a form of slavery. Great advertisement.
(Been married to the same feminist for 20 years. Somehow my belief that I am not inherently superior because I have a shmekele hasn’t ruined it)
Basically Oxygen is saying there is no feminism in the Torah.
Do a Google on “the story of queen Vashti kooloytoyra”, and “This is how the Torah sees it kooloytoyra”
Who mentioned anything about a shmekele? Don’t remember seeing this in any posts nor do I hear any man ever bring it into any discussion. I don’t think like this. In fact the only ones who do are the feminists focusing on it as if it’s the reason for their ‘woes’. Makes me think that penis envy actually exists however much they deny it.
Then you really haven’t been paying attention, have you? Not to Judaism certainly.
That question was aimed at you, not Judaism.
No, child. Judaism is obsessed with The Cawk. If you have The Cawk you are the Lord of Creation. If you don’t you have the same rights as a child, a slave or the mentally deficient. If you have The Cawk your voice can be heard in Court. You can learn Torah. If you don’t you have the right to shut the eff up while people with one decide your fate. And it’s a sin for you to even peek at the books. In fact, your whole life is supposed to revolve around the concerns of The Cawk – your equivalent of Torah is to make sure you don’t even inadvertently excite The Cawk because then its owner might spill his seed which is the worst tragedy imaginable.
A. Nuran, yep…you nailed that one ….sadly, this is the very reason why my wife feels like a second citizen in Shul. Each Kiddush on Shabbat, the men are encouraged to Farbrengen while the women are expected to sit by the wayside as peripheral entities throwing away the paper plates and storing the Kiddush leftovers (OK, maybe a little exaggeration here).
Torah was given to control the beast (yes, the one that resides primarily in the male specimen), and I do believe the Torah perfect. A true scholar must have compassion and use the Torah in line with common sense. This type of chacham is with whom G-D entrusted his gift. The bastards who have taken the Torah and used it to their advantage, without compassion and without common sense, have effectively turned the Torah upside down. They will get the worst hell, period. Chazal teach us that when they use the torah inappropriately the torah becomes their death potion, in this world and the world to come.
Some self proclaimed rabbis have chosen to ignore this chazal and somehow see fit even to to be justifying it– internally at least. You can’t pick and choose, G-D said it’s the whole package or else.. They have implanted this bitter seed that G-D says he will blot off the face of the earth.
I hope you merit to see your revenge.
If it was written by men then how can it be perfect?
“I do believe the Torah perfect.” A perfect set of outdated laws on slavery and genocide maybe..
Slavery was rampant all over the world. It was the way of life, business as usual. The Torah set laws on how to treat slaves. Slaves were severely tortured all over the world by people who didn’t follow the Torah.
Genocide? Esau and his decedents were hell bent on killing Jacob and Israel from day one. The Torah believes in self defense and preemptive strikes in case of existential threats.
In response to your second comment below, there is no way a Perfect Being created a Perfect document which gives laws (which are grossly irrelevant now) regarding slavery and genocide, as well as a slew of other Bronze Age superstitions and borrowed origin myths.
The Torah is ageless. It’s laws are for all generations. Slavery existed and needed to be dealt with. The fact that there is no slavery, levirate marriages, Temple etc. nowadays, doesn’t mean the other laws are void. It’s laws are strictly abided by many hard working college educated class in the orthodox community, in our day, and throughout the generations. Here is not the appropriate forum for this debate, and that’s besides the fact that I hate pissing matches in general, so I will stop commenting.
Regarding your last comment, before you coward out, in the same sentence you said the Torah is ageless and then talked about laws that it had to deal with which are no longer relevant (just like the collection of myths is today). Just because college graduates follow it, means nothing. I’m sure many Muslim extremists and Mormons go to college too, and follow their own outdated throw back laws. You proved my point, now put your tail between your legs and get lost.
A. Nuran, yep…you nailed that one ….sadly, this is the very reason why my wife feels like a second citizen in Shul. Each Kiddush on Shabbat, the men are encouraged to Farbrengen while the women are expected to sit by the wayside as peripheral entities throwing away the paper plates and storing the Kiddush leftovers (OK, maybe a little exaggeration here).
Torah was given to control the beast (yes, the one that resides primarily in the male specimen), and I do believe the Torah perfect. A true scholar must have compassion and use the Torah in line with common sense. This type of chacham is with whom G-D entrusted his gift. The bastards who have taken the Torah and used it to their advantage, without compassion and without common sense, have effectively turned the Torah upside down. They will get the worst hell, period. Chazal teach us that when they use the torah inappropriately the torah becomes their death potion, in this world and the world to come.
Some self proclaimed rabbis have chosen to ignore this chazal and somehow see fit even to to be justifying it– internally at least. You can’t pick and choose, G-D said it’s the whole package or else.. They have implanted this bitter seed that G-D says he will blot off the face of the earth.
I hope you merit to see your revenge.
If it was written by men then how can it be perfect?
“I do believe the Torah perfect.” A perfect set of outdated laws on slavery and genocide maybe..
Slavery was rampant all over the world. It was the way of life, business as usual. The Torah set laws on how to treat slaves. Slaves were severely tortured all over the world by people who didn’t follow the Torah.
Genocide? Esau and his decedents were hell bent on killing Jacob and Israel from day one. The Torah believes in self defense and preemptive strikes in case of existential threats.
In response to your second comment below, there is no way a Perfect Being created a Perfect document which gives laws (which are grossly irrelevant now) regarding slavery and genocide, as well as a slew of other Bronze Age superstitions and borrowed origin myths.
The Torah is ageless. It’s laws are for all generations. Slavery existed and needed to be dealt with. The fact that there is no slavery, levirate marriages, Temple etc. nowadays, doesn’t mean the other laws are void. It’s laws are strictly abided by many hard working college educated class in the orthodox community, in our day, and throughout the generations. Here is not the appropriate forum for this debate, and that’s besides the fact that I hate pissing matches in general, so I will stop commenting.
Regarding your last comment, before you coward out, in the same sentence you said the Torah is ageless and then talked about laws that it had to deal with which are no longer relevant (just like the collection of myths is today). Just because college graduates follow it, means nothing. I’m sure many Muslim extremists and Mormons go to college too, and follow their own outdated throw back laws. You proved my point, now put your tail between your legs and get lost.
Actually, women can be judges.
Women have to know the laws to be a judge.
We do not need “feminism” we need learn the laws and not bide by the hearsay that some men say is “the law”. We question, we study, and we can certainly take charge of the kashrus of our kitchens.
Painful. Orthodox Judaism, I mean.
This ex husband is a classic example why some women have to resort to hiring unsavory characters to handle the problem for them.
Y’know, it’s a lot easier for a widow to remarry. Just sayin’
Evil person.
Why doesn’t Lonna just go on with her life, find a good guy and drop this tribal nonsense once. & for all
Because she sees value in her religion and culture and her relationship with her god. She doesn’t want her children to be mamzers. She doesn’t want to be labelled an adulteress. She would rather see her religion change enough to allow for common decency than abandon it entirely.
These are not necessarily bad things. But I think she’s been way too patient.
IIRC, if she has children with a Gentile, the kids aren’t Mamzerim. Then again, she sees value in her religion.
If a woman really values her freedom more then anything else then why don’t they accept a get and not pursue any money. I’m many women would not have a problem if they agree to just walk away. There are two sides to every story and say the word “agunah” and this immediately makes people think of him as a monster and the woman an angel. Truth is men are much worse off in a divorce but that’s ok according to these people who think they have higher moral values. Why should he have to continue to pay her alimony when she can work? Why should he ripped off? For this reason I think marriage itself is wrong. Marriage should be done away with. It’s just a business deal dressed up as being holy. I will never get married.
The hermit lifestyle suits you. I don’t want to get married, but annoying family members just don’t stop bugging you.
I’m far from leading a hermit lifestyle. One can enjoy life and company and not be married. If family members are bugging you then they only care about themselves and not you. Leave home and be independant. Good luck.
Marriage is a sham. Thank God, if he or she even exists, its dying out and less people are choosing to go down that path. Wake up men, she doesn’t love you it’s your money she wants. Now women can work they still want your money. Their attitude is “what’s mine is mine, what’s yours is mine”. Here’s the true essence about why we have this problem of agunah.
I’m sorry that your experience with women has been so awful.
I’m also sorry that you’ve got a horrible case of MRA with Stage III misogyny.
(Married twenty years to an absolutely wonderful woman. Could not ask for a better friend or wife and thank God every day for my good fortune)
Even if I met an angel and we were destined to be together I still wouldn’t marry. Threat of divorce and how it works against men is a yoke. Just like religion is a yoke and must be thrown off then so to here. Even if my wife was perfect she’d still be the cause, whether her fault or not, and the marriage will not be able to work. My freedom is more important then anything in the world.
Facts speak for for themselves. Funny how one can’t have a case against women without being labelled a misogynist. Yet vice versa is ok. I’ve been through all this before with many people and all this name calling doesn’t make you correct. It isn’t going to change the facts either. And I haven’t ever been married either. I see the way how this world works.
Seems like Abe did not even bother to listen to her interview. Lonna is being asked to pay $0.5M to the bearded wonder for the get. Get it?
I do not care. Probably what it cost him in the civil divorce. Who cares? Marriage isn’t holy its about money. People wouldn’t flicker an eyelid if a man has to pay a woman so why not vice versa. Marriage is dying.
Marriage is suppose to be lovely, but when it comes to divorce it’s only about money and that is very ugly.
That’s where the law is supposed to step in and make it fair. Fact remains that everyday men get ripped off around the world for millions, lose their house, kids and have to pay alimony then along comes one woman who might have to part with some money and everyone is in an uproar. Not only that but while married he is treated like a wallet providing then after marriage she can still demand more and come off looking like a saint. What about hakoras hatov towards men? I cannot bring myself to pity her when marriage is a sham and the law is an a-ss. Would be great if things were ideal and different but fact is its not. I will not be made to feel guilty for feeling this way. My freedom and values comes first.
Values…what values…? I guess your loneliness and cash have their value….so enjoy them as they will become your legacy.
Abe, I think you would greatly enjoy living in Japan.
Probably not. Japanese women are increasingly deciding that being married is a really poor choice, especially since it means being a lifelong servant to his parents.
No one should be a slave to anyone. Not a woman to a man and neither a man to a woman. A man slaving away so that his wife can spend his money is also wrong. A woman thinking she is entitled to be kept is wrong. In a marriage and certainly after a divorce.
Men are supposedly ATM machines, and women are supposedly play things.
What I find astounding here, as in the Gittel KOTLER Dodelson fake agunah case is that these women come from lives of Rabbinic and financial entitlement, and misuse the sufferings of others (true agunot) for their own selfish purposes. They play the court game because they have the financial means to. They play the bais din game because they have the corrupt rabbinic family power to. Then, in the rare case such as here where they play the game from all angles and then LOSE, they play the victim.
And who the hell is that other woman that married him?
Someone with no ability to learn from the mistakes of others
Just as an aside, an agunah is expected to sit shivah should her recalcitrant ex pre-decease her, and he vice-versa should she pre-decease him. Another totally logical rabbinical law!
I thought, even rabbinicaly, Shiva is only required for parents.
No, for seven relatives as well: ie. mother, father, brother, sister, son, daughter, husband, wife. Not sure about half-sibling. For a parent only, one has to observe Shiva, plus 11 months kaddish, mourning/certain restrictions. For other relatives, as above, one weeks Shiva, included in 30 days mourning/restrictions. This is the orthodox way, at least. Not sure about reform.
I happen to know Lonna and her ex and her ex’s family. She is full of shit. THe Get is sitting in Beth Din and they won’t give it to her? Ask Lonna how many times she was married before??? She is a known gold digger who marries ppl to blackmail them for money! BETH DIN won’t allow her to get remarried not her ex!
I don’t know the details, but at this point have my doubts because of all the false aguna cases out there. Feminism surely ruined the world.
Of course, because feminism causes agunos.
http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2012/08/advertisements-for-lost-husbands-agunos.html
I stand by what I said.
By all means, stuff your ears up.
Whoa. What’s your problem?
No, the aguna story in Monsey with the guy who disappeared is much sadder and more tragic.
I was looking at houses near Monsey and was warned not to move too close to Monsey because it is fool of those “Orthodox Jews, a bunch of crooks they are.” lol
Think you mean ‘full’. Freudian slip, maybe?
lol yep. Happends anytime I talk about people who believe in talking donkeys and snakes, 6 day creation myths and young earth theory.
The Talmud says in the beginning of Chaylek (Sanhedrin) that the people who don’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, they will not come back to life, so since after you die you will never come back, my suggestion is that you should enjoy life as much as possible, and you should rape every pretty girl you see, and you should stuff your face with snails with garlic sauce.
Why is it that people who believe in the resurrection of the dead are the ones who would rape everyone they see?
I didn’t say every one, I said “every pretty girl”.
lmao, same reason the cars w. peace and love bumper stickers at the one’s the cut you off. People are full of shit
If an agunah (or mosorevet get) takes up with a Jewish man, publicly, wouldn’t the beit din apply much more serious pressure to the husband to divorce her or find a way to dissolve the marriage and make it non-existent?
I don’t understand why women play the publicity card and the sympathy card in these cases. If the husband or the law had enough sympathy, they would not be in this situation. Be the bad girl and beat the system. Your piety is getting you nowhere.